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slhuang
03-27-2013, 03:13 AM
We were talking in a recent thread about the tiresome trope of people of Asian descent (Asian-Americans, Asian-Canadians, etc.) being perceived as perpetual foreigners. I thought this might be of interest:

www.racebending.com/v4/blog/olympus-fallen-white-nativism/
(http://www.racebending.com/v4/blog/olympus-fallen-white-nativism/)

This is the second “yellow peril” film released within a year to feature white, non-American actors as Big ol’ American Heroes (TM) while casting [Asian] American actors as the evil, foreign invaders.

[...]

[Describing Red Dawn:]

”To them, [America] is just a place, but to us, this is our home,” barks Hemmsworth the Australian, describing the bad guys played by the American actors.

In the film Olympus has Fallen, white Scottish actor Gerard Butler plays the heroic ex-Secret Service agent who must save the day from Asian American actor Rick Yune’s duplicitous foreign terrorist.
(bolding mine)

Y'know . . . 'cause people who are actually from a foreign country (and are not even using their own accents!) make awesome Patriotic Americans, whereas people who were born and raised in America are relegated to playing the despotic foreigners they prevail against. :Headbang:

There's also a very striking photo of Gerard Butler among a group of actual American troops, who are far more colorful and diverse than Hollywood paints them.

LJD
03-28-2013, 06:26 PM
I know I said people are always surprised when I say my Asian mom was Canadian-born. But to be fair to these people...it is very rare to meet an Asian* person in their fifties--or even forties--in Toronto who is Canadian-born. It's just really that uncommon. My mom, if she were alive today, would be 52.

My mom's family is from southern China and speaks Toisanese--the language spoken by a lot of early Chinese immigrants to North America. At one point it was frequently spoken in Chinatown here. A lot of the workers who were brought over to build the railway were from the same area of China. But I know so few Toisanese people who aren't related to me. My mom had one friend who was, but I honestly can't think of anyone else in Toronto.

Immigrants from Hong Kong started coming in the 1970s or so, and that accounted for most Chinese immigrants here through to the 1990s. The Asian population really exploded in that time. For a long time, Cantonese was the language spoken at most Chinese establishments here, but that is now changing to Mandarin.

There are not many people of Japanese descent here, and while there seems to be a decent-sized Korean community, a lot of this has been relatively recent, in the past decade or two perhaps.

So although this city has an enormous Asian population, it is truly rare to meet someone who's Asian whose family came pre-1970, or someone my mom's age with a local accent. Asian people are as surprised as anyone else. So while I am tired of the surprised responses, I understand them; it's only truly grating when it turns into disbelief. Even myself, I feel some sort of strange kinship when I meet a middle-aged Asian person without an accent--this immediately makes me think of my mother.

Toronto is a city of immigrants. And I don't just mean descendants of immigrants: about half the population was born outside the country. Being the child of immigrants was sort of the norm where I grew up, and we'd have projects in school that would assume you'd have a family member (parent or grandparent) who was an immigrant to whom you could ask questions about their experiences. (Where I grew up, my dad's WASP background really was unusual, and all white people I knew were Jewish...)

It's not surprising, given all that, that my mom felt completely alienated from the Chinese community here. She could barely speak Toisanese, and even if she could, it would have been useless. She couldn't speak Cantonese or Mandarin. She'd go into the Asian mall, and they'd speak to her in one of those languages, and she'd have to say she only spoke English, which was awkward for her. She was brought up outside of Toronto, in a place with a tiny Chinese community, at a time when there was more focus on assimilation. And then she married a white guy, and her parents wouldn't go to the wedding. Her experience was just so vastly different from that of other Asian people her age in Toronto.


I'm not sure if it is different on the West Coast. But yeah, born and raised Asian-Canadians over the age of 40 here? Pretty damn rare. In my generation it is quite common though.

*I'm using it to refer to East Asians, because that's how it is typically used here.

#

None of this is to say, of course, that portrayals of Asians in the media aren't usually disappointing...For starts there are just so few of them. And then they get silly roles like these...

Cyia
03-28-2013, 06:56 PM
it is very rare to meet an Asian* person in their fifties--or even forties--in Toronto who is Canadian-born. It's just really that uncommon.


Really? I never would have thought that. I would have thought Toronto to be a city on par with something like NYC for birth-diversity.

LJD
03-28-2013, 07:47 PM
Really? I never would have thought that. I would have thought Toronto to be a city on par with something like NYC for birth-diversity.

This article is from Vancouver, but it's the best I could find: (http://www.straight.com/news/vancouvers-canadian-born-chinese-their-30s-and-40s-make-their-mark-no-small-thanks-milton-wong)


Sim, Fung, and Yan are all members of a demographic profile that doesn’t get a lot of attention in the media: people of Chinese descent who were born in Canada. According to Statistics Canada, in 2006 there were 381,535 residents of Greater Vancouver who described themselves as belonging to the “Chinese visible minority”. Of those, fewer than 25 percent—90,440 local residents—were born in this country.

A few years ago, Yan conducted demographic research on people of Chinese ancestry who were born in Canada. He learned that they are much younger on average than the rest of the population in this region. There aren’t many Canadian-born seniors of Chinese heritage because a racist immigration law prevented Chinese people from immigrating to this country between 1923 and 1947.

The 2006 census reported that just over 70 percent of those who identified themselves as being Canadian-born in the “Chinese visible minority” category were under 25 years old. Another 12.9 percent were between 25 and 34. Only 8.6 percent were 35 to 44 years of age, and just 4.7 percent were 45 to 54. Fewer than four percent were 55 years and older.

Even after the Chinese Exclusion Act was lifted, Chinese immigration was limited until 1967, 46 years ago. Until then, they were still discriminated against in the immigration policy. If you didn't already have relatives here, I think it was very difficult to come over. (My grandfather came in this time, and he was sponsored by his uncle. Not that he would have fared very well in the points system anyways...) So there aren't many older Canadian-born Chinese.

In 2006, Chinese population in Ontario: 644,465 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadian)
In 1961: only 15,155

i.e. about a 43-fold increase in my mom's lifetime.
Given those numbers, it's not surprising that while I know a lot of people of Chinese origin her age, very few were born here.


I don't know how different it might be in NYC or elsewhere in the USA, though I believe the American immigration laws were similar.

Chris P
03-28-2013, 08:11 PM
This reminds me of the article Paper Tigers (http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/) by Wesley Yang. He provides a lot of different perspectives (the article is quite long) but I thought it was very thought provoking. He says 2/3 of all Asian-Americans are foreign born, so just by playing the odds you'll be right more often than you are wrong by assuming an Asian was born elsewhere. I think it's similar to finding a native-born White African outside of South Africa (or even in SA, for that matter).

The points that stick out to me in Yang's article is the lack of Asians in CEO-level positions (the "Bamboo Ceiling"). Yang chalks this up to many, even American-born, Asians being trained to pass tests rather than to assume leadership roles. I see the same thing here in Africa, and that hampers development, but that's another story.

Rachel Udin
03-28-2013, 11:03 PM
I don't know how different it might be in NYC or elsewhere in the USA, though I believe the American immigration laws were similar.

Most Asians from census reports are in Seattle (the city) and the State of California, (mostly, then, in LA, and SF, I believe.)

There are other populations throughout the US, but that's the highest situation.

Even if I am first gen due to adoption, I still got the "You speak English good" thing and because of adoption, I was told what my racial identity "should" be. --;;

I figured out it was because I was Asian later. 'cause no other people I've run into who were internationally adopted and not Asian have gotten this. Which is just weird. Doesn't that prove it?

Though, as I listed, "The Myth of the Model Minority" also goes over that in quite a bit of detail, though mostly covering the US...

Kim Fierce
03-29-2013, 12:27 AM
I mentioned in another thread that a girl in my school who had white/Korean parents was called "foreigner" by other kids, so I can see that for some reason this is apparently a common judgment.

I do think that while many Asian stereotypes don't seem demeaning on the surface (smart, martial arts bad-ass, rich) it's still got to be so annoying.

In my area, I don't see quite as much Asian discrimination or hear many negative jokes. I always just hear black or Mexican racism, but maybe just because there aren't too many people of any kind of Asian descent in my area?

Rachel Udin
03-31-2013, 08:43 PM
There is the flip side to the "good" stereotype that Asians get.

For example, it has been shown that Asians do NOT make more money than African Americans in the same area. In fact, the majority, since they live in high metropolitan areas *look* like they are making more, but they aren't. They are in fact, often making the same as African Americans and Mexicans for the given area, while white populations in the same area, per capita make more. This means that government aide to those families and the persistent belief, means the group gets ignored.

The whole Martial Arts thing has also been used as prejudice against Asians by making sounds that are annoying. (though mostly to males). Which is ironic, because the other stereotype is that Asians are NOT good at sports. Which means, that people don't consider Martial Arts to be a sport???? It also means that Asians in movies are often cast into singular roles. While Bruce Lee and his son made huge inroads, East Asians have been type cast to those roles. (And South and South East Asians are not included into this stereotype, instead they get the silent yet deadly thing. *rolls eyes*)

The whole smart thing is also detrimental. Because of that belief, many Asians have been shown to be put into ESL, (I've heard stories), but then teachers will ignore problems with Science and Math, believing that the students will automatically do well. I've had people argue to my face that it's "cultural" and sometimes "genetic" which is why I suffered with math and science, but did fine with English (which they are convinced I have issues with). (But then they rub that with, "But you're not really Asian." --;; And then attribute my decent grades to being a Jew--you really can't win if people are that determined, can you?)

And because of these "positive" stereotypes, other minorities tend to think that Asians aren't a "real" minority because they've "made it" to the top tier, despite what is termed the "bamboo ceiling" in corporations. (i.e. A lack of any Asians in the top tier of management positions).

There is also a story about how Asians were treated as neither colored nor White, so they were kicked out of both lines. Whites didn't consider Asians as white and blacks would not consider them "colored".

Plus you have no idea how many time I've had to sit through some ignorant person recite to me and ARGUE with me that Asians have a high suicide rate. (You know, because of grades and stuff). The myth going about trying to jump out the window. <-- Has anyone else had to sit through this crap and no one will back you up?

All in all, the "success" of Asians is a myth perpetuated by making a pecking order based on skin color (general melanin production) usually to both keep Asian peoples and those below them at an economic disadvantage. Asians are a mythical "exception" to the rule.

And I should note that Asia both in Europe and in the Western powers have been bisected into "Middle East" <-- which is a term that makes no sense at all. "South Asia" "South East Asia" and "East Asia" Ignoring "North Asia" (AKA Russia) despite there being populations of Mongoloid descent in the part designated "Asian" part of Russia. (Every population has variation.)

I should add, though the whole, "All the cultures are the same" thing is probably the second most frustrating thing I have to argue down. "All the clothes look the same, the languages sound the same and you Asians can't make an r sound." --;; *fist shake* (The whole perpetual foreigner is the first, mostly because of frequency. At least for me.) This part kinda gets ignored. I've been studying to block it.

I would often warn people that I thought my answers were wrong and they'd copy it anyway.... --;; (And they were wrong... because Math was not my best subject... Reading comprehension and art were.)

@Kim
Did you see the video titled "Asians in the the Library" from a few years back. Yeah. That'll give you the gamut, live, from a person (if it hasn't been taken down... there will be clones). Plus there was a good parody song making fun of the person who said that. Bring your gag protection material.

J.S.F.
04-01-2013, 03:23 AM
It's an unfortunate stereotype Asians have to live through, but I think every minority--either religious or racial--has to go through it at one point or another. That doesn't make it right. It's more like a fact of life.

My father's parents came from a little shtetl (ghetto) in Odessa to Toronto circa 1900 and being a minority (Jewish) they were subjected to the usual religious intolerance of the day. Before them, the Italian crew had come in from various parts of Italy and they got the living crap kicked out of them as well by the Christian (probably Protestant) majority.

Growing up in Toronto, I knew a few kids of Chinese descent and they used to tell me stories of their parents abusing them, whacking them over the head if they didn't get high enough grades in school or excel at something. I didn't know if they were exaggerating or not, to be honest.

As for the stereotype in movies (i.e. rich and smart, clever at computers, or sneering villains who like boinking white mistresses) again, that's an unfortunate racial stereotype, but with Hollywood, these things take time to go away. Fifty years ago you had the typical portrayal of Asians as butlers, maids, apothecaries in herbal medicine shops, laundry owners, etc. There's been some progress, but really, things should change a little faster.

So says the white Jewish guy who lives in Japan, is married to a Japanese national, and everyone thinks my children automatically speak English well or that I'm rich. For the record, my older son (13) speaks English when he feels like it, my younger son (almost 10) isn't interested in learning although he has to (it's part of the school curriculum over here) and I'm struggling to make a living.

I put up with it and rail against the racism I've experienced over the years, but the attitudes here aren't going to change any time soon.

Kim Fierce
04-02-2013, 02:52 AM
I should add, though the whole, "All the cultures are the same" thing is probably the second most frustrating thing I have to argue down. "All the clothes look the same, the languages sound the same and you Asians can't make an r sound." --;; *fist shake* (The whole perpetual foreigner is the first, mostly because of frequency. At least for me.) This part kinda gets ignored. I've been studying to block it.

There are two different sides to this pendulum or something that need to be remedied: Myth One is: most people of a certain group or groups look alike. Myth Two is "What? You think I'm Mexican? I'm Puerto Rican, do I look Mexican to you?" (Yes, I actually heard someone say that. Of course, he is a major smart ass lol. When I got my newest hair cut he asked why I didn't just get a mullet and then claimed it wasn't a gay thing. Surrrree! But I have also heard other similar things in life, such as, no I'm not Chinese I'm Japanese, etc. I think you know what I mean here.)

I really didn't think about the fact that I have heard both of these stated many times by different people over the years until just the other day. The two pendulum swings don't seem to be able to co-exist. We know that all Koreans don't look alike, and all Japanese people don't look alike. Yet there are also supposed to be ways to tell if a person is from Korea or Japan, maybe that is just not by looks alone, though. But especially if someone is not living in/wasn't born in that country, only speaks English, this could be a bit difficult to judge. My exchange student friend from Japan actually had conversations about these things with me but now I forget any of the things we said. That was in 1998! We wrote letters for a while but have now lost touch completely.

I think a well-rounded education about life in general must be the only remedy for all of this.

Rachel I will have to check out that video. In my own writing, the only people who are of Asian descent so far are multi-racial. I have a character who is black and Japanese and another who is Chinese/Japanese/white, it is in the future, and in book one my main character Serenity doesn't know anything about the labels due to government brainwashing. Book Two adds the knowledge of another character, and Serenity is going to learn these kinds of things, along with more knowledge about sexuality and religion. But as I try to promote all kinds of diversity, I would definitely need to make sure I am not offensive on any level!

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 03:00 AM
>get mistaken for Mexican all the time
>I'm Native American
>even Mexicans think I'm Mexican

J.S.F.
04-02-2013, 03:28 AM
I'm white, living in Osaka.

Everyone thinks I'm American. (Born in Toronto)
Everyone thinks I must be Christian and celebrate Christmas. (Nope, wrong on that one, too).
Everyone thinks I have a great job as an English teacher and make oodles of money. (Like my job, make very little cash, and my family is just getting by).

Oh, and everyone thinks I MUST either speak Japanese perfectly or not at all. There's never any in-between.

It's tough being me...:)

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 03:35 AM
#8084785 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8084785)
>Everyone thinks I must be Christian and celebrate Christmas

Please tell me you at least get the traditional Christmas KFC?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/143553/Funny/kfc-barrel.jpg

maxmordon
04-02-2013, 03:45 AM
>get mistaken for Mexican all the time
>I'm Native American
>even Mexicans think I'm Mexican

Well, the look typically associated with Mexicans and most Latinos come from a mix of Amerindian, Mediterranean European and African to a bigger or lesser degree depending on the country but giving a mixed-raced majority (over 60% in Venezuela and well over 80% in Mexico).

Generally, the idea of multiculturalism has been used in Latin America as an ideal of Latinos being a new race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Raza_C%C3%B3smica) taking the best of these three backgrounds, but at the end I think it erases said backgrounds. I've been thinking on making a thread about it, but it's hard to think how to focus it.

By the way, very few think I'm Latino here in Venezuela. They tend to ask me or point out if I'm foreigner because I'm too fair-skinned and well-spoken. It hurts me. A lot.

Rachel Udin
04-02-2013, 04:16 AM
It's an unfortunate stereotype Asians have to live through, but I think every minority--either religious or racial--has to go through it at one point or another. That doesn't make it right. It's more like a fact of life.

My father's parents came from a little shtetl (ghetto) in Odessa to Toronto circa 1900 and being a minority (Jewish) they were subjected to the usual religious intolerance of the day. Before them, the Italian crew had come in from various parts of Italy and they got the living crap kicked out of them as well by the Christian (probably Protestant) majority.

Growing up in Toronto, I knew a few kids of Chinese descent and they used to tell me stories of their parents abusing them, whacking them over the head if they didn't get high enough grades in school or excel at something. I didn't know if they were exaggerating or not, to be honest.

As for the stereotype in movies (i.e. rich and smart, clever at computers, or sneering villains who like boinking white mistresses) again, that's an unfortunate racial stereotype, but with Hollywood, these things take time to go away. Fifty years ago you had the typical portrayal of Asians as butlers, maids, apothecaries in herbal medicine shops, laundry owners, etc. There's been some progress, but really, things should change a little faster.

So says the white Jewish guy who lives in Japan, is married to a Japanese national, and everyone thinks my children automatically speak English well or that I'm rich. For the record, my older son (13) speaks English when he feels like it, my younger son (almost 10) isn't interested in learning although he has to (it's part of the school curriculum over here) and I'm struggling to make a living.

I put up with it and rail against the racism I've experienced over the years, but the attitudes here aren't going to change any time soon.
I'd class this into the general xenophobia among Japanese. (though, I will note it's not everyone, and it is getting better.)

I should also note that White foreigners, while polarized, are usually treated better on average, as long as they stay foreigners and don't take jobs. There is admiration for English, etc. Whereas Japanese does not hold the same value in the US, so it's not quite an equal serving.

Japanese view of African descent is also that they must either be from Africa or be African American, despite that any of the black actors I have seen on Japanese television have been actually from Samoa!

The line between xenophobia and racism is kinda a fine line, but it is different. In this case, xenophobia states that they don't want you to be *in* the country on other than visiting purposes. Racism, in our case is kinda sanctioned--as long as they are doing the jobs we won't do, from cotton picking, rail road building, blowing up Mount Rushmore, strawberry picking, etc, it's fine. But we'll appear to hate it as much as possible, though we'll continue to buy things like tomatoes.

The political attitude is slightly different.

I should also note, that unlike the US, teachers are held in better esteem in Japan than the US. So while relegated to certain jobs, it still isn't like picking tomatoes on a hot field kind of relegation.

Oh, and there is a ceiling (last report from the 1980's, though) in most organizations, but it's to all "foreigners". That includes Japanese-born Koreans. In which they often end up hiding their heritage in order to get and keep jobs.

Overall, though, from what I've seen, it has markedly gotten better... though I don't know if it is quantifiable... occasionally, Japanese do block foreign ideas, such as "Gangnam Style" song, but conversely, they loved Dae Jang Geum and Winter Sonata... so... it's not always even.

Not saying it makes it better, but I am pointing out that it's not quite racism.


There are two different sides to this pendulum or something that need to be remedied: Myth One is: most people of a certain group or groups look alike. Myth Two is "What? You think I'm Mexican? I'm Puerto Rican, do I look Mexican to you?" (Yes, I actually heard someone say that. Of course, he is a major smart ass lol. When I got my newest hair cut he asked why I didn't just get a mullet and then claimed it wasn't a gay thing. Surrrree! But I have also heard other similar things in life, such as, no I'm not Chinese I'm Japanese, etc. I think you know what I mean here.)

I really didn't think about the fact that I have heard both of these stated many times by different people over the years until just the other day. The two pendulum swings don't seem to be able to co-exist. We know that all Koreans don't look alike, and all Japanese people don't look alike. Yet there are also supposed to be ways to tell if a person is from Korea or Japan, maybe that is just not by looks alone, though. But especially if someone is not living in/wasn't born in that country, only speaks English, this could be a bit difficult to judge. My exchange student friend from Japan actually had conversations about these things with me but now I forget any of the things we said. That was in 1998! We wrote letters for a while but have now lost touch completely.

I think a well-rounded education about life in general must be the only remedy for all of this.

Rachel I will have to check out that video. In my own writing, the only people who are of Asian descent so far are multi-racial. I have a character who is black and Japanese and another who is Chinese/Japanese/white, it is in the future, and in book one my main character Serenity doesn't know anything about the labels due to government brainwashing. Book Two adds the knowledge of another character, and Serenity is going to learn these kinds of things, along with more knowledge about sexuality and religion. But as I try to promote all kinds of diversity, I would definitely need to make sure I am not offensive on any level!
It's more like....

Someone blank out tells me to my face, and not in a curious way, "You know Asians all look alike." And if they look "different" then it's because of "their eyes" (even if that's not true).

I usually, for the record can spot a Korean by how they dressed, especially Koreans who are middle-aged women... which is an internal joke to Korea. (That group is called ajumma). Also body language gives it away a lot, but that probably comes from me cramming culture and various media.

Or in one case, "All Asian clothing looks alike."<-- definitely not. There are You Tube videos on a range of school girl styles comparing the three... plus it ranged a lot over time.

And if you correct them, they get that look on their face like, "Why do you care so much?"

Which is annoying.... why did you bring it up if you didn't want to discuss it? Just to piss off the person in front of you?

So frustrating...

BTW, Japanese, Korean, Mongolian and Chinese are very different in sound. Which is more larger than the dialects of Spanish in Middle and South America (excluding Portugese for Brazil). The grammar is closest in Japanese to Korean, but the inflection in both languages is quite wide. While formal Japanese often has an even beat, Korean often has elongated vowels to make emphasis and far more repetition (The rules are different... I've messed up and spoken Japanese Korean style a few times when switching, which must be funny). Korean R and Japanese R are also different, and Korean has a future tense, but Japanese doesn't. Korean will use the occasional plural, but Japanese tends to forgo plurals, if there are any at all. (the closest in Japanese is taichi... but it's not a real plural.)

And all four writing styles are very, very different.

Chinese isn't even related. (Also Chinese has some straight r's as well.)

Covering the rest of Asia would take too long... but there are several language groups, and several grammar schemes. In India there are I think, three-four language groups... and then several sub languages. Even if you learn the basics, it's pretty fast to pick out the differences (unless your mind has been cramming too much of each language and you're picking out Korean in Japanese and Japanese in Korean, but then I do that to English with both languages too. --;; <-- that's called a brain fry.)

Anyway, Asians in the Library video pretty much is mixing up Chinese stereotypes with some really big insensitivity since it was RIGHT after the earthquake tsunami nuclear scare thing... and hits about every single last stereotype on the list. From the Yellow scare (they are all invading in faceless hoards), down to the permanent foreigner. (With the matching "disclaimer" to match, which sounds a lot like, "You know I am not racist.") I should note I don't agree with how some people handled responding to it... often with sexist stereotypes. (Don't read the comment thread)


Well, the look typically associated with Mexicans and most Latinos come from a mix of Amerindian, Mediterranean European and African to a bigger or lesser degree depending on the country but giving a mixed-raced majority (over 60% in Venezuela and well over 80% in Mexico).

Generally, the idea of multiculturalism has been used in Latin America as an ideal of Latinos being a new race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Raza_C%C3%B3smica) taking the best of these three backgrounds, but at the end I think it erases said backgrounds. I've been thinking on making a thread about it, but it's hard to think how to focus it.

By the way, very few think I'm Latino here in Venezuela. They tend to ask me or point out if I'm foreigner because I'm too fair-skinned and well-spoken. It hurts me. A lot.

And Native American/First Nation looks to be mostly from Asia... (ancient Asia) *some* of the ideas of language religion and definitely genetics says so. Making Latino descent, by and large a mix of all of the races, but also means there is a large range in skin tone.

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 04:31 AM
#8084894 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8084894)

>all Asians look alike
One thing that annoys me is when people ask "why are all anime characters white?" and then insist it's because "Japanese people want to be white," but they refuse notice that the Caucasian characters are usually drawn markedly differently than Japanese characters.

>And Native American/First Nation looks to be mostly from Asia
Going theory is that my tribe (Zuni) are part Japanese and/or Ainu. Both Zuni (Shiwima) and Japanese are language isolates and share morphological and phonetic similarities that set them apart from neighboring languages. They sound quite alike.

maxmordon
04-02-2013, 04:41 AM
One thing that annoys me is when people ask "why are all anime characters white?"


I just facepalmed with this.

That's like asking why all ancient Romans in the movies speak with British accents.

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 04:50 AM
#8084968 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8084968)
>like asking why all ancient Romans in the movies speak with British accents

Nah, that's more like why do Kansai dialects turn into Southern accents in English dubs.

maxmordon
04-02-2013, 05:12 AM
And Native American/First Nation looks to be mostly from Asia... (ancient Asia) *some* of the ideas of language religion and definitely genetics says so. Making Latino descent, by and large a mix of all of the races, but also means there is a large range in skin tone.

Indeed. Colonial Spaniards attempted to de a categorization about it from every conceivable racial combination at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta) and it's staggering, compared to the one-drop rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule).

At the same time, it's amusing the contrast on what makes a person "white" or "black" according to Latin American and North American standards. Generally, it implies all of your parents are of one race, which is more often than not the exception.

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 05:26 AM
What sucks is it's possible to be full-blooded Native American, but not enough % from any single tribe to claim legal membership of any of them, disqualifying you from some benefits.

maxmordon
04-02-2013, 05:41 AM
Nah, that's more like why do Kansai dialects turn into Southern accents in English dubs.

So it would be like how... narrative tend to be biased toward white male heroes since white male heroes has been the protagonists due to white males having written the most widely spread and published media in the last centuries.

I remember reading, for example, Perdido Street Station by China Miéville and keeping imagining the swarthy middle-aged overweight protagonist as white, young and thin first out of default.

By the way, don't get me started about dubs. Here dub actors attempt to weed out dialects and accents since dubbing for +20 countries, each with their own idionsyncrastic way to talk is hard.

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 05:45 AM
#8085112 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8085112)
>how narrative tend to be biased toward white male heroes

More like how readers tend to be biased to assume white male heroes.

And don't seem to notice that anime and manga artists draw Western characters differently (wider chins, bigger noses) than Japanese characters.

Kim Fierce
04-02-2013, 05:57 AM
What sucks is it's possible to be full-blooded Native American, but not enough % from any single tribe to claim legal membership of any of them, disqualifying you from some benefits.

It seems like there should be something in that which would be taken into consideration!!!!!

maxmordon
04-02-2013, 06:01 AM
What sucks is it's possible to be full-blooded Native American, but not enough % from any single tribe to claim legal membership of any of them, disqualifying you from some benefits.

That's disheartening... There's also the opposite view in some other places. I took a class on Native Ethnicities last semester and was surprised about 1) How many distinct tribes there were in Venezuela alone and 2) How all of them are bungled together and left to their own devices with only basic schooling, first aid help and nothing more with few changes of improving their lives and their community and pretty much uncapable of defending themselves against crooked Armed Forces units, illegal Brazilian miners, Colombian guerrilla and being exploited as farm hand.

This reached a critical point last year when a Pemón community kidnapped an Army unit who would abuse them and demanded their Commander to step down from that area. (http://imgs.notitarde.com/Imgs/IMG_0000150315_W_00600.jpg)

J.S.F.
04-02-2013, 06:10 AM
#8084785 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8084785)
>Everyone thinks I must be Christian and celebrate Christmas

Please tell me you at least get the traditional Christmas KFC?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/143553/Funny/kfc-barrel.jpg
---

Nope.

maxmordon
04-02-2013, 06:12 AM
More like how readers tend to be biased to assume white male heroes.


Yes, but only because it's what it has been expected as a "default" by established media.



And don't seem to notice that anime and manga artists draw Western characters differently (wider chins, bigger noses) than Japanese characters.I remember to have noticed that first with Lt. Surge in Pokemon. Though I must add, localized names and settings sometimes do more harm than good on this regard.

Also, I suspect it's something that changes from mangaka to mangaka.

J.S.F.
04-02-2013, 06:28 AM
I'd class this into the general xenophobia among Japanese. (though, I will note it's not everyone, and it is getting better.)

---ME. It is general xenophobia, in spite of having been exposed to the Western world for over 150 years, both the good and the bad. Japanese, in general, have maintained their "uniqueness". Even if you point out that all cultures are unique, they'll say "but we're uniquely unique". That didn't come from me, by the way. It came from a Japanese professor who specialized in cultural comparisons. I just agree with it.

I should also note that White foreigners, while polarized, are usually treated better on average, as long as they stay foreigners and don't take jobs. There is admiration for English, etc. Whereas Japanese does not hold the same value in the US, so it's not quite an equal serving.

---ME. Generally speaking, this is true. If you act too Japanese i.e. go native, then you're not only treated with disdain by the Japanese locals, you're crapped on by other foreigners. I once worked with a guy who spoke the language fluently, moved and acted like the locals, and compared to him I looked like I'd just stepped off the boat. Yet, my employer preferred talking with me. In her words, "Jess, you act like you're supposed to. He doesn't."

Go figure.


Japanese view of African descent is also that they must either be from Africa or be African American, despite that any of the black actors I have seen on Japanese television have been actually from Samoa!

ME. There are a few black 'talents' on TV who speak the language well, but they're largely treated as stereotypes. That's my impression, and they don't come across as playing up to their hosts. I guess they need the money.

However, white talents are also guilty of the same thing. I've known a few and they're about the biggest bunch of ass-kissers on the planet, once again 'acting' Japanese which not only turns me off, it nauseates my wife, too. (And she's Japanese, Osaka-born, and let me tell you, an Osaka-jin will tell you like it is!)


The line between xenophobia and racism is kinda a fine line, but it is different. In this case, xenophobia states that they don't want you to be *in* the country on other than visiting purposes. Racism, in our case is kinda sanctioned--as long as they are doing the jobs we won't do, from cotton picking, rail road building, blowing up Mount Rushmore, strawberry picking, etc, it's fine. But we'll appear to hate it as much as possible, though we'll continue to buy things like tomatoes.

---ME. Yeah, there's a very fine line. I've been discriminated against, refused entry into certain places, but I let it go. It's institutionalized over here and that's just the way it is. I can take care of myself, but I do worry about my boys. They're bi-racial, and by and large they haven't had to worry about bullying, at least on a racial basis. I don't want special treatment for them--just the same chance--and again, by and large, the people around us have been pretty fair.

The political attitude is slightly different.

I should also note, that unlike the US, teachers are held in better esteem in Japan than the US. So while relegated to certain jobs, it still isn't like picking tomatoes on a hot field kind of relegation.

--ME. This is where I'd disagree with you. Teachers used to be held in high esteem over here, but not that much anymore. Attitudes have changed, the quality of teaching isn't that high--especially where I live--and the control over the class has waned. I don't even wanna think of what it's like in the US or Canada now. In my day (long ago, unfortunately) things were different and better, IMHO. Now, not so much.

Oh, and there is a ceiling (last report from the 1980's, though) in most organizations, but it's to all "foreigners". That includes Japanese-born Koreans. In which they often end up hiding their heritage in order to get and keep jobs.

---ME. Yeah, this is true for the most part.

Overall, though, from what I've seen, it has markedly gotten better... though I don't know if it is quantifiable... occasionally, Japanese do block foreign ideas, such as "Gangnam Style" song, but conversely, they loved Dae Jang Geum and Winter Sonata... so... it's not always even.

Not saying it makes it better, but I am pointing out that it's not quite racism.

-----

See above, please. Things have gotten better and no, they haven't blocked Gangnam over here. It's run its course for the most part, but the powers-that-be never really blocked it. It was considered a novelty, really, and nothing more.

As for the Korean dramas--you quoted Winter Sonata--they're still popular. Shojo Jidai is popular, and so was BoA (although she's largely disappeared off the music circuit here, but that's more the style than her being Korean). The viewers of the dramas are invariably middle-aged women who like the 'natsukashii' (nostalgic) feeling. I just consider them low-budget dramas for the most part. Same deal for the Japanese dramas, and they're pretty ridiculous. I've like a few, but to me, by and large, nothing special.

Japan has always imported ideas, shaped them to their culture or rejected them. Nothing new. Entrenched ideas about foreigners, though, be they black or white or from other Asian cultures, won't change any time soon, I fear.

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 07:05 AM
I think a certain amount of xenophobia is to be expected if you want to protect your cultural uniqueness in an era of globalization.

It's the same on the rez. We're insular. We look on outsiders with skepticism and caution. If you're a halfbreed like me, you won't ever really belong.

With so much of the Western world beginning to look the same, and feeling like its monoculture is encroaching on your own culture, you get protective, and push back.

That doesn't really make it okay, but understandable, I guess.

Rachel Udin
04-02-2013, 07:26 AM
The whole "Why do Japanese look white in anime."

I'll go over the gamut, 'cause I know someone wants to know.

Frederick Schodt covered it in Manga! Manga! Manga! (though I'm borrowing from Gilles Poitries in places)

1. First of all most Aliens and foreigners are actually drawn with different and unnatural hair colors.

For example, in Green Legend Ran, silver hair was given the to alien. You can find this consistently--even Sailor Moon has marked its characters with hair colors.

Ranma, also had red hair... and was treated like a foreigner in the series.

Second, foreigners are often marked as "tall" and "kinpatsu" (meaning blonde hair.) with very light skin. (African Americans have been drawn better last I've seen any--and yes, it is African Americans, rather than Africans--you can see the difference in the Macross series moving forward... the more recent ones are umm... less stereotypical...) Usually defaulting to braids.

You can see the most difference with Urusei Yatsura too.

2. The default was to draw more outgoing characters more Western because of Japanese cultural standards.
Most of the outgoing heroines were people that were drawn in foreign lands. The really popular Rose of Versailles, was one of those. (Ikeda)

Japanese eventually wanted to transport those series to Japan with the same personalities, so often in those cases, they kept the "crazy hair" though toned down the features.

I should also note that anime has a lot of Japanese aesthetics--the small mouth (see Geisha), the emphasis on nature and setting (i.e. limited animation... which is a type of animation movement.), etc. In manga, too, the paneling is often very limited. (6-7 max) with a *usual* but not always emphasis on elegance and simplification.

This with some of the old Chinese standards laid out by some men that said that women without freckles and a clear light complexion also have highly contributed to what Westerners think is an "american" look. However, it fails to realize that while our aliens tend to be short, green or gray with large eyes, that most Japanese Aliens are tall, with big noses. *cough* (Tengu, for example) (Chinese and to some extent old Indian texts--though I should point out European texts also had this... had it that women who looked or weighed a certain amount had certain dispositions. While what that was changed over time, the attribution of personality to some effect did stick. I forgot the attribution with freckles though... I'd have to re-ask... I think it was something like "mean" or "too opinionated." While dark-faced was "dishonest" and wide hips was "lazy" and too skinny was "weak" that sort of thing.)

3. You do know that Japanese do color their own hair, so often you will literally get people with pink hair, as mentioned in works such as Paradise Kiss. This is because there re subcultures that allow and encourage for it. Also, though not well advertised, Japanese also can have lighter or darker hair naturally. And also have naturally wavy hair.

In Peach Girl, for example, the character struggles with having darker skin than the average, so her reputation is hurt by it. Something the mangaka said she struggled with herself.

Also Japanese people are not that short. When I was there (I being of average height for the US) the students were often taller than I was... Older generations who suffered through the wars, I observed tended to be shorter... but not as much as exaggerated in anime... (knocking at your knees)

If you want to see making fun of it... Roma Thermae anime did a fairly good job of poking fun of the stereotypes of Japanese people.... and there, you can see the stereotypically drawn foreigner, dressed as a roman, complete with the largish nose, but at the same time there is some good nature ribbing of Japanese culture as well. (Insider jokes)

Should cover most of the range...

Rachel Udin
04-02-2013, 07:54 AM
-----

See above, please. Things have gotten better and no, they haven't blocked Gangnam over here. It's run its course for the most part, but the powers-that-be never really blocked it. It was considered a novelty, really, and nothing more.

As for the Korean dramas--you quoted Winter Sonata--they're still popular. Shojo Jidai is popular, and so was BoA (although she's largely disappeared off the music circuit here, but that's more the style than her being Korean). The viewers of the dramas are invariably middle-aged women who like the 'natsukashii' (nostalgic) feeling. I just consider them low-budget dramas for the most part. Same deal for the Japanese dramas, and they're pretty ridiculous. I've like a few, but to me, by and large, nothing special.

Japan has always imported ideas, shaped them to their culture or rejected them. Nothing new. Entrenched ideas about foreigners, though, be they black or white or from other Asian cultures, won't change any time soon, I fear.

I heard about Monster Parents making a dent into the teaching profession... (Personally, I think the old values of Japanese communication won't work if that really does take effect on a large scale.)

Still, I think for many aspects of the system, the system in the US is a mess, but what's worse is that everyone agrees, but doesn't know what to do about it. (All those taking away rights, etc and the budget cuts against education.)

I have seen in the media exchanges better importation and exportation of media, though I'm pretty sure this isn't moving the base culture all that much. (Like Yaoi and Yuri doesn't make tolerance to homsexuality any better.)

For example, You're Beautiful K-drama made it into the Japanese market and was remade. Korean dramas have also adapated Japanese dramas, which was unthinkable from the news I heard in the 1990's. (Both countries attempted blocking from the other). Korean dramas have also adapted Chinese and Taiwanese dramas. Chinese dramas have adapted Japanese works. And there have been collaborations. (In 2011, Korea got a creativity brain drain when most of the good actors worked overseas, including importation to Japan).

Japanese dramas are also marketed very much these days to younger generation. Such as Nodame Cantabile, Hana Yori Dango, and others... which I've noticed since about 2001, has cut into the anime market of Shoujo, meaning that the majority of Shoujo manga is actually being made into dramas more often than anime with one or two exceptions to the rule.

Japanese media has also been showing that once a drama made overseas in two countries is popular, they are more likely to make a version in the country... (You can see this with a few dramas.)

Meanwhile, anime is increasingly becoming for boys. I noticed a sharp increase of anime made just for boys.

Considering that it is getting better in the higher media circuits as production companies are cooperating and music has crossover, (DBSK, for example, has a Japanese following, and M-flo, who is of Korean descent and came out as such, though born in Japan) I'd expect a bit of a trickle down effect. Though it'll take forever for it to happen. Especially since Japan in their dramas are infamous for inserting propaganda in the worst of their dramas (Made in Japan is one.)

Also Tokyo Wankei.

At least the political mask to the world is getting moderated a bit as they finally buckled and conceded things like Jingu no Kogo was likely either legendary or a myth, and that some Japanese culture came from Korea directly.

I did take a rough guess that within Japan, it doesn't show improvement. (the downfall of women's rights with the recession) However, I'm kinda optimistic given that they've loosened up at the top layer that maybe it'll translate better in a trickle down effect.

Personally, though, I find Japanese dramas in many respects better than some of their American counterparts. Things like they freaking have a real ending. Their treatment of women by default tends to be better and pass Bechdel. And also the dramas excel at Slice of Life and showing a singular part of society and painting it well in a way you can understand exogenous groups (though it can feel like preaching if done wrong.) Limited to 10 episodes, I feel the stories have better arcs and also tend to experiment with form a lot more.

I kinda find the majority of US TV to be insipid, including defaulting to the dysfunctional family dynamic and not having an ending. The set might be shiny, but a shiny set and high budget doesn't make up for bad stories. (Plus Japanese dramas have ribbed American television as well... such as a close up doesn't result in higher resolution of the same image.)

Though Japanese view of fiction tends to be a fast and hard escape and more of a what if, rather than a true reflection of the culture by an large. (And severe bubble worlds as well.) But then, I'm getting a bit more technical...

I should note, though, that for some reason Korean television has a habit of moving the country's politics occasionally (or maybe symptomatic of it)... so Japan's dynamics are not universal.

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 08:47 AM
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/143553/Anime/girls-und-panzer-finale.gif

J.S.F.
04-02-2013, 09:39 AM
I heard about Monster Parents making a dent into the teaching profession... (Personally, I think the old values of Japanese communication won't work if that really does take effect on a large scale.)
---ME. My wife and I have had a lot of experience with Monster Parents. These are slime who berate, threaten, and even attack teachers when their little Hiroshi or Hiroko doesn't do well in school. They'll badmouth anyone who doesn't agree with them. Quite frankly, they deserve to be locked up. It's not large-scale--yet--but there's enough of 'em out there to make any parent or teacher dealing with uncomfortable.



Still, I think for many aspects of the system, the system in the US is a mess, but what's worse is that everyone agrees, but doesn't know what to do about it. (All those taking away rights, etc and the budget cuts against education.)--ME. I won't disagree with this.

I have seen in the media exchanges better importation and exportation of media, though I'm pretty sure this isn't moving the base culture all that much. (Like Yaoi and Yuri doesn't make tolerance to homsexuality any better.)
---ME. I've never been interested in manga despite having lived here for over twenty years. I know about the Yaoi and Yuri lines, but that isn't for me. Just not interested in reading it is all.

As for tolerance to homosexuality, it all depends on how it's done. Most of the gay/lesbian crowd tends to be very quiet about it, partially, I feel, because of the age-old conservatism here, and partially because some of the LGB crowd might just feel inhibited as to their own sexual orientation. I don't really know for sure--this is just a guess on my part. Half the time you wouldn't know unless they dress provocatively--and I've only seen it once in all my years here.

Gohatto is an excellent movie which examines homosexual themes among others (such as loyalty) and it was a fascinating flick, very well acted and honest. Worth watching.

The transgender cases here are usually played up for sympathy even if they're largely misunderstood. Ai Haruna (I don't know her real name and am too lazy to look it up) is probably the most famous transgendered individual in the country, and she comes across as being very funny, good-natured, and intelligent. There is an announcer whose name I cannot recall at this point in time and pretty much everyone was surprised when she came out and said in an interview she used to be a man. Meh...she does her job well and that's fine with me.
---

See above please. I just offered my opinions on some of the points you raised. Politically...it might be best to start another thread. It's an issue worth exploring, though.

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 09:47 AM
PANZER VOR!!!

Alan Yee
04-02-2013, 11:38 AM
>get mistaken for Mexican all the time
>I'm Native American
>even Mexicans think I'm Mexican

Heh. I can totally relate. For people who don't know, my three siblings and I are half Chinese and half white American. (Father was born in Hong Kong, briefly went to college in England before moving to the U.S. at age 18. Mother is pretty standard white American melting-pot: English-Scottish-German-Dutch with a little bit of Irish, French, and Welsh thrown into the mix, with the vast majority of her ancestors already in the U.S. by colonial times.)

What do we look like to most people? From most to least frequently guessed: (1) white, (2) Mexican / Puerto Rican / other Latino/a, (3) part Asian, or (4) unspecified mixed-race. It's interesting because when my sister went to Mexico on a mission trip during high school, she was mistaken as being Latina on more than one occasion. One person I knew in school said she would have guessed I was Puerto Rican. Many many people think I just look like a white boy. Usually the last name is a clue, though, that I'm not totally white. My main problems I've run into is that I often don't feel like a "real" POC because I'm only half Chinese and don't "look" Chinese enough to connect with other Asian Americans. I also don't feel I fit in with white Americans. I also don't feel like I have much Chinese culture. I was born in the U.S., and my dad's family was somewhat "Westernized" from having lived in Hong Kong, Guangdong Province (southern China), and North Borneo, all of which were either controlled by the British or were highly influenced by them.

Also, my boyfriend (who is black and Asian on both sides of his family due to his black grandfathers both being in the U.S. military stationed in Japan and Korea) has a family friend/cousin-of-a-cousin who is half white and half Asian: he honestly looks Latino, too, and has been mistaken as such. My boyfriend's family would be a whole 'nother story, since his family is so mixed that the family photos are very colorful. He's half East Asian (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Mongolian), 1/8 Native American (one of his great-grandmothers was said to be full Cherokee), and the rest is black American with a little bit of white somewhere on one or both of the black sides of his family.

Which reminds me. BF and I probably need to gather some more family photos so we can compare our families and family trees...

kuwisdelu
04-02-2013, 11:51 AM
Sure sucks being a halfbreed, don't it?

As far as I'm concerned, it's not the color of your skin or the percentages in your blood that matters. It's what's in your heart.

And I don't mean that in a sentimental "we're all part of the human race" kind of way.

I mean culturally.

I don't care how much Cherokee princess anyone has in them if it's not in their heart.

And that goes both ways. It also means I don't mind a freakin' white Sicilian dude calling himself Cherokee if he is inside, honestly. Iron Eyes Cody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody) had a native heart as far as I'm concerned.

dolores haze
04-02-2013, 04:31 PM
We were talking in a recent thread about the tiresome trope of people of Asian descent (Asian-Americans, Asian-Canadians, etc.) being perceived as perpetual foreigners.


I had quite a lot of experience with this during the ten years I was with my first husband. He was Vietnamese-American, born in Texas, southern accent. I'm white and had, at the time, an almost unintelligible (to Americans, anyway) Scottish accent. How many times did everyone assume he was a foreigner, while assuming I was American? Hundreds or thousands - it was A LOT. Even when we went for an INS appointment, the INS staffer started talking to him as if he were the one applying for a green card, despite the fact it was my name on the application. That was one of the few times he actually lost his temper about it. Usually, in more casual encounters with the curious, we treated it as a conversation starter. It was pretty amazing how very interested everyone was about who we were, where we were from, how we'd gotten together, etc. It did get old, though. We both got really tired of explaining ourselves.

LJD
04-02-2013, 06:13 PM
Heh. I can totally relate. For people who don't know, my three siblings and I are half Chinese and half white American. (Father was born in Hong Kong, briefly went to college in England before moving to the U.S. at age 18. Mother is pretty standard white American melting-pot: English-Scottish-German-Dutch with a little bit of Irish, French, and Welsh thrown into the mix, with the vast majority of her ancestors already in the U.S. by colonial times.)

What do we look like to most people? From most to least frequently guessed: (1) white, (2) Mexican / Puerto Rican / other Latino/a, (3) part Asian, or (4) unspecified mixed-race. It's interesting because when my sister went to Mexico on a mission trip during high school, she was mistaken as being Latina on more than one occasion. One person I knew in school said she would have guessed I was Puerto Rican. Many many people think I just look like a white boy. Usually the last name is a clue, though, that I'm not totally white. My main problems I've run into is that I often don't feel like a "real" POC because I'm only half Chinese and don't "look" Chinese enough to connect with other Asian Americans. I also don't feel I fit in with white Americans. I also don't feel like I have much Chinese culture. I was born in the U.S., and my dad's family was somewhat "Westernized" from having lived in Hong Kong, Guangdong Province (southern China), and North Borneo, all of which were either controlled by the British or were highly influenced by them.

I am mixed too (Asian mother, white father) and I never get Latino, but sometimes Native American. Also, my features are not very Asian, and a lot of people think I'm just white. Asians are most likely to be able to guess it correctly. I have a completely white name, first+middle+last.

My Canadian-born mom (as mentioned above) had very little connection to her heritage and has a completely different family history from most Asians in Toronto. I have lots of Asian friends, as a result of going to a high school that was about 50% Asian. But I never felt like we had any shared experiences because of it.

LJD
04-02-2013, 07:15 PM
The whole smart thing is also detrimental. Because of that belief, many Asians have been shown to be put into ESL, (I've heard stories), but then teachers will ignore problems with Science and Math, believing that the students will automatically do well. I've had people argue to my face that it's "cultural" and sometimes "genetic" which is why I suffered with math and science, but did fine with English (which they are convinced I have issues with). (But then they rub that with, "But you're not really Asian." --;; And then attribute my decent grades to being a Jew--you really can't win if people are that determined, can you?)

I was a well-rounded student, and people would say weird shit about how that was because I was mixed. And it's my white father who's the scientist and teaches university-level math and can't spell to save his life. But the math/science is always blamed on the Asian-ness.


Plus you have no idea how many time I've had to sit through some ignorant person recite to me and ARGUE with me that Asians have a high suicide rate. (You know, because of grades and stuff). The myth going about trying to jump out the window. <-- Has anyone else had to sit through this crap and no one will back you up?

This is something I've never heard talked about here. And, since my (Asian) mother killed herself, I doubt people are going to have conversations about suicide in front of me now.

Asian-Americans have low suicide rates overall. BUT apparently Asian-American college students are more likely to have suicide ideation than white students, and more likely to attempt suicide [American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/ethnicity-health/asian-american/suicide.aspx)]. At Cornell, they had 21 suicides in 10 years or so, 13 were Asian students despite being only 15% of the student population. (Though I think this is a bit anomalous, and the Asian/white suicide difference in college students is not as large is that overall.) People of Asian descent are less likely to seek out help for mental illnesses, so there are specific services targeted to them at some colleges. Whereas this age group has low suicide rates compared to other age groups for white people, the HIGHEST suicide rate among Asians is in the 20-24 age group. There is also, interestingly, less of a male/female suicide differential among Asians. [detailed stats available from CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_08.pdf) though tables are not easy to wade through] So I think some discussion of the pressures these students might face is not without merit, though I doubt the conversations you heard about this were in any way constructive.

Most of the Asian people I know do have parents that fit into the Asian Parent Stereotype to at least some extent, and I think it will be interesting to see how this affects how these people raise their own kids. My mom was not in any way a sterotypical Asian parent, probably in part because she had such parents herself and then ended up in a career she hated, plus had them reject her when she married my dad.


The thing about suicide in the news though is that the coverage gives you no sense of the true numbers. There is a lot of coverage of teen suicide, when teen suicide rates are low compared to other age groups, and not much on suicide among middle aged folk, when they have higher suicide rates (about double in Canada (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/hlth66d-eng.htm)), and their suicide rates are rising. (There are a couple NYTimes articles about this.) There is also very little focus on the significant gender gap. So people do often get quite skewed perspectives on suicide rates, and never go look up the actual numbers.

maxmordon
04-03-2013, 12:18 AM
Sure sucks being a halfbreed, don't it?

As far as I'm concerned, it's not the color of your skin or the percentages in your blood that matters. It's what's in your heart.

And I don't mean that in a sentimental "we're all part of the human race" kind of way.

I mean culturally.

I don't care how much Cherokee princess anyone has in them if it's not in their heart.

And that goes both ways. It also means I don't mind a freakin' white Sicilian dude calling himself Cherokee if he is inside, honestly. Iron Eyes Cody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody) had a native heart as far as I'm concerned.

I wholeheartedly agree. That's why it kinda bothers me when people tell me I don't appear to be Venezuelan/Latino.

Rachel Udin
04-03-2013, 03:13 AM
I found out I get treated like I'm half without getting the half membership. =P A lot of the things that people who are half (though I'm not saying it is the same) I found that by being adopted internationally, I also get.

The "What are you?" (Especially when I come out Jewish with gestures and languages).

The kicked out of both clubs.

And also the not belonging. It gets tiring, because I don't have half written on my skin, but having 4 parents, and two cultures to straddle, sometimes it feels like I have to fight for it anyway. (Because I've had people argue with me on what I feel am am or aren't.)

But the issues aren't the same... some of the intolerance is though... (I mean intersecting overlap.)

Kim Fierce
04-03-2013, 03:38 AM
This isn't really the same situation, but me being gay makes me not feel connected to the culture I grew up in. Which is a whole lot of white country. Not the most hillbilly you've ever heard of. But some small town farmers and factory workers. I usually like to pretend I didn't grow up in BFE with a cornfield that we rented out to a farmer and our own sheep and chickens and stuff. I moved to a small town in high school, and at first hated it, but now live in a decent size city and love it. The diversity for one thing, and the acceptance is something I can not find in my hometown. I am not considered so strange here. My best friend still lives in the old area, though, and she is a wonderful open-minded accepting person. But when I went to her house for a bday party for her daughter last summer, suddenly I was in one of those moments where I realized that among her farmer relatives, I stand out like a freak. I don't belong with them. Oddly, despite the fact that I am a lesbian, I was one of the minority which was not wearing flannel. ;-) Even though I brought my son with me, I am still some kind of non-female weirdo.

My friend's grandparents have told her not to associate with me multiple times (but we have been friends since high school and are 31 and 32 now). I think that through these experiences I can understand how it is weird to not belong to the culture/race you are "supposed" to belong to, especially when you really have no where else to go who will accept you either. Gay community is hard to find sometimes and is mostly online for me, and I just try to be kind and social with other gay people in my work place, but don't hang out like I used to.

I find myself wanting to belong more to some sort of multi-racial rainbow culture, especially since I have black and bi-racial people in my family now, too. But even before then I still rejected the all-white small town mentality. I couldn't go back to live in that town for anything in this world. This will sound weird, but me and my son were watching Cars yesterday and I thought it was so weird to see this movie with obvious parts of my own past that I am supposed to relate to: country music, race cars, small town which is familiar to me but which I will never ever belong to. I don't really think I want to, either. But there isn't really another option haha.
*ETA OK there really is other options, just can't change certain people or the mythology of the small-town life being some kind of idyllic ideal with low crime and borderline utopia Mayberry. It is not true, and I wouldn't belong there if it was because I'm not the right type of person to belong.

J.S.F.
04-03-2013, 08:09 AM
I found out I get treated like I'm half without getting the half membership. =P A lot of the things that people who are half (though I'm not saying it is the same) I found that by being adopted internationally, I also get.

The "What are you?" (Especially when I come out Jewish with gestures and languages).

The kicked out of both clubs.

And also the not belonging. It gets tiring, because I don't have half written on my skin, but having 4 parents, and two cultures to straddle, sometimes it feels like I have to fight for it anyway. (Because I've had people argue with me on what I feel am am or aren't.)

But the issues aren't the same... some of the intolerance is though... (I mean intersecting overlap.)
---

Some of the bullshit you have to cut through is more than annoying, and while I can never know what it's like to be half this or half that, I do know quite well what it's like to experience anti-Semitism. Went through it from junior high until university and even after. Toronto used to be called "Toronto the Good"--only if you're with the majority, maybe. Not in my book, not anymore.

Groucho Marx once told a funny joke among the many he did. Seemed he wanted to take his son to a pool go to swimming. The person in charge said they didn't allow Jewish people to swim there. Marx's reply: "My kid's only half-Jewish. Can he go in up to his knees?"

(Or words to that effect).

I once questioned myself a long time ago why I'd want to belong to any group that only had disdain for me. (Another riff on Marx which Woody Allen later stole). I realized then and there it was best to go it alone. I'm not saying you should do the same thing, Rachel, or that the people around you are so scummy that it makes life miserable. What I am saying is that being strong--mentally--is the only way to overcome what kind of shit others will throw at you. I'm pretty sure you have...but fighting the stereotypes and concepts others have is grueling.

And it really shouldn't be that way, it really shouldn't. It just is...and that's life.

Sorry for the ramble.

Rachel Udin
04-03-2013, 09:51 PM
---

Some of the bullshit you have to cut through is more than annoying, and while I can never know what it's like to be half this or half that, I do know quite well what it's like to experience anti-Semitism. Went through it from junior high until university and even after. Toronto used to be called "Toronto the Good"--only if you're with the majority, maybe. Not in my book, not anymore.

Groucho Marx once told a funny joke among the many he did. Seemed he wanted to take his son to a pool go to swimming. The person in charge said they didn't allow Jewish people to swim there. Marx's reply: "My kid's only half-Jewish. Can he go in up to his knees?"

(Or words to that effect).

I once questioned myself a long time ago why I'd want to belong to any group that only had disdain for me. (Another riff on Marx which Woody Allen later stole). I realized then and there it was best to go it alone. I'm not saying you should do the same thing, Rachel, or that the people around you are so scummy that it makes life miserable. What I am saying is that being strong--mentally--is the only way to overcome what kind of shit others will throw at you. I'm pretty sure you have...but fighting the stereotypes and concepts others have is grueling.

And it really shouldn't be that way, it really shouldn't. It just is...and that's life.

Sorry for the ramble.
I usually hang out with people who are more tolerant than that and at least have tact, but sometimes it smacks you upside the face anyway when you don't expect it.

The best I've learned as coping mechanism to to learn and figure out the hows and why's (Yes, some of it is ignorance and stupidity, but someone had to start it on purpose--or a group of someones... for some reason I always picture snobs.) Also the occasional rant doesn't hurt either.

I put out educational material as well and fight down ignorance when possible. I rather not surrender to allowing intolerance pass under my nose, even if it makes me "unpopular". (If it makes me unpopular to the people saying it, I really don't give a damn. I just want to let them know there is a problem and what it is.)

crunchyblanket
04-07-2013, 05:47 PM
I don't care how much Cherokee princess anyone has in them if it's not in their heart.

And that goes both ways. It also means I don't mind a freakin' white Sicilian dude calling himself Cherokee if he is inside, honestly. Iron Eyes Cody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody) had a native heart as far as I'm concerned.

There's a concept like this in Roma culture. The idea is that even if you're of Romani blood, if you have no Romanipen you may as well be a gadgie (non-Roma) Equally, a gadgie with Romanipen can very well be considered Romani.

(Romanipen as a concept is a bit difficult to describe - it's sort of a 'Romani spirit', this is a fairly good explanation (http://dosta-coe.org/node/66))

For myself - I don't fit squarely in either culture. Most non-Roma instantly categorise me as 'other' when they learn of my heritage, whereas most Roma wouldn't consider me 'true Romani' because my family barely follow the old ways anymore.

Of course, I look like a standard white person, so if I don't say anything I can just pass as 'normal'. If I want to.

judes
04-17-2013, 09:53 AM
*ETA OK there really is other options, just can't change certain people or the mythology of the small-town life being some kind of idyllic ideal with low crime and borderline utopia Mayberry. It is not true, and I wouldn't belong there if it was because I'm not the right type of person to belong.

I totally understand this. I've grown up in big cities all of my life and moved to a smaller town (~35,000) two years ago and then to an even smaller town 6 months ago (~1,300). There are a lot of benefits of living in a small town such as a close-knit community and people watching out for each other, but people also talk about each other a lot more and they are really closed off to different people / ideas / concepts.

I find that it's difficult to relate to people due to the fact that I immediately stand out because of my appearance (I'm from Taiwan, but immigrated to Canada when I was 8 years old), and people constantly ask me if I am Filipino or they complement me on how good my English is.

This is an interesting discussion because from my experience, Asians are foreigners in part due to how they are seen as "other/non-white", but also because some of them choose to see themselves as "other" and only associate with people of the same cultural background. They both contribute to this concept of "foreign-ness" and unfortunately the cycle continues.

I guess what I'm trying to say in relation to the original topic is that although it's great to say Canada/US is diverse, etc. etc. I don't think I will ever feel 100% Canadian or 100% Taiwanese, and as a result, wherever I go, I feel foreign, and I think that's something I will eventually have to accept. But maybe it's because I'm an immigrant and my children will have a different understanding of it.

How Asian men are portrayed in Hollywood really bothers me too. They are martial art killers who are silent and deadly (or associated with organized crime: yakuza, triad), but are not capable of love and not worthy of having a love interest. Examples: Hollywood films starring Jet Li (his historical films are different), G.I. Joe Rise of the Cobra, and the examples in the original link.

Anyway this is all over the place so I will stop.

J.S.F.
04-17-2013, 10:58 AM
[QUOTE=judes;This is an interesting discussion because from my experience, Asians are foreigners in part due to how they are seen as "other/non-white", but also because some of them choose to see themselves as "other" and only associate with people of the same cultural background. They both contribute to this concept of "foreign-ness" and unfortunately the cycle continues.

---ME. I think that's where some of the problem lies. There are those who are white who only hang out with their own, and those who are black who hang out with their own. Asians, I've found, are no different. This doesn't make it bad, but it does tend to make intercultural communications a bit more difficult. Nothing wrong with hanging out with people of your own background, but, as you said, it contributes to the cycle.

When I went to the U of T (many years back) every racial group had their own clubs, and if someone different walked in you could hear a pin drop. One of my black lady friends invited me to a meeting and I remember being told in no uncertain terms I wasn't welcome. My lady friend and I left together. She mixed with everyone and never got excluded. An isolated incident? Maybe, but it pissed me off at the time.

I guess what I'm trying to say in relation to the original topic is that although it's great to say Canada/US is diverse, etc. etc. I don't think I will ever feel 100% Canadian or 100% Taiwanese, and as a result, wherever I go, I feel foreign, and I think that's something I will eventually have to accept. But maybe it's because I'm an immigrant and my children will have a different understanding of it.

---ME. Yeah, I can sort of relate. I've been living in Japan half my life, but the big difference is that I didn't grow up here. (Came here as a younger man). Because of how I look, people always judge me differently until they get to know me...and even then, a lot of the time it's the arms-length deal. Just the way it is.

How Asian men are portrayed in Hollywood really bothers me too. They are martial art killers who are silent and deadly (or associated with organized crime: yakuza, triad), but are not capable of love and not worthy of having a love interest. Examples: Hollywood films starring Jet Li (his historical films are different), G.I. Joe Rise of the Cobra, and the examples in the original link.

---But it's twue! (Yes, sarcasm).

Unfortunately, Hollywood has always been slow to change. The first big black star was Sidney Poitier and then a few others. They also dealt with stereotypes, then, as now, and even the black filmmakers at times indulge in their own brand of stereotyping to other black people or other ethnicities. It's taken a long time to set things straight, and it will probably take just as long for the Asian community to make itself known in La-La Land.

Double standards are to be expected. If a white dude goes out with an Asian lady, it's all good. (I'm the white dude who married a Japanese woman so I know about this:D). However, if an Asian guy is seen dating a white woman, holee shit, slam that door! Not always, but it's there.

Thing is, Hollywood is catering to a white, rather conservative majority who probably can't accept the premise of an Asian man sleeping with a white woman. Frank Capra tried it eighty years ago and his film was banned in the British Empire for a long time. (The Bitter Tea of General Yen, 1933). Odd, offbeat movie for its time, not entirely successful, but not bad at all.

These things take time to work out---and it looks like it's going to take a lot more time.

Anyway this is all over the place so I will stop.[/QUOTE]

---

See above, please.

Rachel Udin
04-17-2013, 10:02 PM
This is an interesting discussion because from my experience, Asians are foreigners in part due to how they are seen as "other/non-white", but also because some of them choose to see themselves as "other" and only associate with people of the same cultural background. They both contribute to this concept of "foreign-ness" and unfortunately the cycle continues.
Actually, it's been shown that statistically, even in multicultural settings, people tend to self segregate, the different with Asians in their own enclaves, etc is that they get blamed for the segregation, historically. (See Jews for similar).

Going something like this: The dominant group segregates because the other group speaks a different language/has a different religion/culture and doesn't want to bother learning it. Then they call them "Insular" and then after a few generations, it's the group's fault for being "insular" and not mixing. TT

In this case, I believe this "insular" accusation for all Asians started with the Chinese railroad workers and the whole, "They won't learn our language." (Which somehow sounds familiar... hmmm... border fence, anyone?)

But the truth is that black, white, Asian, Latino and sub groups tend to divide towns and cities along such lines. (Thai town, Little Tokyo, Koreatown, Little Italy). And from what I've observed, perhaps the whole, "You're not one of us" is self fulfilling all around.

*Some* white people do tend to stick to mostly white people. (My parents, for example, who seemed to only know anyone of color by proxy, i.e. coworker who is white married a husband who was not, then that's by proxy. Has to know them for work, also by proxy.). =P I have no idea why they adopted me sometimes.... (and please save the make-yourself-feel-better lectures. I've heard them all.)

Some of it is a cultural bridge or even a shared understanding, but I don't think the rift would be half so bad if someone was willing to learn in the first place.

(Since this is rough: Uhh... White people too, just that they don't get accused of it half so often, since historically, the narrative has been theirs to tell)


How Asian men are portrayed in Hollywood really bothers me too. They are martial art killers who are silent and deadly (or associated with organized crime: yakuza, triad), but are not capable of love and not worthy of having a love interest. Examples: Hollywood films starring Jet Li (his historical films are different), G.I. Joe Rise of the Cobra, and the examples in the original link.

Anyway this is all over the place so I will stop.Bruce Lee was the last one who go the girl consistently, no matter what her skin color. He had that much tenacity.

I'm blanking on any South Asian guys getting the girl in Hollywood.

"Average Asian" is a great sketch to see the aired grievances of the Hollywood myths. I loved that series, since it hit on everything that I disliked about portrayals of Asians on TV.

crunchyblanket
04-17-2013, 10:05 PM
I'm blanking on any South Asian guys getting the girl in Hollywood.

Not Hollywood, but Steven Yeun's (Korean-American) character in The Walking Dead is presently the only one with an active love life (and with a white woman to boot).

Rachel Udin
04-18-2013, 06:15 AM
^^;; Korean isn't south Asian. East Asian, definitely, Bruce Lee (and perhaps Brandon Lee) counts. You can half count LOST, but I have mixed feelings about that.

I was thinking Pakistani, Indian, Afghani, etc in Hollywood. I can only think of Bollywood, but that doesn't count.

Do you have anyone you can think of in such a South Asian role from Hollywood. I'm trying hard and not getting anything.

Eh~ Even in Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, Kumar doesn't get a girl. Harold isn't guaranteed the girl though.

King and I was yellow face... (originally) That's South East Asia. Still didn't get the girl. (Yes, even in yellow face. Is that depressing?)

Still blanking.

J.S.F.
04-18-2013, 06:27 AM
Rachel, If Brandon Lee hadn't died, he might have been able to bridge the gap, so to speak. He had talent, undeniably so, and maybe, just maybe, he could have done it.

Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa is good as a villain or weak scumbag; he has that kind of sneer down pat, and I really couldn't think of him as a heroic type.

As for other actors, I remember the Pam Anderson series from years back, and while it was basically D-U-M-B, wasn't there a romance between a white girl and (I think) a Vietnamese guy? Or is my memory failing?

ETA. I wonder if "getting a girl"--does it matter if she's white, or does any race apply--is that necessary. Brandon Lee was portrayed in The Crow as living with his white girlfriend, and to the best of my knowledge no one kicked up a fuss over it. Tagawa, no, not that I can remember. Drawing a blank on this as well.

Kitty Pryde
04-18-2013, 06:52 AM
South Asian people with big roles on TV:
Mindy Kaling--I was excited to see she has her own show but it's too goofy for me to watch, like 95% of sitcoms.
Ceci on New Girl--solid part of the ensemble cast, a model who dated the Jewish guy and is now engaged to a British Indian guy via a semi-arranged marriage
That woman on Royal Pains--also part of an ensemble cast, a physicians assistant, who also had an arranged marriage. I recall she was against it at first but maybe she went ahead with it and was friends with the husband?
Kunal Naayir on Big Bang Theory--they do lots of dumb ethnic jokes about everyone on this show so meh, but another strong part of an ensemble cast. His parents tried to get him an arranged marriage, but now he's dating a white girl played by that actress who plays the ukelele who is in every sitcom and commercial. They both have major social anxiety disorders so it is not a timeless romantic love with a smoldering leading man, but it is sweet and realistic. KN also has some new show that's just like Punk'd so that's cool I guess.

Also Life of Pi! Does that count as a leading man? Leading man-child, perhaps?

All the Indian-American people I know were not required to have an arranged marriage, so I feel like this trope may be unrealistic? Or at least not as universal as primetime television would have us believe.

For East Asian leading men, a goofy comedy came out this year called 21 & Over with a Korean-American leading man. He doesn't have any love interests. He turns 21 and goes out and makes poor life choices. It's your basic dumb gross-out comedy in the spirit of The Hangover, though, so it's nice to see a bit of diversity in a popular genre.

Rufus Coppertop
04-18-2013, 02:10 PM
More like how readers tend to be biased to assume white male heroes.Guilty. I was reading something perpetrated by James Patterson once and was quite a few pages into it before I discovered that the MC was black. Unfortunately he started guzzling Krispy Kremes and taking serious time out from the plot to test drive a Mercedes and rave on about how fabulous it was and how well it handled and blah blah blah fucking blah.

The only black MC I've come across was in a hideously bad novel by an author I will never, ever, trust again.

Rachel Udin
04-18-2013, 09:31 PM
South Asian people with big roles on TV:
Mindy Kaling--I was excited to see she has her own show but it's too goofy for me to watch, like 95% of sitcoms.
Ceci on New Girl--solid part of the ensemble cast, a model who dated the Jewish guy and is now engaged to a British Indian guy via a semi-arranged marriage
That woman on Royal Pains--also part of an ensemble cast, a physicians assistant, who also had an arranged marriage. I recall she was against it at first but maybe she went ahead with it and was friends with the husband?
Kunal Naayir on Big Bang Theory--they do lots of dumb ethnic jokes about everyone on this show so meh, but another strong part of an ensemble cast. His parents tried to get him an arranged marriage, but now he's dating a white girl played by that actress who plays the ukelele who is in every sitcom and commercial. They both have major social anxiety disorders so it is not a timeless romantic love with a smoldering leading man, but it is sweet and realistic. KN also has some new show that's just like Punk'd so that's cool I guess.

Also Life of Pi! Does that count as a leading man? Leading man-child, perhaps?

All the Indian-American people I know were not required to have an arranged marriage, so I feel like this trope may be unrealistic? Or at least not as universal as primetime television would have us believe.

For East Asian leading men, a goofy comedy came out this year called 21 & Over with a Korean-American leading man. He doesn't have any love interests. He turns 21 and goes out and makes poor life choices. It's your basic dumb gross-out comedy in the spirit of The Hangover, though, so it's nice to see a bit of diversity in a popular genre.

Life of Pi counts, but the story wasn't about him finding his wife.

Royal Pains, she ended up dumping the guy, who got a girlfriend, but it wasn't on camera. (They just wrote it in). Instead, she's dating a Latino dude, who is a model, these days. (Going with the Learning to Love trope) Her ex-betrothed never had her in the first place, though, since she never really loved him.

Never seen New Girl... race bending would still gripe that the trope is even more painful for Asian-American Men. Not sure if this is statistically true.

Mindy (on the show), so far, has dated only white men... A Jew is in there, too. But She hasn't dated any South Asian men, per se. I like the show, since it makes fun of romantic comedies and deals with a lot of women's issues as well (Also takes some tasteful stabs at racism). Her end game is an Italian man. (Obviously...) Her brother, written into the show, also hasn't been on screen dating anyone... I'd kinda like that, though. They'll most likely get there.

There is Glee, but ultimately, he lost the girl. And that's only East Asian. And they haven't shown him that much since. (Harry--and seriously, the show has slid a bit for me. The line of making fun of the prejudice versus playing to it is kinda blurry for me).

Sandra Oh did a series of movies I really liked. Still not really about guy gets girl. (Canadian, though, so it doesn't count--Vancouver).

BTW, I do know of an Indian guy who was betrothed to this Pakistani girl, (IIRC). He was going to marry her once he got out of college and really loved her a lot. They didn't know they were promised to each other, but they loved each other anyway, then found out. She died, though, on the way to the airport back to their college. <--I knew them both personally... so this isn't a I heard thing.

So it does happen... More common in Northern India, from what I understand?? (though it is taking a sharp nose dive from what I've read/seen)


Rachel, If Brandon Lee hadn't died, he might have been able to bridge the gap, so to speak. He had talent, undeniably so, and maybe, just maybe, he could have done it.

Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa is good as a villain or weak scumbag; he has that kind of sneer down pat, and I really couldn't think of him as a heroic type.

As for other actors, I remember the Pam Anderson series from years back, and while it was basically D-U-M-B, wasn't there a romance between a white girl and (I think) a Vietnamese guy? Or is my memory failing?

ETA. I wonder if "getting a girl"--does it matter if she's white, or does any race apply--is that necessary. Brandon Lee was portrayed in The Crow as living with his white girlfriend, and to the best of my knowledge no one kicked up a fuss over it. Tagawa, no, not that I can remember. Drawing a blank on this as well.

I don't think it's "necessary" but it seems to be so often that it DOESN'T happen that I wonder at the rare time it does. Makes sense?

Brandon Lee had a really good shot at it. Especially since his father, Bruce Lee had busted that stereotype, which is why I think the flinching wasn't such an issue with The Crow. But then everything kinda backslid after Brandon's death. It's kinda turning around, but there isn't anyone, ya know, headlining the thing, like Bruce Lee did. Which means the progress is more gradual.

I did think of one, but it was an indie film. Can't remember the name though. It's about a Chinese-American guy who is a struggling actor that suddenly has inherited this shop in China, so he has to go there. He sells the shop and falls for this woman, whom he ends up not staying with. The movie is a bit of a mess as he ends up with hookers in order to compensate for the fact that he has a crush on a girl that's underage at the start of the movie and he's been trying to deny it. (She keeps saying he should become her boyfriend/is her boyfriend, though he's older than her, so can't--also her father opposes the match).

I admit the only reason I watched it was to watch the Asian guy get the girl. The plot was messy, though it did address many undercurrent race issues as well.



But, still, East Asian. South Asian guys who get the girl in Hollywood? I got nothing.

LJD
04-18-2013, 10:13 PM
South Asian guys who get the girl in Hollywood? I got nothing.

Not Hollywood, but not Bollywood either: There was a fairly successful Canadian TV show called Little Mosque on the Prairie with lots of South Asian characters, and the imam (one of the main characters) got the girl...

I can think of a bunch of American TV shows with South Asian characters in addition to Kitty's list (Parks & Rec, Community), but I am a couple seasons behind in them, so I couldn't tell you what happens...

crunchyblanket
04-19-2013, 12:11 AM
^^;; Korean isn't south Asian. East Asian, definitely, Bruce Lee (and perhaps Brandon Lee) counts. You can half count LOST, but I have mixed feelings about that.

I was thinking Pakistani, Indian, Afghani, etc in Hollywood. I can only think of Bollywood, but that doesn't count.

Whoops, sorry, getting my context mixed up. I'm so used to thinking of 'Asian' in the American context on this board ('Asian' in the UK refers exclusively to South Asian)

Since we've got quite a large Asian community in the UK you do tend to see Asian people depicted in relationships in soaps....including a recent Eastenders storyline in which an Asian man was in a gay relationship with a white man. The film 'East is East' showed a Pakistani man married to a white British woman (the film is set in the 70's) Dev Patel (of 'Slumdog Millionaire' fame) played Anwar in 'Skins', in which he had a relationship (also with a white girl)

So yeah. It's a slightly better situation here, but not exactly bursting with examples.

LJD
04-19-2013, 12:40 AM
Can't believe I forgot about Slumdog Millionaire.