Doctor Who Poll (kinda a branch-off thread to deal with recent episode debacles, etc.)

Fire Moffat.
He wrote some great one off episodes in the RTD era and the first series with Amy & Rory was good but I really don't know what he's doing any more.

You missed another option on the poll:

'Get rid of Clara and everything will be fine'

DW started going down the toilet well before Clara. It's Moff and his Special Snowflake Save the Universe shtick that's causing the problem.

I actually like the current direction of the show--and here I'm speaking of Series 7b, post-Ponds--but I strongly, strongly dislike the way Moffat handles his female characters in general. Here's the thing: the plot's kind of a hot mess. But if I'm on board with the characters and the atmosphere, continuity doesn't bother me all that much. I'd prefer to have a plot that holds together, yes, but if those first two things are working, I can live with it. I get the feeling a cheese-grater plot is a deal breaker for people other than me.

ETA: I love Clara. Favorite New Who companion hands-down. What I don't like about how she's being handled is the Magical Girl role she inhabits, plus the fact that she looks after children and likes to bake. I mean, c'mon. That's a housewife trope if I ever saw one. But putting aside tropes and looking at her purely as an individual? Can't get enough of her.

I don't know if it's enough to fire Moffat exactly, but I really do not want to know the Doctor's name. (I'd love Matt Smith's number, but that's beside the point.) I think if Moffat messes that up, then it's pitchforks and torches time.

Rhoda - Hmmm... I tend to be the opposite. A coherent plot is important to me. It doesn't need to be realistic or non-fantastical but it must be coherent in its own universe. And that a massive dealbreaker with the present incarnation. What has gone before seems to not matter. For instance, all the 'not crossing the timeline' gets thrown out if that what the ending of the story needs. It leads to lazy writing, imo.

mirandashell said:

Rhoda - Hmmm... I tend to be the opposite. A coherent plot is important to me. It doesn't need to be realistic or non-fantastical but it must be coherent in its own universe. And that a massive dealbreaker with the present incarnation. What has gone before seems to not matter. For instance, all the 'not crossing the timeline' gets thrown out if that what the ending of the story needs. It leads to lazy writing, imo.

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Yeah, I figured that's where a lot of the frustration was coming from, not just from you, but from the fandom in general. I'm not saying a coherent plot doesn't matter to me at all, but in the Whoniverse it doesn't matter to me as much as the characterizations--that's why I watch the show, to hang out with these fictional people and go on zany adventures with them. It veers off into silly quite a bit, but I sort of figured it had always been a bit silly, and I'm okay with that.

I should probably mention I haven't seen "The Crimson Horror" yet. I can't guarantee I'll be near a television on Saturday nights, and even if I am, I can't guarantee I'll have control of the remote. I have to wait until it winds up either on YouTube or OnDemand.

However, I was more than a little dismayed to see the amount of vitriol heaped onto "Journey to the Center of the Tardis" after I watched it, because that's probably my favorite episode since "The Doctor's Wife." Because of the characterizations and atmosphere. The reset button pissed me off, as it did everyone else, but I think there are going to be consequences--I don't buy that Clara's really forgotten everything. It was a lazy plot device, but since I loved everything that came beforehand, I let it slide. Also, I found this amazing meta-analysis going through the episode from the point of view of mythic archetypes, with the TARDIS as the World Tree, the Doctor as the Prophet/Journeyman, and Clara as the Trickster. That blew my mind.

^I've seen you mention that a couple times, and my answer is HELL no. My one time-travel story is giving me enough headaches, thank you kindly. I love that stuff, but it's a pain in the ass to write. Y'all carry on though, if you want.

Rhoda Nightingale said:

ETA: I love Clara. Favorite New Who companion hands-down. What I don't like about how she's being handled is the Magical Girl role she inhabits, plus the fact that she looks after children and likes to bake. I mean, c'mon. That's a housewife trope if I ever saw one. But putting aside tropes and looking at her purely as an individual? Can't get enough of her.

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I love the idea of Clara - I just found her first two incarnations far more interesting than the one we're stuck with now. I thought the Christmas episode with her was fantastic, much stronger than a lot of the previous Christmas episodes. And I really love JLC and had done before she became a companion.

She came in as interesting and independent and one step ahead of the Doctor and now she's just another puppy dog that's constantly going out of her way to seek his approval. She had sooo much more potential than what Moffat's done with her

ellio said:

I love the idea of Clara - I just found her first two incarnations far more interesting than the one we're stuck with now. I thought the Christmas episode with her was fantastic, much stronger than a lot of the previous Christmas episodes. And I really love JLC and had done before she became a companion.

She came in as interesting and independent and one step ahead of the Doctor and now she's just another puppy dog that's constantly going out of her way to seek his approval. She had sooo much more potential than what Moffat's done with her

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Victorian!Clara is my favorite, too. The Christmas episode was brilliant. And I want a Vastra/Jenny spinoff.

That's my other problem. The companion shouldn't be one step ahead of the Doctor. As someone else said, the Doctor should be the smartest man in the room. I'm not saying the companion should be all girly and soppy but she shouldn't be smarter than him. He's 900 year old Timelord for gods sake.

He might be a 900 year old Time Lord but we don't know what Clara is yet. Considering we've already seen her have three lives, it's entirely plausible that her existence could greatly outstretch the Doctor's. It worked for me that the first two Clara's seemed to match up to him.

It's not just Clara though. It was the same with Pond.

I like Clara, and love Jenna Louise Coleman as an actress. My problem is the lack of plot and story. That has nothing to do with the arc plots or companion in my mind.

The screwdriver is out far too many times an episode. I'll avoid spoilers, but the use it was put to in The Crimson Horror defies any definition of screwdriver I've ever come across. It's become the ultimate magical mcguffin.

If the screwdriver can't fix it, the tardis can.

I can't tell you how nice it was last night to see someone simply being punched.

The companion and the doctor are allowed to, and meant to solve the problem, not just wave tech around. I don't mind the companion having a mystery, that's storytelling and I like storytelling.

I used to have a similar problem with Discworld books. The characters are brilliant, the set-ups are brilliant, then at some point the story resolves and that isn't brilliant. Moffet has forgotten stories have to have, er, stories in them, he's replaced the stories with anti-gravity motorbikes.

Craig

I didn't like Donna at first but she developed into my favourite NuWho companion. There was a proper, grown-up balanced relationship between her and the Doctor.

mirandashell said:

He's 900 year old Timelord for gods sake.

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"It's just what they're called. It doesn't mean he actually knows what he's doing."

Sorry--I couldn't just leave that one hanging. Although I agree with you, as a matter of fact. I find Clara's comparable reserve and lack of snark refreshing--she's clever, but not more so than the Doctor, at least not in her current incarnation.

@BillTrumpet25: One of my LJ friends mentioned that as well, and accredited it to what she calls the "Moffat Girl" problem. If you go back through his one-offs for 9 and 10, you'll start to notice a pattern--they all have a new character, usually female, who's Super Special in some way, extra-smart, snarky, and flirtatious. Oh, and they tend to outshine the regular companion in whatever episode they're in. Which led me to wonder whether Captain Jack counts as Moffat Girl...

I've groused a bit in the original thread already, but yes, the whole Super-Special companion, who is intrinsically special instead of doing smart/brave things, who he then meets at many points in their life is so over-used, the nonsensical plots, the hand-waving of the hand-waving, the cheapening of the emotional beats. All of that.

I do wonder -- Moffat, despite the issues I have with Adler, seems to do quite well when working with someone else like Gatiss and I adore 90% of what they've done with Sherlock. (Like, obsessively adore.) The stories there are 90 minutes and feel perfect -- just the right amount of fast action, just the right amount of quiet, just the right amount of character building. Is he trying to take that formula and squeeze it into a 44 minute Doctor Who show every week? 'Cause it's really not working. Moffat's first year as showrunner did not bug me as much as S6 and now S7.1 and S7.2 (which I want to set on fire).

scribofelidae said:

I do wonder -- Moffat, despite the issues I have with Adler, seems to do quite well when working with someone else like Gatiss and I adore 90% of what they've done with Sherlock. (Like, obsessively adore.) The stories there are 90 minutes and feel perfect -- just the right amount of fast action, just the right amount of quiet, just the right amount of character building. Is he trying to take that formula and squeeze it into a 44 minute Doctor Who show every week? 'Cause it's really not working. Moffat's first year as showrunner did not bug me as much as S6 and now S7.1 and S7.2 (which I want to set on fire).

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I think the 45-minute thing is causing Moffat problems. Sherlock has more room to breathe. The 45-minute episodes are to account for adverts when it's shown elsewhere, and it's strangling the writing. They have to cram too much in to each episode. I don't see that changing as long as the BBC makes so much money back from foreign rights, but it's very frustrating.