So you're stuck on a mountain...

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 29, 2013

So you're stuck on a mountain with an unconscious friend. You've applied first aid, but help is still a couple of hours away. The terrain is rocky, no plants to speak of. The air is chilly, maybe 50 Fahrenheit. You and your friend are dressed reasonably for the weather, with pants, shirts, and light jackets. You have no other relevant gear, though, as you weren't planning your hike to be long.

How do you keep your friend warm while waiting for help to arrive?

Lay on top of him, to keep him from getting a chill in the wind.
Lay underneath him, to keep the earth from sucking out his body heat.
Lay next to him, to keep him somewhat warm, but that's all that's really necessary.
Stand around and try not to get bored. He's not going to get _that_ chilly while you wait.

cornflake · Apr 29, 2013

I opened this thread with the expectation that I could register an opinion about eating the friend.

It doesn't seem as if that's strictly necessary, but I still feel it may be the best option.

Liralen · Apr 29, 2013

You build a fire. Warm and it's a beacon.

blacbird · Apr 29, 2013

50F may not sound that cold, but deadly hypothermia can set in at even higher temperatures, if a person is immobile and especially if suffering medical stress from some injury. Hypothermia is the single greatest danger (assuming there's not a grizzly bear roaming around right nearby).

The person must be covered as efficiently as possible, and if that involves body contact, arrange as much as is possible to be above. The ground will hold bodily warmth far better than the air will. And being out of exposure to wind or precipitation would be a huge issue.

caw

A lot depends also on the nature of the injury. Is loss of blood involved? Shock? Unconsciousness?

blacbird · Apr 29, 2013

Liralen said:
You build a fire.

With what?

caw

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 29, 2013

cornflake said:
I opened this thread with the expectation that I could register an opinion about eating the friend.

It doesn't seem as if that's strictly necessary, but I still feel it may be the best option.

LOL. That wouldn't quite work here, but I should totally have added that as an option in the pseudo-poll.

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 29, 2013

blacbird said:
With what?

caw

Aye, there's the rub. There's no fuel in the area except their clothing, and that would serve them better if worn.

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 29, 2013

blacbird said:
50F may not sound that cold, but deadly hypothermia can set in at even higher temperatures, if a person is immobile and especially if suffering medical stress from some injury. Hypothermia is the single greatest danger (assuming there's not a grizzly bear roaming around right nearby).

The person must be covered as efficiently as possible, and if that involves body contact, arrange as much as is possible to be above. The ground will hold bodily warmth far better than the air will. And being out of exposure to wind or precipitation would be a huge issue.

caw

A lot depends also on the nature of the injury. Is loss of blood involved? Shock? Unconsciousness?

That's good to know, thanks. I'll arrange it so the unconscious character is left on the ground and have the other character lie on top of him. If survival isn't plausible at 50F, I can push the temperature up to 60-65F.

Here are the additional details you requested:

There's no precipitation or large carnivores in the area.

One character has some cuts and bruises, as well as a mild concussion. She recovers consciousness within a minute or two and is mostly functional, with only some lingering headaches, dizziness, and a bit of memory loss.

The other character has cuts and bruises, a deep gash on one arm requiring a bandage (but not with serious blood loss), and a head injury causing a lot of bleeding and moderate concussion. He's out for several hours, though fatigue also plays a role in that. I'd like to give him a simple skull fracture, but I'm concerned that the ca.1700s medical tech (but with knowledge of the germ theory of illness) would be unable to allow him to recover fully. (Plot-wise, I need him fully functional and back to doing serious martial arts within a year or so.)

King Neptune · Apr 30, 2013

At 50F the temperature is ot an issue. If it's just a matter of waiting a few hours, and the injured one is asleep, then boredom would be the only problem. When people are asleep, the sensation of temperature stops until the temperature gets into the uncomfortable range under 35 F.

Patrick.S · Apr 30, 2013

Lying on top of a person with serious injuries would probably be a mistake. If the person is dry and has decent all weather gear at 50 degrees, I think you would be better off maybe huddling with an arm around the shoulder. I would also disagree with the assessment that the ground will keep you warmer than the air. Wilderness survival techniques always advise getting off the ground if possible because it draws the heat out of your body.

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 30, 2013

King Neptune said:
At 50F the temperature is ot an issue. If it's just a matter of waiting a few hours, and the injured one is asleep, then boredom would be the only problem. When people are asleep, the sensation of temperature stops until the temperature gets into the uncomfortable range under 35 F.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that statement. Blacbird seems to have been entirely correct: the CDC specifically notes that hypothermia can set in at much warmer temperatures:
http://emergency.cdc.gov/disasters/winter/staysafe/hypothermia.asp

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 30, 2013

Patrick.S said:
Lying on top of a person with serious injuries would probably be a mistake. If the person is dry and has decent all weather gear at 50 degrees, I think you would be better off maybe huddling with an arm around the shoulder. I would also disagree with the assessment that the ground will keep you warmer than the air. Wilderness survival techniques always advise getting off the ground if possible because it draws the heat out of your body.

Given that the non-trivial injuries are at extremities (head and arm), I think lying on top of the person is a viable option. However, what you're describing about the ground vs. the air is what my initial thoughts were, as well. I was always taught that the ground was a real problem when it came to keeping warm.

King Neptune · Apr 30, 2013

Quinn_Inuit said:
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that statement. Blacbird seems to have been entirely correct: the CDC specifically notes that hypothermia can set in at much warmer temperatures:
http://emergency.cdc.gov/disasters/winter/staysafe/hypothermia.asp

It is true that people with metabolic problems can become hypothermic at any temperature under normal body temperature, but an otherwise healthy person with an injury from falling will have no problem down to about 35.

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 30, 2013

King Neptune said:
It is true that people with metabolic problems can become hypothermic at any temperature under normal body temperature, but an otherwise healthy person with an injury from falling will have no problem down to about 35.

Even with a modest amount of blood loss and a moderate or severe concussion? That strikes me as inimical to good internal heat regulation.

Myrealana · Apr 30, 2013

Having done much hiking in the Rockies, I would say that hypothermia is not a real concern at those temperatures. Shock combined with a mild chill can be dangerous, but an unconscious person who isn't losing blood probably isn't going to be suffering from shock. Besides, if there are not many plants around, and assuming the sun was out, the ground he's laying on may well be warmer than the air around it. When we are out hiking, if we get a chill, one of the things we will do is lean up against a rock on the sunny side of the hill.

If I were in that situation, I would put my jacket over him and worry more about making some kind of a signal to make sure the incoming rescue can find us before dark -- that's when cold will become an issue. That, and checking him frequently to make sure he's still breathing and hasn't developed new symptoms.

Patrick.S · Apr 30, 2013

Myrealana said:
Having done much hiking in the Rockies, I would say that hypothermia is not a real concern at those temperatures. Shock combined with a mild chill can be dangerous, but an unconscious person who isn't losing blood probably isn't going to be suffering from shock. Besides, if there are not many plants around, and assuming the sun was out, the ground he's laying on may well be warmer than the air around it. When we are out hiking, if we get a chill, one of the things we will do is lean up against a rock on the sunny side of the hill.

If I were in that situation, I would put my jacket over him and worry more about making some kind of a signal to make sure the incoming rescue can find us before dark -- that's when cold will become an issue. That, and checking him frequently to make sure he's still breathing and hasn't developed new symptoms.

A very good point. It depends greatly on time of year and weather. Stone has a great thermal mass, which means it soaks up either heat or cold. It will be the last thing to warm up in the spring but once it is warm it radiates heat for a very long time.

GeorgeK · Apr 30, 2013

Quinn_Inuit said:
Given that the non-trivial injuries are at extremities (head and arm), I think lying on top of the person is a viable option. However, what you're describing about the ground vs. the air is what my initial thoughts were, as well. I was always taught that the ground was a real problem when it came to keeping warm.

Lying on top of the person who is already unconscious and sounds like significant blood loss will compress their chest to the point that they might not be able to breathe the exra deep breaths that they need to compensate for reduced oxygen carrying capacity due to blood loss. The person should lay beside the patient, draped over them as much as possible without hindering breathing and using their body to shield the patient from the prevailing wind while maximizing sun exposure.

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 30, 2013

GeorgeK said:
Lying on top of the person who is already unconscious and sounds like significant blood loss will compress their chest to the point that they might not be able to breathe the exra deep breaths that they need to compensate for reduced oxygen carrying capacity due to blood loss. The person should lay beside the patient, draped over them as much as possible without hindering breathing and using their body to shield the patient from the prevailing wind while maximizing sun exposure.

Good point. I'd forgotten about the potential issue with chest compression. What about lying beneath the person, though, to protect them from heat loss via the ground? Not worth it?

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 30, 2013

Myrealana said:
Having done much hiking in the Rockies, I would say that hypothermia is not a real concern at those temperatures. Shock combined with a mild chill can be dangerous, but an unconscious person who isn't losing blood probably isn't going to be suffering from shock. Besides, if there are not many plants around, and assuming the sun was out, the ground he's laying on may well be warmer than the air around it. When we are out hiking, if we get a chill, one of the things we will do is lean up against a rock on the sunny side of the hill.

If I were in that situation, I would put my jacket over him and worry more about making some kind of a signal to make sure the incoming rescue can find us before dark -- that's when cold will become an issue. That, and checking him frequently to make sure he's still breathing and hasn't developed new symptoms.

Those are good points. If someone has a moderate concussion, though, isn't shock pretty likely? The blood loss is non-trivial, but probably only half a liter or so on a large teenage boy. So enough to be noticeable, but not enough to cause shock on its own.

GeorgeK · Apr 30, 2013

Quinn_Inuit said:
Those are good points. If someone has a moderate concussion, though, isn't shock pretty likely? The blood loss is non-trivial, but probably only half a liter or so on a large teenage boy. So enough to be noticeable, but not enough to cause shock on its own.

Yes injuries compound. Shock is a reasonable concern for your scenario. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to lay on the ground an hold an unconscious person on top of yourself. I suppose you could sit, sort of spooning them keeping them in the sun, but part of treating for shock is not elevating their head, so again, I think it'd be safer to lie next to them blocking the wind, adding some warmth and keeping them in the sun

blacbird · Apr 30, 2013

King Neptune said:
At 50F the temperature is ot an issue.

Yes it is. Read my preceding post. Hypothermia has been fatal at temperatures 10 or 15 degrees warmer, especially if conditions are wet and/or windy. Hypothermia is less likely if people are mobile, but that's precisely the problem in this scenario.

caw

jclarkdawe · Apr 30, 2013

So much of this depends upon how knowledgeable the people are.

First question is dealing with dampness. Moisture wicks away body heat. This includes blood. You need to dry out the moisture as much as possible. Moss is good at this. If bleeding is still active, I'd pack with moss to soak up the blood and help keep the clothing dry.

Next is dealing with wind currents. Wind carries heat away from the body, so you need to get out of the wind. A rock, ditch, roots of a tree, whatever will provide physical shelter is important to find. The smaller the area of still air around a person, the easier it is to heat that area with body heat.

Put the person into a sheltered area, and then cover with branches with leaves on them. In summer it doesn't matter, and in winter you would use pine boughs. The thicker and deeper you can layer these branches, the better off you are. Even without an ax or knife, you can strip small branches from a tree.

In winter, a snow cave can be very effective shelter. If the area is rocky, then you use rocks to provide shelter.

This sounds like they're above the tree line. Every hundred feet you can get down improves your chances of surviving. And definitely about tree line, wind is the big killer. You've got to get out of the wind.

Use your jacket to provide the injured person protection, or draped over both people. Work at keeping the injured person awake and responding. Activity every half an hour or so will help keep up body temperature.

Reality is that usually moving as little as a hundred feet will usually find better shelter. But the uninjured person can do some traveling to get things like branches. Understand that you need to look at anything that improves your condition. Improving your condition 5% might be all you need to survive.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

cornflake · May 1, 2013

Not to harp or anything, but I don't think the Donner Party had all this 'oh, but is it better if we lay on them or they lay on us' fretting.

Just, you know, saying.

Quinn_Inuit · May 1, 2013

jclarkdawe said:
So much of this depends upon how knowledgeable the people are.

First question is dealing with dampness. Moisture wicks away body heat. This includes blood. You need to dry out the moisture as much as possible. Moss is good at this. If bleeding is still active, I'd pack with moss to soak up the blood and help keep the clothing dry.

Next is dealing with wind currents. Wind carries heat away from the body, so you need to get out of the wind. A rock, ditch, roots of a tree, whatever will provide physical shelter is important to find. The smaller the area of still air around a person, the easier it is to heat that area with body heat.

Put the person into a sheltered area, and then cover with branches with leaves on them. In summer it doesn't matter, and in winter you would use pine boughs. The thicker and deeper you can layer these branches, the better off you are. Even without an ax or knife, you can strip small branches from a tree.

In winter, a snow cave can be very effective shelter. If the area is rocky, then you use rocks to provide shelter.

This sounds like they're above the tree line. Every hundred feet you can get down improves your chances of surviving. And definitely about tree line, wind is the big killer. You've got to get out of the wind.

Use your jacket to provide the injured person protection, or draped over both people. Work at keeping the injured person awake and responding. Activity every half an hour or so will help keep up body temperature.

Reality is that usually moving as little as a hundred feet will usually find better shelter. But the uninjured person can do some traveling to get things like branches. Understand that you need to look at anything that improves your condition. Improving your condition 5% might be all you need to survive.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

This strikes me as excellent advice, thank you. I'm not going to be able to implement all of it for a variety of plot-based reasons, but I'll take what steps I can. I may even have a character mentally regret that she can't take some of these steps, just to make sure any hypothetical readers are aware that what the character ends up doing is sub-optimal, but forced by circumstance, and that they shouldn't do exactly what my character did if they're in this situation. (If I can pull it off without sounding stilted, that is.)

Two follow-up questions:
Would it be smarter to put the mildly injured character's jacket between the moderately injured character and the ground, rather than on top of him?
The mildly injured character knows help will arrive in 2-4 hours, as she's just sent someone to get that help. Given that time frame, is it still worth her effort to prepare cover? There aren't any plants available nearby (and she's not well enough to do too much moving), but there are lots of roughly baseball-size loose rocks.

Quinn_Inuit · May 1, 2013

cornflake said:
Not to harp or anything, but I don't think the Donner Party had all this 'oh, but is it better if we lay on them or they lay on us' fretting.

Just, you know, saying.

Bulls-eye? Savage. A civilized person would use Wango Tango Sauce.

So you're stuck on a mountain...

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