Beta-reading for Someone with 0 Posts

AlexHurst · Apr 10, 2013

So, I added myself to the roster yesterday and had a few people hit me up on the offer, which is nice, but I have a question, since AW seems to be a very active community.

If someone simply is lurking about, with zero posts to their username, and asks for a beta, should I bother? I feel like it would be taking away from the community of people who do their share and give a lot back. In particular, this person has been a member since 200*, so it's not exactly like they're a newbie.

I'm just curious about the opinions of fellow betas and also authors who need betas and are active members on AW... :idea:

Karen Junker · Apr 10, 2013

It's funny you should ask. I have memory issues, so I kept beta'ing for newbies for years. I rarely got any kind of response at all, when I had read at least a first chapter and critiqued it for them. I finally added it up and I've critted for around 85 different people, of which only around a dozen have ever responded.

So I guess what I'm saying is, from now on I plan to critique for people I've gotten to know a little bit and trust that they'll at least tell me if my critiques are too harsh or if they appreciate it or whatever. I'm mostly a lurker on the forums, but I am in chat every day, so I will sometimes crit a short piece for someone I've met in there.

Crayonz · Apr 10, 2013

My rule of thumb is to not beta for anyone until they have at least 50 posts. (Getting to know them a little before hand is also a must for me, but that's just personal preference.) If someone is serious about getting feedback on their work, the simple requirement of being a somewhat active member isn't going to be an issue. If they don't have the patience to reach 50 posts, then I don't have the patience to spend hours beta-ing their work.

AlexHurst · Apr 10, 2013

Karen Junker said:
I finally added it up and I've critted for around 85 different people, of which only around a dozen have ever responded.

That's even more disheartening Karen! It's a good thing to keep in mind though. I'll just send them a polite decline then.

Maryn · Apr 11, 2013

I absolutely will not beta for someone who's not active here. Not only do I demand a decent post count, but for me, it's got to be someone I've seen around, especially at the "serious" writing boards, not just the goofing around ones. I also expect to see samples of their work at SYW.

It's a fair amount of effort to beta read, even when the work is fun, and the response has been underwhelming too many times for me to get stung again. Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel.

Maryn, whose opinion has not changed

Bushrat · Apr 11, 2013

I'd neither send my manuscript to somebody with fewer than a couple hundred posts to beta read, nor do I beta for total newbies (although I just made a exception with the latter, and it worked out fine).
Generally, I want to see a fair bit of give and take as far as critting goes. I don't expect the people I beta for to also become my test readers, but I do want to see them critting other people's work because we're not here to provide a manuscript grooming service, but to all learn from each other.

Maryn · Apr 11, 2013

Exactly, Bushrat. If I see someone who's interacting with the community, who's doing critiques or responding to other people's requests for betas, that suggests a writer who isn't her just to take but also to give.

(Great avatar, BTW.)

Maryn, who hasn't done a beta in a while

AlexHurst · Apr 11, 2013

Maryn said:
I absolutely will not beta for someone who's not active here. Not only do I demand a decent post count, but for me, it's got to be someone I've seen around, especially at the "serious" writing boards, not just the goofing around ones. I also expect to see samples of their work at SYW.

It's a fair amount of effort to beta read, even when the work is fun, and the response has been underwhelming too many times for me to get stung again. Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel.

Maryn, whose opinion has not changed

Maryn, thanks for the link to that thread. I agree with almost all of the points there.

I've been beta-ing for a fiction group on Facebook (short stories) and the quality has been really top-notch. I've been sort of surprised by the drop in quality (from what I've seen) on AW, particularly from writers who say (and this is a warning sign) "It's pretty much polished up." or "It's basically finished, I just need a set of fresh eyes."

Maybe I'm just being overly harsh because of my literary training- it's hard for me to dumb down to read a YA novel, for example (even though I've accepted the project of one, because the author is very nice and the story seems interesting; I have yet to read it, so maybe it will surprise me!) and I notice things like cliches and poor word choice a little too easily, to the point I can't focus on the narrative.

I never thought I was a literary snob until I started doing beta reads, haha. Maybe I actually am. :Ssh:

Chasing the Horizon · Apr 11, 2013

AlexHurst said:
it's hard for me to dumb down to read a YA novel

Really? I don't think that kind of elitist talk will get you very far on AW.

katci13 · Apr 11, 2013

AlexHurst said:
it's hard for me to dumb down to read a YA novel

It's not the genre, it's the writer.

But to respond to the original post...I only beta for my writing buddies now. We know each other so I know they can handle whatever I dish out. Likewise, if I ask them for help, I know they won't leave me hanging.

AlexHurst · Apr 11, 2013

Chasing the Horizon said:
Really? I don't think that kind of elitist talk will get you very far on AW.

I'm not trying to sound like an elitist. Like I said at the beginning of the sentence, it's due to my literary training. I've read nothing but 'literary fiction' for the last ten years, so teenage prose about teenage problems is hard for me to grasp now. I'm not saying YA is a 'dumb' genre at all. I just said 'dumb down' in terms of my needing to remember the writing is meant for young readers, and not to put my analytical/critical reading cap on it. Sorry if that offended you~

However, I do agree with katci13, there are plenty of YA novels that I've truly loved that have been written in a smart way, use challenging vocabulary and deal with complex themes. Just not all of them.

Crayonz · Apr 11, 2013

AlexHurst said:
However, I do agree with katci13, there are plenty of YA novels that I've truly loved that have been written in a smart way, use challenging vocabulary and deal with complex themes. Just not all of them.

Bolding mine.

It's also a good to remember that not all of us are aiming for that. I don't give one hoot about "complex themes" (the less of those there are, the happier I am), vocabulary (a few new words are fine, but if I have to look up something every page, that book will become a door stopper fast) and being "written in a smart way" (what's that mean, anyways?). I want a good story well told. As a reader and a writer. While I can't speak for others, I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.

If I am, feel free to tell me to shove off.

AlexHurst · Apr 12, 2013

Crayonz said:
It's also a good to remember that not all of us are aiming for that. I don't give one hoot about "complex themes" (the less of those there are, the happier I am), vocabulary (a few new words are fine, but if I have to look up something every page, that book will become a door stopper fast) and being "written in a smart way" (what's that mean, anyways?). I want a good story well told. As a reader and a writer. While I can't speak for others, I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I am, feel free to tell me to shove off.

Hi Crayonz!

Yes, I know. Everyone has their own tastes.

I just meant for the most part, YA has failed to interest me, though there have been exceptions. For example, I LOVE Jane Yolen's books, which are YA, but have complex themes (slavery, both of humans and of sentient creatures being one), challenging vocabulary (you can understand new words via context, so don't need a dictionary, but it feels like the author knows what a synonym is) AND are written in a smart way (ie- uses many different methods of delivery for plot, via dialog, foreshadowing, non-linear conflict, etc). That's all I meant.

But yes, I just want a story well-told. I'm sure most people do. You're not the only one!

Buffysquirrel · Apr 12, 2013

Stop digging.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 12, 2013

AlexHurst said:
Maybe I'm just being overly harsh because of my literary training- it's hard for me to dumb down to read a YA novel, for example

While I wouldn't dream of comparing my literary training to yours, I hardly think reading a YA novel requires one to "dumb down."

Nor do the many YA authors and readers here.

Calla Lily · Apr 12, 2013

Really, AlexHurst? You're really saying that "literary" writing is smarter and better-written than genre, and that AW SYW is of lower quality than writing on a different site, and that you have to "dumb down" to read YA. And now in subsequent posts you're trying to spin that statement.

You've just insulted a large percentage of the members here. You want to rethink about how you're coming across here. Hard.

sarahdalton · Apr 12, 2013

You can't have too many challenging words in YA because the books are aimed at teenagers. They have to be able to read and understand it.

I'm not sure dumbing down is the right phrase to use there. There's no harm in disliking YA, but that's quite a harsh turn of phrase.

There has to be a mutual respect between beta and writer. We all start from somewhere, and we all have terrible manuscripts in our past. No matter what part of the journey the writer is on -- from newb to expert-- the beta comments should come from a place of positivity, not negativity.

Or maybe I'm just an old optimist.

thebloodfiend · Apr 12, 2013

You do realize that YA and literary fiction are not exclusive terms, right? YA is not a genre. And the definition of literary varies from person to person. In school, literary fiction was simply "important" writing with literary merit. We've got some saying both 1984 (science-fiction/adult fiction) and Catcher in the Rye (contemporary/young adult) are literary.

For all the flaws in this article, I think this is spot on for people like you:

But a fiction writer ought to engage with other parts of the culture, too. This includes reading outside one’s genre — I happen to favor sci-fi and mystery, but I think it’s fine for literary writers to read YA, romance, fantasy or whatever they please. Literary writers are in the privileged position of being permitted to raid any genre for tools to subvert and repurpose. ... Let’s face it: Literary fiction is fucking boring. It really is. It’s a genre as replete with clichés as any. And when you’re as deeply immersed in it as many of us are, it’s all too easy to stop noticing the clichés. They no longer stand out. They’re just What People Do. And so, we do them. If a writer of literary fiction wants to be great, she needs to poke her head up out of the echo chamber every now and then and absorb the genuine peculiarity of human striving. And that means reading stuff that is not literary fiction, and, sometimes, not reading at all.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/29/most_contemporary_literary_fiction_is_terrible/

But I've never come across a definition of literary fiction that I agree with. It and mainstream/commercial all meld together when you've got some calling Jodi Picoult's newest novel literary. Not all YA is written the same. Neither is all AF. I've come across simply written unchallenging AF and YA without much in the way of complex themes. And you know what? If I wanted "challenging vocabulary" (a term I haven't heard since elementary school), I'd pick up some flash cards and go back to AP English Lang/Lit. Or I'd sign up for one of the English classes I was exempted from. And if I wanted complex themes, I'd watch Degrassi. Really.

Those things are sometimes a plus, but a) they don't always mean the book will be good, and b) sometimes they detract from the material.

buz · Apr 12, 2013

[redacted stuff, in light of the post immediately following

]

sarahdalton said:
You can't have too many challenging words in YA because the books are aimed at teenagers. They have to be able to read and understand it.

I don't think teenage readers are seriously lacking in vocabulary compared to adult readers, are they?

Barely-pertinent question: does an individual typically gain that much more vocabulary after teenagerdom? (honest question) I really can't think of many words I know now that I did not know as a teenager, and the ones I have learned more recently are mostly the kind that are only useful in particular contexts (apotropaic, ithyphallic, siphuncle, acetabulum, etc). But I realize this is anecdotal blahcakes.

To me, it seems you'd mainly write a YA book with the same vocabulary as an adult one--that it would vary by author, rather than category. Is that wrong, though? (As I've said, I have a lot of catching up to do in terms of familiarity with YA...sadly...

)

[oh, er, to answer the original question, I'd be leery of beta reading for anyone I don't at least recognize (or having my stuff read, too, for that matter)...I've been engaged in such things before and it usually ends with a sudden cutoff in communication, for some reason

But then, I've also had great readers with very few posts here...but they were around, to at least some degree...luck might factor in

]

AlexHurst · Apr 12, 2013

An Apology.

callalily61 said:
Really, AlexHurst? You're really saying that "literary" writing is smarter and better-written than genre, and that AW SYW is of lower quality than writing on a different site, and that you have to "dumb down" to read YA. And now in subsequent posts you're trying to spin that statement.

You've just insulted a large percentage of the members here. You want to rethink about how you're coming across here. Hard.

You're right. I'm sorry.

The truth of the matter is, I've just spent the last three hours beta-ing an AW author's YA novel and I've really been enjoying it. Like really. I spoke too soon, and said things too harshly. So I do apologize.

I did not mean the phrase 'dumbing down' in a derogatory manner on anyone or their works. I use this phrase all the time, though maybe I won't anymore. I didn't realize how many people would jump up in arms over it. I was merely talking about the fact that when I've been reading things like Story of the Stone, The Tale of Genji, Snow Country, and others for the last few years, suddenly being thrown into a YA novel was very hard. I still had my critical reading brain on, and YA came off, in that light, as being overly simple.

I know this isn't true, but that's how I felt.

I don't think literary writing is "smarter" or "better." But literary writing is 'written' in a different way than most fiction. And it's just what I'm used to.

In any case, what I meant in terms of the FB group was not that the writing was better, but the stuff I beta'ed seemed more polished than the few things I happened to see about. I guess I clicked on the wrong threads. That too, needs to ramified, as the YA novel I am reading now is VERY polished, and it has been a pleasure to beta.

In any case, I do regret the statements. To all here and across the board, I apologize.

AW Admin · Apr 12, 2013

AlexHurst said:
In any case, I do regret the statements. To all here and across the board, I apologize.

Thanks. We're dead serious about respecting your fellow writer here.

Calla Lily · Apr 12, 2013

Thank you.

sarahdalton · Apr 12, 2013

buzhidao said:
[redacted stuff, in light of the post immediately following ]

I don't think teenage readers are seriously lacking in vocabulary compared to adult readers, are they?

Barely-pertinent question: does an individual typically gain that much more vocabulary after teenagerdom? (honest question) I really can't think of many words I know now that I did not know as a teenager, and the ones I have learned more recently are mostly the kind that are only useful in particular contexts (apotropaic, ithyphallic, siphuncle, acetabulum, etc). But I realize this is anecdotal blahcakes.

To me, it seems you'd mainly write a YA book with the same vocabulary as an adult one--that it would vary by author, rather than category. Is that wrong, though? (As I've said, I have a lot of catching up to do in terms of familiarity with YA...sadly... )

[oh, er, to answer the original question, I'd be leery of beta reading for anyone I don't at least recognize (or having my stuff read, too, for that matter)...I've been engaged in such things before and it usually ends with a sudden cutoff in communication, for some reason ]

Well, the thing with your teenage years is that they start at thirteen and last up to nineteen, and to me there is a dramatic change between a person of thirteen compared to nineteen. Of course middle-grade is more catered to the 9-13 (I think, I'm not American so I don't know exactly) and YA is more 14+ but even still, I'm pretty sure my vocab changed a lot between 14 and now.

Everyone's different though. I just keep vocab in mind. I want my book to fit into the same sort of 'voice' as other YA books, so that's what I write.

There are plenty of teens who read adult books. It just depends on the person I suppose.

Anyway, feel like I'm de-railing.

Chasing the Horizon · Apr 12, 2013

AlexHurst said:
I don't think literary writing is "smarter" or "better." But literary writing is 'written' in a different way than most fiction. And it's just what I'm used to.

Hey, I find it jarring to pick up a YA novel too. There are some really different writing techniques favored in that genre than in the adult SF/F and adult contemporary/lit fic I usually read. We all have genre preferences (sometimes very strong ones). It's just important to phrase those preferences in a way that is still respectful to the people who write those genres.

In any case, I do regret the statements. To all here and across the board, I apologize.

Thanks. I'm sure no-one will hold a grudge.

Jess Haines · Apr 12, 2013

Maryn said:
I absolutely will not beta for someone who's not active here. Not only do I demand a decent post count, but for me, it's got to be someone I've seen around, especially at the "serious" writing boards, not just the goofing around ones. I also expect to see samples of their work at SYW.

It's a fair amount of effort to beta read, even when the work is fun, and the response has been underwhelming too many times for me to get stung again. Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel.

Maryn, whose opinion has not changed

Same. I used to offer to beta quite often. Not anymore--and not just because of the contraints on my time.

Beta-reading for Someone with 0 Posts

AlexHurst

Karen Junker

Live a little. Write a lot.

Crayonz

Tribal Flame Warden Ducky

AlexHurst

Maryn

Baaa!

Bushrat

reaching for the sun

Maryn

Baaa!

AlexHurst

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

katci13

creative genie

AlexHurst

Crayonz

Tribal Flame Warden Ducky

AlexHurst

Buffysquirrel

Deleted member 42

Calla Lily

On hiatus

sarahdalton

thebloodfiend

Cory

buz

edits all posts at least four times

AlexHurst

AW Admin

Calla Lily

On hiatus

sarahdalton

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

Jess Haines

Boldly going nowhere in particular.