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Mr. Mask
05-19-2013, 07:38 PM
There's something I've wondered. With Boxing, is there no limit to the weight of the boxer in the heavyweight category? If so, could you have someone with giantism, or someone who is merely very tall be a boxer? Has this happened before?

I wonder what ramifications that could have. I saw a kickboxing fight between someone with giantism and someone not very tall. The giant had a big advantage, in that the smaller fellow had no safe way of approaching him, and so just kept stepping out of reach.

cornflake
05-19-2013, 09:34 PM
There's something I've wondered. With Boxing, is there no limit to the weight of the boxer in the heavyweight category? If so, could you have someone with giantism, or someone who is merely very tall be a boxer? Has this happened before?

I wonder what ramifications that could have. I saw a kickboxing fight between someone with giantism and someone not very tall. The giant had a big advantage, in that the smaller fellow had no safe way of approaching him, and so just kept stepping out of reach.

No upper limit to my knowledge, and I dunno if there's been a giant boxer.

The problem with the idea is the same as the problem with the idea of having a hugely obese, shortish person play goal for an ice hockey team. In theory, the size works. In practice, the size is not a help but a hinderance.

I don't know from kickboxing but in boxing, being able to move is important. Generally someone very large is going to be slower and quicker to tire. A more normally-sized heavyweight can put a hell of a lot behind a punch. He'd only have to be able to drift in and out and connect well every so often to wear someone out in decent time.

A giant goalie is going to be pulled out of the net or tipped over eventually and then what? Can't move or get back up fast enough.

King Neptune
05-19-2013, 09:43 PM
As you remember, Sonny Liston had a few inches of reach on Cassius Clay, and he won their first match, but he lost the second. Extra reach does win in boxing, but there are limits both ways. Arm length is not necessarily proportional to height, and as the Cornflake pointed out, big people are sometimes clumsy. There is also the matter of excess height being a problem. Picture a seven footer punching down at a six footer, while the six footer is hammering at the seven footer's midsection.

If you know someone with suitable proportions, then you might try it, but taking some potion to lengthen your arms probably would be a mistake.

BradyH1861
05-19-2013, 10:19 PM
Primo Carnera was a big boxer. He was around 6'6" and, depending on the fight, weighed as much as 270 lbs. Though Primo did win a lot, he also lost to the likes of Joe Louis and Max Baer.

A quicker fighter can have a slight advantage over a lumbering heavy fighter provided that they don't try to fight inside where the heavy fighter has an advantage.

waylander
05-20-2013, 12:18 AM
Google Nikolai Valuev - 'the beast from the east'
Former WBA heavyweight champion, height 7ft.

Mr. Mask
05-20-2013, 11:03 PM
That guy is big. Watched one of his fights. From what I can tell, he seems to have the advantage in several practical senses. His high win rate testifies to that, at least somewhat.

The particular fight I saw showed off the main disadvantage. Fighting for points.

clee984
05-20-2013, 11:43 PM
As you remember, Sonny Liston had a few inches of reach on Cassius Clay, and he won their first match, but he lost the second.

Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali won both fights, although there was some controversy around both. Liston had excellent reach for his size (which was formidable). Joe Frazier beat Ali in their first match, and Joe was about 4 inches shorter.

There is no size limit on how big a heavyweight can be, the problem comes with speed and manoeuvrability. Nicolai Valuev is huge, and suprisingly agile for a big man, but was still beaten by David Haye, a former cruiserweight. Valuev was also very lucky to get a decision over 6'2" John Ruiz (not to mention over 48 year old Evander Holyfield), an unfortunate gentleman who was the laughing stock of the boxing world for the majority of his career.

Primo Carnera is a good example, he could barely box, but was promoted simply on his size. His story is the basis of a very good boxing novel called 'The Harder they Fall' by Budd Schulberg, about a giant of a man, who can't fight, but is nevertheless given a huge push by promoters/crooked journalists etc.

A great number of the best heavyweights of all time are on the 'small' side - Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Rocky Marciano.....Evander Holyfield was consistently referred to as a "blown up cruiserweight", but nevertheless became a great heavyweight. Very few are genuinely huge guys - Lennox Lewis at 6'5", and George Foreman at 6'4" are about the limit for the "greats".

A way to look at it is this - take the world's strongest (or largest) man. Impressive, no doubt, but put boxing gloves on him, and send him into a ring to fight Marquis of Queensbury rules with 5'10" Mike Tyson in his prime, and the guy is going to get murdered inside of 30 seconds, no matter how big or strong he is.

There's a saying in boxing - "Little guys fight. Big guys break up fights".

clee984
05-20-2013, 11:54 PM
If you want to see what happens when a little guy who can fight takes on a big guy, watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvCHk_kKpVI), Jack Dempsey versus (then heavyweight champion) Jess Willard from 1919 (warning, quite brutal).

Maryn
05-21-2013, 06:51 AM
Wow. Do you happen to know the heights and weights of Dempsey and Willis?

It makes me feel good about a character in an unsold book being a fairly small man but a good fighter when pushed. One of my betas didn't buy it. I know just what link to send her...

Maryn, thinking if it were just size, Andre the Giant would have won

clee984
05-21-2013, 08:22 AM
Wow. Do you happen to know the heights and weights of Dempsey and Willis?


Jack Dempsey was around 6'0" and probably weighed about 190lbs, Willard was 6'6", as for his weight......not sure, I'd guess about 230, 240lbs, something like that.

Dreity
05-21-2013, 09:40 AM
The commentary for that fight was wonderful. Sort of purple in some places, but compared to the modern commentators I hear? Just beautiful.

That's art right there.

Oh, and the fight was pretty intense too. :P

clee984
05-21-2013, 02:51 PM
I hate to sound like a boxing bore (which is difficult, because I am one), but here's another youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYZzMPsm6c4), a highlights reel of Mike Tyson, which illustrates perfectly that size and bulk are not always advantages in boxing. Every one of his opponents in the video is both taller and heavier than him.

(If it sounds like I have a bee in my bonnet about this, it's because I do, I used to box at light-heavyweight, and once got smacked all around the ring by a welterweight I could barely lay a glove on).

cornflake
05-21-2013, 09:52 PM
Wow. Do you happen to know the heights and weights of Dempsey and Willis?

It makes me feel good about a character in an unsold book being a fairly small man but a good fighter when pushed. One of my betas didn't buy it. I know just what link to send her...

Maryn, thinking if it were just size, Andre the Giant would have won

It's so not to do with size; it's about knowing what to do and being able to execute without getting caught/tagged/nailed. Boxing is classed so that heavyweight is the only place you'll see disparity.

Other arenas, like, say, hockey fighting, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that it's not to do with size. Which isn't to say that larger people can't be the better fighters, obviously can, just that having a size advantage is no guarantee of winning a fight or even close.

Also, send her to read the second Girl with the Dragon Tattoo book, or a number of Spenser novels, in which a smaller character who knows how to box/fight takes down a much larger one, with detailed, clear description.

Deepthought
05-26-2013, 04:10 AM
There's something I've wondered. With Boxing, is there no limit to the weight of the boxer in the heavyweight category? If so, could you have someone with giantism, or someone who is merely very tall be a boxer? Has this happened before?

I wonder what ramifications that could have. I saw a kickboxing fight between someone with giantism and someone not very tall. The giant had a big advantage, in that the smaller fellow had no safe way of approaching him, and so just kept stepping out of reach.

I think you saw the Hong Man Choi vs Kaoklai fight. He does have some kind of abnormal growth, you are right. However, in Japan, they love those open weight tourneys. You don't them here.

In the very old days, they had bouts between heavyweights and welterweights even. Some of the welterweights won, but they were the legends of old. Some small man vs big man fights where the small man wins (or he just looks small against the tall man):

Joe Louis vs Primo Carnera
Mike Tyson vs Razor Ruddock
Rahman vs Lewis

Where the big guy wins:
Foreman vs Qawi (How Ali took Foreman punches, I'll never know)
Lewis vs Tua

But for the most part, people over 6'4 aren't the very best. It makes them a bit awkward, Lennox Lewis was the exception. Ali was I think 6'3, but he was incredibly mobile for a heavyweight (at least, in the 60's), he dodged punches like in Dragon Ball Z, with hands down.

blacbird
05-26-2013, 06:59 AM
As you remember, Sonny Liston had a few inches of reach on Cassius Clay, and he won their first match, but he lost the second.

You remember incorrectly. Clay was both much taller and had a much longer reach than Liston, and won both fights they ever had in somewhat controversial fashion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston


As for "giant" fighter, the biggest known is Nikolai Valuev, a freakishly large man who stood something like 7'2" and held world championships briefly in recent years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Valuev

caw

Deepthought
05-26-2013, 07:28 AM
You remember incorrectly. Clay was both much taller and had a much longer reach than Liston, and won both fights they ever had in somewhat controversial fashion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston


As for "giant" fighter, the biggest known is Nikolai Valuev, a freakishly large man who stood something like 7'2" and held world championships briefly in recent years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Valuev

caw

Actually, Ali had a reach of 80 while Liston had 84. Some say this is not true, that Ali had 82, and Liston actually had 80. And Ali won both easily, albeit controversially.

wendymarlowe
05-26-2013, 07:59 AM
Look up Butterbean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Esch) - 5'11", 420 pounds of not-terribly-impressive boxer/kickboxer/MMA/wrestler. He's got a middling record but he's well-known because he's so darn huge!