Pictures First vs. Words First

Status
Not open for further replies.

Atomic Bear

the Bruin of Tomorrow™
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
173
Reaction score
15
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Website
www.atomicbearpress.com
I am just finishing my MS for my Graphic Novel and I was interested in how people script their comic. Since the word and pictures must work together, neither one more or less important. Do you write a script in pictures first or words first.

I mostly work with pictures first. I am an artist who writes. But my process moves back and forth between the pictures and the words. I see the comic like my own animated feature, and I am visualizing all the shots flowing from my pencil.

What do you guys do?
 

Jaoman

Registered
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
49
Reaction score
3
Location
Vancouver BC Canada
I'm not sure I understand the question. You write a script, you don't draw it. That is the nature of the script. What are you asking?
 

Atomic Bear

the Bruin of Tomorrow™
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
173
Reaction score
15
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Website
www.atomicbearpress.com
Jaoman said:
I'm not sure I understand the question. You write a script, you don't draw it. That is the nature of the script. What are you asking?

A script can be any sequence of notation whether in pictures or words, or both. It is true that most would consider a script as the text of a play or movie.

But as a sole comic creator I work in both. I got excited and forgot that the majority of story tellers here are writers on Absolute Write. My bad.

A better question would be if you work in Plot or Script style and how you interacted with the artist. I personally do a reverse plot style, I guess.

A perfect example of the difference is by Marv Wolfman from Panel One: comic book scripts by top writers, edited my Nat Gertler.

I did all my Marvel work and much of my DC work plot style. When you're working with someone who understands story telling, there is nothing better.

Plot style allows the artist to 'play' with the descriptions, to, one hopes, come up with a more powerful story telling, will pace out the material properly. They'll know who to focus the drawing on, and they'll give the page cinematic, dynamism that you might not get otherwise. By nature the artist sees things visually and the writer things conceptually. Comics are a hybrid of the two. When you work script style the writer is telling the artist what to do. When you work plot style, writer and artist are a team.

Once the artist has drawn the page the writer gets it back to write in the dialog and indicate balloon placement. If the story telling is good, the writer can eliminate a lot of exposition and spend his time writing better character driven dialogue. I have found this works wonderfully when I worked with artist...

Writer and artist are working together as a unit to tell a better graphic story instead of the art merely servicing the writer or writer trying to explain the art. When story and art mesh as one the result is a better comic for everyone. Neither the artist nor the writer should be the star. The story should be all that's important.

BTW, the book is excellent. I learned a lot from it. For more on the man who brought it into being, visit http://www.gertler.com/nat/homepage.htm.

For example. I just printed out my 215 page graphic manuscript at Kinkos. I brought together very roughly drawn pages into the computer (using Adobe inDesign), I added in dialog and rought word balloons. I edited some, but it's always easyer to edit on the print out. So tonight I sat for an hour and went through the printed out script editing the dialog and sketching in notes of how the art had to change to make it work. I know have the story close enough to get some feedback from others, and then begin the final art.

I have worked very little with another writer, but I imagine the work flow might be something like this:

- A writer creates a synopsis
- the artist draws designs and models of what the characters and settings look like
- the writer becomes inspired by the way the artist draw something and alters their words
- the artist interprets the story following the altered script
- and the writer alters their words after seeing the final rendered images



So my NEW question is for those who have worked on comic book project (or are working on one now), how you worked to create harmony with the final art work.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Last edited:

Jaoman

Registered
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
49
Reaction score
3
Location
Vancouver BC Canada
The problem with scripting plot style is its vulnerability to idiocy. Something goes the way of the toilet when you're doing regular scripting, you've only got yourself to blame and you can learn from it and not repeat the error. When you're working plot style with an artist, you're putting all your trust in that artist, as well as most of the responsibility for getting the story right. Not to say, of course, that the artist cannot handle that responsibility; however, there's no reason for you to believe it. You know yourself, but you don't know the artist.

Just as art and anatomy are complex patterns to master, much the same can be said for writing and storytelling. Some writers spend all their lives seeking the perfection of it. A person who apparently needs a writer, logically, isn't likely to be a master of the form. Especially in serialized story telling, a la comics, if one wants to tell an ongoing story, a lot of continuity and relation has to be carried over from one month to another. Little references, thematic statements, etc, unless the artist has done as much background work as the writer - outlines, character guides, thematic planning, and the works - it would be almost impossible for him not to miss all these things in the construction of the story, leaving the writer only with dialogue to include them. Resultantly, either something is sacrificed or the dialogue begins to take a wooden and out of context feel at times.

Lastly, speaking for me as a writer, aesthetic integrity in the story is very important to me. Unless I know the artist really well, I'm going to be uncomfortable surrendering that kind of power. Basically, I trust myself more so than another. And I prefer to blame myself too.

That saying, it should in no way be doubted that the artist is a crucial collaborator in any successful book, that good communication is imperative, and that he understands the visual realm and what he can do with it far better than I. Therefore, when I did my comic project my methodology was one of adaptation and adaptability. The first few script I wrote without an artist and did a lot of playing around with descriptions and tricks. When the artist came on board, I studied how he was responding to different descriptions and what visually were his stronger and weaker traits. Than I changed the way I write to accommodate that. That has since had a profound influence on the way I approach comic scripting. Typically now, I describe by Panel, but only in general action (Character does so and so). I do not give layouts or angle directions. At most I will specify "camera" distance, with very few exceptions otherwise. Occasionally, I will mention if a Panel should have prominence on the page, but I've found it unnecessary. The rest of the Panel, by far the majority of the description, I dedicate to the mood and the mentality of the character which I wish portrayed. Oddly, most artists who've seen this method have disliked it, yet produced results far more in accord with my vision and artistically stronger than was the case with different approaches to scripting. Usually, the dialogue I write into these scripts is rough, and I rewrite it once the art is available.
 

Richard White

Stealthy Plot Bunny Peddler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
2,993
Reaction score
600
Location
Central Maryland
Website
www.richardcwhite.com
If I'm working with an artist who's new, I usually give a fairly detailed script (to include camera angles, etc.) - I did a lot of film stuff in college so I tend to storyboard out my scripts before I write them.

With an experienced "comic" artist (just because a person can draw doesn't mean they can lay out a comic), I usually give them a page breakdown. I don't just do a plot because there's stuff I usually want to take place at very specific points in the story.

However, with these, I always try to put in a few pages of "X happens over the next two pages . . . have fun". I find the artists I've worked with have always impressed me with what they give back.

Also, I tell my artists, whether I'm working with a full script or a page breakdown, if they have a better, more dramatic way to depict something, go ahead, but give me a heads-up first. Luckily, between Skype and e-mail, I don't get caught by surprise AND I'm very pleased with the final outcomes.

Of course, I work primarily in the independent press. It might be quite different if I worked for one of the "big" comic companies, but then again, I don't see that happening, nor am I really inclined to do that either.
 

AceTachyon

Odd person
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
6,452
Reaction score
972
Location
The Lair, WA
Website
www.abnersenires.com
Just to keep in practice, I write full script style.

But since I'm doing story and art duties, the script sometimes undergoes changes during the page breakdown bit. What I thought initially looked great on paper written out doesn't look that way when I sketch it.

And I notice that I tend to re-do dialogue once I enter the sketch phase. Sometimes, the three lines of dialogue won't fit the panel so I have to whittle it down from three lines to ten words or some such.
 

Atomic Bear

the Bruin of Tomorrow™
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
173
Reaction score
15
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Website
www.atomicbearpress.com
AceTachyon said:
Just to keep in practice, I write full script style.

But since I'm doing story and art duties, the script sometimes undergoes changes during the page breakdown bit. What I thought initially looked great on paper written out doesn't look that way when I sketch it.

And I notice that I tend to re-do dialogue once I enter the sketch phase. Sometimes, the three lines of dialogue won't fit the panel so I have to whittle it down from three lines to ten words or some such.

Wow, that seems familiar. I have drastically changed dialog after the final art was done, to fit new ideas and such that came into the work over the process. I also found that when I wrote a detailed script first I ended up changing it so much that all the time spent could have been used better.

For my latest work on my graphic novel breakdowns I have mostly been just figuring out what information needs to be gotten across and jotting it down on the thumbnails. Then I draw it up larger and import it into inDesign where I roughly past in the words. I know that they will be different by the end so I just need to know how the drawings work and a close approximation of the dialog so I leave enough room for the balloons. (my first comic I had some serious issues with fitting in the word balloons.)

Richard, I think it's cool that you leave room for the artist to add something. I don't know a single artist who would want to draw something so tighly that they could not add their own voice into the mix.
 
Last edited:

AceTachyon

Odd person
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
6,452
Reaction score
972
Location
The Lair, WA
Website
www.abnersenires.com
Atomic Bear said:
For my latest work on my graphic novel breakdowns I have mostly been just figuring out what information needs to be gotten across and jotting it down on the thumbnails.
I hear ya.

That's usually how I start off. But like I said, just to keep in practice, I write full-script. Otherwise, it's a mix of thumbnail layouts and bits of dialogue. Since I have a good idea of what'll happen in a given scene, it's just a matter of figuring out the best layout for the page.
 

Atomic Bear

the Bruin of Tomorrow™
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
173
Reaction score
15
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Website
www.atomicbearpress.com
AceTachyon said:
I hear ya.

That's usually how I start off. But like I said, just to keep in practice, I write full-script. Otherwise, it's a mix of thumbnail layouts and bits of dialogue. Since I have a good idea of what'll happen in a given scene, it's just a matter of figuring out the best layout for the page.

That is one area that it always a challenge to me, to be able to improve the layout to better tell the story. In a written novel you can do quite a bit on one page, but a comic book it has to be pretty selective.
 

Somnilocus

Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
10
Reaction score
2
Website
somnilocus.deviantart.com
Words are easier to edit than drawings are. For me, it usually goes something like this:

i. I see a scene in me noggin.
ii. I scribble a few quick sketches onto paper and/or jot down a few notes in my hideous sketchbook so that I neeeever forget.
iii. I write and storyboard--oooo I'm a multitasker.
iv. I draw.
 

realist from earth

Simply from my point of view...

1. I draw out a very crude story board.
2. I write the script based on the story board.
3. I actually use Illustrator and InDesign to create the pages.
4. I then input the words, sometimes changing dialogue.
 

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
6,344
Reaction score
975
Location
o,0
Since I write and draw, I normally do both together: I rough-sketch the panels I see in my mind and include the dialogue and other notes as I go (no exposition, unless it's absolutely necessary, and even then). If there are a series of panels I don't want to draw, I make a note of what happens in those areas and return to them later.

Editing is usually text only -- notes on drawings, dialogue, colour scheme (if not my usual B&W), etc.

Some days, for me, creating comics isn't all that different to creating picture books (not for the Western markets, though). Although, both occasionally throw up more work than I can comfortably handle. LOL.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.