Describing POC

Is your story real life or a fantasy world? If you're in, say, modern-day America, describing a character as African-American or Asian-American (or something equivalent, like mentioning a character's Chinese parents or saying she's a self-described ABC) is probably enough of a racial marker, and then you can add other descriptive markers such as height, build, hair style, facial hair, whatever's relevant. Readers probably don't want you to describe every bit of everything anyway.

For what it's worth, I also use "white" or "Caucasian" as a descriptive marker. Partly because it's my way of saying, as the author, that it shouldn't be the default assumption, and partly because my POV character isn't white so she would be more prone to notice it just as much as she'd notice any other race.

If you're in a fantasy world, and you want to map certain peoples in your fantasy to races in our world, it can be harder. Try to describe factually without fetishizing (this goes for real world characters as well!).

Some words to AVOID:

* Do NOT describe Black skin tone by comparing it to food. No chocolate, coffee, caramel, *whatever.*
* Do NOT describe Asian people as having almond-shaped eyes or being "exotic" looking. In fact, do not apply the word "exotic" to a person or culture, ever.

These are tropes that are problematic for a variety of reasons, not least of which because they are so overused by white writers.

In both the real world and (depending on your worldbuilding) in fantasy worlds, race can also inform plot and character throughout the story. Your characters might occasionally mention something about their cultures, face prejudice (either overt or institutional), employ humor regarding their own races/cultures, or any number of other things -- being a POC usually informs people's daily lives in some way, which may help you to reinforce your description.

Eyes for Asians, within the community: People will talk about having a single or a double lid a lot. (There is a surgery to get a double lid.) That'll guard against the epicanthic fold.

If it's happening on Earth, I would put more emphasis on CULTURE than looks. Culture will give the biggest tip offs. Don't focus solely on the physical appearance.

If on another world, I'd still use bits of culture from our world to do little tip offs.

I agree with slhuang. If the story is set in the present day, then simply mentioning the race or ethnicity of the person is probably good enough.

If I were to write my life story, an accurate description of my grandmother might be confusing for some readers. She was a woman who was proud of her African-American heritage, even though she had white skin coloring, blue-gray eyes, and red hair (well, she was gray by the time I came along). I'd just as soon say she was a black woman, unless a description of her features was necessary for explaining certain stories.

slhuang said:

Some words to AVOID:

* Do NOT describe Black skin tone by comparing it to food. No chocolate, coffee, caramel, *whatever.*
* Do NOT describe Asian people as having almond-shaped eyes or being "exotic" looking. In fact, do not apply the word "exotic" to a person or culture, ever.

.

Click to expand...

Oh Lord that sucks for me. Well in one book I wrote set in the future no one calls each other "white" or "black" or any of the common terms we use today . . . I have one character who is technically black mixed with Hispanic IF we were to label it that way, and not only do I say she has chocolate skin, I also say she has almond-shaped eyes, but she isn't Asian, so maybe that is ok haha.

I do have other characters who are racially mixed with Asian, but again, in this future they don't use the same labels as today, so I mostly say "light brown" skin for most people, if I mention it at all, and oh I just remembered I have one character with red hair and "caramel" skin. Poop. But really I didn't know what else to do. So for the sequel I'll just have to keep that in mind I guess!

Kim Fierce said:

Oh Lord that sucks for me. Well in one book I wrote set in the future no one calls each other "white" or "black" or any of the common terms we use today . . . I have one character who is technically black mixed with Hispanic IF we were to label it that way, and not only do I say she has chocolate skin, I also say she has almond-shaped eyes, but she isn't Asian, so maybe that is ok haha.

I do have other characters who are racially mixed with Asian, but again, in this future they don't use the same labels as today, so I mostly say "light brown" skin for most people, if I mention it at all, and oh I just remembered I have one character with red hair and "caramel" skin. Poop. But really I didn't know what else to do. So for the sequel I'll just have to keep that in mind I guess!

Click to expand...

It's the idea that one can "eat" a minority group. You'll see this intersect with women in particular. (thus leading to a dominant mind set) Even within minority groups the derogatory terms used towards people are often food too. (Twinkie, coconut, oreo)

with the epicanthic eye fold you pretty much can say "single lid."

Anyway, describing people as food, in general, is kinda creepy... 'cause isn't that symbolic cannibalism?

I never really thought of it as a true food . . . just as another type of color description, and probably just because I have read these descriptions other places. At least not in the chocolate or caramel, which I have also seen as describing things like clothing colors. But obviously oreo is one I recognize as derogatory.

I was trying to figure out ways to describe the multiple skin colors on a scale of darker to lighter without always just saying dark brown or light brown, and avoiding the words black and white altogether in this particular story. I also use pale and tan as descriptive words, but "tan" can be used to describe a white person who tanned in the sun, and that isn't really what I was trying to depict. Definitely some stuff to consider!

Book One was told from the POV of someone who had knowledge withheld from her. Book Two will be a mixture of her POV and someone else who was born into the Gay Community, and therefore actually knows more about certain things than my other MC, so some descriptive words and phrases will likely change when it comes to the new POV. I still don't think I will use certain labels and phrases from today's world though.

Kim Fierce said:

Oh Lord that sucks for me. Well in one book I wrote set in the future no one calls each other "white" or "black" or any of the common terms we use today . . . I have one character who is technically black mixed with Hispanic IF we were to label it that way, and not only do I say she has chocolate skin, I also say she has almond-shaped eyes, but she isn't Asian, so maybe that is ok haha.

I do have other characters who are racially mixed with Asian, but again, in this future they don't use the same labels as today, so I mostly say "light brown" skin for most people, if I mention it at all, and oh I just remembered I have one character with red hair and "caramel" skin. Poop. But really I didn't know what else to do. So for the sequel I'll just have to keep that in mind I guess!

Click to expand...

Aww, Kim, don't beat yourself up too much.

What's awesome is that you're hanging out here with us and learning this stuff! It's all a learning process. I'm sure I've got some accidentally offensive stuff in my current WIP -- just because it's hard to catch our own internalized bias about everything -- but knowing that isn't going to stop me from writing diversity, right? We try and we learn and we fail better the next time.

Plus, I have no trouble believing that you'd seen other writers doing those sorts of descriptions a LOT because it's very common for white writers to do it. But unfortunately it's not only cliched, but it comes off as dehumanizing. I think for most people it would feel weird to see White skin tone regularly described as being "skin the color of mashed potatoes" or "skin the color of eggnog." I mean, mashed potatoes and eggnog are tasty things, but we (societal "we") don't think of White skin that way -- we think of it as skin-colored, and comparing it to food feels flattening and a bit sickly, because we as people don't want to *be* mashed potatoes or eggnog.

And I can't say I've ever in RL looked at a Black friend and compared the skin tone in my head to a food anyway -- in fact, doing it in my head about people I know in real life feels a little icky, like Rachel said. I mean, even try thinking about it with celebrities or something; doesn't it feel a little weird?

I think it's also one of those things that wouldn't be so bad if it weren't that every white writer ever decided it was a good way to describe POC. You know, like the gay character dying -- it wouldn't bother us in *one story* if that were the only story where that happened, but because it happens every time, it gets frustrating.

Anyway, now you know.

slhuang said:

Aww, Kim, don't beat yourself up too much.

What's awesome is that you're hanging out here with us and learning this stuff! It's all a learning process. I'm sure I've got some accidentally offensive stuff in my current WIP -- just because it's hard to catch our own internalized bias about everything -- but knowing that isn't going to stop me from writing diversity, right? We try and we learn and we fail better the next time.

Plus, I have no trouble believing that you'd seen other writers doing those sorts of descriptions a LOT because it's very common for white writers to do it. But unfortunately it's not only cliched, but it comes off as dehumanizing. I think for most people it would feel weird to see White skin tone regularly described as being "skin the color of mashed potatoes" or "skin the color of eggnog." I mean, mashed potatoes and eggnog are tasty things, but we (societal "we") don't think of White skin that way -- we think of it as skin-colored, and comparing it to food feels flattening and a bit sickly, because we as people don't want to *be* mashed potatoes or eggnog.

And I can't say I've ever in RL looked at a Black friend and compared the skin tone in my head to a food anyway -- in fact, doing it in my head about people I know in real life feels a little icky, like Rachel said. I mean, even try thinking about it with celebrities or something; doesn't it feel a little weird?

I think it's also one of those things that wouldn't be so bad if it weren't that every white writer ever decided it was a good way to describe POC. You know, like the gay character dying -- it wouldn't bother us in *one story* if that were the only story where that happened, but because it happens every time, it gets frustrating.

Anyway, now you know.

Click to expand...

Agree. It's really hard to escape that dominant voice when it's pushed on you everywhere. I think as long as people are willing to learn after they fail and find out why (asking appropriately) there is only win. ^_^

I failed a whooooolllleee bunch. But I learned a whole bunch too and am willing to do better next time--which I've seen you also want to do.

Gem stones and metals aren't too bad, as long as you don't go "ranking" system with them such as with the race fail on Foyt.

Thanks! Yeah I was thinking earlier, I think maybe in classics I've seen white skin described as milky but that might be the only white food description I can think of!

And technically milky white skin would be very rare . . . it would be possibly more common to have a white person with skin the color of a ham? hahahahahah ewww


Learning!

I rarely describe any of my characters' skintones specifically. However, I have several characters that are POC and with two of them I need description. What would be appropriate terms to use? As I understand it doesn't sound well or is very appropriate with the 'food' analogies, correct? What would be some great alternatives to describe color? One guy has light "caramel" coloring and his mother has warm, brown skin, a couple shades darker. Coppery, tanned, olive skinned, ebony--none of those are accurate. Not chestnut, brandy, or walnut either (and again with the foods anyway). Just saying light brown or medium brown doesn't seem descriptive enough.

Coppery, tanned, olive skinned, ebony--none of those are accurate. Not chestnut, brandy, or walnut either (and again with the foods anyway).

Click to expand...

Yeah, don't use any of those. With the exception of "olive," which is an actual skin tone rather than carrying the literal denotation of "skin the color of an olive," these would all make me wince. And "tanned" sounds weird to me because it sounds like something active happened to "tan" the person's skin, rather than it being that color naturally -- if someone says "tanned," I think, "tanned by the sun."

Part of the problem is that none of these (again with the exception of "olive") are skin tones, so they don't work very well to describe an actual human being. Skin is generally skin-colored (no matter what color it is . . . if that makes sense!). See my note upthread about comparing white people to eggnog, or Kim's about comparing white people to ham -- it feels weird, doesn't it?

Just saying light brown or medium brown doesn't seem descriptive enough.

Click to expand...

Well, what kinds of words do you use to describe your white characters?

I'm not being flippant (or at least I'm not trying to be). How descriptive are you trying to get here? How finely do you separate the skin tones of your white characters? If the furthest you go in differentiating them is calling someone "very pale" or something like that, then you shouldn't need anything more descriptive than "very dark" to differentiate your characters with more melanin. If you get crazy with all your characters' skin tones, on the other hand, give us some examples of the descriptors you use and maybe we can help you brainstorm equivalent ones for your POC that aren't offensive. To me it really does depend on your prose, and I like it to be consistent across the board -- for example, if you're going super poetic and you describe your white characters with comparisons like, "skin the delicate pink of the inside of a conch shell," it wouldn't sound so weird (to me) to describe another character as having "skin the rich deep color of the forest loam" (or something). But if you do that with all your POC and your white characters are just sort of . . . there, it DOES feel weird -- at least to me.

Rachel Udin said:

Anyway, describing people as food, in general, is kinda creepy... 'cause isn't that symbolic cannibalism?

Click to expand...

No more than calling one's daughter 'pumpkin' or 'cupcake' is, imo.

slhuang said:

I think it's also one of those things that wouldn't be so bad if it weren't that every white writer ever decided it was a good way to describe POC. You know, like the gay character dying -- it wouldn't bother us in *one story* if that were the only story where that happened, but because it happens every time, it gets frustrating.

Click to expand...

This is the problem I see with it.

My personal solution is to not describe anyone's skin colour, unless it is story relevant.

I sort of made the same mistake with my first novel although no one ever called me on it. I described one of the minor characters who's in charge of the conning tower as having a "handsome, coffee-colored complexion" because I didn't know (at that time) how to do something other than say he was black.

Looking back on it, it came across as being inoffensive (and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone) although now I realize it might have pissed someone off somewhere along the way.

It is a mistake I won't repeat again.

(Hangs head sheepishly and apologizes to any ovine characters out there).

Well, white people are also described in terms of food: "cream", "milky white"...

I get the whole food-word as troubling symbolism but it seems natural to me that we describe skin tones in terms of food. The fact is that we name colours after food because that's where we originally got our pigments from. "Chocolate" is not just a food, it's a colour, just like "orange". So yeah, I struggle with thinking of it as a bad thing. I'm olive-skinned myself, that's a food-word even if it is an "official" skin type term.

"Named for its green and gold undertones (the color of an olive), it refers to an earthy skin tone which can be warm, neutral, cool, or anything in between. " - Wikipedia

I just fear that people are focusing on that aspect of things and losing sight of more serious, issues with the depiction of PoC in literature.

Thump said:

I just fear that people are focusing on that aspect of things and losing sight of more serious, issues with the depiction of PoC in literature.

Click to expand...

Um . . . trust me, we're not.

I'm not a mod, but as a member of the board I'm asking you to please not say stuff like this. Devaluing people's concerns because "there are worse problems in the world" is a silencing technique often used to shut down discussions on race. Please don't do it.

We're perfectly capable of discussing small, nuanced issues regarding microaggressions while still being perfectly aware of the bigger picture. This thread happens to be about describing POC, not about what we think is the WORST PROBLEM IN DEPICTIONS OF POC EVER -- and we don't always have to talk about the worst problems ever; our conversations don't become illegitimate just because there are bigger problems out there.

I don't mind disagreement, but please don't be dismissive.

I tried to stay away from food or other exoticizing descriptions in the fantasy world I built, as well, and it wasn't too hard. It's a good way to make you stretch for descriptions instead of going with the most obvious one, too.

Some descriptions I used:
"the way her nose pinched between her eyes, then flared wide"; "skin was the near-black of soaked wood"
"shallow eyes"; "tan skin"
"Most were [race] workers, sun-freckled, flat-faced, broad-shouldered"
"yellow-brown skin"; "frizzed hair and crooked nose"
"sandy skin"; "the standard beige of her palms"
"in this dark, her skin—though dark for an [race] like her—practically glowed"
"pink-skinned and pale-eyed, with hair like fire"
"tall and unapologetic and dark"
"his normal even brown"

I tried to avoid harping on about skin skin skin (not that you'd notice from that list!), but at the same time, I wanted to make sure readers had a good idea of what the people in this world looked like--partially for world-building purposes, partially so that there is no way readers will default to white. I mean... except for the actual white characters in this world... there it's okay. I suppose.

The more you think about this, the more you notice it in other books, as well. I cringe at every food-related description of skin I encounter. Same with almond eyes. Which always makes me think of this, anyway: http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html

I can't remember who said this or where I read this (I thought maybe Nisi Shawl?) but there's an extra dimension of iffiness to describing black people as having coffee or chocolate-colored skin, given how many black people worked on coffee plantations, etc., as slaves.

A lot of skin color descriptions, I tend to tilt by either mentioning the region the person is from, or using environment/history to back it up. It gives a bit more of a subtle hand. I also tilt with other factors as well.

I like comparisons also, as long as the comparisons aren't to negative objects. So for example, you could say X's skin was darker than mine now that he'd gotten tanned, but it wasn't like that before. (indicating it's not usually that way).

I also like saying for the culture group s/he had darker or lighter skin than X person.

Skin color varies within groups.

Otherwise, simplicity is the best. I use other factors to boost it up.

NK Jemisin also pointed a lot about skin color and took excerpts on it, mostly for black folks though.

JimmyB27 said:

No more than calling one's daughter 'pumpkin' or 'cupcake' is, imo.


This is the problem I see with it.

My personal solution is to not describe anyone's skin colour, unless it is story relevant.

Click to expand...

Because you call your boy a pumpkin... right? And cupcake too. Notice what it is attached to--daughter. Ummm... intersecting issue much? English tends to use food labels in order to tell a group they are less than. When are you going to call your daughter "Sport?" unless she is a "good sport"??

"Fruity", for example is a derogatory term for homosexuality. Again, food.

"Nutty" is used for the mentally impaired. Again, food.

BTW, Cream and Milky have also fell from favor since the 19th century novels. In term of food, though, cream also has other implications "Cream of the crop" for example. Since "cream" happens to coincide with such literature in frequency, notice the date of "cream of the crop" also coincides.

Kinda transparent, if you look at other groups as well.

Corinne Duyvis said:

Which always makes me think of this, anyway: http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html

Click to expand...

Ooh, I'm so tempted now to describe a white character as having "almond-shaped eyes."

My WIP is a Fantasy with various cultures, and it's made me so hyper-aware of what I'm writing it's become a sort of psychoanalysis. For example, I noted an early reluctance to describe very dark skin (I'm imagining "black" but I'm writing "brown"), and had to overcome my discomfort. I ultimately described her skin as being "as black as leather" (the leather made in her region of the world), which ties together economics and geography, and since she's a no-nonsense ship captain, also becomes a metaphor for her personality.

She only gets one scene in this book, but if I'm ever able to write the sequel -- which takes place in her part of the world -- I may need to charge myself consulting fees for all the therapy.

Rachel Udin said:

Because you call your boy a pumpkin... right? And cupcake too. Notice what it is attached to--daughter. Ummm... intersecting issue much? English tends to use food labels in order to tell a group they are less than. When are you going to call your daughter "Sport?" unless she is a "good sport"??

"Fruity", for example is a derogatory term for homosexuality. Again, food.

"Nutty" is used for the mentally impaired. Again, food.
.

Click to expand...

Very interesting!

I think last name is usually a good distinction for someone's race, at least for Asians. Like if someone has the last name Nguyen I will usually assume a Vietnamese person and Chen is Chinese, etc.

I don't think there is ever any reason to mention someone's skin color, especially if the person is already known to the narrator. When you see your friend would you think of them as "the black girl"? The only exception I guess is if your narrator is pointing them out to someone and having to distinguish them everybody else, but that would happen rarely.

In journalism courses we were taught that you only mention a person's skin color if it is relevant to the story.

However, in fiction you want to portray your character accurately to the reader, that is who you are describing the person for. To say you should never describe skin color is like saying you should never describe eye or hair color. Many people assume that if you don't mention a color at all, then the character is white. And if you want the reader to know that there is a diverse cast of characters, I think it is perfectly fine to mention it, even if only one time. After that it would be redundant to keep describing a character as "the white girl" or "the black guy" throughout the whole story. But I do like my readers to know who they are reading about.

Kim Fierce said:

To say you should never describe skin color is like saying you should never describe eye or hair color.

Click to expand...

Yup, exactly like that. Which is why I don't.

Many people assume that if you don't mention a color at all, then the character is white.

Click to expand...

That's their hang up, not mine.

judes said:

I think last name is usually a good distinction for someone's race,

Click to expand...

Names can help, but my first thought when I see something like this is:

Paging Mr. Smith...

There are some names that know no racial boundary.

JimmyB27 said:

That's their hang up, not mine.

Click to expand...

Dismissive, much? It's not a hang-up. It's a verified cultural phenomenon.