Beta reading for novice and delicate friends

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Persei

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Recently a friend IRL asked me to check out her work.

I have the piece with me right now, and if I were an editor, I'd be out of red ink. Thing is she recently started writing, and of course, the great majority of us suck at first. Unfortunately for me, she's no exception to the rule but I'm afraid she'll take my critique personally.

I don't have the poker face of lying to her face and saying her work is good when it could use tons of improvement; but she has the habit of taking matters personally and she's still somewhat childish. It's fine for a sixteen years old, I suppose (I am 16 either way), but if she wants a future as a writer she needs to stop thinking any sort of criticism towards her is mean and unjustified.

Dealing with writers who yet have to develop thick skin is one thing, and dealing with writers like this who happen to be close friends is another.

Have you been in this situation before? How did you manage your way out?
 

Cella

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If she asked you for a crit, then I'd assume she is asking for an honest one. Did you establish what kind of feedback specifically she was looking for when you first agreed to it?

Before you go too deep into your evaluation with her, I'd ask her (again, if necessary) if she's looking for plot structure, character development, general interest in the story, etc. If she says, "Just whatever thoughts you had," then you have more leeway to speak in generalities.


I tend to be sensitive and back when I had my best friend read my first work, she was always SO nervous about pointing out issues that she constantly apologized before she even said anything. I know her heart was in the right place because she was trying to protect my feelings, but it also kind of said that she didn't think I could handle the honesty that I was actually looking for.

Good luck and I hope your friendship won't suffer from any of it. :)
 

quicklime

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there's two types of people I work with:

Those I know can be professional about critiques,

and

those who I assume can be professional because I haven't yet found out otherwise.

Group #2 sorts itself out and sometimes I am wrong; I was wasting my time and breath. It happens. In your case, you found out late in the game I guess, and how you extricate yourself will depend on you, her, and the work, I suppose, but if she really isn't up to a critique, you probably want to find a way to wash your hands sooner rather than later..... just my experience, take it for whatever it is worth
 

kaitie

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I've been in a similar situation and I had a couple of things I did to help. First, I spoke of things in more general terms, "I've heard that it's better to do things like..." instead of "You should be doing it like this..." I might be overanalyzing, but my logic is that you aren't saying "I think you're doing it wrong," which can make a person feel self-conscious or embarrassed or threatened. By keeping criticism more general, it sounds less like you are criticizing. Again, this depends on who you're talking about, too. The person in my situation isn't the same person in yours, so this sort of thing might help, or it might not.

The second thing is to approach it on a learning path. I am always kinder and encouraging to newer writers than I am to someone who has been working for a long time and know how to take criticism. That's partly because I think when we're first starting and self-conscious, it's easy to see criticism as a sign that we're just not good at this gig and quit.

I'm not saying lie, I'm saying just to be encouraging. With my students, I'll use phrases like "This is a good start, but I think it can be better if you..." Now, if I'm not having to grade papers and don't have to point out everything wrong, I think the best thing with a new person is to choose a couple of major craft issues and point out those.

If she has a hard time with telling vs. showing, or the dialogue sounds unrealistic, or she writes with a billion adjectives and adverbs, etc., just pick a couple that stand out to you as the biggest issues. When you suggest them as problems, don't just say "This needs work," but offer suggestions as well. I think it's good to be specific because the problem is a lot of times new authors just have no idea where to even begin.

None of this would guarantee she'd take your critique well, but it can help her see the problems in a non-threatening way and hopefully understand ways to improve them.

Just my thoughts.
 

Hamilton

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I think that, for most people who are really new at something, it's best to learn from books and blogs instead of receiving a critique on their extremely immature work right out of the gate. This is because they don't necessarily understand the basic principles of what they are undertaking, or have the vocabulary to describe it. Maybe you could provide your friend with some recommended reading? Pinpoint the major, fundamental issues it looks like she's struggling with and address them before dealing with smaller problems.
 

jjdebenedictis

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I'd say something like, "Hon, I didn't like your story very much, and I can tell you why, but I know you're going to feel pretty hurt about it. So I'm not going to tell you until you decide you're ready to hear it. When you want to know about what I think could be improved, ask me. In the meanwhile, here's the things I think worked really well."

Then I'd list what she got right and what you liked and where she shows promise.

In other words, let her know you saw problems in the manuscript but also let her be in control of whether she hears them. If she's just looking for head-pats and encouragement, then you've given those to her. If she wants a proper critique, she can have that too, but only after she's steeled herself to hear it.

About the only thing I'd be wary of is if she insists immediately that you tell her everything, especially if she seems to be getting upset already. In that case, I'd gently say, "Tomorrow, if you still want me to, I'll tell you everything. But not today. You need to be sure you want to hear this, and right now, I'm worried you're not quite. I'll give you the whole critique tomorrow, if you ask me to, alright?"
 

cornflake

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Now you know for next time that, as above, it's better to clarify what the person is looking for before you agree to that sort of thing.

As you currently find yourself, however, you might try an ugly baby-type response, like, 'you wrote so much, that's certainly an accomplishment,' or 'it's really interesting!'
 

Axordil

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What kaitie said. Find something she did right. Tell her how it would be even more right if she did this, that and the other thing, and explain why. Offer improvements described as "here's a few things you might try."

The most common underlying problem with younger writers is they simply haven't read enough to grasp intuitively what a novel/short story is supposed to "look" like. They haven't internalized the forms and their constituent parts yet. Suggest best-in-class or even just popular books to her in the genres she's interested in exploring.

Thus the sig line.
 
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dangerousbill

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Dealing with writers who yet have to develop thick skin is one thing, and dealing with writers like this who happen to be close friends is another.

I don't envy your position, which is why it's a good policy not to critique friends or relatives.

1. Give an honest critique and lose a friend.

2. Lie to her and remain friends.

3. Tell her you have no time or you've changed your mind about doing the critique and that she should join an experienced crit group. There are many of them online and many local groups.

3a. Middle ground: Refuse, and explain that the novel has some problems and critiquing does not work well among friends. Tell her you don't want to risk your friendship and help her find a crit group.

4. Explain how all novelists have to rewrite and perfect their technique as part of learning the trade, and offer to help.
 

dangerousbill

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I belong to a critique group with a 16 year history. From time to time, new members show up. Whether their work is good, bad, or indifferent, about half of all new people are utterly devastated by the slightest hint that their work isn't the best thing ever committed to paper. They go away and are never seen again.

Now we have a rule that a new member has to attend four meetings before s/he can read her/is own work.
 

Polenth

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Someone new to writing, who is really rather terrible, isn't going to be able to act on a detailed critique. My approach is to recommend basic things (like keep reading and a few main areas of weakness) rather than anything more in-depth.

It's true that if she wants to be published at sixteen she'd need to be writing at an adult level, and handling things like an adult, but you can't force someone to mature. She's either ready or she's not. If she's not, a few more years working at it on her own is likely to do more than any critique could.
 

Tirjasdyn

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I keep a copy of this with me, but I think I'm going to start handing this out to beginners:

“Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take awhile. It’s normal to take awhile. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.”


― Ira Glass
 

Becky Black

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Gah, it's a tough one. I've been in a similar position myself.

I think when there are a lot of problems, because the person is new to the whole writing malarky, you have to pick your battles and do the critique in stages. There are only so many things a person can improve on at once in their writing. If you give them back a crit with every problem marked, from the big picture to the smallest nitpicks it really can make a sensitive person give up on the whole idea of writing. It can make it all a bit too much like school and suck all the fun out of it and make it all into a big painful chore. It's easy to say oh, if someone really wants to be a writer they won't be put off, but let's be realistic, people aren't perfect. Gotta make allowances for that.

I'd say rather than going back to her with everything that is wrong with it, go with the big picture problems first. Like plot, characterisation, that kind of thing. let her know that generally there are other mechanical problems too, with the prose, but don't mark them yet, say that will come later. Getting the story fixed is the first job. The language is the next stage.

And remember the adage. Dude, sucking at something is the first step to becoming sorta good at something. ;)
 

Persei

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Thank you all for the feedback!

Don't tearing the poor girl's dreams apart is a good advice :D

It's not all bad, of course I will point out things I liked (she makes very creative descriptions, for example) and I suppose I'll just search for some material for her to read about her biggest issues... Hopefully she'll put two plus two together.

Later we can talk further about what kind of critique she's looking for.

I kinda have been there. We are just starting, we are excited that we've done something but it's not that good. The difference is that she has a writer friend to ask for help (and I've gotten "famous" for my writing since my play was a hit and stuff).
 
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Layla Nahar

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I'd like to recommend the book "Writing Without Teachers" by Peter Elbow. Ch. 4 is about giving and receiving feedback. Also, have you heard of Milford writing workshop method? You guys could incorporate that.
 

LAgrunion

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As you currently find yourself, however, you might try an ugly baby-type response, like, 'you wrote so much, that's certainly an accomplishment,' or 'it's really interesting!'

:D

Don't tearing the poor girl's dreams apart are a good advice :D

I would like to offer a different take (some would say cynical; I prefer realist). Feel free to disregard, as I am often wrong.

The world is an unfair, cruel place. The earlier one learns that, probably the better. It tempers one's expectations. A lot of people are afraid to tell the truth if it hurts the listener because we're taught to be sensitive to others' feelings and be nice. I get that. The first time my MS got ripped hard, it hurt. A lot. And it still hurts whenever people tell me they dislike my writing, but I know I need to take it because it’s the best way to improve. On the other end, I hate giving negative critiques because I know exactly how bad it feels to get them.

I think ultimately you're not doing anyone a favor by sugar-coating criticism, however well-intended. A softened critique lacks the same impact as a blunt critique. Sometimes impact is exactly what you need to get motivated to improve.

Examples:

(1) "Your story didn't work for me."--As the listener, I may shrug this off.

(2) "Your story is trite, boring, and makes no sense."--This tells me I really need to improve.

There are many people pursuing the arts (writing, music, acting) who end up as the emperor with no clothes. They're no good at it, but nobody has the heart to tell them. So they end up wasting years pursuing something with an extremely low chance of success, all the while harboring the delusion that they have what it takes. Well, not everybody has what it takes. And no, we can't all do whatever we want, despite what parents tell their kids. Athletes know exactly where they stand the moment a game ends. There are far fewer deluded athletes than artists.

Life is short and resources are limited. People tend to be happier when they succeed, and sadder when they fail. Rationally, you’d want to put your time, efforts, and resources into a pursuit where you have the greatest chances of success. To figure out your chances, you need honest feedback. If enough people tell me I suck at X, I will drop X so I can pursue something where I have a better chance of success. Sure, I may defy the odds, but I’d rather play where the odds favor me.

Anyway, this is just my experience, something I didn't realize when I was young and only learned as I got older (middle aged now).

It's not all bad, of course I will point out things I liked (she makes very creative descriptions, for example)

I think your approach is sound.

Being honest means that you point out the good as well as the bad. If you just focus on the bad but ignore the good, you're giving the listener an unrepresentative view of her work. That's a not fair either. If someone is doing something well, they need to know that. If they are anything like me, a small (but sincere) encouragement goes a long way. People make the best decisions if they are as informed as possible.
 

NeuroFizz

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In nearly all cases of a new beta-writer "relationship" (even if it is for one project), I suggest the following:

Agree to crit the first chapter or the first scene only. Do this with sincere reasoning: We need to find out if we are compatible in the endeavor--if the kind of critique I give is the kind you want or need at this stage of your writing career.

Then be fully honest, and encouraging where possible (don't blow smoke up the sphincter).

This will give the writer a sense of how her writing is stacking up, it will give you a chance to contribute but with a limited time involvement, and most important it will let you see her reaction to a crit of a small part of her entire work. In other words, it gives you both power of veto.

Easing into a new beta role with a trial run is even important with first crits of more experienced writers because the things you focus on may not be what the writer is seeking in the crit.

If the first chapter/scene crit works for the writer, you can press on with an equally honest crit of the entire work because you have established the honesty of your critting approach, and the writer has agreed to proceed--with your crit-style fully revealed.
 

Persei

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I typed "are a good advice". Are.

Are.

Oh god.

Fixed it now.

LA, I agree with your approach for the most part. I've been told I'm blunt and honest but that's a good thing because people know I'm not lying when I say something nice (which is why I can be a jerk and still have a social life lol), but I have to walk on egg shells around this friend all the time because she doesn't know how to deal with my honesty, so I while this is the best approach for her to learn, she's still my friend and I don't want to lose the friendship D:

If I was going to critique the work of a writer that has has been around for a while, sure I wouldn't have any problems with it.

And it's too late to ask for just a chapter before beta reading the whole thing. She sent it all in one document...

I'm genuinely thinking of asking her to join the forums, actually. There's nothing in this thread I wouldn't say to her face and she's good at writing and reading in English so it'll be good for her to be around other writers.
 

Axordil

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Persei--

She may have sent it all, but you don't have to mark all of it up. I agree with NeuroFizz: do a bit, do it right, and present as diplomatically as possible. If she can't take it there's no point in wasting any more of your time or hers. If she can, then repeat with the next chapter.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Or maybe if we all stopped using 'the world is a cruel and unfair place' as an excuse to be cruel and unfair....

Nah. Never happen.

There is a certain level of incompetence at which people literally can't see their own incompetence. If your friend's there, nothing you say can be well received. She simply won't get it because she *can't*.

What you might find useful is to find passages in a published work that do what your friend is trying to do in her story, and give them to her to look at. Preferably without you looking over her shoulder. It doesn't take much to lift people out of that blind spot.
 

shadowwalker

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I'm going to go with those who say not to get too detailed, not to give the "full Monty" beta, and definitely mention the things she did right.

Betas have a special place with their writers - we are there to help. We're not there to be the voice of the cold, cruel world - that's for reviews by critics, not critiques by betas. We're there to help the writer become a better writer. And for someone new, this is critical. Particularly when they come asking for help, not just "Oh read this! Don't you think it's great!?!".

Developing a thick skin takes time, just like a real life callous. We also can't expect a writer to suddenly learn all the skills needed - so we help them step by step.
 

Putputt

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I've been in a similar situation and I had a couple of things I did to help. First, I spoke of things in more general terms, "I've heard that it's better to do things like..." instead of "You should be doing it like this..." I might be overanalyzing, but my logic is that you aren't saying "I think you're doing it wrong," which can make a person feel self-conscious or embarrassed or threatened. By keeping criticism more general, it sounds less like you are criticizing. Again, this depends on who you're talking about, too. The person in my situation isn't the same person in yours, so this sort of thing might help, or it might not.

The second thing is to approach it on a learning path. I am always kinder and encouraging to newer writers than I am to someone who has been working for a long time and know how to take criticism. That's partly because I think when we're first starting and self-conscious, it's easy to see criticism as a sign that we're just not good at this gig and quit.

I'm not saying lie, I'm saying just to be encouraging. With my students, I'll use phrases like "This is a good start, but I think it can be better if you..." Now, if I'm not having to grade papers and don't have to point out everything wrong, I think the best thing with a new person is to choose a couple of major craft issues and point out those.

If she has a hard time with telling vs. showing, or the dialogue sounds unrealistic, or she writes with a billion adjectives and adverbs, etc., just pick a couple that stand out to you as the biggest issues. When you suggest them as problems, don't just say "This needs work," but offer suggestions as well. I think it's good to be specific because the problem is a lot of times new authors just have no idea where to even begin.

None of this would guarantee she'd take your critique well, but it can help her see the problems in a non-threatening way and hopefully understand ways to improve them.

Just my thoughts.

This. Honesty does not have to be brutal. It takes no more effort for me to be nice when I give a critique.
 

jjdebenedictis

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I think ultimately you're not doing anyone a favor by sugar-coating criticism, however well-intended. A softened critique lacks the same impact as a blunt critique. Sometimes impact is exactly what you need to get motivated to improve.
As someone who teaches for a living, I have to disagree with this.

A demoralized student stops trying. They never reach their full potential, and that's a freakin' crime.

Humans can go through all kinds of hell as long as they have hope. They can give birth, or survive a concentration camp, or write a good novel. However, to do any of that, they have to keep trying.

Sometimes impact is exactly what a person needs to get motivated to improve--but it really depends on the person. One size does not fit all, with human beings.

Being blunt can be helpful, or it can be detrimental. As a writer, you're in control of your words and can make them do whatever you want them to. So, to be a good critiquer, figure out what this particular person needs to carry on and improve. Then make the wording of your critique provide them with that.
 

Persei

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As someone who teaches for a living, I have to disagree with this.

A demoralized student stops trying. They never reach their full potential, and that's a freakin' crime.

Humans can go through all kinds of hell as long as they have hope. They can give birth, or survive a concentration camp, or write a good novel. However, to do any of that, they have to keep trying.

Sometimes impact is exactly what a person needs to get motivated to improve--but it really depends on the person. One size does not fit all, with human beings.

Being blunt can be helpful, or it can be detrimental. As a writer, you're in control of your words and can make them do whatever you want them to. So, to be a good critiquer, figure out what this particular person needs to carry on and improve. Then make the wording of your critique provide them with that.

I agree with this. I tend to be very blunt, but ultimately it's not my default unless the person is okay with it. My objective is to see my friend improve, even if I have to bite my own tongue and suffer a death due to empoisonment :ROFL:

I spoke to her about the beginning being a bit hard, explained that I read a lot about writing before getting somewhat confident and stuff like that earlier today, and she seemed to take it well... I also explained how I would critique stuff; I'd point out a mistake once, nicely of course, and she would have to notice if it happened again (self awareness is important after all).

This thread seemed to fall in the subject either critiques should be nice or not, but my personal opinion is that it depends on the situation. Some people work harder to improve if they are told they suck, others give up. Beta readers shouldn't have "making people give up" on top of their list, so...

:tongue
 

Amadan

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Oh wow, I can't believe I'm going to argue for being nicer, but...

The world is an unfair, cruel place. The earlier one learns that, probably the better.

Okay, I am a big believer in "Life is hard, wear a helmet" in certain contexts. But I am also a big believer in being honest about whether delivering blunt truths is really you trying to help someone cope better with an unfair world, or you seeing a vulnerable person who will wilt beneath your "honesty."

(1) "Your story didn't work for me."--As the listener, I may shrug this off.

(2) "Your story is trite, boring, and makes no sense."--This tells me I really need to improve.

Or it tells you that that critter is an asshole who hated your story. "This is trite, boring, and makes no sense" is nothing more than a personal reaction - perfectly valid for you, but tells the writer nothing about how to improve it. My response to a crit like that would be to shrug it off, because I'd suspect there would be nothing I could do to change the story that would make you hate it less.

I am a really harsh critter. I have literally made authors cry. I didn't actually intend to do this, and I am genuinely trying to learn to calibrate my crits to the level the person receiving them can handle. I have no patience for people who want nothing but sugarcoating and praise, but telling someone "You suck and this is hopeless" is not in any way helpful.

"Your story didn't work for me" is likewise devoid of constructive suggestions by itself, but at least it serves as an opening to explain why. Whereas I think even the thickest-skinned writer is probably going to view anything coming after "trite, boring, makes no sense" with skepticism.

Now, I definitely have used words like "trite," "boring," and "makes no sense" in critiques. But generally about specific parts of the story. If I were going to categorically label an entire story that way, I'd try to precede it with examples of triteness and boringness.

I've used sharp knives, and I've felt sharp knives. I can tell the difference between a sharp knife wielded by someone who knows what they are talking about, and a sharp knife wielded by someone who just wants to see you bleed.
 
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