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Arianne
05-25-2013, 12:16 PM
So I've got this scene where the MC is sitting in the passenger seat, and EG (Evil Guy) is driving. For reasons I won't go into MC needs to get EG out of the car (and keep in mind that the car is moving, driving down a small side street with no other traffic).

I wanted to have the MC shove the EG out through the driver's window. Is this possible? Would it require a lot of force? I'm picturing having the MC throw himself into the driver's seat after he does it and get the car under control.

Googling has only got me a bunch of stories where a passenger jumps out of a car rather than does something to a driver. (And for obvious reasons I'm not keen to try this in person:evil)

And a related car question: if you pull the handbrake when someone is driving (slowly, probably something like 20 or 30 mph), what would happen? Would the car stop or skid wildly or what?

Thanks!!

cornflake
05-25-2013, 12:45 PM
So I've got this scene where the MC is sitting in the passenger seat, and EG (Evil Guy) is driving. For reasons I won't go into MC needs to get EG out of the car (and keep in mind that the car is moving, driving down a small side street with no other traffic).

I wanted to have the MC shove the EG out through the driver's window. Is this possible? Would it require a lot of force? I'm picturing having the MC throw himself into the driver's seat after he does it and get the car under control.

Googling has only got me a bunch of stories where a passenger jumps out of a car rather than does something to a driver. (And for obvious reasons I'm not keen to try this in person:evil)

And a related car question: if you pull the handbrake when someone is driving (slowly, probably something like 20 or 30 mph), what would happen? Would the car stop or skid wildly or what?

Thanks!!

Unless the EG is, I'm not being facetious, a dwarf or something, I don't think that's physically possible.

The window is above the seat by such a margin, with the main weight of a person in the seat, that I just can't see someone getting the leverage to be able to do that, especially to a living person who'd react and resist. Even a body I don't think you could lever out of the driver's seat from the passenger without a serious amount of work. Think about also the legs are under the wheel, etc., etc. - all while the car is moving? Maybe someone will come along and say it'd work but got me as to how.

As to the latter question, in my experience, what happens if the brake is engaged while driving is zilch, save perhaps a squealy sound and a burny smell after a bit. You may go slower but given the number of times I've driven with one on, heh....

Muppster
05-25-2013, 02:29 PM
MC needs to get EG out of the car (and keep in mind that the car is moving, driving down a small side street with no other traffic).

What kind of car? Some Jeeps don't have doors, might be possible. Through a window isn't really. Is EG wearing a seatbelt? I think it's probably going to result in a fight and a mess. EG has the steering wheel to hold onto, to avoid getting pushed out, MC probably doesn't have much leverage from their side of the car. I would guess pushing them out would be more like manhandling them out, and in the process the steering wheel, brakes/gas/clutch(if it's that kind of car) is going to get involved, and the car will hit something, or stop, or both. What immediately comes to mind is the truck fight in Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Arc?), though driving position in a truck is more conducive to jumping/throwing out than a car.


I'm picturing having the MC throw himself into the driver's seat after he does it and get the car under control.

Have you ever tried getting out of the car via the opposite door?? When you've ended up parked too close to something to open the right door. It's a bit of a contortion act to get in/out of the driver's seat, worse if there's a gear stick. And that's with a stationary car. I'd be impressed if you could do that while the car is moving and not do Bad Things [tm] by using the steering wheel etc to lever yourself in/out. Also, without a foot on the gas, the car is going to stop.


if you pull the handbrake when someone is driving (slowly, probably something like 20 or 30 mph), what would happen?

It will slow down, the car won't thank you, handling will depend a bit on what you're doing with the steering wheel/accelerator at the same time, which is likely to be unhelpful if the driver isn't the one applying the handbrake.

Without knowing more details (MC vs EG size/build, reasons for being in the car and not wanting EG there any more, etc...), my first thought is that incapacitation of EG would be more plausible. Something that stops the car (probably crashing, but in a way that doesn't total the car) and lets MC run round and pull them out. Some cars have the keys on the passenger side of the steering column (for ease of conversion between left- and right-hand drive). MC could hoik the keys out of the slot/turn the engine off, and the stall/head-steeringwheel interaction could daze or knock out EG?

Weirdmage
05-25-2013, 02:55 PM
I don't think there's any way you can get a driver out of a moving car that is not cooperating. And even assuming the driver was knocked unconscious by the passenger I don't see a way to do it without loosing control of the car. You'd have to control the steering wheel, hold the door open, and push the driver out. And even assuming you are able to do that, there's the risk of the driver's feet getting stuck either under the pedals or under the dashboard (, and possibly on the steering wheel). AND you'd have to do everything from the driver loses consciousness with your foot on the gas pedal if you don't want the car to stop.

You can of course test the feasability of getting either an uncooperative or "uncounscious" driver out of the car yourself in a car that's standing still. If you get someone to film it you can see how much the steering wheel is effected by what you do, it wouldn't take much movement on the steering wheel for a moving car to go off course and crash.

Quinn_Inuit
05-25-2013, 04:45 PM
Without knowing more details (MC vs EG size/build, reasons for being in the car and not wanting EG there any more, etc...), my first thought is that incapacitation of EG would be more plausible. Something that stops the car (probably crashing, but in a way that doesn't total the car) and lets MC run round and pull them out. Some cars have the keys on the passenger side of the steering column (for ease of conversion between left- and right-hand drive). MC could hoik the keys out of the slot/turn the engine off, and the stall/head-steeringwheel interaction could daze or knock out EG?

I second this suggestion. In the same vein, if there's a pen in the car, palm it, scream "pedestrian" and point to the left front, then jab the pen into EG's throat when he turns away. (This is assuming an American car. Reverse if needed.) If you need some ideas for a pen fight scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFnmq5PPScA

Arianne
05-25-2013, 06:19 PM
MC and EG are of similar build and strength levels. I'd thought of the MC heaving the EG sort of out of his seat and slamming him through the window--this would make the car stop as EG is no longer stepping on the gas so the car would be less likely to crash into things. (But I get that the steering wheel would be in the way, and probably EG would hit MC as well.)

Basically the situation they're in is EG is stealing MC's car, and MC is trying to stop EG stealing the car. Neither of them are wearing seat belts. The scene after the throw-EG-out-of-car scene shows the MC driving somewhere in the car, so the car can't be too damaged in the stop-EG-stealing-my-car process.

I'd thought that pulling the handbrake might make the car stop but apparently not :(

Don't know how feasible the pen-in-the-windpipe scenario would be, but I'm trying to see if I can work something like that in.

Kaarl
05-25-2013, 07:24 PM
MC could hoik the keys out of the slot/turn the engine off, and the stall/head-steeringwheel interaction could daze or knock out EG?


Best way to stop the car IMO. MC could lean over EG, yank the keys out and the bring his/her head up in to the chin of EG. EG could even get a knee in while he/she was leaning over and the MC would push past the pain for the key grasp and reverse head butt.

MC could also lean over and elbow EG in the genitals , grasp the leg he is using on the accelerator under the knee joint and lift (or squeeze) to slow things down. Another elbow to the throat (right after its used on the groin which could be done quite quickly) and Id image EG would be dazed enough for MC to open his door and push him out.

*Edit* Elbow arm and leg grab arm are not the same


As other posters have said a lot of the mechanics of it will depend on the size of the MC/EG and the vehicle (I am thinking of this all occurring in a RHD Sedan and both being of similar size and strength).

DeleyanLee
05-25-2013, 07:50 PM
I'd thought of the MC heaving the EG sort of out of his seat and slamming him through the window

Errr--no. Apparently you've missed all the Mythbuster episodes where they show that the tensile strength of car windows is extremely high. A body hitting them is not enough to really crack it, let alone shatter it (that usually takes something really fast and usually small, like a bullet). A head isn't going to do that. A fist may crack it, but it'll take more force to shatter to get through it.

Now, if the window was open, you don't have a problem, but I wouldn't buy someone being slammed through a closed one at all. Sorry.

Mr. Mask
05-25-2013, 08:20 PM
Kaarl has quite an interesting fight-scene suggestion for you.

Depending on what you want, you might be able to go for something simpler, like the MC slamming the BG's head against the steering wheel once or several times, reaching over and opening the door while they are stunned, then the MC leans against their own door of the car and pushes the BG out by kicking them with both legs.

This would not be advisable or likely to work if the other guy was more skilled than the MC. The BG would have to be quite surprised or unskilled for the steering wheel move to work... some outside distraction would be useful for plausibility (almost runs over a kid crossing the street, and is distracted by that). They'd also have to be stunned enough for the MC to reach over and open the car door.

If the BG is less experienced than the MC, you shouldn't have too much of a problem making this plausible. If the BG is notably more experienced... you'd probably want some luck or outside factors to work in the MC's favour.


One thing I'd like to mention, is in some situations it'd make more sense to kill the BG before pushing the body out of the car. I assume you don't want them killed and dumped, so I've suggested the fastest method I can think of for getting them out of a car.
Just noticed your later post, with more details about the situation. Yeah... you don't really want to kill car-jackers--too much paperwork.

One thing that would change the dynamics of this a lot, is if the carjacker has a gun or a knife.

Arianne
05-25-2013, 08:43 PM
Errr--no. Apparently you've missed all the Mythbuster episodes where they show that the tensile strength of car windows is extremely high. A body hitting them is not enough to really crack it, let alone shatter it (that usually takes something really fast and usually small, like a bullet). A head isn't going to do that. A fist may crack it, but it'll take more force to shatter to get through it.

Now, if the window was open, you don't have a problem, but I wouldn't buy someone being slammed through a closed one at all. Sorry.

Sorry--should have clarified. When I said slammed through the window I was thinking of an open window, not a closed one. It would make a nice visual to slam someone through a closed window though *sigh*

Arianne
05-25-2013, 08:47 PM
Best way to stop the car IMO. MC could lean over EG, yank the keys out and the bring his/her head up in to the chin of EG. EG could even get a knee in while he/she was leaning over and the MC would push past the pain for the key grasp and reverse head butt.

MC could also lean over and elbow EG in the genitals , grasp the leg he is using on the accelerator under the knee joint and lift (or squeeze) to slow things down. Another elbow to the throat (right after its used on the groin which could be done quite quickly) and Id image EG would be dazed enough for MC to open his door and push him out.

*Edit* Elbow arm and leg grab arm are not the same


As other posters have said a lot of the mechanics of it will depend on the size of the MC/EG and the vehicle (I am thinking of this all occurring in a RHD Sedan and both being of similar size and strength).

It looks like a good fight scene:) Depends a lot on the element of surprise though, as Mr. Mask said.

*goes off to reread scene and see what works*

Thanks to everyone for providing advice on this!!

Kaarl
05-25-2013, 09:13 PM
Element of surprise = MC points across EG (at EG's chest height) and says "Look out !" from there, bringing MC's elbow to the promised land of nature's equaliser (aka the genitals) would take a split second.

Hope that helps :D

Mr. Mask
05-25-2013, 10:00 PM
If he has a knife or gun, you'll want some way the MC can be sure they aren't getting themselves killed.

The BG might make a sudden stop to avoid hitting something, drop their weapon and smash chest-first into the steering wheel, for example. Alternatively, you could, if the MC is skilled enough, have them grab the weapon hand, yank it so its stretched toward the MC's side of the car and the BG is unbalanced. Then, immediately mash his head against stuff as if you were playing NES Olympics.


I wouldn't recommend starting with an attack to the groin, or a simple bluff, from a practical perspective. If pain is going to slow or stop your foe, severe head trauma should be sufficient. If it isn't, then head trauma will still stun them.

cornflake
05-25-2013, 10:07 PM
MC and EG are of similar build and strength levels. I'd thought of the MC heaving the EG sort of out of his seat and slamming him through the window--this would make the car stop as EG is no longer stepping on the gas so the car would be less likely to crash into things. (But I get that the steering wheel would be in the way, and probably EG would hit MC as well.)

Basically the situation they're in is EG is stealing MC's car, and MC is trying to stop EG stealing the car. Neither of them are wearing seat belts. The scene after the throw-EG-out-of-car scene shows the MC driving somewhere in the car, so the car can't be too damaged in the stop-EG-stealing-my-car process.

I'd thought that pulling the handbrake might make the car stop but apparently not :(

Don't know how feasible the pen-in-the-windpipe scenario would be, but I'm trying to see if I can work something like that in.

It's not even the swerving; it's the physics of the thing. It's hard to move an adult who doesn't want to be moved; it requires a considerable amount of force applied in the correct places in the correct way. Think about something like arm wrestling.

Then think about sitting in, say, a movie theatre, suddenly turning and trying to lift and toss the person sitting in a seat next to you up over the person next to them. It's just not possible unless there's a huge size/strength dichotomy and even then it'd be complicated if they resisted (and there's the wheel, pedals, dash, to contend with). It's not that easy to move a dang toddler who really doesn't want to be moved and there usually is a huge size/strength differential; natural resistance methods work well.

As for the stopping short so the EG smashes into the steering wheel thing - the MC isn't belted either. Physics is physics. If one person is tossed around when the car stops short, so will the other be.

Attacking the EG may lead to the car accelerating if he had his foot on the gas and steps down. I think attacking him and trying to open the door is the only way I can see it working but think about the different contingencies.

King Neptune
05-25-2013, 10:14 PM
You are writing fiction, so not everyy detail has to be correct and accurate.

A possibility might be to have the MC turn ignition off, lean farther and unlatch door, then MC pushes hard and slides the EG out.

frimble3
05-26-2013, 03:31 AM
Or, make the EG want to stop the car and get out.:evil
Either vomit on the EG's front/lap or, if the MC has a lighter, set his shirt on fire. Yelling "Pedestrian!" and pointing should distract the EG for long enough to get the lighter to the side of his shirt, down near the waist, where he won't notice until it's too late.

"Stop, drop and roll, they teach us in school. So, he stopped, he dropped ... and I rolled!"

Cornelius Gault
05-26-2013, 04:53 AM
I agree with everyone else that just pushing someone through the window would be impossible (unless you were The Terminator).

(I re-read the OP and realized that my scenario below would only work if the Evil Guy was in the passenger seat),

How about having the passenger door damaged, therefore somewhat "open". By executing a sudden left turn, the passenger's body would naturally be thrust toward the door - pure physics - and his body would go flying out through the damaged/loose door.

Perhaps something was hit as the turn was executed, causing a sudden stop - the "flying" could be quite dramatic. For realism, the passenger would not have his seat belt on, but the driver would.

PFmonstar
05-26-2013, 05:07 AM
The emergency break will only put the car in skid to one side. I learned this in high school it will make the car skid but trashes the break line.

cornflake
05-26-2013, 05:55 AM
The emergency break will only put the car in skid to one side. I learned this in high school it will make the car skid but trashes the break line.

Just out of curiosity was this something you were told or something you experienced? Only asking because I've driven with the brake on in more than one type of car and it's never done anything but perhaps slow acceleration and cause the burny smell after a bit. Wondering if it's a different type of car or some other difference or if they were just warning you about something more extreme.

wendymarlowe
05-26-2013, 06:13 AM
You can't take the keys out of most cars unless they're in park, either - the key physically won't come out of the slot. You can override this with a pinhole many models have in the gearshift/center console (the "stick a pencil in the hole" variety), but that's not something you can easily do in a fight.

Kaarl
05-26-2013, 04:59 PM
You can't take the keys out of most cars unless they're in park, either - the key physically won't come out of the slot. You can override this with a pinhole many models have in the gearshift/center console (the "stick a pencil in the hole" variety), but that's not something you can easily do in a fight.


Many new vehicles still allow you to do this (2010 Dodge Ram for example) and if the ignition tumblers are worn then Park or not they can be taken out of most models (but this is a fault , not by design). Perhaps an older model manual transmission would make this easier for people to swallow for the OP if that is the way they'd prefer to go.

Bufty
05-26-2013, 05:08 PM
What kind of car is this? And what exactly is the steal scenario?

How can EG be stealing MC's car if MC is in the car? Is MC just hanging about after parking his car or the like and sees EG get into the car? Did MC leave his keys in the ignition? Did EG drag MC out of the car..? Did...?

Anyway, if it's any kind of saloon car I go with the concensus here that pushing a driver out of the driver's window of a moving car is virtually impossible whether he is inapacitated or not.

Disabling him is your best bet - nice suggestion re the pen in neck.

If the car is just in the process of being stolen there's nothing wrong with a fight even though the car veers of the road - the thief is going to have difficulties controlling the vehicle if some guy is whacking him in the head.

You obviously don't drive.

Kaarl
05-26-2013, 05:21 PM
I wouldn't recommend starting with an attack to the groin, or a simple bluff, from a practical perspective. If pain is going to slow or stop your foe, severe head trauma should be sufficient. If it isn't, then head trauma will still stun them.

True, in so far as it is difficult to land correctly and easy to block in a stand up fight. There is a reason they are banned in martial arts, techniques are taught to avoid them and cups were invented. It hurts like hell, can be fatal and EG is damn sure going to feel it if it lands properly. Which I'm sure it will because the OP wants him out of MC's car :D

Old Hack
05-26-2013, 05:36 PM
And a related car question: if you pull the handbrake when someone is driving (slowly, probably something like 20 or 30 mph), what would happen? Would the car stop or skid wildly or what?

Thanks!!

If you put the handbrake on in a 4WD while it's driving, don't you destroy the gearbox? I know you can't handbrake turn in a 4WD for this reason (the brake actually works through the gearbox).


You can't take the keys out of most cars unless they're in park, either - the key physically won't come out of the slot. You can override this with a pinhole many models have in the gearshift/center console (the "stick a pencil in the hole" variety), but that's not something you can easily do in a fight.

That's true of our Saab (it has to be put into reverse to get the keys out), but it's the only car we've ever had which requires the car to be in a specific gear before the keys can be removed.

Mr. Mask
05-26-2013, 05:51 PM
Either vomit on the EG's front/lap or, if the MC has a lighter, set his shirt on fire. Yelling "Pedestrian!" and pointing should distract the EG for long enough to get the lighter to the side of his shirt, down near the waist, where he won't notice until it's too late.

"Stop, drop and roll, they teach us in school. So, he stopped, he dropped ... and I rolled!" I really wouldn't suggest vomiting attacks. While that would startle them... they'd probably change from carjacker to murderer faster than dying in Super Meat Boy.

Setting them on fire would normally be a great idea. However, pulling it off without setting your car on fire could be difficult. I mean, throwing something flammable on someone and lighting them with a lighter isn't too hard, if they aren't expecting it (though you can inadvertently burn yourself)--but you're likely to get the chemical over your car as well.
Modern clothes are pretty flammable... but it isn't necessarily something you can light on fire with a match or a cigarette lighter without them noticing (there is also the risk they'll panic and stay in your car).


True, in so far as it is difficult to land correctly and easy to block in a stand up fight. There is a reason they are banned in martial arts, techniques are taught to avoid them and cups were invented. It hurts like hell, can be fatal and EG is damn sure going to feel it if it lands properly. Which I'm sure it will because the OP wants him out of MC's car :D Partially, I wonder if it is any easier, or perhaps harder to land while sitting in a car. To effect that strike with your elbow, you'd have to lean over and make your head and neck open to counter-attack. Grabbing the groin would be better for accuracy, damage, and etc., but I think controlling and harming the head would be better still (really hard to fight if you can't see your opponent). Particularly since forward motion should be easier while sitting in a car.

Groin attacks tend to be given a bit much credit. There are a large number of cases of people who functioned after even severe attacks to the groin. Unpleasant Example (read at your risk): One murderous fellow was struck with a crutch (which belonged to a crippled elderly man, no less), and then immediately ran away from the incident, escaping from the crippled man's house. After running at least a block, he collapsed in shock from the pain. Meanwhile, the cripple called the police, telling them he knocked an intruder's balls off. It was an exaggeration... only one testicle had been removed. When the police finally investigated the claim which sounded like a prank call, the man was taken to hospital, and amputation was necessary.

That is an example of a very severe injury, where the subject was very active for at least a minute or two.

cornflake
05-26-2013, 07:22 PM
If you put the handbrake on in a 4WD while it's driving, don't you destroy the gearbox? I know you can't handbrake turn in a 4WD for this reason (the brake actually works through the gearbox).

That's true of our Saab (it has to be put into reverse to get the keys out), but it's the only car we've ever had which requires the car to be in a specific gear before the keys can be removed.

True of a Volvo too; has to be in park. I kind of assumed it was true of all cars but thought people were talking about forcing.

Muppster
05-26-2013, 08:01 PM
True of a Volvo too; has to be in park. I kind of assumed it was true of all cars but thought people were talking about forcing.

You can still turn the engine off, that's what I meant.

King Neptune
05-26-2013, 09:31 PM
I think that Frimble has the right idea. A lighter to the shirt would change the EG's attitude very quickly, and if he is wearing a cotton or polyester shirt an accelerant is not necessary.

Bufty
05-26-2013, 09:50 PM
If you were nicking a car and saw the owner beside you flicking a lighter what would you do?

Exactly.

To me, this whole scenario of the thief and owner sitting next to each other is suspect.




I think that Frimble has the right idea. A lighter to the shirt would change the EG's attitude very quickly, and if he is wearing a cotton or polyester shirt an accelerant is not necessary.

Mr. Mask
05-26-2013, 10:19 PM
He'd need to be fully distracted, to give you time to hit him with a lighter--which I don't know if it would really work. Modern clothes are flammable, but will they really catch fire just from pressing a lighter for a split-second to them?


Largely, I'm not questioning the details of why the car-jacker is sitting next to the MC, possibly unarmed, without a seatbelt. That's up to the author, who so far hasn't asked our opinion on the matter. We've made some comments to that light, so Arianne can work out whether they want to seek advice on that or not.

King Neptune
05-26-2013, 10:53 PM
He'd need to be fully distracted, to give you time to hit him with a lighter--which I don't know if it would really work. Modern clothes are flammable, but will they really catch fire just from pressing a lighter for a split-second to them?


Put fire to a loose bit of cotton sometime. Polyester is almost as flamable, and most other textiles are quite flamable; although wool takes its time.

I picture the MC lighting a cig and swinging his arm toward the driver rather casually, and a second after the MC puts the lighter back into his pocket the driver will see the flames on his chest and the warmth. It would be rather funny.

Bufty
05-26-2013, 11:02 PM
Sometimes the reason it's difficult to find a solution to something is that the scene has not been properly thought out or set up, and backtracking may be more helpful than persisting with something that may be conceptually flawed.

I could well be wrong, but the lack of detail here causes me to suspect the thieving of the car has not been thought through as a scene.


He'd need to be fully distracted, to give you time to hit him with a lighter--which I don't know if it would really work. Modern clothes are flammable, but will they really catch fire just from pressing a lighter for a split-second to them?


Largely, I'm not questioning the details of why the car-jacker is sitting next to the MC, possibly unarmed, without a seatbelt. That's up to the author, who so far hasn't asked our opinion on the matter. We've made some comments to that light, so Arianne can work out whether they want to seek advice on that or not.

WriterTrek
05-26-2013, 11:39 PM
The only thing that comes to mind as potentially possible might be... have the passenger knock him unconscious (probably with a drug of some kind), then grab the wheel and stomp on the brake, pull over to the side of the road, and dump him out of the car.

Otherwise people have brought up the reasons why it wouldn't work.

Cranky1
05-27-2013, 01:01 AM
What if both were wearing seat-belts and the passenger unhooks the seatbelt of the EG, presses their foot down onto the accelerator, and then in a quick moment puts the brake on causing the EG to fly through the front window?

Weirdmage
05-27-2013, 06:48 AM
What if both were wearing seat-belts and the passenger unhooks the seatbelt of the EG, presses their foot down onto the accelerator, and then in a quick moment puts the brake on causing the EG to fly through the front window?

I'm pretty sure it's impossible for the passenger to reach the pedals on the car while wearing a seatbelt. And if both are without seatbelts the driver, who has the steering wheel to hold onto, will always be at an advantage. Especially since the passenger will be having difficulty bracing themselves against the dashboard while stretching/reaching over to the drivers side to do anything that effects the driver.

Cranky1
05-27-2013, 07:05 AM
I'm pretty sure it's impossible for the passenger to reach the pedals on the car while wearing a seatbelt. And if both are without seatbelts the driver, who has the steering wheel to hold onto, will always be at an advantage. Especially since the passenger will be having difficulty bracing themselves against the dashboard while stretching/reaching over to the drivers side to do anything that effects the driver.

You're likely right.

frimble3
05-27-2013, 07:51 AM
What about telling the EG that testicle story, then, when he flinches (somewhere between 'only one testicle' and 'amputation', I'm betting) hit him in the head or in the groin, I'll bet he stops the car.

debirlfan
05-27-2013, 08:05 AM
Here's a possibility that hasn't been brought up.

While car is moving rather slowly, MC reaches over, grabs wheel and rams something. (Yes, it will damage the car, but with luck the car may still run, even if it rattles a bit.) MC will know it's coming and be prepared, bad guy won't - especially if he's somewhat distracted. For added excitement, the air bags can go off in the guy's face. That would be a good time to whack him over the head, poke him in the groin, choke him and/or throw his butt out of the car.

Alternately - the OP might want to consider the car-jacker forcing the MC to drive - which will open up a whole bunch more options.

Mr. Mask
05-27-2013, 10:36 AM
Put fire to a loose bit of cotton sometime. Polyester is almost as flamable, and most other textiles are quite flamable; although wool takes its time.

I picture the MC lighting a cig and swinging his arm toward the driver rather casually, and a second after the MC puts the lighter back into his pocket the driver will see the flames on his chest and the warmth. It would be rather funny. Found a video that compares the two. If the main character knew that he was wearing a cotton shirt, and knew that cotton is as flammable as it is, then that's one of the best plans available: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-Gd5vp1WV4

Lighting him on fire without being shot or stabbed remains a concern, as does if he panicked and stayed in the car or crashed it. Still a workable plan. If the MC is brave against fire, he could work then try my idea of opening the door then kicking the BG out with both legs.



Sometimes the reason it's difficult to find a solution to something is that the scene has not been properly thought out or set up, and backtracking may be more helpful than persisting with something that may be conceptually flawed.

I could well be wrong, but the lack of detail here causes me to suspect the thieving of the car has not been thought through as a scene. Yes, this might be concern as you describe. Arianne should consider that possibility.



The only thing that comes to mind as potentially possible might be... have the passenger knock him unconscious (probably with a drug of some kind), then grab the wheel and stomp on the brake, pull over to the side of the road, and dump him out of the car.

Otherwise people have brought up the reasons why it wouldn't work. Difficult to arrange.

If the MC keeps drugged alcohol or something in his car, for purposes which are hard to imagine not being terrible, the BG could easily indulge and be dealt with when he's in a very groggy, helpless state.

Another way is a breathable chemical; say, chloroform in a rag. This might be a little better than merely starting a punch up, if for some reason the MC has chloroform and a rag he can combine in his inventory without the BG noticing. This would be a terrible idea if the BG was armed.

Third way is a tranquillizer injection. Based off animal tranquillizers... it's better than the chloroform. It's a good way to start the fight, bashing his head against the steering wheel when injecting the tranquillizer into the neck. Even if he'd normally overpower you, the tranquillizer ought to dull his physical attributes, knock him out, or even just kill him before you'd die. Unless he has a knife... then unless the tranq kills him almost immediately, there's a fair chance you'll be severely wounded or dead by the time it kicks in. Him dropping his knife or gun would be a wise idea, before such a thing was attempted.
If the MC was a vet who works at the zoo, having a powerful tranquillizer wouldn't be absurd, either.



What about telling the EG that testicle story, then, when he flinches (somewhere between 'only one testicle' and 'amputation', I'm betting) hit him in the head or in the groin, I'll bet he stops the car. Brilliant plan:roll:!

Actually, that isn't necessarily a bad idea. Obviously, this crook doesn't seem professional--so they might listen to you telling an interesting story. While they're distracted thinking about the story, or reacting to something--that'd be a good time to act.
A simpler form is to ask them a question, where they need to think about how to respond preferably. You're taught to do that before any gun disarms.



Here's a possibility that hasn't been brought up.

While car is moving rather slowly, MC reaches over, grabs wheel and rams something. (Yes, it will damage the car, but with luck the car may still run, even if it rattles a bit.) MC will know it's coming and be prepared, bad guy won't - especially if he's somewhat distracted. For added excitement, the air bags can go off in the guy's face. That would be a good time to whack him over the head, poke him in the groin, choke him and/or throw his butt out of the car.

Alternately - the OP might want to consider the car-jacker forcing the MC to drive - which will open up a whole bunch more options. This is better than my steering wheel-mashing plan. You'd want to try it when he was distracted, and you'd want enough of a crash that he gets a shock from it--but then you can go right into NES Olympics!--that is, "Tap A to make BG kiss the steering wheel!"

Air bags present a situation I'm not sure about. If they're only for the driver (the MC could easily know about his air bags, how easily they're set off, etc.), it might make thing easier for disarming him.

Having the MC be the driver would make a lot more sense in a lot of ways. It gives you some more leeway (don't need to worry about what happens if the BG hits the accelerator), but also means the BG won't be distracted by driving.

cornflake
05-27-2013, 10:44 AM
Here's a possibility that hasn't been brought up.

While car is moving rather slowly, MC reaches over, grabs wheel and rams something. (Yes, it will damage the car, but with luck the car may still run, even if it rattles a bit.) MC will know it's coming and be prepared, bad guy won't - especially if he's somewhat distracted. For added excitement, the air bags can go off in the guy's face. That would be a good time to whack him over the head, poke him in the groin, choke him and/or throw his butt out of the car.

Alternately - the OP might want to consider the car-jacker forcing the MC to drive - which will open up a whole bunch more options.

It'd have to be a really pretty old car for there not to be air bags going off in the passenger's face as well. Same as being prepared for a crash doesn't do that much - and can actually cause more damage.

If they're both unbelted, again, they're both unbelted. Physics will out. If one is thrown around, so will the other be, and it's possible worse if one were attempting to brace himself.

Mr. Mask
05-27-2013, 10:49 AM
The OP pointed out the car would be driving slowly. Trying for a proper car crash would be suicidal.

Weirdmage
05-27-2013, 12:42 PM
The problems with all the suggestions on how to incapacitate the driver is that they're not quick enough. Realistically I find it very implausible that the passenger will be able to do something to the driver before he has the chance to slam on the brakes. And while the driver can brace himself against the steering wheel, even at 30mph the passenger will be thrown forward against the dashboard/windscreen. Especially since his attempts to incapacitate the driver will mean he won't be able to brace himself for a sudden stop.

Mr. Mask
05-27-2013, 01:59 PM
At a high speed, this would be a serious problem--especially if they were wearing a seatbelt and you were not. At a slow speed, depending on how slow, this is still a problem, since you are likely to be thrown and they'll have time to recover more quickly, and punish you accordingly.

If they have a weapon... I question the MC's sanity taking them on. Not to say that's a bad thing.

We are theorizing muchly on the situation, but we really know little. The author might have some very good reasoning for it, after all.

Arianne
05-27-2013, 02:42 PM
We are theorizing muchly on the situation, but we really know little. The author might have some very good reasoning for it, after all.

I hope I do:)

Basically the situation is that the MC has driven his own car somewhere, got out to get something (leaving keys in the lock and the driver's door open, as teenagers do...or grown-ups...). The EG (who at this time is unknown to the MC but later has a part to play in the story) runs up to the car, gets in and starts driving. MC comes rushing up, tugs open the passenger door, jumps in, probably yells something along the lines of "who are you and why are you stealing my car" etc etc, and then has to find a way to get EG out of the car, because well...that's what people tend to do when someone is stealing their car (right????)

Both MC and EG are teenagers, around 18 or 19 ish, similar build/strength.

I like the lighter idea (great visual), but I do need the EG somewhat intact for a later portion of the story. (Plus the MC doesn't smoke and I don't know if a non-smoking kid would be carrying a lighter around "just because"). Also, as someone already mentioned, MC could end up setting fire to his car/himself.

It sounds like MC has to get EG out of the car pretty quick or resign himself to being kidnapped (unless he chooses to jump out of his own car, which is unlikely). I don't really know if the element of surprise works that well as naturally the EG would have some attention focused on MC already (since MC is yelling at him and all).

Mr. Mask
05-27-2013, 02:54 PM
The main fear of setting yourself and your car is on fire is largely if you used some kind of flammable liquid. Or, if the guy panics and stays in the car.
As for damages, as long as he rips his shirt off after getting out of the car, or rolls around on damp ground, he should be fine. Mightn't even have burns, if he's quick enough.
If the MC doesn't smoke, you'd want to have him acquire the lighter somehow, and foreshadow that.


The easy solution, would be that the BG just gets scared and jumps out of the car himself. It doesn't sound like he's too determined to steal this car. If he does this shortly before a hill, you could have a very exciting, scary scene where the MC has to get the car to brake before it crashes.

Does that or a variant of that work for you? I'm having trouble thinking of many other non-violent solutions.

Bufty
05-27-2013, 02:56 PM
...because well...that's what people tend to do when someone is stealing their car (right????)Not exactly.

It all depends upon how and where the theft takes place, and the detail so far still does not ring true to me. It's the jumping into the passenger seat that doesn't seem plausible- I certainly wouldn't atempt that.

And the type of car is still not mentioned.

It's the driver that most folk would go for.

It would not be easy - indeed almost impossible - to open the passenger door and jump into the passenger seat if the car is being driven away - presumably by someone who doesn't want to get caught and therefore not at a walking pace.

If the keys are in the ignition there's not much time for the MC to 'come rushing up'.

Sorry to appear negative but the scenario still doesn't ring true to me.

cornflake
05-27-2013, 03:08 PM
I hope I do:)

Basically the situation is that the MC has driven his own car somewhere, got out to get something (leaving keys in the lock and the driver's door open, as teenagers do...or grown-ups...). The EG (who at this time is unknown to the MC but later has a part to play in the story) runs up to the car, gets in and starts driving. MC comes rushing up, tugs open the passenger door, jumps in, probably yells something along the lines of "who are you and why are you stealing my car" etc etc, and then has to find a way to get EG out of the car, because well...that's what people tend to do when someone is stealing their car (right????)

Both MC and EG are teenagers, around 18 or 19 ish, similar build/strength.

I like the lighter idea (great visual), but I do need the EG somewhat intact for a later portion of the story. (Plus the MC doesn't smoke and I don't know if a non-smoking kid would be carrying a lighter around "just because"). Also, as someone already mentioned, MC could end up setting fire to his car/himself.

It sounds like MC has to get EG out of the car pretty quick or resign himself to being kidnapped (unless he chooses to jump out of his own car, which is unlikely). I don't really know if the element of surprise works that well as naturally the EG would have some attention focused on MC already (since MC is yelling at him and all).

Leaves the keys in the ignition and the door open?

I don't think many people do that but maybe it's the person's own house and he forgot something right by the door or whatever, so I'll go with you.

Then, as someone gets in and drives off, I can see yelling 'hey!!' I can see running after the car. I can see maybe tugging at the driver's side door as it pulls away. I can't see trying to open the passenger door or trying to get in. I can't see it being likely you could even do that if someone is accelerating away - run after, pull the handle, have the door open which is going in the other direction from the momentum of the car, so why would it even stay open for you to do this, and then somehow leap into the seat? While yelling who are you and why're you stealing my car? These would not be the foremost questions on my mind.

I mean people steal cars because they're car thieves or other criminals who want a car. That's who and why. Mostly I think my reaction would be 'hey!!!.... Fuck.' Then I'd find a phone to call the cops.

If I somehow did end up in the passenger's seat of a stolen vehicle with a criminal at the wheel, my plan wouldn't be shoving said criminal out of the car and taking over; it'd be to get the hell out of the car at the first, safest opportunity. I'd be waiting for the person to slow or stop so I could open the door and run off - and find a phone to call the cops.

Mr. Mask
05-27-2013, 03:21 PM
Keys in the ignition is dumb--but I've heard dumber in real life.

Justifying the MC being willing to do that... well, if he was criminally inclined I could imagine this. I'd also imagine them poking a gun or knife in the would-be thief's face when he did catch up, if that were the case. If they aren't criminally inclined... I'd just figure on them being the type of person who is naturally suicidal.

Getting in the passenger's seat is the hard part. Partially, I'm imagining the BG is either on a lot of drugs (driving the car really slowly and not with it enough to drive away fast), or is actually an alien or something similar.
You might be able to have something, if the road around that point is really tricky so you need to slow down. Or if he was slowing down while trying to put on the seatbelt (letting go of it in shock when he realized the MC is climbing into the car).


Of course, if none of those things are meant to apply, I have a lot of trouble working out how to justify the situation.

Arianne
05-27-2013, 03:45 PM
Then, as someone gets in and drives off, I can see yelling 'hey!!' I can see running after the car. I can see maybe tugging at the driver's side door as it pulls away.

The car was parked by the curb (steering wheel is on left hand side of the car), the house the MC runs into when he gets out of the car is to the right (passenger) side of the car, so when EG starts driving away, the MC comes running out of the house on the passenger side of the car.

I can see why people think this is implausible though. I'm thinking of maybe tweaking the scene action before and after and maybe using some other scene to achieve what I wanted to achieve in this car scene. Don't know how it'll work out, but just want to thank everyone for car advice and scene advice!!!

Weirdmage
05-27-2013, 03:51 PM
Basically the situation is that the MC has driven his own car somewhere, got out to get something (leaving keys in the lock and the driver's door open, as teenagers do...or grown-ups...). The EG (who at this time is unknown to the MC but later has a part to play in the story) runs up to the car, gets in and starts driving. MC comes rushing up, tugs open the passenger door, jumps in, probably yells something along the lines of "who are you and why are you stealing my car" etc etc, and then has to find a way to get EG out of the car, because well...that's what people tend to do when someone is stealing their car (right????)

Both MC and EG are teenagers, around 18 or 19 ish, similar build/strength.

I like the lighter idea (great visual), but I do need the EG somewhat intact for a later portion of the story. (Plus the MC doesn't smoke and I don't know if a non-smoking kid would be carrying a lighter around "just because"). Also, as someone already mentioned, MC could end up setting fire to his car/himself.

It sounds like MC has to get EG out of the car pretty quick or resign himself to being kidnapped (unless he chooses to jump out of his own car, which is unlikely). I don't really know if the element of surprise works that well as naturally the EG would have some attention focused on MC already (since MC is yelling at him and all).

This seems overly complicated to me, and I'm talking about the whole situation here. If the purpose of the scene is to introduce the MC to the EG, as it seems from what you wrote, it can be made much easier and more plausible. My suggestion is let the car be locked, and have the EG try to brake in to it. Either by trying to pick the lock or by simply smashing the window. If the MC sees this he'll naturally run towards the EG, and the EG would run away. You'd basically end up in the same place as the complicated scenario; the MC will know the EG is a criminal, and will be able to recognize him later in the story.

cornflake
05-27-2013, 03:53 PM
The car was parked by the curb (steering wheel is on left hand side of the car), the house the MC runs into when he gets out of the car is to the right (passenger) side of the car, so when EG starts driving away, the MC comes running out of the house on the passenger side of the car.

I can see why people think this is implausible though. I'm thinking of maybe tweaking the scene action before and after and maybe using some other scene to achieve what I wanted to achieve in this car scene. Don't know how it'll work out, but just want to thank everyone for car advice and scene advice!!!

Then he doesn't leave the driver's side door open. He just doesn't.

In his own driveway I could maybe see, but parked in the street with the passenger's side to the curb? No one leaves the door open to go into the house. A car coming down the road can take the door off.

Bufty
05-27-2013, 05:06 PM
The driver never leaves his car door open if the car is not parked with his door at the kerb. To do so means the door is sticking out into the street. Anyway, if it's a quiet or residential street the driver's door issue is not material in the credibility of the scene.

It's just not practical to say that when EG starts driving away the MC hears this, turns, realises what's happening, runs out of the house and gets himself alongside the passenger door.

The car will be accelerating away long before MC reaches the kerb.

I think you are right in seeking a different scenario for the initial meeting and friction between your EG and the MC.


The car was parked by the curb (steering wheel is on left hand side of the car), the house the MC runs into when he gets out of the car is to the right (passenger) side of the car, so when EG starts driving away, the MC comes running out of the house on the passenger side of the car.

I can see why people think this is implausible though. I'm thinking of maybe tweaking the scene action before and after and maybe using some other scene to achieve what I wanted to achieve in this car scene. Don't know how it'll work out, but just want to thank everyone for car advice and scene advice!!!

debirlfan
05-28-2013, 06:14 AM
Then he doesn't leave the driver's side door open. He just doesn't.



Not that it really helps the situation, but I suspect that when the OP said the door was open, he meant it was unlocked, not actually open.

Arianne
05-28-2013, 09:56 AM
Not that it really helps the situation, but I suspect that when the OP said the door was open, he meant it was unlocked, not actually open.

She, actually :D

And yes, not open all the way, just maybe not completely shut (like when you don't slam the door hard enough and it's still kind of open)

A couple friends of mine used to do this--park at the curb, run out to buy something and then run back. I used to be paranoid that someone would steal the car, but they just laughed at me.

Bufty
05-28-2013, 01:04 PM
The driver's door being either open or unlocked is not the prime issue affecting the lack of credibility of the scene.

King Neptune
05-28-2013, 05:36 PM
Found a video that compares the two. If the main character knew that he was wearing a cotton shirt, and knew that cotton is as flammable as it is, then that's one of the best plans available: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-Gd5vp1WV4

Lighting him on fire without being shot or stabbed remains a concern, as does if he panicked and stayed in the car or crashed it. Still a workable plan. If the MC is brave against fire, he could work then try my idea of opening the door then kicking the BG out with both legs.


I don't set shirts of fire regularly, but they burn better than those samples. It might be that wear loosens the fibers.

One thing that you should remember for any method is that the EG is driving, and he will keep some of his attention on driving. A butane lighter set high will start a reasonablly large section of shirt on fire fairly quickly.

King Neptune
05-28-2013, 05:37 PM
New cars are a problem. If they were in a 1957 Chevyit wouldn't be all that hard to open the door and push the guy through.

Arianne
05-28-2013, 06:06 PM
New cars are a problem. If they were in a 1957 Chevyit wouldn't be all that hard to open the door and push the guy through.

You mean open the driver's door from the passenger's side and push the driver out?

Bing Z
05-28-2013, 07:24 PM
Bad guy carjacks MC's car. He has a gun. Whilst driving he wants to light up a cigarette/blunt so he puts his gun down. MC grabs it, accidentally fires but misses (so no tragedy), but scares the @#$ outta Bad Guy, who opens the door and jumps out. Comic, but weirder things have happened on news. You can also devise your scenario based on this track.

MC then uses hand brake to slowly stop the car (it really depends. I could drive my old car on with hand brake up at least somehow. With my current car hand brake up = can't drive) or if it's an older car with bench seat (like this 1986 Buick Regal (http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1948/4181/4869590004_large.jpg)) he can simply slides over and lights up a cig while whistling.

Bufty
05-28-2013, 11:10 PM
Arianne, one way round all this is if you have a friend with a car ask them if they would allow you to sit in the passenger seat beside them with both doors shut. Tell them the scenario and what you want your character (you) to try to do and that way you would see exactly what difficulties you are up against.

King Neptune
05-29-2013, 12:47 AM
You mean open the driver's door from the passenger's side and push the driver out?

Yes, exactly, one would lean across and flick the latch open and push. On old-fashioned bench seats that could have worked, but it would not be easy now.

It probably would also result in the car bumping into something.

Bufty
05-29-2013, 12:38 PM
I doubt very much if you could do that even on an old bench front seat. Sitting on them was like sitting on slippery plastic and you would have considerable trouble getting any leverage, even in the unlikely event the driver made no attempt to stop you trying to squeeze an arm past/between him and the wheel -and his arms and tummy.


Yes, exactly, one would lean across and flick the latch open and push. On old-fashioned bench seats that could have worked, but it would not be easy now.

It probably would also result in the car bumping into something.

cornflake
05-29-2013, 12:55 PM
Maybe we're missing something. Is there a compelling reason the MC would try to get in the car and then try to get the EG out - as opposed to just yelling and/or just trying to get out herself?

Is there like, a bajillion bucks worth of heroin hidden in a wheel well or something?

King Neptune
05-29-2013, 04:30 PM
I doubt very much if you could do that even on an old bench front seat. Sitting on them was like sitting on slippery plastic and you would have considerable trouble getting any leverage, even in the unlikely event the driver made no attempt to stop you trying to squeeze an arm past/between him and the wheel -and his arms and tummy.

The slipperiness is what could make it possible, if the pusher braced herself against the opposite side. It would require fast motion, and it might not work, but it be easier than any of the ideas that have come up for use in a recent car.

Mr. Mask
05-29-2013, 04:49 PM
Maybe we're missing something. Is there a compelling reason the MC would try to get in the car and then try to get the EG out - as opposed to just yelling and/or just trying to get out herself?

Is there like, a bajillion bucks worth of heroin hidden in a wheel well or something? Any amount of heroin could be compelling. The fear that police will find it when they find your car left who knows where, the fact your boss might kill you for losing it, the fact you're an addict who can't afford their next fix. Plus, if you're in the drug business, you probably own a gun and knife and feel like using them on anyone who dares cross you.

Bufty
05-29-2013, 05:57 PM
I think we really are in the realms of comic book stuff here.


The slipperiness is what could make it possible, if the pusher braced herself against the opposite side. It would require fast motion, and it might not work, but it be easier than any of the ideas that have come up for use in a recent car.

Arianne
05-29-2013, 06:32 PM
Should just clarify, there was no heroin involved in the writing of this scene...

I've managed to rewrite the scene so that the car bit doesn't happen. It's going to require going back and adding some stuff in the earlier chapters, but so far it looks okay.

King Neptune
05-29-2013, 07:09 PM
I think we really are in the realms of comic book stuff here.

I agree. Maybe the MC should reach into the back seat and grab the sawed off shotgun. It would create a mess, but it would eliminate a problem.

Quinn_Inuit
05-30-2013, 05:49 AM
Should just clarify, there was no heroin involved in the writing of this scene...

I've managed to rewrite the scene so that the car bit doesn't happen. It's going to require going back and adding some stuff in the earlier chapters, but so far it looks okay.

Nice work! I hope it works out well for you.

Becky Black
05-30-2013, 01:12 PM
What I'm finding not credible now is not so much the reaction of the MC in jumping into the car - people will do all kinds of daft things in the heat of the moment - but that the EG would keep on driving.

If I was opportunistically stealing a car that someone had left unlocked with the keys in, and then they jumped into the passenger seat beside me, I don't think just keep going. If I did then suddenly I'd be jumping from car theft to kidnapping - something that's going to get me in way bigger trouble. At that point I might, in reaction, try to shove them back out of the door if it was still open, but if I couldn't and especially if they were attacking me, I'd stop the car and run for it!

Bufty
05-30-2013, 03:51 PM
Situation no 2 only arises because of situation no 1 and situation no 1 is neither practical nor credible unless the thief shows he is a total incompetent by driving off so slowly as to permit the owner- or anyone- to run alongside, open a door and jump in beside him.

Opportunistic thieves act on the spur of the moment, and crawling away in a stolen car isn't compatible with that.


What I'm finding not credible now is not so much the reaction of the MC in jumping into the car - people will do all kinds of daft things in the heat of the moment - but that the EG would keep on driving.

If I was opportunistically stealing a car that someone had left unlocked with the keys in, and then they jumped into the passenger seat beside me, I don't think just keep going. If I did then suddenly I'd be jumping from car theft to kidnapping - something that's going to get me in way bigger trouble. At that point I might, in reaction, try to shove them back out of the door if it was still open, but if I couldn't and especially if they were attacking me, I'd stop the car and run for it!