Asians as "Perpetual Foreigners"

I know I said people are always surprised when I say my Asian mom was Canadian-born. But to be fair to these people...it is very rare to meet an Asian* person in their fifties--or even forties--in Toronto who is Canadian-born. It's just really that uncommon. My mom, if she were alive today, would be 52.

My mom's family is from southern China and speaks Toisanese--the language spoken by a lot of early Chinese immigrants to North America. At one point it was frequently spoken in Chinatown here. A lot of the workers who were brought over to build the railway were from the same area of China. But I know so few Toisanese people who aren't related to me. My mom had one friend who was, but I honestly can't think of anyone else in Toronto.

Immigrants from Hong Kong started coming in the 1970s or so, and that accounted for most Chinese immigrants here through to the 1990s. The Asian population really exploded in that time. For a long time, Cantonese was the language spoken at most Chinese establishments here, but that is now changing to Mandarin.

There are not many people of Japanese descent here, and while there seems to be a decent-sized Korean community, a lot of this has been relatively recent, in the past decade or two perhaps.

So although this city has an enormous Asian population, it is truly rare to meet someone who's Asian whose family came pre-1970, or someone my mom's age with a local accent. Asian people are as surprised as anyone else. So while I am tired of the surprised responses, I understand them; it's only truly grating when it turns into disbelief. Even myself, I feel some sort of strange kinship when I meet a middle-aged Asian person without an accent--this immediately makes me think of my mother.

Toronto is a city of immigrants. And I don't just mean descendants of immigrants: about half the population was born outside the country. Being the child of immigrants was sort of the norm where I grew up, and we'd have projects in school that would assume you'd have a family member (parent or grandparent) who was an immigrant to whom you could ask questions about their experiences. (Where I grew up, my dad's WASP background really was unusual, and all white people I knew were Jewish...)

It's not surprising, given all that, that my mom felt completely alienated from the Chinese community here. She could barely speak Toisanese, and even if she could, it would have been useless. She couldn't speak Cantonese or Mandarin. She'd go into the Asian mall, and they'd speak to her in one of those languages, and she'd have to say she only spoke English, which was awkward for her. She was brought up outside of Toronto, in a place with a tiny Chinese community, at a time when there was more focus on assimilation. And then she married a white guy, and her parents wouldn't go to the wedding. Her experience was just so vastly different from that of other Asian people her age in Toronto.


I'm not sure if it is different on the West Coast. But yeah, born and raised Asian-Canadians over the age of 40 here? Pretty damn rare. In my generation it is quite common though.

*I'm using it to refer to East Asians, because that's how it is typically used here.

#

None of this is to say, of course, that portrayals of Asians in the media aren't usually disappointing...For starts there are just so few of them. And then they get silly roles like these...

LJD said:

it is very rare to meet an Asian* person in their fifties--or even forties--in Toronto who is Canadian-born. It's just really that uncommon.

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Really? I never would have thought that. I would have thought Toronto to be a city on par with something like NYC for birth-diversity.

Cyia said:

Really? I never would have thought that. I would have thought Toronto to be a city on par with something like NYC for birth-diversity.

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This article is from Vancouver, but it's the best I could find:

Sim, Fung, and Yan are all members of a demographic profile that doesn’t get a lot of attention in the media: people of Chinese descent who were born in Canada. According to Statistics Canada, in 2006 there were 381,535 residents of Greater Vancouver who described themselves as belonging to the “Chinese visible minority”. Of those, fewer than 25 percent—90,440 local residents—were born in this country.

A few years ago, Yan conducted demographic research on people of Chinese ancestry who were born in Canada. He learned that they are much younger on average than the rest of the population in this region. There aren’t many Canadian-born seniors of Chinese heritage because a racist immigration law prevented Chinese people from immigrating to this country between 1923 and 1947.

The 2006 census reported that just over 70 percent of those who identified themselves as being Canadian-born in the “Chinese visible minority” category were under 25 years old. Another 12.9 percent were between 25 and 34. Only 8.6 percent were 35 to 44 years of age, and just 4.7 percent were 45 to 54. Fewer than four percent were 55 years and older.

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Even after the Chinese Exclusion Act was lifted, Chinese immigration was limited until 1967, 46 years ago. Until then, they were still discriminated against in the immigration policy. If you didn't already have relatives here, I think it was very difficult to come over. (My grandfather came in this time, and he was sponsored by his uncle. Not that he would have fared very well in the points system anyways...) So there aren't many older Canadian-born Chinese.

In 2006, Chinese population in Ontario: 644,465
In 1961: only 15,155

i.e. about a 43-fold increase in my mom's lifetime.
Given those numbers, it's not surprising that while I know a lot of people of Chinese origin her age, very few were born here.


I don't know how different it might be in NYC or elsewhere in the USA, though I believe the American immigration laws were similar.

This reminds me of the article Paper Tigers by Wesley Yang. He provides a lot of different perspectives (the article is quite long) but I thought it was very thought provoking. He says 2/3 of all Asian-Americans are foreign born, so just by playing the odds you'll be right more often than you are wrong by assuming an Asian was born elsewhere. I think it's similar to finding a native-born White African outside of South Africa (or even in SA, for that matter).

The points that stick out to me in Yang's article is the lack of Asians in CEO-level positions (the "Bamboo Ceiling"). Yang chalks this up to many, even American-born, Asians being trained to pass tests rather than to assume leadership roles. I see the same thing here in Africa, and that hampers development, but that's another story.

LJD said:

I don't know how different it might be in NYC or elsewhere in the USA, though I believe the American immigration laws were similar.

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Most Asians from census reports are in Seattle (the city) and the State of California, (mostly, then, in LA, and SF, I believe.)

There are other populations throughout the US, but that's the highest situation.

Even if I am first gen due to adoption, I still got the "You speak English good" thing and because of adoption, I was told what my racial identity "should" be. --;;

I figured out it was because I was Asian later. 'cause no other people I've run into who were internationally adopted and not Asian have gotten this. Which is just weird. Doesn't that prove it?

Though, as I listed, "The Myth of the Model Minority" also goes over that in quite a bit of detail, though mostly covering the US...

I mentioned in another thread that a girl in my school who had white/Korean parents was called "foreigner" by other kids, so I can see that for some reason this is apparently a common judgment.

I do think that while many Asian stereotypes don't seem demeaning on the surface (smart, martial arts bad-ass, rich) it's still got to be so annoying.

In my area, I don't see quite as much Asian discrimination or hear many negative jokes. I always just hear black or Mexican racism, but maybe just because there aren't too many people of any kind of Asian descent in my area?

There is the flip side to the "good" stereotype that Asians get.

For example, it has been shown that Asians do NOT make more money than African Americans in the same area. In fact, the majority, since they live in high metropolitan areas *look* like they are making more, but they aren't. They are in fact, often making the same as African Americans and Mexicans for the given area, while white populations in the same area, per capita make more. This means that government aide to those families and the persistent belief, means the group gets ignored.

The whole Martial Arts thing has also been used as prejudice against Asians by making sounds that are annoying. (though mostly to males). Which is ironic, because the other stereotype is that Asians are NOT good at sports. Which means, that people don't consider Martial Arts to be a sport???? It also means that Asians in movies are often cast into singular roles. While Bruce Lee and his son made huge inroads, East Asians have been type cast to those roles. (And South and South East Asians are not included into this stereotype, instead they get the silent yet deadly thing. *rolls eyes*)

The whole smart thing is also detrimental. Because of that belief, many Asians have been shown to be put into ESL, (I've heard stories), but then teachers will ignore problems with Science and Math, believing that the students will automatically do well. I've had people argue to my face that it's "cultural" and sometimes "genetic" which is why I suffered with math and science, but did fine with English (which they are convinced I have issues with). (But then they rub that with, "But you're not really Asian." --;; And then attribute my decent grades to being a Jew--you really can't win if people are that determined, can you?)

And because of these "positive" stereotypes, other minorities tend to think that Asians aren't a "real" minority because they've "made it" to the top tier, despite what is termed the "bamboo ceiling" in corporations. (i.e. A lack of any Asians in the top tier of management positions).

There is also a story about how Asians were treated as neither colored nor White, so they were kicked out of both lines. Whites didn't consider Asians as white and blacks would not consider them "colored".

Plus you have no idea how many time I've had to sit through some ignorant person recite to me and ARGUE with me that Asians have a high suicide rate. (You know, because of grades and stuff). The myth going about trying to jump out the window. <-- Has anyone else had to sit through this crap and no one will back you up?

All in all, the "success" of Asians is a myth perpetuated by making a pecking order based on skin color (general melanin production) usually to both keep Asian peoples and those below them at an economic disadvantage. Asians are a mythical "exception" to the rule.

And I should note that Asia both in Europe and in the Western powers have been bisected into "Middle East" <-- which is a term that makes no sense at all. "South Asia" "South East Asia" and "East Asia" Ignoring "North Asia" (AKA Russia) despite there being populations of Mongoloid descent in the part designated "Asian" part of Russia. (Every population has variation.)

I should add, though the whole, "All the cultures are the same" thing is probably the second most frustrating thing I have to argue down. "All the clothes look the same, the languages sound the same and you Asians can't make an r sound." --;; *fist shake* (The whole perpetual foreigner is the first, mostly because of frequency. At least for me.) This part kinda gets ignored. I've been studying to block it.

I would often warn people that I thought my answers were wrong and they'd copy it anyway.... --;; (And they were wrong... because Math was not my best subject... Reading comprehension and art were.)

@Kim
Did you see the video titled "Asians in the the Library" from a few years back. Yeah. That'll give you the gamut, live, from a person (if it hasn't been taken down... there will be clones). Plus there was a good parody song making fun of the person who said that. Bring your gag protection material.

It's an unfortunate stereotype Asians have to live through, but I think every minority--either religious or racial--has to go through it at one point or another. That doesn't make it right. It's more like a fact of life.

My father's parents came from a little shtetl (ghetto) in Odessa to Toronto circa 1900 and being a minority (Jewish) they were subjected to the usual religious intolerance of the day. Before them, the Italian crew had come in from various parts of Italy and they got the living crap kicked out of them as well by the Christian (probably Protestant) majority.

Growing up in Toronto, I knew a few kids of Chinese descent and they used to tell me stories of their parents abusing them, whacking them over the head if they didn't get high enough grades in school or excel at something. I didn't know if they were exaggerating or not, to be honest.

As for the stereotype in movies (i.e. rich and smart, clever at computers, or sneering villains who like boinking white mistresses) again, that's an unfortunate racial stereotype, but with Hollywood, these things take time to go away. Fifty years ago you had the typical portrayal of Asians as butlers, maids, apothecaries in herbal medicine shops, laundry owners, etc. There's been some progress, but really, things should change a little faster.

So says the white Jewish guy who lives in Japan, is married to a Japanese national, and everyone thinks my children automatically speak English well or that I'm rich. For the record, my older son (13) speaks English when he feels like it, my younger son (almost 10) isn't interested in learning although he has to (it's part of the school curriculum over here) and I'm struggling to make a living.

I put up with it and rail against the racism I've experienced over the years, but the attitudes here aren't going to change any time soon.

Rachel Udin said:

I should add, though the whole, "All the cultures are the same" thing is probably the second most frustrating thing I have to argue down. "All the clothes look the same, the languages sound the same and you Asians can't make an r sound." --;; *fist shake* (The whole perpetual foreigner is the first, mostly because of frequency. At least for me.) This part kinda gets ignored. I've been studying to block it.

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There are two different sides to this pendulum or something that need to be remedied: Myth One is: most people of a certain group or groups look alike. Myth Two is "What? You think I'm Mexican? I'm Puerto Rican, do I look Mexican to you?" (Yes, I actually heard someone say that. Of course, he is a major smart ass lol. When I got my newest hair cut he asked why I didn't just get a mullet and then claimed it wasn't a gay thing. Surrrree! But I have also heard other similar things in life, such as, no I'm not Chinese I'm Japanese, etc. I think you know what I mean here.)

I really didn't think about the fact that I have heard both of these stated many times by different people over the years until just the other day. The two pendulum swings don't seem to be able to co-exist. We know that all Koreans don't look alike, and all Japanese people don't look alike. Yet there are also supposed to be ways to tell if a person is from Korea or Japan, maybe that is just not by looks alone, though. But especially if someone is not living in/wasn't born in that country, only speaks English, this could be a bit difficult to judge. My exchange student friend from Japan actually had conversations about these things with me but now I forget any of the things we said. That was in 1998! We wrote letters for a while but have now lost touch completely.

I think a well-rounded education about life in general must be the only remedy for all of this.

Rachel I will have to check out that video. In my own writing, the only people who are of Asian descent so far are multi-racial. I have a character who is black and Japanese and another who is Chinese/Japanese/white, it is in the future, and in book one my main character Serenity doesn't know anything about the labels due to government brainwashing. Book Two adds the knowledge of another character, and Serenity is going to learn these kinds of things, along with more knowledge about sexuality and religion. But as I try to promote all kinds of diversity, I would definitely need to make sure I am not offensive on any level!

I'm white, living in Osaka.

Everyone thinks I'm American. (Born in Toronto)
Everyone thinks I must be Christian and celebrate Christmas. (Nope, wrong on that one, too).
Everyone thinks I have a great job as an English teacher and make oodles of money. (Like my job, make very little cash, and my family is just getting by).

Oh, and everyone thinks I MUST either speak Japanese perfectly or not at all. There's never any in-between.

It's tough being me...

#8084785
>Everyone thinks I must be Christian and celebrate Christmas

Please tell me you at least get the traditional Christmas KFC?

kuwisdelu said:

>get mistaken for Mexican all the time
>I'm Native American
>even Mexicans think I'm Mexican

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Well, the look typically associated with Mexicans and most Latinos come from a mix of Amerindian, Mediterranean European and African to a bigger or lesser degree depending on the country but giving a mixed-raced majority (over 60% in Venezuela and well over 80% in Mexico).

Generally, the idea of multiculturalism has been used in Latin America as an ideal of Latinos being a new race taking the best of these three backgrounds, but at the end I think it erases said backgrounds. I've been thinking on making a thread about it, but it's hard to think how to focus it.

By the way, very few think I'm Latino here in Venezuela. They tend to ask me or point out if I'm foreigner because I'm too fair-skinned and well-spoken. It hurts me. A lot.

J.S.F. said:

It's an unfortunate stereotype Asians have to live through, but I think every minority--either religious or racial--has to go through it at one point or another. That doesn't make it right. It's more like a fact of life.

My father's parents came from a little shtetl (ghetto) in Odessa to Toronto circa 1900 and being a minority (Jewish) they were subjected to the usual religious intolerance of the day. Before them, the Italian crew had come in from various parts of Italy and they got the living crap kicked out of them as well by the Christian (probably Protestant) majority.

Growing up in Toronto, I knew a few kids of Chinese descent and they used to tell me stories of their parents abusing them, whacking them over the head if they didn't get high enough grades in school or excel at something. I didn't know if they were exaggerating or not, to be honest.

As for the stereotype in movies (i.e. rich and smart, clever at computers, or sneering villains who like boinking white mistresses) again, that's an unfortunate racial stereotype, but with Hollywood, these things take time to go away. Fifty years ago you had the typical portrayal of Asians as butlers, maids, apothecaries in herbal medicine shops, laundry owners, etc. There's been some progress, but really, things should change a little faster.

So says the white Jewish guy who lives in Japan, is married to a Japanese national, and everyone thinks my children automatically speak English well or that I'm rich. For the record, my older son (13) speaks English when he feels like it, my younger son (almost 10) isn't interested in learning although he has to (it's part of the school curriculum over here) and I'm struggling to make a living.

I put up with it and rail against the racism I've experienced over the years, but the attitudes here aren't going to change any time soon.

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I'd class this into the general xenophobia among Japanese. (though, I will note it's not everyone, and it is getting better.)

I should also note that White foreigners, while polarized, are usually treated better on average, as long as they stay foreigners and don't take jobs. There is admiration for English, etc. Whereas Japanese does not hold the same value in the US, so it's not quite an equal serving.

Japanese view of African descent is also that they must either be from Africa or be African American, despite that any of the black actors I have seen on Japanese television have been actually from Samoa!

The line between xenophobia and racism is kinda a fine line, but it is different. In this case, xenophobia states that they don't want you to be *in* the country on other than visiting purposes. Racism, in our case is kinda sanctioned--as long as they are doing the jobs we won't do, from cotton picking, rail road building, blowing up Mount Rushmore, strawberry picking, etc, it's fine. But we'll appear to hate it as much as possible, though we'll continue to buy things like tomatoes.

The political attitude is slightly different.

I should also note, that unlike the US, teachers are held in better esteem in Japan than the US. So while relegated to certain jobs, it still isn't like picking tomatoes on a hot field kind of relegation.

Oh, and there is a ceiling (last report from the 1980's, though) in most organizations, but it's to all "foreigners". That includes Japanese-born Koreans. In which they often end up hiding their heritage in order to get and keep jobs.

Overall, though, from what I've seen, it has markedly gotten better... though I don't know if it is quantifiable... occasionally, Japanese do block foreign ideas, such as "Gangnam Style" song, but conversely, they loved Dae Jang Geum and Winter Sonata... so... it's not always even.

Not saying it makes it better, but I am pointing out that it's not quite racism.

Kim Fierce said:

There are two different sides to this pendulum or something that need to be remedied: Myth One is: most people of a certain group or groups look alike. Myth Two is "What? You think I'm Mexican? I'm Puerto Rican, do I look Mexican to you?" (Yes, I actually heard someone say that. Of course, he is a major smart ass lol. When I got my newest hair cut he asked why I didn't just get a mullet and then claimed it wasn't a gay thing. Surrrree! But I have also heard other similar things in life, such as, no I'm not Chinese I'm Japanese, etc. I think you know what I mean here.)

I really didn't think about the fact that I have heard both of these stated many times by different people over the years until just the other day. The two pendulum swings don't seem to be able to co-exist. We know that all Koreans don't look alike, and all Japanese people don't look alike. Yet there are also supposed to be ways to tell if a person is from Korea or Japan, maybe that is just not by looks alone, though. But especially if someone is not living in/wasn't born in that country, only speaks English, this could be a bit difficult to judge. My exchange student friend from Japan actually had conversations about these things with me but now I forget any of the things we said. That was in 1998! We wrote letters for a while but have now lost touch completely.

I think a well-rounded education about life in general must be the only remedy for all of this.

Rachel I will have to check out that video. In my own writing, the only people who are of Asian descent so far are multi-racial. I have a character who is black and Japanese and another who is Chinese/Japanese/white, it is in the future, and in book one my main character Serenity doesn't know anything about the labels due to government brainwashing. Book Two adds the knowledge of another character, and Serenity is going to learn these kinds of things, along with more knowledge about sexuality and religion. But as I try to promote all kinds of diversity, I would definitely need to make sure I am not offensive on any level!

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It's more like....

Someone blank out tells me to my face, and not in a curious way, "You know Asians all look alike." And if they look "different" then it's because of "their eyes" (even if that's not true).

I usually, for the record can spot a Korean by how they dressed, especially Koreans who are middle-aged women... which is an internal joke to Korea. (That group is called ajumma). Also body language gives it away a lot, but that probably comes from me cramming culture and various media.

Or in one case, "All Asian clothing looks alike."<-- definitely not. There are You Tube videos on a range of school girl styles comparing the three... plus it ranged a lot over time.

And if you correct them, they get that look on their face like, "Why do you care so much?"

Which is annoying.... why did you bring it up if you didn't want to discuss it? Just to piss off the person in front of you?

So frustrating...

BTW, Japanese, Korean, Mongolian and Chinese are very different in sound. Which is more larger than the dialects of Spanish in Middle and South America (excluding Portugese for Brazil). The grammar is closest in Japanese to Korean, but the inflection in both languages is quite wide. While formal Japanese often has an even beat, Korean often has elongated vowels to make emphasis and far more repetition (The rules are different... I've messed up and spoken Japanese Korean style a few times when switching, which must be funny). Korean R and Japanese R are also different, and Korean has a future tense, but Japanese doesn't. Korean will use the occasional plural, but Japanese tends to forgo plurals, if there are any at all. (the closest in Japanese is taichi... but it's not a real plural.)

And all four writing styles are very, very different.

Chinese isn't even related. (Also Chinese has some straight r's as well.)

Covering the rest of Asia would take too long... but there are several language groups, and several grammar schemes. In India there are I think, three-four language groups... and then several sub languages. Even if you learn the basics, it's pretty fast to pick out the differences (unless your mind has been cramming too much of each language and you're picking out Korean in Japanese and Japanese in Korean, but then I do that to English with both languages too. --;; <-- that's called a brain fry.)

Anyway, Asians in the Library video pretty much is mixing up Chinese stereotypes with some really big insensitivity since it was RIGHT after the earthquake tsunami nuclear scare thing... and hits about every single last stereotype on the list. From the Yellow scare (they are all invading in faceless hoards), down to the permanent foreigner. (With the matching "disclaimer" to match, which sounds a lot like, "You know I am not racist.") I should note I don't agree with how some people handled responding to it... often with sexist stereotypes. (Don't read the comment thread)

maxmordon said:

Well, the look typically associated with Mexicans and most Latinos come from a mix of Amerindian, Mediterranean European and African to a bigger or lesser degree depending on the country but giving a mixed-raced majority (over 60% in Venezuela and well over 80% in Mexico).

Generally, the idea of multiculturalism has been used in Latin America as an ideal of Latinos being a new race taking the best of these three backgrounds, but at the end I think it erases said backgrounds. I've been thinking on making a thread about it, but it's hard to think how to focus it.

By the way, very few think I'm Latino here in Venezuela. They tend to ask me or point out if I'm foreigner because I'm too fair-skinned and well-spoken. It hurts me. A lot.

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And Native American/First Nation looks to be mostly from Asia... (ancient Asia) *some* of the ideas of language religion and definitely genetics says so. Making Latino descent, by and large a mix of all of the races, but also means there is a large range in skin tone.

#8084894

>all Asians look alike
One thing that annoys me is when people ask "why are all anime characters white?" and then insist it's because "Japanese people want to be white," but they refuse notice that the Caucasian characters are usually drawn markedly differently than Japanese characters.

>And Native American/First Nation looks to be mostly from Asia
Going theory is that my tribe (Zuni) are part Japanese and/or Ainu. Both Zuni (Shiwima) and Japanese are language isolates and share morphological and phonetic similarities that set them apart from neighboring languages. They sound quite alike.

kuwisdelu said:

One thing that annoys me is when people ask "why are all anime characters white?"

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I just facepalmed with this.

That's like asking why all ancient Romans in the movies speak with British accents.

#8084968
>like asking why all ancient Romans in the movies speak with British accents

Nah, that's more like why do Kansai dialects turn into Southern accents in English dubs.

Rachel Udin said:

And Native American/First Nation looks to be mostly from Asia... (ancient Asia) *some* of the ideas of language religion and definitely genetics says so. Making Latino descent, by and large a mix of all of the races, but also means there is a large range in skin tone.

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Indeed. Colonial Spaniards attempted to de a categorization about it from every conceivable racial combination at the time and it's staggering, compared to the one-drop rule.

At the same time, it's amusing the contrast on what makes a person "white" or "black" according to Latin American and North American standards. Generally, it implies all of your parents are of one race, which is more often than not the exception.

What sucks is it's possible to be full-blooded Native American, but not enough % from any single tribe to claim legal membership of any of them, disqualifying you from some benefits.

kuwisdelu said:

Nah, that's more like why do Kansai dialects turn into Southern accents in English dubs.

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So it would be like how... narrative tend to be biased toward white male heroes since white male heroes has been the protagonists due to white males having written the most widely spread and published media in the last centuries.

I remember reading, for example, Perdido Street Station by China Miéville and keeping imagining the swarthy middle-aged overweight protagonist as white, young and thin first out of default.

By the way, don't get me started about dubs. Here dub actors attempt to weed out dialects and accents since dubbing for +20 countries, each with their own idionsyncrastic way to talk is hard.

#8085112
>how narrative tend to be biased toward white male heroes

More like how readers tend to be biased to assume white male heroes.

And don't seem to notice that anime and manga artists draw Western characters differently (wider chins, bigger noses) than Japanese characters.

kuwisdelu said:

What sucks is it's possible to be full-blooded Native American, but not enough % from any single tribe to claim legal membership of any of them, disqualifying you from some benefits.

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It seems like there should be something in that which would be taken into consideration!!!!!

kuwisdelu said:

What sucks is it's possible to be full-blooded Native American, but not enough % from any single tribe to claim legal membership of any of them, disqualifying you from some benefits.

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That's disheartening... There's also the opposite view in some other places. I took a class on Native Ethnicities last semester and was surprised about 1) How many distinct tribes there were in Venezuela alone and 2) How all of them are bungled together and left to their own devices with only basic schooling, first aid help and nothing more with few changes of improving their lives and their community and pretty much uncapable of defending themselves against crooked Armed Forces units, illegal Brazilian miners, Colombian guerrilla and being exploited as farm hand.

This reached a critical point last year when a Pemón community kidnapped an Army unit who would abuse them and demanded their Commander to step down from that area.

kuwisdelu said:

#8084785
>Everyone thinks I must be Christian and celebrate Christmas

Please tell me you at least get the traditional Christmas KFC?

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---

Nope.