Serious advice: Shut up about your submissions

Status
Not open for further replies.

djf881

AW Addict
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
705
Reaction score
144
Location
New York
People have probably asked you what made you want to write a book, and I am sure you have some pre-packaged answer for the question. Don't try to use that line with me, though. You and I both know the truth: you have no social skills and you're desperately lonely, so you spend a lot of your free time locked in a room by yourself, making up stories about your imaginary friends.

But writing a novel is still an accomplishment, like constructing a 1/18 scale model of the Notre Dame cathedral entirely out of earwax, or carving a perfect kouros statue from a block of granite using only the erosion caused by your endless flow of tears. So, when you send your novel out into the world to try to earn the legitimacy and validation you crave, you don't want to be tripping over the same set of social inadequacies that caused you to start writing in the first place. Publishing, for some sick reason, requires you to deal with people. This is terrifying.

To help you out, I am providing some advice about how to behave while querying or on submission. And my advice is: hunker down. And shut up. Shut up. SHUT UP.

You probably think I'm being mean, or that I am joking. I'm not.

1. Want to follow-up? Maybe you should SHUT UP.

You're trying to trick people into liking you. Annoying them is counterproductive to this goal. And you don't want to send written communication to anyone who is evaluating your writing without editing it very carefully.

Following up on a query is probably a harmless mistake, since an agent's failure to respond to your query probably means she's rejected you. However, following up with someone who has requested a partial or a full manuscript can be dangerous. After sending a manuscript and verifying its receipt, you should not attempt to contact the agent again until she has had your manuscript for more than two months.

The best way to follow up with an agent who is holding your full manuscript is to inform them of another offer of representation, so if you need to vent your query-process neuroses, do it by sending out more queries instead of bothering people you've queried previously.

2. The Internet is a great place for SHUTTING THE F' UP.

Let's imagine that an agent is reading your query. She gets 150 queries per week, and requests zero to 2 manuscripts out of that pile. Yours might be one of five or six queries she's considering requesting, but she only has time to look at one manuscript.

She Googles you, and finds your blog. The first six posts are about all the rejections you've been getting. Do you think she is going to assume that her colleagues are wrong? Or is she going to defer to the conventional wisdom which you have been kind enough to share with the world?

I'm asking rhetorical questions right now, because I assume speaking to you in your native tongue will make you feel more at ease. I think we know both the answers.


The first rule of rejection is: do not talk about rejection. In fact, while you're querying and submitting, maybe you should just delete your blog and your Twitter feed. Your manuscript is your best work, we must assume. You might not want your non-best work out there in the world where people can find it.

The more an agent learns about you, the less likely she is to represent you. Because we both know you're just awful. Try to de-emphasize that aspect of yourself while you're querying.

3. Once you have an agent, it's time to SHUT UP EVEN HARDER.

Your agent's job is to make you seem marketable and appealing to editors. The only way for her to do this is to lie to them. You do not want your agent to get caught in a lie. So, don't put stuff on the Internet that will make your agent look stupid for saying nice things about you.

Specifically: don't tell anyone when you go on submission. Don't post it on Facebook. Don't talk about it on writers' forums. Don't Tweet about it. If you have to have a second wave of submissions, you don't want those editors to find out that they're part of a second wave. Your agent is lying to all of them, telling each one that they're the first editor she thought of when she read your manuscript. Don't let editors find out otherwise!

You certainly don't want editors considering your book to read a comprehensive, dated log of your rejection history, complete with the reasons other editors passed. So maybe it's not a good idea to post a thing like that on the freakin' Internet.

Honestly, even the celebration post you put on your blog when you signed with an agent can let an editor know that your book has been out there circulating for a while. If you've noticed the tendency of the publishing industry to follow "trends" like mash-ups or dystopian YA, then you know publishing houses have a pack mentality when it comes to acquisitions. If editors think everyone else is passing on your book, it makes their decision very easy.

Your agent is lying as hard as she can to convince these editors that they're up against a ticking clock to buy your book before a rival snatches you off the table. Don't ruin that effort by publicly revealing everyone's thundering indifference to your submission.

In summary, good luck, happy hunting and STFU.
 

Maryn

At Sea
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,679
Reaction score
25,853
Wow, just... wow.

Maryn, not amused--was she supposed to be?
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,934
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
I wonder if one should also shut up, rather than posting a long rather hostile post about shutting up?

There may be some good advice under all that but... wow. It comes across to me as hostile.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

Vampire Junkie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
4,470
Reaction score
658
What they said. I can't quite detect the irony level in this post, or even figure out whether there is one.
 

ladyleeona

fluently sarcastic grandma offender
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
932
Reaction score
138
Location
wherever the Jose is.
I'll agree with most of the advice (demands?) here, but the delivery is a bit...uh, aggressive? (Especially for it being given without provocation?)
 

Maryn

At Sea
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,679
Reaction score
25,853
I posit that Mr. Tinman has his undies in a knot about goings-on elsewhere. Just a shrewd guess, but I bet I'm right.

Maryn, who has a gift for such things
 

JoBird

Banned
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
1,688
Reaction score
334
It seemed like good advice to me. I mean, it presumes that writers are ill equipped to handle social niceties, but I waved that off as self-deprecating humor on the author's part.

Anyway, it does touch on a topic I've been very curious about. An internet presence can reveal a lot about a person. How dangerous can those revelations be to successfully publishing your work?

For instance, is it bad to take a strong stand politically when you're just trying to get your foot in the publishing door? Doing so seems like it might discourage a lot of your potential readers. I remember watching an episode of Story Board (Rothfuss' hangout on Geek and Sundry's youtube channel) where Wil Wheaton was one of the guests. Wheaton mentioned that he would never read anything by Orson Scott Card because of Card's political position.

Ever since then I've been giving this matter a lot of thought. How much can your internet presence be a detriment to your overall goal of getting published? Or, for that matter, continuing to publish.

So much of what a writer has to do seems to revolve around PR. I guess a part of me really wants to engage in a dialogue about what that means, and how a writer can best position him/herself toward that end.
 

Papaya

Unfold your own myth. - Rumi
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
688
Reaction score
113
Location
Northern California
Wow, just... wow.

Maryn, not amused--was she supposed to be?
I second this.

To the OP: Why do you hate writers so much? Are you a writer, an agent, or a random person with ridiculous ideas of what it is to be a writer? If it is one of the first two options, it sounds like you are in the wrong profession. And I can tell you right now, you are dead wrong about the reasons I write. Even if every writer were as socially inept and despised as you posit, it would be much easier to be a drug addict or an alcoholic or a gaming addict etc. You might have some good advice buried under all your insults, but it doesn't matter as you lost your audience in the first paragraph.
 

ladyleeona

fluently sarcastic grandma offender
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
932
Reaction score
138
Location
wherever the Jose is.
I posit that Mr. Tinman has his undies in a knot about goings-on elsewhere. Just a shrewd guess, but I bet I'm right.

Maryn, who has a gift for such things

I very muchly agree, given this: http://danieljfriedman.blogspot.com/2011/06/serious-query-advice-stfu.html

ETA--after reading your blog, I see your particular type of humor and believe the OP falls well in line with it. But I also get why people are going "WTF?", too: there's no context for it unless they scope your blog.
 
Last edited:

Gravity

Seen 'em come, seen 'em go
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
3,942
Reaction score
965
Age
71
Location
Once you've heard the truth, everything else is ju
Agreed. There are some good points made, but they're drowning in all the vinegar.

To put such a phrase as "you have no social skills and you're desperately lonely, so you spend a lot of your free time locked in a room by yourself, making up stories about your imaginary friends" in the first graf seems ... overly harsh.

Anyway, it's none of my beeswax.

Or earwax, as it were.
 

Spell-it-out

I'm gonna give all my secrets away
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
1,028
Reaction score
86
Location
Ireland
I hope your agent doesn't see this :D
 

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
20,322
Reaction score
3,513
Location
Transcending Canines
It seemed like good advice to me. I mean, it presumes that writers are ill equipped to handle social niceties, but I waved that off as self-deprecating humor on the author's part.
Humor? Don't we have a subforum for that?
Anyway, it does touch on a topic I've been very curious about. An internet presence can reveal a lot about a person. How dangerous can those revelations be to successfully publishing your work?
I'd suggest starting a new thread. And I recall reading several already-existing threads regarding what a "writer's web presence" should be and look like and what a prospective agent would look for, perhaps in Ask An Agent.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,934
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
My attitude is that of I post something online, I own it. Every author has to decide just how far they will go and what they will disclose.
 

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
9,316
Reaction score
1,064
Age
72
Location
Out side the beltway...
I suppose that posting in a place like AW and in which the member has his/her book as their avatar, and identifies the writer, is far different than posting on Facebook, Twitter or even our own blogs...

Of course, we all know AW members are special Snow Flakes, right? I mean, why else would Daniel give us such precious information with tone...

Of course, tone is subjective, as are Snow Flakes...
 

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
Anyway, it does touch on a topic I've been very curious about. An internet presence can reveal a lot about a person. How dangerous can those revelations be to successfully publishing your work?

For instance, is it bad to take a strong stand politically when you're just trying to get your foot in the publishing door? Doing so seems like it might discourage a lot of your potential readers. I remember watching an episode of Story Board (Rothfuss' hangout on Geek and Sundry's youtube channel) where Wil Wheaton was one of the guests. Wheaton mentioned that he would never read anything by Orson Scott Card because of Card's political position.

.


a lot depends on the depth of your conviction and its relative social palatability.

Card didn't get that flack for saying he believed in gun control, or school prayer....he got it for saying homosexuality was an affront to God and it was his duty to do all he could to prevent gay unions from destroying the country, or some similar ball of shit (I won't read the dickbag either after that.....he's entitled to his opinion, but if he intends to use my dollars to contribute to an agenda I find loathesome, I have no obligation to fund his douchery either). He very vocally placed himself on the fringe of a spectrum many people see as morally repugnant (fwiw I doubt many Evangelicals are buying Ellen DeGeneres' books either..if she wrote any?) and it happens.

If you are a Holocaust denier, it is probably best not to put that out there. If you believe Scott Walker helped Wisconsin balance its budget (I think he's a turd in a suit, don't get me wrong, and nothing would make me happier than the guy having a run-in with candiru or having to use his legal defense fund to avoid a lengthy prison sentence) or that we should maintain separation of church and state, I doubt your opinions are gonna sink you.
 

The Lady

Critical Member
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
998
Reaction score
1,236
Location
Ireland
Website
theladywolf.livejournal.com
. How much can your internet presence be a detriment to your overall goal of getting published? Or, for that matter, continuing to publish.

QUOTE]

In my early days on the Internet I once found the blog of the author of my most favourite book EVER. Great was my joy.

She-was-the-most-boring-twit-on-a-blog, I have ever endured. I began to wonder was she losing her mind. I googled her name to see was she well. She withering obsessively on and on and on and on about her two favourite topics. I mean, withered. Every day. Chronicles.

After two weeks I took her off my blog feed list. I had ordered one of her other books from Amazon because finding her blog made me remember to check out her back catalogue. I could barely read the book I had such a bad impression of her. I finally made it through the book and just thought it was, "meh." I'm still not sure if I would have thought that if I hadn't grown to dislike her so much from reading her blog. I will never be able to read any of her other books again.

I really, really, really, wish I had never found her blog, or that she had never written one. I still love that book but I think of it as something seperate from her now. I cannot put crazy lady from the blog together with that beautiful book.

I have only ever bought two books because I knew their authors from blogs and thought they were decent people and I might give their books a go.

I enjoyed one book. I did not particularly enjoy the other.I know there are many people whose blogs annoy me. I would not seek their books out. And in the meantime I continue to find books in the usual way, browsing bookshops, friend reccomendations, Amazon recs, Goodread friend lists, even book reviews.

So I am just not sure of the value of blogs as a book flogging tool. It seems to be a chicken and egg type situation, more that people like your book and find your blog, where you might then put them off future books, rather than people finding your amazing blog and buying all your books.
 

JoBird

Banned
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
1,688
Reaction score
334
Humor? Don't we have a subforum for that?

Well, in fairness, a lot of posts in a lot of forums express humor to get across, or initiate, the point of the post. And whereas I felt this piece started with humor, I don't in any way feel it's sole purpose for existing is based on getting laughs.

I accept that a lot of people didn't find the OP's opening very funny. My point is, I, personally, didn't find it offensive to my own sensibilities.

I'd suggest starting a new thread. And I recall reading several already-existing threads regarding what a "writer's web presence" should be and look like and what a prospective agent would look for, perhaps in Ask An Agent.

I'm sure it's been discussed. In fact, I feel like the OP started this thread with that very topic in mind. As such, I chose to comment on it.

I suppose the suggestion here is that this is not the thread to have that discussion in though.
 

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
I second this.

To the OP: Why do you hate writers so much? Are you a writer, an agent, or a random person with ridiculous ideas of what it is to be a writer? If it is one of the first two options, it sounds like you are in the wrong profession.


while I agree the OP came across more than a bit bombastic, and probably didn't affect most folks the way the OP intended (been there, done that) I also sincerely doubt he hates writers as a group. In fact, I suspect I can think of the exact sort of folks he was referring to, it is a relatively small subset of writers, and I share most of his sentiments about that particular group.
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
Can't have it both ways. If authors are expected to have an internet presence, they can't possibly have one that won't piss some people off. Even one so bland that it can't possibly piss people off will piss some people off by its very blandness.
 

heza

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
4,328
Reaction score
829
Location
Oklahoma
I must be in a twisted mood today because I thought it was hilarious. This is up my alley though, and I can separate the informative bits from the sarcasm pretty quickly.

I also followed the link ladyleeona posted, and I found some super hilarious stuff on there... I guess it's a certain kind of very irreverent humor, and (obviously) not everyone finds it appealing.


I'm still chuckling about the fart post...
 

Katana

On the edge...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
344
Reaction score
61
Location
Calgary, Canada
People have probably asked you what made you want to write a book, and I am sure you have some pre-packaged answer for the question. Don't try to use that line with me, though. You and I both know the truth: you have no social skills and you're desperately lonely, so you spend a lot of your free time locked in a room by yourself, making up stories about your imaginary friends.

OMG! You've been spying on me! I'm calling the police. :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.