So am I getting this right?

You're missing an editor somewhere in there. And if the publisher asks for revisions (good chance).
Though, I'm not an expert on publishing.


Starcrossed by Josephine Angelini got a 7 figure deal. I think that was a debut release.

MockingBird said:

Okay, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around this whole publishing system. First, I have to be lucky enough to get an agent. Then I have to get lucky enough for that agent to get publishers interested in my book.

Then when the negotiating is done, I get my advance (Woot) the book is made and put on the shelves.

Then that's where the hardest part comes in. I have to get lucky enough to get sales. So basically there is three threshold to cross to getting a successful published book? Finding the agent, getting a publisher and then finally hoping enough people buy your books.

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I won't say there is no luck involved, but it's not all luck.

First you have to be able to write (well), and that's where most people fail.

As Amadan has said, there's a bit of luck involved: but if you've not written a really good book in the first place, you won't have any luck at all.

I'm going to move this to the Round Table, as it's not really a good fit here in Publishing FAQs.

MockingBird said:

Okay, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around this whole publishing system. First, I have to be lucky enough to get an agent. Then I have to get lucky enough for that agent to get publishers interested in my book.

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Then you have to get lucky enough to have your agent actually get a publisher to accept your book. And before any of this happens, you have to have a book to offer.

And it's not a matter of simple luck, at any point of the process.

caw

Nope.

You have to write an amazing book, research to find out who is going to like it best, cross your fingers and hope you haven't written something which, it has been arbitrarily decided, is out of fashion, celebrate that your agent sold it, get the edits back, wonder why the hell you got paid a whole 4 four figures for this if they hate it so much it looks like they sacrificed a goat on it, make the changes, idly work out your hourly rate and wonder if it qualifies you for having Bob Geldoff do a charity single, realise two years have passed, have a book launch, have it roundly ignored by everybody, begin telling people you're a plumber because you can no longer cope with the "Oh, have I heard of you?" question.

In some respects getting published *is* as hard as a record deal or pro sportsperson, and it shares the same element of Right Place Right Time luck. But, as with those, if you work and learn and carry on trying until you are able to produce something amazing, it's a lot easier. You don't leap off the sofa one day and send Simon Cowel a CD of you singing in the bath and expect to be an international superstar. You don't write something down all the way to the end for the very first time and expect it to be publishable.

Writing is a job. You have to learn how to do it before you can expect to be paid to.

MockingBird, yes. Publishing successfully is just as hard as getting a record deal or a major sports contract. Publishing is one of the most insane business models I have ever experienced - and I've been in the commercial and fine art world for nearly twenty years.

I will counter the doom and gloom with cautious optimism.

The internet has made finding responsible publishers and agents much easier. I'd take you back to 1988 in a time machine, but it would make your head hurt. There are many routes toward publication now for writers, and when I started out there were just two. Find an agent, or find a print publisher.

There was a lot less work published then, and many publishers were willing to take a chance on quirky books or stuff that needed more development. But relying on the post took forever. Paper and postage costs were ridiculous. Being published was never a guarantee of success. If a midlist author slid downward too much in sales, she could find her books with a shelf life of two weeks, no contract renewal, and an agent tactfully saying 'I think you need to change pen names again so they don't suspect it's you.' (I know at least 2 authors who have had to do this in science fiction and fantasy.)

Now, digital sales are growing and gaining a respectability they didn't have a few short years ago. For certain niche markets, digital e-pub can actually offer a living wage to dedicated writers. Digital also offers the 'Long Tail': incremental sales on backlists that would otherwise be orphaned or in stasis.

Self-pub is a viable option if you accept the possibility of very low sales, a hell of a lot of work from you, and the probability that the book will never get noticed by a larger audience.

If you just want some reader love and you are willing to sacrifice money, consider posting throwaway stories on some of the big fan-fiction and display sites. A (very few) commercial successes have come out of those incubators, and they are very satisfying for their participants. I did that for ten years, when my art career took away a lot of my writing time. The short pieces I posted then let me hone my writing skills, be part of a mostly supportive community, and regain confidence in my original fiction.

The key element that unites all these strategies is quality of writing. Most of what is theoretically offered to publishers and agents is dreadful, judging by glimpses of slush piles and query letters. No matter your genre, if you can write in an engaging 'voice' with decent quality, you have increased your chances of getting some professional interest.

There are no guarantees. There are no quick routes, except by unforeseen accidental luck. Don't rely on luck, but be prepared to take advantage of opportunities around you. You have to love writing, and be at least moderately insane. Be picky and skeptical. It can take hundreds of queries and/or some diligent networking to find an agent or publisher that can be an effective partner for your career.

Luck doesn't count for as much as talent, dedication and hard work.

I guess my question is, why would getting published be any easier than getting a record deal? It's no easier to write a book than to record an album.

This is the arts. It's not easy. It is full of rejection, of watching others you don't think are as splendiferous get ahead while you don't, of luck playing a huge factor. There are also different roads to success (though the one you outline is pretty standard). It ain't easy.

The good news is it ain't impossible. If you keep working at it, if you are professional in your approach, if you don't give up, you absolutely can get there.

But as someone with three books out already, let me tell you, unless you do become the next TWILIGT, it stays hard. I have to sell a certain number of books in order to get a sequel for my latest so right now that's all up in the air. And meanwhile I'm watching my publisher push other books like heck, and offer multi book deals and man that hurts. I just got rejected for a write for hire. I also have a book that I wrote back in 2008 which is probably the best thing I've ever written and it still hasn't found a home (with rejections that point out just how brilliant it is). But I just keep going. I have to. And had I not kept going after my 2008 book got rejected, my latest would never have come out. And another book from 2009 just got a book deal last week.

This is a hard and frustrating business. And yet there are more options than before like the poster above me said. And you can do it. But you have to keep at it. It's the only way.

Oh, Toothpaste, I hear you. I have a fantasy mms from 2009 (two contest awards, regretful rejections from agents and editors) that is stalled in revision yet again. If my agent doesn't like it I may just self-publish it eventually. I had to switch genres to get digitally published, and I'm mostly happy that I did.

But the uncertainty never goes away. I'm still writing synopses and query letters so my agent can use them in submissions packages. I worry about sales and promotional opportunities that could likely boost my career - at the cost of destroying my current finances.

It doesn't get easier on this side of being published. It's just a different flavor of insanity.

MockingBird said:

Okay, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around this whole publishing system. First, I have to be lucky enough to get an agent. Not lucky, really, just capable of getting an agent's attention with a query letter for a book they believe they can sell.Then I have to get lucky enough for that agent to get publishers interested in my book. Again - not luck. Your agent will tailor the submission to editors s/he believes will be interested in it. The "luck" comes in when you hope the editor doesn't already have something similar in the pipeline.

Then when the negotiating is done, I get my advance (Woot) the book is made and put on the shelves. You get part of your advance on signing. After that, you'll get another part when the MS is accepted by your editor, and another part when the book hits shelves. If the book comes out in hardcover first, then the usual 1/3 payments will likely be 1/4 payments, with the last one coming to you on publication of the paperback.

Then that's where the hardest part comes in. I have to get lucky enough to get sales. Again... not luck. It's a matter of marketing, publicity and quality. If you get two or more of those in place, you should be in a pretty good place to get sales. So basically there is three threshold to cross to getting a successful published book? Finding the agent, getting a publisher and then finally hoping enough people buy your books.

Is this right?

If that's the case, then getting a book published may be as hard as getting a record deal or contract to going pro in football. This is true of any industry where there are vastly more people hoping for success than the market can bear. There are exponentially more writers than novels published commercially in a given year. But you don't get the millions(Unless you write twilight or harry potter) Actually, there are more than two writers pulling "millions" on a regular basis, and at least two in the last few years who have gotten more than a million for an advance.

And before people keep saying "If you're doing this for the money, maybe you shouldn't do this." I don't care about the money, I just want people involved in my stories. If I got one dollar for every book I sold, that's fine--aslong as a lot of people read it.

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Depending on the kind of publishing, a buck a book may actually be what you get.

Concentrate on what you can influence. Your writing. To whom you send the ms. Your professionalism. Meeting deadlines. Not on those things you can't control.

I think you're right, there's a lot of luck (and timing!) involved in the holy grail of a publishing deal.

But as others have pointed out, before then is a LOT of work and dedication. Writing the very best book you can, edit, revise, rewrite, lather rinse repeat. Then researching and submitting to agents, which involves more time and work, and writing the dreaded query letter and synopsis. And faith and stick-to-it, because most have to accept a good to mind boggling number of rejections before and if finding an agent who will take a chance on your manuscript.

*Many people can not/do not place their first manuscript, and go on to begin the process again with the second*

If an agent has faith in your manuscript, and believes they can sell it, they may ask for revisions. Then they submit to editors. If they find an editor who is willing to take it on, and if the editor can convince the publishing house this manuscript is worth publishing, odds are you will do more revising at this point.

Work + Talent + Luck + Faith + Workworkwork+ Workworkwork = Publishing Contract.

*This is just my opinion of how the equation works, I'm no expert in any area of this.

The luck is more about timing than anything else. You could produce a masterpiece about X, be diligent in your research of agents and publishers, and pinpoint the perfect desk for the manuscript to land on--a day after that publisher signed a contract to buy one too similar to yours. Conversely, you could get it there the day the acquisitions editor in question woke up and said "I really wish we had an X story in the queue."

You can't control that. As Buffysquirrel suggested, we are all far better off concentrating what we CAN control.

The luck is absolutely about timing. In my case the 2009 book that I just got a deal on had everything going for it for its genre. It was precisely what everyone was looking for, and my rejections for it weren't "Just didn't connect". No. They were: "Just acquired a similar project."

Over and over.

It was bad timing. It could have been brilliant timing maybe if I had finished it a couple months earlier, but I was just writing a book I wanted to write, how was I supposed to know it was so on trend that that at the time would be its downfall . <--- dramatic

It's amazing how often "luck" happens to those with talent and a strong work ethic. Agents and editors do not throw every manuscript into a big drum and pull out the lucky winners at random.

If those who get published do so because of good luck, then it follows that those who do not get published fail because of bad luck. Anyone who has ever read a slush pile knows this is nonsense. Ninety-nine percent of everything there just isn't good enough, and luck or timing has nothing to do with it. And many of the well-written novels are so same old, same old that no one wants another one.

Timing matters only to mediocre novels. If you happen to write a mediocre novel about vampires that only suck blood from homeless people, and a vampire novels happens to hit the top of the bestseller list a month or so before your novel starts making the rounds, the novel might sell when it would have otherwise been rejected. This same novel will be rejected if that genre happens to crash a few months before yours starts making the rounds.

Really good novels do not timing. They make their own timing. And while such a novel might get rejected here or there, it will find the right person and get published.

"Bad luck" and "bad timing" almost always means a bad novel. When it doesn't, it means a writer who simply has no clue of how, when, and where to submit a novel, or who has no clue how to write a god query letter. At best, bad timing means your book might be good, but simply not good enough to rise above what's already out there.

Really good, original, well-written novels filled with great story and great characters don't need luck or timing. It's the writers who follow such novels, who are trying to get into a hot genre, but who write novels that simply aren't quite good enough, who need the timing.

Good novels get published. It may take a month, or it may take five years, but good, well-written novels with good story and good character get published, as long as the writer does his part. However long it takes, you use that time to writer other, even better novels.

Once it isn't published, readers either like it or they don't, and this isn't luck, either.

"Good luck" is what happens to those who have talent and work hard. "Bad luck" is what happens to those who lack talent, and don't work hard. And often to those who don't take the time to learn the business side of writing.

Well, aside from the fact that it's less about luck and more about hard work, skill and perseverence, you should probably take that "get my advance" step out. On your first published book, it's rare to get an advance on royalties. Those come after you've proved your books are marketable.

Writing fiction is a hard way to make a living. For every JK Rowling or Stephanie Meyers, there are thousands of us toiling away every day.

If you really want to make a living as a writer, there is good, steady money to be made in non-fiction work. It's not glamorous, and you may be beholden to interests other than your own, but it's a way to pay the bills.

Myrealana said:

Well, aside from the fact that it's less about luck and more about hard work, skill and perseverence, you should probably take that "get my advance" step out. On your first published book, it's rare to get an advance on royalties. Those come after you've proved your books are marketable.

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Hogwash.

MockingBird said:

If that's the case, then getting a book published may be as hard as getting a record deal or contract to going pro in football. But you don't get the millions(Unless you write twilight or harry potter)

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The vast majority of people who get a recording contract or a contract to play pro football don't get the millions either. I've worked with a pro football (2 seasons) bartender, a professional musician (three albums) carpenter and a professional musician (backup on nine albums) network technician.

On a really good year, I've banked hundreds of dollars for my published books. Last year was especially lucrative, almost $4,000, or about three bucks an hour. Over the years, advances and royalties would have bought me a decent used car.

And I'm in the top 1%, as far as I can tell.

Jeff

To clarify, certain publishers may not offer advances on royalties. Many large and reputable medium-sized do. The trade-off is either getting a modest chunk of change split up along a schedule, or getting royalties right off the bat. I know of several AW members who got reasonable advances when signing. I chose a romance e-pub that gave me royalties right away. When my agent and I look for a sf&f publisher for my other work, advances will be a factor.

A famous author once told me, "Publishing is not a meritocracy. Publishing is a casino."

Just keep writing and submitting. Think of it as pulling the lever on a slot machine. You may or may not eventually get a payoff, but it's unrealistic to expect a jackpot.

MockingBird said:

If that's the case, then getting a book published may be as hard as getting a record deal or contract to going pro in football. But you don't get the millions(Unless you write twilight or harry potter)

And before people keep saying "If you're doing this for the money, maybe you shouldn't do this." I don't care about the money, I just want people involved in my stories. If I got one dollar for every book I sold, that's fine--aslong as a lot of people read it.

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as hard, or harder. I mentioned that earlier this week.

You don't always have to have an agent. It depends on the genre you're in and if the publishers accept un-agented submissions - like many small press, digital first publishers. You may not get an advance in that case, but they usually give higher royalty rates to balance that out. Check out the submission guidelines of the publishers who are putting out the books that are most like yours.

But if you're aiming for the big-ass publishers, then yes, an agent is the first thing on your To Do list.

And I agree, that while of course anyone could get a lucky break, and you should grab any such lucky break with both hands, hard work, perseverance, willingness to keep learning and a professional attitude and approach are more likely to bring you success than luck.