Great Britain in the 1960s

LoneRider

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I'm working on some future parts of a fanfiction of mine based on the X-men First Class story and I'm curious about British society of the late 1960s (1964-1969) timeframe.

I'm curious specifically what life would be life in that era for a garrison town in the UK (Aldershot and Hereford are where the male character of mine lives). One of my future plot points involves my male and female lead characters in my story getting married and settling down in the UK (where my male lead is from).

The lead female character is Moira MacTaggert from the X-men: First Class film. I've gone with the retcon from that film (American and in my story a former member of the US CIA) and educated at Georgetown University.

I know her being American would stick her out like a sore thumb amongst the other wives in Aldershot, but I'm trying to think of other things she might have difficulty with dealing with wives of other British Army officers with in mid-to late 1960s Britain.
 

LoneRider

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Yes it does. My male lead is an officer with the SAS. He also served in the Parachute Regiment.
 

Weirdmage

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I know they are from the wrong time period, but if you go to Amazon and search for "married to the sas" you'll find two books written by wives of SAS soldiers. Not sure that is helpful to you. -Should be possible to find some info on life in the UK in the '60s, not sure where you'd look for info on being an army wife at the time though. Hope someone else here can give you more help than I can.
 

waylander

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My uncle was an army officer during this time period.
A lot of officers wives at that times would have been upper middle class/privately educated. The lifestyle was pretty good with lots of events at the officers mess, subsided housing in married quarters, allowances for private education for children. The wives were often encouraged to do a certain amount of welfare work (run by the colonel's wife) for the ordinary soldiers' wives.
 

LoneRider

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A lot of officers wives at that times would have been upper middle class/privately educated. The lifestyle was pretty good with lots of events at the officers mess, subsided housing in married quarters, allowances for private education for children. The wives were often encouraged to do a certain amount of welfare work (run by the colonel's wife) for the ordinary soldiers' wives.
Sounds like a good bit of information. I'm wondering if she'd be seen as outsider because she's American versus being from the UK by some of the wives (an imagined possible conflict)?

A plot point was inspired by a line from Andy McNab's Immediate Action which said, "Several wives wore their ranks worse than their blokes." so I'm imagining Moira maybe running afoul of a spouse who introduces herself as, "Mrs. Smith, wife of Colonel Smith."
 
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waylander

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A lot would depend on the character of the colonel's wife - she is the unofficial commanding officer of the wives. If she is a snobbish bitch who feels superior to an American then conflict is likely.
There are plenty of things to fall out over. Your character is educated, few, if any, of the wives would be university graduates. Many might be daughters of officers. The Suez crisis would be a recent event for some of the older wives, particularly if their husbands served through it. A lot of the socialising could be sports based: rugby, cricket, point-to-point racing. So if your character has no interest in these then there's another point of conflict.
 
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Shakesbear

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Fashion could be a huge divider - the mini skirt was seen by some women, young and old, as being the Devil's Work. I seem to recall being told by a friend who was in the Paras during the 60s that officers wives had to present a 'staid' appearance. Going against that was seen as unacceptable. Being an American would not automatically set her apart from the rest - if the colonels wife was one of the 'who are her people/family?' types she might either have a social entrée or be ostracised. There are so many nuances that anything could cause her problems - from the right shade of lipstick to knowing what to do with a napkin at a regimental bash. Her possible ignorance of all sorts of things would also make her a possible target for being set up by another wife feeding her false information.
 

ClareGreen

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If she's educated and ex-CIA, she'll have a lot less trouble in some regards and a lot more trouble in others.

She'll already have at least some understanding of how military people think, but she's going to find that conversations stop or change when she walks into a room - especially in Hereford. If they know she's ex-CIA, she's going to be politely but firmly held at arm's length, on the assumption that she's still working in intelligence for a foreign power.

Her husband is going to get looked down on for having the poor taste to fall in love with an American, and not even a girl from the Commonwealth. Fell head over heels for the honeytrap, what an idiot.
 

LoneRider

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Thanks for the information. This is inspiring quite a few ideas and even helps me flesh out my male lead even more.

He's a veteran of both the Paras and SAS, having served in the Paras as a lieutenant before attending Selection and making it into the SAS as a senior lieutenant and serving with 22 SAS as a captain before returning to the Paras as a senior captain/junior major before returning to Hereford as a major with 22 SAS. I did read in McNab's book that officers in the SAS only served portions of their careers in 22 SAS, versus other ranks who could spend almost the entirety of their careers in the Regiment.

For my female lead, from your insights I've got all sorts of neat little dynamics that can form. In Aldershot she'd be dealing with the staid image that Shakesbear mentioned that wives in the Parachute Regiment were to have. And I assume wives in the 1960s didn't work? Because I've got her working selling insurance, since my female lead isn't the sort to be a housewife.

Even more dynamics I came up with is the male character's lead is a battalion commander with 1 Para (his son serves in 3 Para). My male lead and his father did disagree about the former joining the SAS as a captain, but reconciled that. I had the male lead's mum remind, gently, her husband that he had broken with family traditions himself by joining the Paras versus staying with the 'Family Regiment' (in this case the 7th Queen's Own Hussars). I'd heard of the concept of 'a family regiment' when reading Sniper One by Dan Mills where the author mentioned that the Princess of Wales Royal Regiment was a unit his family had historically served in.

And ClareGreen, thanks for this insight in particular:

Her husband is going to get looked down on for having the poor taste to fall in love with an American, and not even a girl from the Commonwealth. Fell head over heels for the honeytrap, what an idiot.
I imagine that to be a problem in both Aldershot and Hereford? And at Hereford our female lead, since her husband is B Squadron's commander, she'd have some seniority amongst the spouses? And that would be a neat source of tension there, especially if the Regimental commander's spouse holds that same opinion.

All sorts of neat tension dynamics could come into play with that 'poor taste' angle whispered behind the couple's backs and behind closed doors.
 

clee984

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I don't know if this helps you at all, but my grandfather served in WW2, and although he went back to civilian life, my dad (born 1950) has told me that he remembers my grandad would frequently go off on "weekend maneouvres" in the territorials with the mates he served with, and that when he did, their wives tended to get together for the evening too, to chat etc.

And this was Southampton, late 50s, early 60s.
 

waylander

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Officers wives of the 1960s did not generally have jobs
 

ClareGreen

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Agreeing with Waylander; an officer's wife in that period would not usually have a job, especially if her husband was anything above a Lieutenant. However, sitting about idle wasn't done - she'd be doing any of the womanly crafts such as embroidery, and/or volunteering for charity/the Girl Guides/etc. Officers were to be perceived as upper or middle class, and a married upper or middle class woman did not work.

As to the American bit - does she have to be CIA? The Scottish version of Moira MacTaggart could be British Intelligence, even previously assigned to the British Embassy in the USA and with contacts in the CIA, if it's a more general Intelligence angle you're looking for. The reason I ask is that I know would-be SAS are scrutinised very heavily from a security standpoint, but I don't have the specific knowledge to say whether a CIA wife would have been enough of a reason for your MC's husband to get flat-out denied the SAS or not.
 

LoneRider

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As to the American bit - does she have to be CIA?
Yes, I'm sticking with that particular piece of canon from X-men First Class.

As to how the pair first met, they were assigned to work together on a joint US/UK mission that went badly. Details are here in this fic: Disavowed (goes to fanfiction.net)

Her husband, Captain Carl Allenby was a member of 22 SAS on this joint operation at the time. The story that this thread brainstorms deals heavily with his return to the Parachute Regiment after his time with the SAS.

Agreeing with Waylander; an officer's wife in that period would not usually have a job, especially if her husband was anything above a Lieutenant. However, sitting about idle wasn't done - she'd be doing any of the womanly crafts such as embroidery, and/or volunteering for charity/the Girl Guides/etc. Officers were to be perceived as upper or middle class, and a married upper or middle class woman did not work.
I assume this was a long-standing tradition in the United Kingdom?

I'm also curious about the concept of family members having histories of being in the same unit. I've got Captain Allenby being the son of Lieutenant Colonel Allenby who was a first generation Para. I am considering writing that his son's choice to break family tradition by joining the SAS as a junior captain was a source of strain for a few years.

I thought of a way that conflict was resolved being that my male character's mother reminded his father that he had broken tradition too by leaving the 7th Queen's Own Hussars and joining the Paras when they first formed in World War II.

Also I'm curious about socializing with spouses of other ranks. Like if Moira were to befriend the wife of a senior non-com would that be considered offensive in that day and age?

Also, is there a particular reason that a British Army officer marrying an American woman would be cause for disdain? I'm just curious where that attitude could have originated given it had been some time since the War of 1812.
 

ClareGreen

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I assume this was a long-standing tradition in the United Kingdom?

A wife not working wasn't so much long-standing tradition as How Things Were. The husband went out and earned the money, and as long as he made enough to allow her to do so, the wife looked after the house and children and spent her spare time doing Worthwhile Things. Only working-class women and unmarried girls worked; educated women were mostly nurses or teachers, and usually spinsters. One of my grandmothers didn't work a single day after she was married.

I'm also curious about the concept of family members having histories of being in the same unit. I've got Captain Allenby being the son of Lieutenant Colonel Allenby who was a first generation Para. I am considering writing that his son's choice to break family tradition by joining the SAS as a junior captain was a source of strain for a few years.

I thought of a way that conflict was resolved being that my male character's mother reminded his father that he had broken tradition too by leaving the 7th Queen's Own Hussars and joining the Paras when they first formed in World War II.

The Paras and the SAS work slightly differently to the regular regiments; both take men from other regiments via a selection process. With the SAS, you're listed as still being a member of your parent regiment until you go back to them. Any medals you win while in the SAS are officially attributed to your parent regiment, and so forth.

While you can go into the Paras from basic training as an infantryman now, I'm not sure about historically, or doing that as an officer. Either way, he's more likely to have joined the family regiment and gone on from there, which would resolve at least a part of that conflict.

Also I'm curious about socializing with spouses of other ranks. Like if Moira were to befriend the wife of a senior non-com would that be considered offensive in that day and age?

Officers are needed, yes, but sergeants are vital. Befriending a sergeant is always wise, and the strictures of rank were much less rigid for the wives. Friendship with a sergeant's wife would be perfectly fine, but the class divide would always be present, possibly even more so than the husbands' ranks.

Also, is there a particular reason that a British Army officer marrying an American woman would be cause for disdain? I'm just curious where that attitude could have originated given it had been some time since the War of 1812.

It's not so much marrying an American woman that would be the problem as marrying American Intelligence. Congratulations, Johnson, as a senior officer of the most secretive and security-conscious part of the British Army you've managed to knowingly marry a foreign spy.

When I say 'secretive' and 'security-conscious', I mean it. There are great big black bars over the eyes of any released photos of SAS personnel so they can't be identified from the pictures, and the pre-joining security interviews encompass friends and family.
 

waylander

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It is not so long ago that women were expected to give up work when they got married. A man would not be granted permission to marry by the father of a 'nicely brought up girl' unless he could afford to keep her in respectable circumstances.
 

LoneRider

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Officers are needed, yes, but sergeants are vital. Befriending a sergeant is always wise, and the strictures of rank were much less rigid for the wives. Friendship with a sergeant's wife would be perfectly fine, but the class divide would always be present, possibly even more so than the husbands' ranks.

So how pronounced of a class divide would this be?
 

waylander

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My guess is that it might be rather less in a young elite 'action' regiment like the Paras. If we were talking about one of the old socially elite regiments like the Guards or the Cavalry it would be huge.
 

ClareGreen

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Oh, crumbs. How to condense the British class system and the army that both typifies and breaks it into short paragraphs. Firstly, the rules are a little looser now than they were in the 60's, but the class system is still very much a part of our society. Please understand that these are massive, sweeping generalisations, and that I am not now nor have never been a soldier. I've spent a long time around the Forces looking in, but I don't have the experience to give you anything more than educated guesses.

The social classes are almost a caste system. The class of your parents determines your class, as the class of their parents determined theirs. It is possible for someone to change their class, but it's almost always a multi-generational effort, and starts with a family close to the 'borders' of their class - who had been of the other class a few generations back, or whose occupation straddles the borders.

The upper class are the nobility, the old money and the landowners (and proud of it). They are the ones who lead. 'Gentlemen' by definition, in the army they are also the 'officer' class and always have been. Most families who consider a particular regiment their family regiment are upper class, but becoming an officer was (and still remains) one of the classic roles for the upper class male. However, there aren't that many upper class males to start with, compared to the other classes.

The middle class are the intellectuals, the ones who think (and are proud of it). They can rise to the upper class over the generations, by sending their children to the right schools and having enough money, but they have a substantially different set of values. Most middle-class people remaining in the army in the 60's will have been officers, but some few will have been enlisted. They tend towards the younger regiments and the specialist trades, such as Military Intelligence, Communications and Engineering - the ones that require technical proficiency or other learning, more than those that require charismatic leadership. Compared to the upper and lower classes the middle class don't send many to the army, but there are a few families with military traditions and while a family regiment is not unheard of, a family occupation is more common.

The lower class are the working class, the ones who labour (and are proud of it). The vast majority of enlisted are lower class, while very few officers have a working class background. This is the other place where deep familial regimental ties are found, and this is where the 'area' a regiment is supposed to recruit from is most important. The regional regimental names are more than just places, they're where that regiment belongs and where most of its men belong to.

The socially elite regiments can have enlisted from almost anywhere, though there was often a set of criteria for getting in, based on wealth, possessions or background - a cavalryman in the pre-WWI days had to be able to ride, for instance.

The Paras are an elite regiment of another kind. They take only those enlisted men who have passed through a training regime designed to make sure that a Paratrooper is one of the best the army has to offer. I'm not sure about their officer criteria - that's not something I've ever looked at - but most Paras came from another regiment to start with (and some go on to SAS Selection, but that's another tale). Becoming a Para is an aspiration, rather than a default position, and as far as I understand it there are few conflicts between loyalty to the Paras and loyalty to the 'home' regiment.

Meanwhile, back to the question - a sergeant is typically a paragon of the working class, a solid and practical man with a wealth of experience who knows how to get things done. He's the go-to man when you don't know something, and it's his job to know everything. A married sergeant of that era would be expected to have a wife who's similar. Competent and capable, she would be expected to provide support and experience for the younger wives of the regiment, whatever their class. She'd be a veteran of moving herself and the children to another country with a few weeks' notice, of spending days and weeks without word from her husband, and of taking care of everything a husband was more usually expected to do in the pre-feminist era.

The officers' wives would in turn be expected to know how to work with older women of the working class. The class divide informs everything, but the gulf between upper and lower class is a lot wider than the gulf between middle and lower class. I suspect a larger proportion of wives in the Paras would have been middle class, rather than upper; the type of elitism involved lends itself more to those with aspirations than those who already know they are at the top of the heap.

There would be mutual respect between the wives, but in general the British know their place and aspire to better their family's lot, rather than wanting to bring the whole system crashing down. A sergeant is in one of those occupations which pushes the boundary between working class and middle class, for instance. The sergeant himself will remain working class, but his children or grandchildren may be able to make the transition, especially if his wife has made the right friends.

An American thrown into all this - none of which is written down anywhere - could make gaffe after gaffe after gaffe, all without realising it.
 

jaksen

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But she would find allies here and there, though it might be hard to dig them out: a colonel's wife whose grandfather 'worked in the mines' and she's hidden this from everyone. Or an upper-class wife who finds it thrilling to be a bit rebellious and when she goes out (with your character) changes from her dowdy tweeds into a mini-skirt.

In every upper class group there's always a few chafing to get out, be different, be 'dangerous.' The majority will drag her back into the herd when/if they find out. "Marjorie's always been a little off her head!"

Your character might turn up more than a few of these. Might spice up the social aspects of your story.

My sister-in-law was the wife of a high-ranking American officer stationed in the UK at this time. She made LOTS of friends and her background, in the US, was solidly working class. (Her father, my father-in-law drove a truck.) She wasn't accepted right away, but she went to church, she threw parties (to which few came at first) but her best UK friends still keep in touch. (She lives in Maine now.) Friendliness and persistence helped her break down many of those social barriers and constraints. And yes, the two examples in my first paragraph were real people.
 

ClareGreen

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Seconding Jaksen, with thanks. There's always some who stand out from the crowd and an American will get a bit of leeway, especially if she's obviously trying to be nice.
 

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Yeah, I think an American officer's wife would get a lot more leeway than a British one purely because she wouldn't be expected to know all the unwritten rules that make up the class system.
 

LoneRider

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But she would find allies here and there, though it might be hard to dig them out: a colonel's wife whose grandfather 'worked in the mines' and she's hidden this from everyone. Or an upper-class wife who finds it thrilling to be a bit rebellious and when she goes out (with your character) changes from her dowdy tweeds into a mini-skirt.

In every upper class group there's always a few chafing to get out, be different, be 'dangerous.' The majority will drag her back into the herd when/if they find out. "Marjorie's always been a little off her head!"

Your character might turn up more than a few of these. Might spice up the social aspects of your story.

Definitely. I also think that her husband's Battalion (3 Para) going over to Northern Ireland would also mean the spouses do get close to each other as well.

The socially elite regiments can have enlisted from almost anywhere, though there was often a set of criteria for getting in, based on wealth, possessions or background - a cavalryman in the pre-WWI days had to be able to ride, for instance.

I assume that's the various Guards units, the Black Watch, Scottish Highlanders and Household Cavalry?
 

ClareGreen

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I assume that's the various Guards units, the Black Watch, Scottish Highlanders and Household Cavalry?

I know most of that list are old-fashioned elites, but I don't know much more than that - the army is not my specialist subject, just one I know a bit about.

The exception are the Scottish Highlanders, and they're a regional regiment rather than an elite. The regiments that have been amalgamated into the Highlanders over the centuries have had long and storied histories, but the Highlanders themselves are from an area of Scotland which includes Glasgow.
 

waylander

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I assume that's the various Guards units, the Black Watch, Scottish Highlanders and Household Cavalry?

I wouldn't include the Scottish regiments in the 'social elite'. Their recruitment was as noted above, much more regionally based and they kept a very traditional Scottish feel to the regiments i.e. own pipe band, traditional drees uniform with kilt.