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Ken Hoss
05-24-2013, 08:17 PM
I started a new WIP that involves a serial killer. As he's progressed and honed his skills, he's become a little more compassionate. At first he just slit his victim's throat and didn't think twice. Now he feels compassion for them and doesn't want them to suffer while the blood spurts from their slit throat. He does want them to be aware of what's happening to them though. So, I've researched and what I've found is that most neuromuscular-blocking drugs would also require a respirator to keep the person alive. Is there anything out there that could be used to paralyze an adult and yet keep them breathing? Well, at least until their throat is slit open. I thought about just using chloroform, but that's a little too cliche. Thanks for any suggestions

Chris P
05-24-2013, 08:31 PM
:roll:

I saw the thread title and I thought it was about immobilizing literary agents. That might be the only way to force them to read my book.

As to your question, sorry. I don't have any info.

veinglory
05-24-2013, 08:33 PM
A paralyzing agent is going to cause the person more distress rather than less, they still feel pain they just also feel the panic from being paralyzed. I would suggest looking for a sedative or dissociative agent instead.

Drachen Jager
05-24-2013, 08:39 PM
My thoughts exactly Chris. I thought the OP was going to go all Annie Wilkes on an agent.

Chloroform knocks people out, it is not, AFAIK a paralytic.

Have you looked into 'date rape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug)' drugs? There's a whole list of them there, many of which could fit your needs. There's a bunch of neuromuscular blocking drugs here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromuscular-blocking_drug) as well. Lastly, here (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/sedation-or-induction-agents-for-rapid-sequence-intubation-in-adults) is an article for MDs on neuro-blockers for use when rapid intubation is required.

Ken Hoss
05-24-2013, 08:39 PM
veinglory, thanks, I never considered a sedative or dissociative agent. I will look into that. He does want them to be aware of what is happening to them.

Ken Hoss
05-24-2013, 08:40 PM
Thanks, Drachen Jager, I will check those out.


ETA: I found a couple of choices. Ketamine or Thiopental. Either will work. Thanks again!

mirandashell
05-24-2013, 08:51 PM
Yeah, I was wondering what Ken's agent had done to deserve that!

melindamusil
05-24-2013, 08:54 PM
I don't know what your serial killer's backstory is, but...
perhaps he gives them an epidural, thus removing their ability to "feel" below that certain point on their spine, yet keeping them conscious.
Perhaps he is a doctor or nurse, or even just a surgery tech who has watched the doctor give epidurals. Or maybe he just learned how to do it by watching videos on Youtube.

Ken Hoss
05-24-2013, 09:08 PM
Yeah, I was wondering what Ken's agent had done to deserve that!

He wanted me to kill off Kelli in the third book, which I just finished by the way. :D

mirandashell
05-24-2013, 09:10 PM
Oh well, fair enough!


LOL!

ironmikezero
05-24-2013, 09:44 PM
Ken, a stun gun or taser will briefly incapacitate most people... But it's not exactly painless. OTOH, the application and effect are almost instantaneous.

veinglory
05-24-2013, 09:58 PM
I think ketamine might be a good one. It is available on the street so the character would have a way to get it.

Drachen Jager
05-24-2013, 10:03 PM
The street name for ketamine is 'special K'. Aside from date rapes, it's sometimes used as a party drug.

Keep in mind, that some people have a bad reaction to ketamine. They stop breathing entirely and their hearts can stop too. It's rare, but common enough that hospitals keep crash carts on hand when administering ketamine.

It's rare enough you don't have to use it, but also common enough you could slip it in to twist the plot, should you want to go that way.

Ken Hoss
05-24-2013, 10:03 PM
Ken, a stun gun or taser will briefly incapacitate most people... But it's not exactly painless. OTOH, the application and effect are almost instantaneous.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was looking for something a little more exotic. The idea is to have the victim conscious and yet unable to react. They know what is happening to them but are completely paralyzed.

asroc
05-24-2013, 10:22 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, but I was looking for something a little more exotic. The idea is to have the victim conscious and yet unable to react. They know what is happening to them but are completely paralyzed.

Ketamine doesn't do that. It's a potent anesthetic and hallucinogen. Off the top of my head I'm not aware of any neuromuscular blocker that does not call for intubation. (A respirator is a protective device like a gas mask, btw. You're thinking of a ventilator.)

ironmikezero
05-24-2013, 10:23 PM
Ah, you need something exotic... How about tetrodotoxin (the zombie drug)? In powdered form it can be easily inhaled/ingested - too easy, hence the technique of having it blown in the victim's face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrodotoxin

Ken Hoss
05-24-2013, 10:37 PM
Ketamine doesn't do that. It's a potent anesthetic and hallucinogen. Off the top of my head I'm not aware of any neuromuscular blocker that does not call for intubation. (A respirator is a protective device like a gas mask, btw. You're thinking of a ventilator.)


Yes, I misspoke. I meant ventilator. I really need to find something to paralyze, yet keep the person aware, seeing what is going on. I'll have a look at Iron Mike's suggestion. Thanks.

cornflake
05-24-2013, 10:54 PM
I wouldn't define getting off on having someone know this is happening and slowly watch it while being paralyzed 'more compassionate' but that may be just me.

Your problem with the paralytic is what you found. You could just manually do it with bindings, then no issue.

King Neptune
05-24-2013, 10:54 PM
Any drug would lead to the victims having more not less discomfort. Slashing the carotid artery causes unconsciousness from the loss in blood pressure within a rather short time, a few seconds, and the victim probably will not regain consciousness.

Bufty
05-24-2013, 10:57 PM
And that's what he calls compassion and lessening of their suffering?

Yikes.


.......something to paralyze, yet keep the person aware, seeing what is going on

King Neptune
05-24-2013, 11:12 PM
And that's what he calls compassion and lessening of their suffering?

Yikes.

The character is a psychopathic murderer. What should we expect?

cornflake
05-24-2013, 11:20 PM
The character is a psychopathic murderer. What should we expect?

Where did he say he was a psychopath?

mirandashell
05-24-2013, 11:21 PM
He used 'serial killer'.

Ken Hoss
05-24-2013, 11:24 PM
And that's what he calls compassion and lessening of their suffering?

Yikes.

Hey, even serial killers have feelings too. :tongue Well, maybe not. This guy is sick and twisted, all thanks to Mommy.




Your problem with the paralytic is what you found. You could just manually do it with bindings, then no issue.



It is a problem. There has to be something you can inject into someone to render them helpless. I suppose I could use something that renders them unconscious and tie them down, but then Dexter already has that niche locked up. I need my SK to stand out, be unique as it were.




Any drug would lead to the victims having more not less discomfort. Slashing the carotid artery causes unconsciousness from the loss in blood pressure within a rather short time, a few seconds, and the victim probably will not regain consciousness.



He's really not concerned about their comfort, he just wants to kill in a, shall we say, more humane way. (I said he was sick and twisted. :evil ) As for cutting the carotid, have you been looking over my shoulder while I'm writing?

cornflake
05-24-2013, 11:36 PM
He used 'serial killer'.

Yeah but one isn't necessarily the other. I don't mean to be debating you all over the place btw - I generally agree with your posts n stuff!


Hey, even serial killers have feelings too. :tongue Well, maybe not. This guy is sick and twisted, all thanks to Mommy.

It is a problem. There has to be something you can inject into someone to render them helpless. I suppose I could use something that renders them unconscious and tie them down, but then Dexter already has that niche locked up. I need my SK to stand out, be unique as it were.

He's really not concerned about their comfort, he just wants to kill in a, shall we say, more humane way. (I said he was sick and twisted. :evil ) As for cutting the carotid, have you been looking over my shoulder while I'm writing?

I think I don't understand how that's more humane, not being concerned for their comfort and wanting to do something in a way that causes more suffering. Not that I need to understand; it's your character, just saying.

mirandashell
05-24-2013, 11:39 PM
No you're cool! I enjoy debating with you cos I feel like we see each other's points even if we don't agree. I don't get the brick wall feeling like I do with some others.

cornflake
05-24-2013, 11:41 PM
That's cause you're bigger on the inside.


:ROFL:

rugcat
05-24-2013, 11:50 PM
Succinylcholine chloride was used in the famous Carl Coppolino (http://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/coppolino-carl.htm) murder case.


Suxamethonium does not produce unconsciousness or anesthesia, and its effects may cause considerable psychological distress while simultaneously making it impossible for a patient to communicate. Therefore, administration of the drug to a conscious patient is contraindicated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suxamethonium_chloride

mirandashell
05-24-2013, 11:51 PM
That's cause you're bigger on the inside.


:ROFL:

LOL!

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 12:00 AM
Yeah but one isn't necessarily the other. I don't mean to be debating you all over the place btw - I generally agree with your posts n stuff!



I think I don't understand how that's more humane, not being concerned for their comfort and wanting to do something in a way that causes more suffering. Not that I need to understand; it's your character, just saying.

In his own, sick and twisted way, it is more humane. Plus it makes it less likely that they will escape.

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 12:07 AM
Succinylcholine chloride was used in the famous Carl Coppolino (http://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/coppolino-carl.htm) murder case.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suxamethonium_chloride


Thanks rugcat. This could work, though it is also a neuromuscular-blocking drug. Any input?

melindamusil
05-25-2013, 12:08 AM
On the "psychopath vs. serial killer" argument...
In this case, perhaps he is anesthetizing his victims NOT to be more humane but to cause more fear/anxiety. I saw an episode of criminal minds once with a killer who would cut off the victim's eyelids to force them to watch the killing - he could be doing something along those lines.

You could also look into pancuronium bromide (or another muscle relaxant). Pancuronium bromide is the 2nd drug used in the lethal injection cocktail (usually preceded by another drug to cause unconsciousness) and causes muscle paralysis and respiratory depression. However, assuming he's quick, that could still work for you.

King Neptune
05-25-2013, 12:22 AM
He used 'serial killer'.

Let's not split hairs about it. The murderer has a major mental problem, so whether the victims are uncomfortable should not be a problem to the murderer.

King Neptune
05-25-2013, 12:25 AM
The killer might want to use a "sleeper hold" to knock out victims, unless he wants to watch them fear for their lives, or something.

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 12:27 AM
On the "psychopath vs. serial killer" argument...
In this case, perhaps he is anesthetizing his victims NOT to be more humane but to cause more fear/anxiety. I saw an episode of criminal minds once with a killer who would cut off the victim's eyelids to force them to watch the killing - he could be doing something along those lines.

You could also look into pancuronium bromide (or another muscle relaxant). Pancuronium bromide is the 2nd drug used in the lethal injection cocktail (usually preceded by another drug to cause unconsciousness) and causes muscle paralysis and respiratory depression. However, assuming he's quick, that could still work for you.

It could work, other than the possibility the vic could suffocate before he finishes. I'm familiar with pancuronium bromide being a Texan, where we don't just execute 'em, we put in an express lane. I'm thinking the suxamethonium, or succs, would work, just need to research more.

Wow, just checked the number of views and didn't think this post would generate this much interest. Apparently I hit on something, or people are just sick. :tongue

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 12:34 AM
Let's not split hairs about it. The murderer has a major mental problem, so whether the victims are uncomfortable should not be a problem to the murderer.


Psychopath: A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.

Serial Killer: A person who attacks and kills victims one by one in a series of incidents.

So, a serial killer can be a psychopath, but can a psychopath be a serial killer? The debate goes on.

mirandashell
05-25-2013, 12:36 AM
There's a lot of MTS writers on this board. All research is good research.

cornflake
05-25-2013, 12:38 AM
Psychopath: A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.

Serial Killer: A person who attacks and kills victims one by one in a series of incidents.

So, a serial killer can be a psychopath, but can a psychopath be a serial killer? The debate goes on.

A psychopath is not someone with ASPD, they're two different things. Often psychopaths do code for ASPD, but not the other way 'round and not necessarily either.

As to the latter, that's a dictionary definition.

cornflake
05-25-2013, 12:41 AM
Let's not split hairs about it. The murderer has a major mental problem, so whether the victims are uncomfortable should not be a problem to the murderer.

Kind of depends on how you're defining major mental problem. What's a problem to someone or not has nothing much to do with what someone else would perceive should be a problem to him or her.

Attempting to apply logic to the illogical never gets anyone anyplace really.

rugcat
05-25-2013, 12:47 AM
Apparently I hit on something, or people are just sick. :tongueI remember there was a similar thread quite some time ago as well.

ETA:

Here it is:


http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250374&highlight=Succinylcholine

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 01:00 AM
A psychopath is not someone with ASPD, they're two different things. Often psychopaths do code for ASPD, but not the other way 'round and not necessarily either.

As to the latter, that's a dictionary definition.

Just flaming the flames, cornflake. And yes, the latter is a dictionary definition. Actually, both are from the dictionary.

Here's a real serial killer:

http://kenhoss.blogspot.com/2012/11/serial-killer-of-week-ted-bundy.html

What makes a serial killer a serial killer?

http://kenhoss.blogspot.com/2012/10/what-makes-serial-killer-serial-killer.html

But then, we're getting way off topic here. So, anyone else have an idea of what drug my SK could use to disable his victims, yet leave them conscious?

Putputt
05-25-2013, 01:55 AM
Err, I'm not sure I grasp how having them paralyzed and yet completely aware of what's being done to them is more humane. :D Maybe "humane" isn't quite the word to describe it?

veinglory
05-25-2013, 02:55 AM
In his own, sick and twisted way, it is more humane. Plus it makes it less likely that they will escape.

I think what I am missing is how he thinks it is more humane. It can be a sick, twisted reason but there still needs to be a reason why he thinks paralyzed+pain causes less suffering than physically restrained+pain.

This restraint methods is illegal in people and animals because we know it is the most distressing of the available methods, and it does risk death by suffocation which is panic-causing in itself.

melindamusil
05-25-2013, 02:58 AM
Let's not split hairs about it. The murderer has a major mental problem, so whether the victims are uncomfortable should not be a problem to the murderer.


Err, I'm not sure I grasp how having them paralyzed and yet completely aware of what's being done to them is more humane. :D Maybe "humane" isn't quite the word to describe it?

He's killing people, therefore he's at least somewhat nuts. In his twisted mind, he believes that he is being humane.

Remember, some serial killers think they are doing their victims a favor. In their minds, the world is so bad that they equate death with mercy.

All that matters is that the nutjob killer is well written.

blacbird
05-25-2013, 05:00 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suxamethonium_chloride

caw

ebbrown
05-25-2013, 05:21 AM
I started a new WIP that involves a serial killer. As he's progressed and honed his skills, he's become a little more compassionate. At first he just slit his victim's throat and didn't think twice. Now he feels compassion for them and doesn't want them to suffer while the blood spurts from their slit throat. He does want them to be aware of what's happening to them though. So, I've researched and what I've found is that most neuromuscular-blocking drugs would also require a respirator to keep the person alive. Is there anything out there that could be used to paralyze an adult and yet keep them breathing? Well, at least until their throat is slit open. I thought about just using chloroform, but that's a little too cliche. Thanks for any suggestions

I used to sing a little ditty when teaching new nurses how to be calm during code intubations: Sedate with Etomidate, cause it sucks (succinylcholine) to be paralyzed. Still gives me a chuckle.

Propofol is a drug you could use. Also called Diprivan, or Jackson juice. It is the color of milk, we also call it "milk of amnesia" because patients wake up and ask if we started yet. It puts people down, but they usually keep breathing on their own if the dose is titrated properly. It also wears off rapidly, so if a patient stops breathing you only have to bag them for a minute or so before they come back. We use propofol a lot to reduce dislocated shoulders and to set broken bones.
Might be useful to you.

Ps sorry for misspelled words or typos, I'm on kindle

veinglory
05-25-2013, 05:26 AM
All that matters is that the nutjob killer is well written.

Exactly, but "nutjob" doesn't mean "his behavior does not need to make sense". It needs to make sense to him and I don't think you are saying how it makes sense to him.

For example does he think people want to feel completely helpless like swaddled babies and thus he assumes paralyzed people are calm when in fact they are not.

Or does he realize they a panicked to death but figures paralyzing them makes it quick and thus is more humane than a protracted struggle.

Or does he just know that paralytics are used on death row and so he just figures they must be humane and he hasn't thought about it beyond that.

Each one of these would be a completely different character. So to try and advise what your character might use, we need to know something about what his nutjob definition of "humane" is and so how/whether he would deal with the risk of asphyxiation.

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 05:42 AM
Didn't realize this would start such a flurry. Simply started out as a research question. What would be a good drug for someone to use to paralyze a person?

veinglory, maybe reading this will help: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270679

This is the prologue to the WIP, be sure to scroll down to post #14, the revision.

ebbrown, thanks for the suggestions, I will look into them. Big help and love your little mnemonic device. :D

blacbird, caw back. Thanks for the link.

King Neptune
05-25-2013, 05:36 PM
Kind of depends on how you're defining major mental problem. What's a problem to someone or not has nothing much to do with what someone else would perceive should be a problem to him or her.

Attempting to apply logic to the illogical never gets anyone anyplace really.

You are right. A seriaql killer may be completely sane and may be doing a very good deed. There are too many possibilities for me to come strongly on one side or another. Are there many people that you need to get rid of one after another?

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 06:09 PM
You are right. A seriaql killer may be completely sane and may be doing a very good deed. There are too many possibilities for me to come strongly on one side or another. Are there many people that you need to get rid of one after another?

Oh, he seems quite sane to the people he encounters in his daily life, though he is a bit of a loner. As for his victims, as a lot of serial killers do, he has escalated his timeline. At first the killings were months apart, and then just weeks apart. Now, in order to feel the same "rush", he finds that he has to hunt weekly.

asroc
05-25-2013, 06:27 PM
I don't know if you're more interested in the serial killer debate now, but I don't know any paralytic that doesn't affect breathing. Ketamine, propofol, chloroform and sodium thiopental are all sedatives/anesthetics. They'll leave your victim unconscious or dead and not paralyzed.

Succinylcholine/suxamethonium is a paralytic, a neuromuscular blocker like pancuronium, vecuronium, rocuronium etc. However all those, sux included, inhibit respiration. Without assisted ventilation your victim will most likely suffocate.

Now, I'm only a medic. So, because I like you, I asked one of the emergency physicians last night if he could think of a drug like that and he doesn't think those exist outside of movies. Sorry.

veinglory
05-25-2013, 06:30 PM
If you are extinguishing them they will probably be unconscious before the asphyxiate anyway.

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 06:49 PM
I don't know if you're more interested in the serial killer debate now, but I don't know any paralytic that doesn't affect breathing. Ketamine, propofol, chloroform and sodium thiopental are all sedatives/anesthetics. They'll leave your victim unconscious or dead and not paralyzed.

Succinylcholine/suxamethonium is a paralytic, a neuromuscular blocker like pancuronium, vecuronium, rocuronium etc. However all those, sux included, inhibit respiration. Without assisted ventilation your victim will most likely suffocate.

Now, I'm only a medic. So, because I like you, I asked one of the emergency physicians last night if he could think of a drug like that and he doesn't think those exist outside of movies. Sorry.

Thanks, asroc. Hope the Doc didn't give you a odd look for asking that.

I was looking into curare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curare), but it too leads to asphyxiation. Though I am loathe to do it, I suppose he could use a knock out drug like a certain television serial killer and then incapcitate his victims by tying them up. Why is nothing easy?

asroc
05-25-2013, 07:22 PM
Thanks, asroc. Hope the Doc didn't give you a odd look for asking that.

Heh, no. He was more disappointed that I had to ask. Trust me, that was one of the more socially acceptable conversations we've had.


Why is nothing easy?

Easy things aren't fun. I mean, we're writers.

Ken Hoss
05-25-2013, 08:05 PM
I may have it, now that I'm not fixated on paralyzing the victims. He could possibly use a combination of sevofluarane and nitrous oxide and cover his victims mouth with a mask. According to Drugs.com, it would take about 1 minute to take effect. After that, he could restrain them and do his deed when they come to. Yeah, maybe too much like Dexter. I have to stew on it.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, and the debate between psycho and serial killer was fun. :D

cornflake
05-25-2013, 09:31 PM
You are right. A seriaql killer may be completely sane and may be doing a very good deed. There are too many possibilities for me to come strongly on one side or another. Are there many people that you need to get rid of one after another?

I've not run into a serial killer doing a very good deed or who even thought he was. Sane though, plenty, even most. I'm trying to think of one judged insane and can't atm. Though I'm sure I'm just not thinking of it.