up to $400 to sentence structure check my 50,000 word novel(ette)

cly3d · Feb 4, 2013

Dear all,
I could not find an appropriate section to post this, and as I understand, this part of the forum is for paying jobs for writers. Can the forum also be used for hiring an editor?

I would like to know if a fee of up to $400 is acceptable to do the following:
1) Punctuation and comma check my manuscript.
2) Sentence structure check.
3) Check for dangling modifiers and tense mismatch.

I'm not looking at developmental or critique editing. Is there someone who is game? Yes I would appreciate credentials of work done, or links to amazon "Read inside" of the books you've edited, so that I can evaluate.

My novel(ette) is approx 50,000 words and 5 out of the 8 chapters are online at: Authonomy. http://authonomy.com/books/50498/memories-with-maya/
Just so that you know what to expect in terms of the language/grammar.

Why don't I hire a proper editing company that charges close to $800 - 1000? Because frankly, I've been reading the threads here and find that at least a couple of the companies mentioned don't have flawless performance when drilling down to the actual titles they've edited.

Meanwhile I see the talent of those contributors who have been helping people for free and I'd feel more comfortable if someone of that caliber cares to take up a paid project.

I can send up to 75% payment in advance by paypal if i'm convinced and the member is a trustworthy contributor to this site.

Mods: if this is an inappropriate post, please delete or move to the correct section.

Kind Regards.

regdog · Feb 4, 2013

I have copied this post from Paying Markets to ask the Editor since the OP is both asking about the pay rate in addition to looking to hire an editor.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 4, 2013

Normally I'd say that's very, very little pay for what you ask, but it you case, it may be fair. Why not just do it yourself? It isn't rocket science, and any writer who wants to do so can sit down and learn punctuation very fast. I read your first chapter, and the only punctuation problems I saw were minor.

wampuscat · Feb 4, 2013

I'm not a novel copy editor, but these are the Editorial Freelancer's Association rates, just for reference. http://www.the-efa.org/res/rates.ph

Hope you find what you're looking for!

Old Hack · Feb 5, 2013

cly3d said:
I'm not looking at developmental or critique editing.

I've read a few pages of the book you linked to at Authonomy.

I strongly advise you to consider revising and perhaps workshopping this book before you pay anyone to edit it. If you're hoping to pay someone to help you improve it, "developmental [and] critique editing" is exactly what it needs.

A few good beta readers would probably do the job just as well and save you a good bit of money along the way.

You could spend your $400 on someone who could help you with your punctuation (that includes comma usage, by the way), your sentence structure, and your grammar, but until you improve your writing, paying for such checks is going to be money wasted, I'm afraid.

I'm sorry to be so blunt. But I'd hate to see you waste your money and end up with an unpublishable book.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Thanks Oldhack for the honest review.
I realize the writing so far is also riddled with cliches, most sentences begin the same way, and these are only some of the missing things even I could spot. The book is aimed at a technically inclined audience and so the hard science is going to anyway overwhelm the story/ character arc.
However this is not an excuse, and I will work as far as I can on improving the literary aspects of the writing.

Part of the reason for paying at this stage is so that I can learn the mechanics as well.
I'd be grateful for a few pointers on what you think are the areas that need priority addressing.
All opinions can only be a good thing in the long term for me.

Kind regards

Jamesaritchie · Feb 6, 2013

I read the first chapter, and I have no problem at all with the writing.

wampuscat · Feb 6, 2013

Once you've acquired 50 posts, you can post a bit on the Show Your Work boards and ask for honest opinions. I'd bet that the crits you get would apply to the rest of the novel. You can also learn a ton by critting other people's work there. (I have, anyway.)

Good luck!

Maryn · Feb 6, 2013

When and if you do post the work for critique, be sure to ask people making corrections why the correction is needed. This can help you identify what grammar and writing mechanics issues you have, so you know what to study.

Maryn, grammary at times

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Thanks wampuscat and Maryn.
I'll try to rack up 50 posts (with meaningful comments) and then post some of the WIP.

I'm learning a lot from the forum.
Kind Regards.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

I just thought I'd let those interested know, that I've also been working on a website that will be updated on the Hard Science and some insights into the book itself.

The first 5 chapters of the Book (in it's 2nd revision form) are online there as well.
It's WIP, so scene breaks, and cliche steamrolling are still ongoing.
http://www.memorieswithmaya.com

It's a challenge for me to get that level of hard sci-fi into a story, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Some insights into the book:

1) I did not want to go over 50,000 words. As the book is targeted at today's fickle attention span demographic
2) the science, unfortunately at the cost of info dumping, will have to take priority over character arc
3) It may be a trilogy, in which case the 2Dimensional character (Maya) gets developed. There is a good reason for this, and it's revealed in chapter 7 ( 5 chapters are online, out of a total chapter count of 8)

4)... Wish me luck, without telling me how much I really need it ;-)

Critique and insights welcome!

wampuscat · Feb 6, 2013

Just curious. What's your eventual intent with this? If it's just to write and put on your own site, cool. Go for it. If it's to self-publish to a niche market, you're probably fine. If you want to go a more traditional route and try to get an agent or a publisher, you might need to do some research. First, I don't know if there's a threshold, but at some point, your work might be considered published since it's online, which could make it difficult to sell. Second, a word count of 50K is more a novella than novel. Even for the young adult audience, I've read that sci fi books should clock in around 80K in order to properly develop the plot, characters, world, and science. (That's not a rule about how long a book must be. It's just a guideline that I've read on agents' blogs concerning debuts.)

Just some thoughts. I am by no means a professional or experienced. I'm quite the amateur, actually, but I've been researching here and elsewhere for a while.

Good luck!

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

wampuscat said:
Just curious. What's your eventual intent with this? If it's just to write and put on your own site, cool. Go for it. If it's to self-publish to a niche market, you're probably fine. If you want to go a more traditional route and try to get an agent or a publisher, you might need to do some research.

Hi wampus.
Possibly the second. Self pub to a niche market.
There's nothing to then stop a publisher from approaching you, nor a screen-writer. You own all rights after all.
Oh yeah, one caveat: All this glory is assuming of course the story is worthy enough ( I have a hunch at 50k words, my book might not even make a decent paper weight!)

I've been seeing a trend with today's gen of young readers, they prefer shorter books, at least that is my experience.
I could flesh out descriptions more, and put in more beats, but I'm trying my best to get primarily the science in (this is not typical space opera sci-fi).

I have a feeling the last three chapters will provide, hopefully, the food-for-though and shock value of the story that the previous 140 pages build up to.

Let's see how it goes.
The website is only a value added extra for people who read the book and want to learn more.

Dirrogate: A portmanteau of 'Digital Surrogate' is one of the original creations in the story.
www.memoriesofmaya.com and www.dirrogate.com lead to the website.

Regards!

thothguard51 · Feb 6, 2013

Do you have permission to use Elton John's song? If not, you have a problem on your home page...

I understand music can inspire feelings and even stories, but you have to be careful about the images and songs you attribute on your web page to your own work... Most are copyrighted.

As to downloading the sample chapters, I never download content from anyone I do not know. You might get better results if you load the content directly to your web page so people can read it there without having to download something onto their computer that could have a virus or cookies they do not want...

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

thothguard51 said:
Do you have permission to use Elton John's song? If not, you have a problem on your home page...

Hi thotguard51,
The song is a direct embed from youtube, which I think is allowed (otherwise youtube does disable embedding) same goes for the Dido song.

I understand music can inspire feelings and even stories, but you have to be careful about the images and songs you attribute on your web page to your own work... Most are copyrighted.

You have a point here. I will investigate more. I always thought that youtube is embedded, and if your not charging access to the site to view the embedded video it was Ok.

I will investigate the "attribution" angle though. Maybe I should remove the explanation of the lyrics to the sentiment in the book? The book itself does not reference or use lyrics from any songs.

As to downloading the sample chapters, I never download content from anyone I do not know. You might get better results if you load the content directly to your web page so people can read it there without having to download something onto their computer that could have a virus or cookies they do not want...

Point well made. My first post in this thread has a link to the 5 chapters on Authonomy where it can be read in full (but of course more typos on that version, as it's still all a WIP)

Still, the PDF is on my site for those willing to download.
Thanks for your advice on the songs part.

Regards

Old Hack · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
Hi wampus.
Possibly the second. Self pub to a niche market.
There's nothing to then stop a publisher from approaching you, nor a screen-writer. You own all rights after all.

The odds of this happening are miniscule. Very few writers are signed to trade publishers in this way, despite what you might have read online about how this is a good way to get published.

Oh yeah, one caveat: All this glory is assuming of course the story is worthy enough ( I have a hunch at 50k words, my book might not even make a decent paper weight!)

You need to find out what an appropriate length for a book of this genre is.

I've been seeing a trend with today's gen of young readers, they prefer shorter books, at least that is my experience.
I could flesh out descriptions more, and put in more beats, but I'm trying my best to get primarily the science in (this is not typical space opera sci-fi).

Either you write a science book or you write a good novel. You can't sacrifice plot, characterisation etc in favour of science if you want your readers to enjoy your work.

cly3d said:
I will investigate the "attribution" angle though. Maybe I should remove the explanation of the lyrics to the sentiment in the book? The book itself does not reference or use lyrics from any songs.

It's very expensive to acquire permission to quote song lyrics, no matter where or how you intend to use them. Be careful, please.

thothguard51 · Feb 6, 2013

Cly3d,

Just a few suggestions, based on my experience over the last ten years...

1...Never every post your work in public unless it is absolutely ready for prime time. This includes your own web pages or sites like authonomy.

2...If you post for critiques on writers boards, make sure that the forum you post in is password protected. This makes it very hard for someone searching google to find old, embarrassing works you may not want someone to comment on in the future.

3...50,000 word novella where hard science is the main focus and world and character building are secondary. No offense, but even if the science is stellar, its the characters and world readers are really interested in and will remember. If I want to read technical journals I go to the non-fiction section of the book store...

4...The writing matters, always.

5...The story matters, always.

6...You say this could lead to a trilogy. Well if the readers can not connect with the story, characters, or world in the first book because all the technical science stuff gets in the way, more than likely then, they are not going to pay for a second or third book on the chance that it gets better. You get once chance to impress the reader in the first book. If it fails, trilogy over...

There is a place for hard boiled SF but it is usually mixed within the confines of a story and enhances the story, and story is told through characters and the world they live in...

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Either you write a science book or you write a good novel. You can't sacrifice plot, characterisation etc in favour of science if you want your readers to enjoy your work.

Agree with all your other points. On this one, I'll play the experimental card.
if no one breaks the mold, we'll either have literary masterpieces with no real science, or we'll have space operas that won't contribute to real science is my opinion!

I'm willing to take the chance that readers will put this book down and have something to think about (other than a missing character arc) The plot is there!

Well, it's only the conviction that will keep me going, or else my experimental card is worthless.
(P.S I've already written a science book that's doing kinda ok: www.amazon.com/dp/1470150778 and oh boy is it ever riddled with typos and grammar boo boos. But I suppose you learn from your mistakes, hence the need to edit this one by more than one set of eyes.)

It's very expensive to acquire permission to quote song lyrics, no matter where or how you intend to use them. Be careful, please.

Got it! advice heeded. I'm removing the two lines of lyrics on the webpage
Thanks for the advice on this.

Regards

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

thothguard51 said:
6...You say this could lead to a trilogy. Well if the readers can not connect with the story, characters, or world in the first book because all the technical science stuff gets in the way, more than likely then, they are not going to pay for a second or third book on the chance that it gets better. You get once chance to impress the reader in the first book. If it fails, trilogy over...

There is a place for hard boiled SF but it is usually mixed within the confines of a story and enhances the story, and story is told through characters and the world they live in...

Good advice Thothguard and I mean it.
I am trying to balance both. That's why I believe that for the audience that I think the story is aimed at, the 50,000 to 60,000 word count is a good sweet spot.

Most on facebook these days barely want to read, much less read long novels. I realize this won't make sense to many on a writing forum as we all love to read, but if I am to address a market that I hope to convert, I have to experiment.

That's why a couple of chapters even ramble on with nightclub life, but there's science in there too.

It's also good advice on what you say about Google. But if I am to genuinely learn and truly accept the criticism, WIP will have to be put up. At least if the book shines at some point, I could show the hard struggle

If it tanks and I still make a few million years down the line on something else, I'm gonna be the one having the last laugh anyway

Again... my hero(ine) E.L James comes to mind :-D

Katrina S. Forest · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
I've been seeing a trend with today's gen of young readers, they prefer shorter books, at least that is my experience.
I could flesh out descriptions more, and put in more beats, but I'm trying my best to get primarily the science in (this is not typical space opera sci-fi).

Don't take this the wrong way, but what exactly is your experience that's lead you to believe this? Because the YA section at every bookstore I've been in suggests otherwise.

cly3d said:
I have a feeling the last three chapters will provide, hopefully, the food-for-though and shock value of the story that the previous 140 pages build up to.

I assume you are well-read in your genre, so let me ask, how many pages will you read of something that doesn't catch your interest before you give up and look for another book? Would you buy a book in which the sample didn't interest you, but the author promised that the last 3 chapters were worth it? If not, why would you expect others to do so?

cly3d said:
It's also good advice on what you say about Google. But if I am to genuinely learn and truly accept the criticism, WIP will have to be put up.

It doesn't, though. There's critique groups, beta-readers, and password-protected boards like AW's Share Your Work section where you can get feedback without making your work searchable on Google.

cly3d said:
I realize the writing so far is also riddled with cliches, most sentences begin the same way, and these are only some of the missing things even I could spot. The book is aimed at a technically inclined audience and so the hard science is going to anyway overwhelm the story/ character arc. However this is not an excuse, and I will work as far as I can on improving the literary aspects of the writing.

If you know these are issues, don't just plan to fix them. Go and actually do it -- before you put the book online, before you discuss getting a beta-reader or paid editor and even before posting in SYW. These are valuable resources and having such people tell you what you already know is a waste of your time and theirs.

cly3d said:
It may be a trilogy, in which case the 2Dimensional character (Maya) gets developed. There is a good reason for this, and it's revealed in chapter 7 ( 5 chapters are online, out of a total chapter count of 8)

Okay, I've got an emotionless cyborg for a protagonist, so I feel the dilemma here. But don't ever tell yourself, "I can't do that, because..."* In the words of Tim Gunn, make it work. Make Maya 3-dimensional. Make the science stellar and the writing engaging from page one. This is your book. Make it the best it can be from all angles.

*This phrase made Holly Lisle's Stench of Doom list, which is a fun read, if you're curious: http://hollylisle.com/how-to-tell-who-wont-make-it-in-writing-and-how-not-to-be-that-writer/)

TMCan · Feb 6, 2013

It seems kind of backwards that you expect teens to read a hard science book, but not anything passed novella length. As a young adult I would definitely say its the other way around. I wouldn't even give a book that short a second glance unless there was something amazing about it and hard science with little character or plot development is not it.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Wow that was rather detailed

And I'm assuming you already read the first chapter of my WIP book to see if its worthy enough to invest time into, and maybe to bear with and plod through a couple of chapters later where the science gets too strong?

Yes I do see people in the YA section of bookstores. Problem is I'm seeing the *same* people at the store. I'm aiming for converts... That's what I mean by the FB crowd

Also, The book isn't exactly for only the vampire reading YA audience.
Or the romance section of the bookstore. But yes I see your point, YA will read, the point is, I believe the sweet spot is 50,000 to 60,000 tight knit story, I'm aiming for the lower figure. I've seen people use 3 screens at once, tv iPad and cellphone. I should know, my day job is transmedia technology demonstrations and workshops.

At Least on AW I believe I need 50 posts before I can post to the SYW area.
I'm getting there though on post count!

Cheers

Ps typing on iPhone and I think it's messed up my post!

Katrina S. Forest said:
Don't take this the wrong way, but what exactly is your experience that's lead you to believe this? Because the YA section at every bookstore I've been in suggests otherwise.

I assume you are well-read in your genre, so let me ask, how many pages will you read of something that doesn't catch your interest before you give up and look for another book? Would you buy a book in which the sample didn't interest you, but the author promised that the last 3 chapters were worth it? If not, why would you expect others to do so?

It doesn't, though. There's critique groups, beta-readers, and password-protected boards like AW's Share Your Work section where you can get feedback without making your work searchable on Google.

If you know these are issues, don't just plan to fix them. Go and actually do it -- before you put the book online, before you discuss getting a beta-reader or paid editor and even before posting in SYW. These are valuable resources and having such people tell you what you already know is a waste of your time and theirs.

Okay, I've got an emotionless cyborg for a protagonist, so I feel the dilemma here. But don't ever tell yourself, "I can't do that, because..."* In the words of Tim Gunn, make it work. Make Maya 3-dimensional. Make the science stellar and the writing engaging from page one. This is your book. Make it the best it can be from all angles.

*This phrase made Holly Lisle's Stench of Doom list, which is a fun read, if you're curious: http://hollylisle.com/how-to-tell-who-wont-make-it-in-writing-and-how-not-to-be-that-writer/)

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Read the first few chapters wearing an unbiased hat, (not that I'm saying you have a biased one on)
I'm not aiming this at teens. Where did you get that idea from? FB is also used by people in the 20 to 40 yr group actively.

If you still believe that there's nothing worth looking at in the book, post yr opinion and I'll certainly learn from it.
This is why putting a WIP out is helpful. It can be tweaked and crowd sourced to influence its outcome in realtime.

the near future of story-telling, I tend to call it.

Regards.

TMCan said:
It seems kind of backwards that you expect teens to read a hard science book, but not anything passed novella length. As a young adult I would definitely say its the other way around. I wouldn't even give a book that short a second glance unless there was something amazing about it and hard science with little character or plot development is not it.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

I just realized we drifted off the topic of the thread

Not that I'm ungrateful or anything! I've learned quite a bit and got one possible editor on board too. So thanks everyone.

Signing off for now it's 1:40am here.

TMCan · Feb 6, 2013

I said teens because you use the phrase YA which is geared towards teenagers. I myself am in my 20s I just read a lot of YA. From your discription I fit perfectly into your demographic, I frequently use my tablet, phone, laptop, and tv at the same time and I read more epic fantasy and sci-fi than anything. Im not one of those sparkly vampire readers.mI'm just mostly trying to figure out why you think such a short book is what readers want. To my understanding novellas don't sell as well as novels. I maybe wrong, but refering to my research into mg, ya, and na fiction sales for my publishing house internship, though sci-fi is in, it is generally expected to be a bit longer than other genres. The only books I see as short as yours that sell really well are romances. I do not mean to offend, I am just trying to get clarification.

up to $400 to sentence structure check my 50,000 word novel(ette)

cly3d

regdog

The Scavengers

Jamesaritchie

wampuscat

Recovering adjective addict

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

cly3d

Jamesaritchie

wampuscat

Recovering adjective addict

Maryn

At Sea

cly3d

cly3d

wampuscat

Recovering adjective addict

cly3d

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

cly3d

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

cly3d

cly3d

Katrina S. Forest

TMCan

cly3d

cly3d

cly3d

TMCan