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theDolphin
04-11-2013, 05:24 AM
Not sure if anyone's seen this article in The Nation yet, but I think it's worthy of discussion and thought - a real "must read" - and I wanted to share it with you guys.

My So-Called 'Post-Feminist' Life in Arts and Letters (http://www.thenation.com/article/173743/my-so-called-post-feminist-life-arts-and-letters) by Deborah Copaken Kogan.

Thought this would be the right area of the forum to post it. Hope I'm right. :)

Bogna
04-11-2013, 09:14 AM
Beautiful article. It brought a tear to my eye. I really like it when someone who is well known calls out slut-shamers (and CNN).

DennisB
04-11-2013, 05:53 PM
This is a classic case of "he said/she said," or the effects of perspective and prejudice on perception.
I read Kogan's piece in The Nation and essentially took her side. Then I noted the two rebuttals by reviewers who had panned Shutterbabe. Those rebuttals seemed pretty convincing in their own right.

So (noting that the book is in neither of our two public libraries), I brought it up on Amazon and examined the first chapter. Kogan makes it clear and she engages in "sleeping her way to the front," and doesn't know an RPG from MPG in the beginning. (My wife points out that later chapters may indeed focus on the difficult task of videographing wars fought by men.)

But it seems the criticism is valid (the book, at least. Whether later criticism of her conduct is valid another matter.).

Phaeal
04-11-2013, 06:08 PM
Good article. Thanks for the link!

Dylan was right, and my friend is also right when she says, "If you don't hop (get loudly and eloquently pissed off), nobody pays attention. Ya gotta hop."

juniper
04-12-2013, 02:29 AM
Depressing article. Interesting (not really) that women/men are reading it differently.

This part, not about her at all, is just sad.

"It's 2013, the day I sit down, with trepidation, to write this. The Times's obituary for Yvonne Brill, renowned rocket scientist, winner of the National Medal of Technology and Innovation, leads with, "She made a mean beef stroganoff, followed her husband from job to job and took eight years off from work to raise three children. 'The world's best mom,' her son Matthew said."

The past is not gone. Or as Faulkner wrote, "The past is never dead. It's not even past." Until it is, we should not be expected to get over it."

CrastersBabies
04-12-2013, 02:40 AM
Depressing article. Interesting (not really) that women/men are reading it differently.

Yeah, not surprising. Also very disheartening.

Bogna
04-12-2013, 04:21 AM
I read Kogan's piece in The Nation and essentially took her side. Then I noted the two rebuttals by reviewers who had panned Shutterbabe. Those rebuttals seemed pretty convincing in their own right.

So (noting that the book is in neither of our two public libraries), I brought it up on Amazon and examined the first chapter. Kogan makes it clear and she engages in "sleeping her way to the front," and doesn't know an RPG from MPG in the beginning. (My wife points out that later chapters may indeed focus on the difficult task of videographing wars fought by men.)

But it seems the criticism is valid (the book, at least. Whether later criticism of her conduct is valid another matter.).

Slut-shamming is not legitimate rebuttle. I don't understand why it matters how she made her way to the top.

ap123
04-12-2013, 03:42 PM
Depressing article. Interesting (not really) that women/men are reading it differently.

This part, not about her at all, is just sad.

"It's 2013, the day I sit down, with trepidation, to write this. The Times's obituary for Yvonne Brill, renowned rocket scientist, winner of the National Medal of Technology and Innovation, leads with, "She made a mean beef stroganoff, followed her husband from job to job and took eight years off from work to raise three children. 'The world's best mom,' her son Matthew said."

The past is not gone. Or as Faulkner wrote, "The past is never dead. It's not even past." Until it is, we should not be expected to get over it."

Unfreakingreal. :(


Slut-shamming is not legitimate rebuttle.

Agree. I had the same impression as I read.

Jamesaritchie
04-12-2013, 05:46 PM
Slut-shamming is not legitimate rebuttle. I don't understand why it matters how she made her way to the top.

Fortunately, a lot of people do understand why it matters.

Rachel77
04-12-2013, 05:51 PM
Depressing article. Interesting (not really) that women/men are reading it differently.

This part, not about her at all, is just sad.

"It's 2013, the day I sit down, with trepidation, to write this. The Times's obituary for Yvonne Brill, renowned rocket scientist, winner of the National Medal of Technology and Innovation, leads with, "She made a mean beef stroganoff, followed her husband from job to job and took eight years off from work to raise three children. 'The world's best mom,' her son Matthew said."

The past is not gone. Or as Faulkner wrote, "The past is never dead. It's not even past." Until it is, we should not be expected to get over it."

I found this (http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2013/04/01/guest-post-physicist-dies-made-great-chili/)yesterday, by a writer who was irked by the Times obit and did a parody one for Albert Einstein. He made great chili. Oh yeah, and did some science-y things.

thebloodfiend
04-12-2013, 06:44 PM
The writers she brought up commented in the section below. And she replied. They were not very pleasant, tbh. Especially the one who made a big deal about all the sex Kogan has had. Kogan gave both very level headed responses.

djf881
04-14-2013, 05:17 PM
Slut-shamming is not legitimate rebuttle. I don't understand why it matters how she made her way to the top.

It seems to me that Kogan finally hit the bestseller list, and now she's out to settle scores, but she's still not nearly as respected as Janet Reitman.

It's not about whether she was sleeping around; it's about the book she chose to write. Her war-journalism memoir was also a sex memoir, and Janet Reitman and Daniel Mendelssohn were critical of that approach.

I haven't read "Shutterbabe," so I'll reserve judgment, but I thought Kogan came off kind of crazy when she accused Janet Reitman of libel.

She also seems incredibly entitled and self-aggrandizing. Her publishers have apparently gotten her onto the Today Show for all of her books. She's had NYT features written about her. And she's biting the hand and insisting that she deserves more. It's really hard to be sympathetic toward her plight.

Amadan
04-14-2013, 06:11 PM
I don't know about the slut-shaming - I haven't read her book, and I haven't read the rebuttals yet - but I am surprised no one here has commented on this (http://www.salon.com/2001/03/02/authors/). I mean, seriously, she called a reviewer, at home, because she didn't like his review? (Supposedly she just wanted his email address so she could email him with her grievances, but do you really doubt she was also hoping to engage him over the phone?) She emails the editor of the NYT Book Review to complain that he hasn't reviewed any of her books?

I mean, even if the review was a total hack job, how does that not fall under the category of "Authors behaving badly" that everyone here is normally quick to condemn?

Medievalist
04-14-2013, 06:32 PM
I mean, even if the review was a total hack job, how does that not fall under the category of "Authors behaving badly" that everyone here is normally quick to condemn?

Yes.

Because of the article, I read her book. I found her self-aggrandizing. I couldn't finish Shutterbabe without having to stop reading on a frequent basis because the narrator/author was annoying and hypocritical. I persevered, but found it underwhelming.

Kogan's book is in fact aptly titled.

I'd rather read something about Dickey Chappelle like Fire in the Wood (http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Wind-Dickey-Chapelle-Bluejacket/dp/B007PMA0FQ).

AshleyEpidemic
04-14-2013, 07:16 PM
She also seems incredibly entitled and self-aggrandizing. Her publishers have apparently gotten her onto the Today Show for all of her books. She's had NYT features written about her. And she's biting the hand and insisting that she deserves more. It's really hard to be sympathetic toward her plight.

This is exactly how I felt. I came away from that article with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Some awful things happened to her, but she seems to be complaining about the good things that have come to her as well because they weren't portrayed in the way she wanted. It comes off extremely personal and off putting (to me and me alone).

As for the obituary bit, wouldn't it be natural for a son to think of his mother as such, before a scientist. I think that would go the same for any child and their parent. Now I could be wrong, but the obituaries for my family that have been in the papers have all been by the family. I guess I just don't understand why a child who loved their parent would perceive said parent as their occupation before them as a parent.

juniper
04-15-2013, 03:48 AM
I agree that her article sounded rather "wah wah wah woe is me" over some things that many people would be happy about - I haven't read "Shutterbabe" so have no opinion on that.


but the obituaries for my family that have been in the papers have all been by the family. I guess I just don't understand why a child who loved their parent would perceive said parent as their occupation before them as a parent.

Have any of them been a "renowned rocket scientist, winner of the National Medal of Technology and Innovation ... " ? Or had some other exceptional accomplishments?

How about starting off like this, as the St Petersburg Times did? http://www.tampabay.com/news/obituaries/yvonne-brill-a-brilliant-rocket-scientist-dies-at-88/2115068 (http://www.tampabay.com/news/obituaries/yvonne-brill-a-brilliant-rocket-scientist-dies-at-88/2115068Her) .

"Yvonne Brill, 88, a brilliant rocket scientist who suspended a promising career to raise three children and then returned to work full time and invented a propulsion system to help keep communications satellites from slipping out of their orbits, died of breast cancer on March 27 in Princeton, N.J. President Barack Obama presented her the National Medal of Technology and Innovation in 2011." And then going on to mention the beef stroganoff.

Her son is an adult, presumably, if she was 88. I would expect a 10-yr-old to mention his mom's cooking first, but not a man in his (?) 60s. Was that really her most impressive accomplishment? I would hope he'd be more proud of her unusual career and honors.

ETA: cleaned up the formatting

AshleyEpidemic
04-15-2013, 06:29 AM
Her son is an adult, presumably, if she was 88. I would expect a 10-yr-old to mention his mom's cooking first, but not a man in his (?) 60s. Was that really her most impressive accomplishment? I would hope he'd be more proud of her unusual career and honors.

I completely get what you saying. I am just not entirely sure that I personally would remember my parents accomplishments before what they did for me. Now I am still young, so things may change.