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rhymegirl
01-31-2006, 09:09 PM
Well, guess who's on TV tonight? You guessed it, George Dubya.

So the question is: Will you be watching?

scfirenice
01-31-2006, 09:11 PM
Only if someone promises to ***** him. : ) No, I'll be asleep by then.

William Haskins
01-31-2006, 09:24 PM
yes, i will watch.

BradyH1861
01-31-2006, 09:27 PM
Naturally I will watch. I can't wait to hear him use the "I'm the president so I can do what I want" line over and over and over again. Ah yes, it will be exciting. I'll probably make some popcorn and have a party. I do, however, wish I could be there in person. Every few minutes I would stand up and start chanting "Donate your pay to save Ken De Lay!"

Of course, I'd probably end up detained as a terror suspect if I did that.

rhymegirl
01-31-2006, 09:38 PM
Hmm, now I'm wondering if I should have posted this thread in the TIO section.

clintl
01-31-2006, 09:39 PM
No.

BradyH1861
01-31-2006, 09:40 PM
Come on, everyone, join in:


DONATE YOUR PAY TO SAVE KEN DE LAY!

VictoriaE
01-31-2006, 09:43 PM
I watched his last State of Address and was by no means impressed. I know that a number of people do not fancy him (myself included), but he does have the hardest job in the country and he pulled it off well. When you think of what he has done the past few years, it is very difficult to try and add logic to it in less than a half hour.

I will probably be watching, yes.

WerenCole
01-31-2006, 09:45 PM
Gee, who are you talking about again?

William Haskins
01-31-2006, 09:46 PM
he'll be downright bubbly following alito's swearing in today.

BradyH1861
01-31-2006, 09:54 PM
he'll be downright bubbly following alito's swearing in today.

I will not comment on the swearing in of Alito other than to say that I fear what this holds in store for our criminal justice system.

rhymegirl
01-31-2006, 09:58 PM
Brady, I thought we all voted for you.

William Haskins
01-31-2006, 10:01 PM
I will not comment on the swearing in of Alito other than to say that I fear what this holds in store for our criminal justice system.

well, as you curse the authoritarian right who put him in a position of ultimate power, be sure to also curse the spineless opposition.

BradyH1861
01-31-2006, 10:02 PM
Well, so did I. But I haven't gotten a call from Washington yet. Furthermore, I do not want Alito's spot on the bench. I want the Chief Justiceship which belongs to John Roberts. Unfortunately, he is a relatively young man and so I'll have to wait a long time.

That said, I actually think he has the makings of a good Chief Justice.

BradyH1861
01-31-2006, 10:03 PM
well, as you curse the authoritarian right who put him in a position of ultimate power, be sure to also curse the spineless opposition.

I curse all politicians equally. And Ted "Hiccup" Kennedy gets on my nerves. Seriously, can't someone else speak for the Democratic Party (which I am not a member of)

rhymegirl
01-31-2006, 10:08 PM
Well, so did I. But I haven't gotten a call from Washington yet. Furthermore, I do not want Alito's spot on the bench. I want the Chief Justiceship which belongs to John Roberts. Unfortunately, he is a relatively young man and so I'll have to wait a long time.

That said, I actually think he has the makings of a good Chief Justice.

I stand corrected. You want John Roberts' position.

Shadow_Ferret
01-31-2006, 10:31 PM
Who is Ken De Lay?

And no I won't be watching, I think we have a Monk season 1 disk we haven't gotten to yet and we have to finish the Muppets season 1 disk 1.

Politics bores me and bad speakers make me grit my teeth.

kathompson
01-31-2006, 11:11 PM
No...we have a bunch of stuff on the TiVo to watch instead. I'll read the summary of watever Bush spews forth online later.

BradyH1861
01-31-2006, 11:30 PM
Who is Ken De Lay?


In a word, Enron.

jst5150
02-01-2006, 12:04 AM
Van De Lay Industries' Uncle. :-)

Shadow_Ferret
02-01-2006, 12:11 AM
In a word, Enron.

Ah, that explains it. More politics I wasn't paying attention to. ;)


Van De Lay Industries' Uncle. :-)
Yeah, that helps. :Shrug:

special needs
02-01-2006, 12:32 AM
I really can't stand the George Bush bashing from every American in the country anymore...

eldragon
02-01-2006, 12:35 AM
We don't have TV, but I wouldn't watch it anyway.


Maybe I have some old Howdy Doody Cartoon lying around, and I can overdub it with mispronounced words and incorrect sentences. Same thing, right? Howdy reminds us how he is going to take over the world, because God is on his side and although he preciates the fact that Americans have free speech and everything, it all basically means nothing as long as he is around.

Howdy says:

"We are going to hunt down the terrorists and I will darn well do as I please as long as I am using the word "terrorist," at frequent intervals. Even though our economy is worse than ever, and our Federal deficit will never be paid off, those darned terrorists are the top priority, that is, finding them and killing them and stuff. I'm gonna send those poor guys I wouldn't spit on, I mean, our brave soldiers into a war they will never win and hopefully I won't even have to pay them fairly for their time. I'm also going to call for a cutback of reservists, because there aren't anyway. Just look at the Gulf Coast of Mississippi, and how there is no money to fix it. Why, I was just there last week, on my way to a high flutin dinner in Florida, and someone made me stop and tell those folks that things are comin along fine. Boy, I got scared when one of them asked me to go inside their FEMA trailer! Luckily for me, Trent Lott was having a cocktail party and I had to go. As most of my supporters do, them good folks in Mississippi believed me when I told them again that help was on the way.

What I meant was, "You're in my way."
And speaking of my way, we are sure winning the war on terror."

eldragon
02-01-2006, 12:36 AM
I really can't stand the George Bush bashing from every American in the country anymore...


Unfortunately, it's not every American. If it were even close to being every American, the man would have been impeached a long time ago. Let's give Cheney a go at it. It couldn't be worse.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 12:48 AM
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/2006.01.html (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/2006.01.html)



There have been 2,443 coalition deaths, 2,241 Americans, one Australian, 100 Britons, 13 Bulgarians, two Danes, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 26 Italians, one Kazakh, one Latvian, 17 Poles, two Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and 18 Ukrainians in the war in Iraq as of January 31, 2006, according to a CNN count.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 12:50 AM
PRESIDENT BUSH Overall Job Ratingin recent news media/nonpartisan national polls See also: (http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob1.htm) Complete trend (http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob1.htm)
Survey





ApproveDisap-
proveUnsureApprove


minusDates%%%Disapprove
.







NBC/Wall Street Journal1/26-29/0639547-15
.







Time1/24-26/0641554-14
.







ABC/Washington Post1/23-26/0642562-14
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV1/24-25/0641518-10
.







Cook/RT Strategies1/22-25/0647503-3
.







L.A. Times/Bloomberg1/22-25/0643543-11
.







CBS/New York Times1/20-25/0642517-9
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup1/20-22/0643544-11
.







Diageo/Hotline RV1/12-15/0646532-7
.







Gallup1/9-12/0643534-10
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV1/10-11/0642499-7
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup1/6-8/0643543-11
.







ABC/Washington Post1/5-8/0646522-6
.







CBS1/5-8/0641527-11
.







Pew1/4-8/0638548-16
.







AP-Ipsos *1/3-5/064059-19
.







Gallup12/19-22/0543534-10
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup12/16-18/0541563-15
.







ABC/Washington Post12/15-18/0547521-5
.







NPR LV12/15, 17-18/0544542-10
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV12/13-14/0542517-9
.







Diageo/Hotline RV12/12-13/0550473+3
.







NBC/Wall Street Journal12/9-12/0539556-16
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup12/9-11/0542553-13
.







Cook/RT Strategies12/8-11/0542552-13
.







Pew12/7-11/0538548-16
.







Gallup12/5-8/0543525-9
.







AP-Ipsos *12/5-7/054257-15
.







CBS/New York Times12/2-6/0540537-13
.







Quinnipiac RV11/28 - 12/4/0540547-14
.







Time11/29 - 12/1/0541535-12
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV11/29-30/05424810-6
.







Cook/RT Strategies11/17-20/0541527-11
.







Gallup11/17-20/0538575-19
.







Diageo/Hotline RV11/11-15/0539592-20
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup11/11-13/0537603-23
.







Newsweek11/10-11/0536586-22
.







Gallup11/7-10/0540555-15
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV11/8-9/05365311-17
.







AP-Ipsos *11/7-9/053761-24
.







NBC/Wall Street Journal11/4-7/0538575-19
.







Pew11/3-6/0536559-19
.







AP-Ipsos *10/31 - 11/2/053759-22
.







ABC/Washington Post10/30 - 11/2/0539601-21
.







CBS10/30 - 11/1/0535578-22
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup10/28-30/0541563-15
.







ABC/Washington Post10/28-29/0539583-19
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV10/25-26/0541518-10
.







Gallup10/24-26/0541563-15
.







Pew10/12-24/0540528-12
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup10/21-23/0542553-13
.







WNBC/Marist RV10/12-13 & 17/0541536-12
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup10/13-16/0539583-19
.







Diageo/Hotline RV10/12-16/0540572-17
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV10/11-12/0540519-11
.







NBC/Wall Street Journal10/8-10/0539547-15
.







Pew10/6-10/0538566-18
.







AP-Ipsos *10/3-5/053958-19
.







CBS10/3-5/0537585-21
.







Newsweek9/29-30/0540537-13
.







FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV9/27-28/0545478-2
.







CNN/USA Today/Gallup9/26-28/0545505-5
.







ABC/Washington Post9/8-11/0542571-15
.







Pew9/8-11/0540528-12
.





Time9/7-8/0542526-10


Darn, this poll doesn't look right. Still, ever wonder why people are complaining? Besides, Diageo/Hotline, he has all disaproval ratings now.

rtilryarms
02-01-2006, 12:51 AM
I have watched almost every SOTU since JFK. In the end, we are all in this together.
i don't hate him. I wish I knew more about why we were in Iraq but I may have to wait for decassification documents to judge.
Even still My family is over there and I intend to support our troops. I refrain from speaking ill at wartime.

But i understand the sentiment.

Shwebb
02-01-2006, 12:56 AM
I will be watching because, as much as I hate politics, I feel it's my duty as an American peon to at least know what is going on. Of course, I don't think the speech will tell me what's really going on.

Like voting--I always vote because it's my right and so therefore a duty. Even though I never get to vote for the one I want because he/she aren't on the ballot.

Kevin Yarbrough
02-01-2006, 12:56 AM
I really can't stand the George Bush bashing from every American in the country anymore...

After what happened after Rita, I think he deserves it. He put people in power that had no idea what they were doing. He was having birthday cake and playing country music and then speaking about Medicare while people were drowning. He can't keep up the lie that he didn't know what wasn't going on because he has people that keep their eyes and ears open when he is busy. He was just on vacation and didn't want to be bothered. As soon as 9-11 someone came in during his reading and told him. Is it not possible that someone could have came in during his "jam" session and informed him of the huge problem in N.O.? I just don't think he cared, at least not until he caught wind of all the bad PR.

But then again, this is only my opinion. I liked the guy after 9-11, didn't like him after Rita. And the main thing that really pissed me off wasn't that it took him so long to get down there but it was the flag. After 9-11 the flag was flown at half mast. After Rita it wasn't, it was a few days later when the Supreme court guy died. Tells you who mattered more don't it.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 12:57 AM
approval poll ratings that won't give you a migraine.

http://realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/bush_ja.html

special needs
02-01-2006, 01:07 AM
To be honest, whether he 'deserves the bashing' and what he did to 'deserve it', is simply irrelevant. Has he made mistakes? Yes. But the fact remains that EVERY president we've EVER had has made mistakes. Was Thomas Jefferson a bad president? No--but did he make a mistake in putting in the Embargo Act? Yes!

I like Bush for one reason and one reason only. In America, something bad has to happen before something is changed. The instant 9/11 happened, Bush called the planes out of the sky. Clinton? He would've said "We'll wait and see what happens." Bush didn't wait, and it surely saved a lot of lives.

Americans voted for him and Americans should support him. Since everyone hates him, how did he become president? We didn't vote for him once--we voted for him twice. (Actually, I never voted for him, but someone did!)

I guess I just dont see the point of continually bashing someone you dont even know for making decisions you disagree with.

Peggy
02-01-2006, 01:07 AM
I'll watch and I'll almost certainly get annoyed and argue with the television. :) What really bugs me is not so much that I disagree with Bush's politics (which I do), but that the State of the Union is such an orchestrated political rally.

What I predict: "Let us take a moment of silent prayer for the victims of Hurricane Katrina", "We are winning the war on terrorism, so real patriotic Americans don't mind if their telephone conversations are bugged", "Our program for X has really helped the children/elderly/puppies, so we will do more of the same", "We are helping found a democracy in Iraq", "Next year will be even better!". At appropriate moments the cameras will focus on the "special guests" in the audience: a poor black couple rescued from New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and "back on their feet" with assistance from FEMA, a young man in uniform just back from Afghanistan, a new female member of the Iraqi parliament, an elderly man who must fill many prescriptions and loves the new Medicare drug benefit, the single mother whose child "was not left behind". Cheers and applause!

It makes me want to throw things at the screen. This isn't just a Republican thing or a Democrat thing, but a politician thing.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 01:16 AM
It's hard work.

special needs
02-01-2006, 01:18 AM
People freaking out over their phones being 'tapped' is---well, I disagree with it.

Ask yourself these questions:
1. Are you a terrorist? If the answer to this question is yes, you belong locked in prison, and not posting on a writing forum.
2. Are you discussing things on the phone that you do not want the government to know? If the answer to this question is yes, you likely belong in a prison as well, but perhaps you could provide argument for this?
3. Do you honestly think that your phone is tapped--the government is tapping your phone when they could be tapping the phones of known terrorists?


...4. So why do you care?

And you can argue about "American rights" all you want, but the people whose phones are being tapped are not good people---they're very, very, very bad people who are trying to kill you. You'd rather die than live with the possibility that someone's listening to you tell someone how cute Bobby is?

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 01:18 AM
The instant 9/11 happened, Bush called the planes out of the sky. Clinton? He would've said "We'll wait and see what happens." Bush didn't wait, and it surely saved a lot of lives.

There's a lot of speculation on your part -- that you think Clinton wouldn't have cared about America to act? For one thing, Clinton helped more average Americans than GWB ever did or will.

And when was Bush when Hurricane Katrina struck? Vacation. It took him four days to leave his ranch. Talk about compassion...

This blind worship of GWB's got to stop.

Repeat after me: "George W. Bush is a lousy President."

special needs
02-01-2006, 01:20 AM
Nope, Clinton would've cared. All presidents would've cared. But Bush is the only one who would have called the planes out of the air without thought.

Shadow_Ferret
02-01-2006, 01:32 AM
You'd rather die than live with the possibility that someone's listening to you tell someone how cute Bobby is?

I'd rather live free and die free. To use that oft-quoted ... er ... quote attributed to, rightly or wrongly, Benjamin Franklin: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Unique
02-01-2006, 01:37 AM
Nope, Clinton would've cared. All presidents would've cared. But Bush is the only one who would have called the planes out of the air without thought.

and that did what, exactly?

it's too late to shut the door when the horse is out of the barn.

special needs
02-01-2006, 01:38 AM
So...you aren't free....you suddenly live in a country that is not free...because you feel that your phone is being tapped? .....why, I ask, if you aren't discussing something that you don't want government officals to know---why, then, do you care?

jst5150
02-01-2006, 01:42 AM
George: "Say Van de Lay Industries! Say Van De Lay industries!"
Kramer: "What? Why?"

Peggy
02-01-2006, 01:44 AM
2. Are you discussing things on the phone that you do not want the government to know? If the answer to this question is yes, you likely belong in a prison as well, but perhaps you could provide argument for this?There are lots of things I'd rather the government not know about me - that includes who my friends are, what I like to eat, my favorite books, which medications I'm taking. It has nothing to do with whether those things are legal or illegal - it has to do with personal privacy. Why is that important to me? I suspect that terrorists don't explicitly chat with each other about "planting a bomb Tuesday". Instead they talk in code words. Unfortunately, that means that perfectly innocent conversations may be taken as code. What if I'm discussing a book that is critical of the war in Iraq and I say I agree? Could that make me sound suspicious? possibly. Does that mean I should be in prison? Not in the world I want to live in.

3. Do you honestly think that your phone is tapped--the government is tapping your phone when they could be tapping the phones of known terrorists? Well, the biggest problem in the fight against terrorism is that most of the terrorists are NOT known. (and what is making many people upset is not the tapping per se, but that it has been done without warrants. If the terrorist is "known", it shouldn't be hard to get a warrent to eavesdrop on him.) It's the little guy in the terrorist organizations who does the dirty work, not the visible leaders. To prevent an attack by listening to phone conversations (as opposed to infiltrating an organization), many many phone calls would have to be "listened to". I put that in quotes because I don't believe that there are a couple of guys sitting with headphones on and listening to every call in America. I suspect that they may be run through some kind of voice recognition software that flags conversations when specific words show up.

4. So why do you care?

And you can argue about "American rights" all you want, but the people whose phones are being tapped are not good people---they're very, very, very bad people who are trying to kill you. You'd rather die than live with the possibility that someone's listening to you tell someone how cute Bobby is?The whole point is that the phones being tapped are not known to be very very bad people. Instead it is much broader than that. Have you ever criticised the goverment? I have (I would say most thinking adults have criticised the government for something). That does not make me a subversive or a terrorist or anti-American. I don't want some thoughtless program branding me as such.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 01:44 AM
I don't have anything to hide and I still don't want them listening to my phone calls. Do you believe Bush when he says it is only being used in certain specific cases?

Before you answer, remember, this is the same person who is stonewalling the committee trying to investigate the Katrina affair, claiming "no one knew the levies would break" despite affirmative proof that the White House was warned PRIOR to landfall that it was possible. He is also trying to prevent information from getting before the committee. Even the REPUBLICAN Senate Majority leader says Bush is wrong to do that. (in an interview on Meet the Press last Sunday)

If he is willing to cover up Katrina, doesn't it stand to reason that he is willing to cover up what is really going on at the NSA.

Oh, and if Bush is so "patriotic", why does he let the Mexican Army cross the border and threaten US Law Enforcement officials without ANY response?

brokenfingers
02-01-2006, 01:45 AM
Well, guess who's on TV tonight? You guessed it, George Dubya.

So the question is: Will you be watching?Nah. I'll just read about it tomorrow. I'm sure there'll be scores of articles to inform me all about it.

Stuff like that tends to fall under my Same Sh!t, Different Day category.

clintl
02-01-2006, 01:45 AM
Quite honestly, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, I don't think there would have been a huge amount of difference regardless of who the president was - Clinton, Gore, Bush, whoever. They all would have listened to pretty much the same advice, and done the same thing. Where the policies would have deviated would have been down the road a ways. In fact, I'm pretty sure that every serious presidential candidate in recent memory would have invaded Afghanistan given the same circumstances.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 01:52 AM
If Brady were president, he would have declared war on Saudi Arabia......seeing as how that is where the terrorists were from and all. But they don't support terror, or so we are told.......


And I have swamp land in Florida for sale!

special needs
02-01-2006, 02:00 AM
If you aren't doing something illegal over the phone, you don't have anything to worry about. If you have nothing to hide, why does it matter? If the government wants to listen to my conversations which consist of only Bellamy Road---why do I care?

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 02:09 AM
So you don't mind if I come over to your house and search through all of your possessions then? If you don't have anything to hide, turn over your bank account information so that everyone can see that you are not helping to fund terrorists. Seriously, you have nothing to hide, do you?

I'm sorry, but the "If you don't have anything to hide" argument is pretty weak. Where will you draw the line? If it is okay for the government to listen to your phone calls without a warrant, will it one day be okay for them to simply stop by the house and dig through your stuff?

What if it was a Democrat as president? Would you be singing a different tune?

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 02:09 AM
Quite honestly, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, I don't think there would have been a huge amount of difference regardless of who the president was - Clinton, Gore, Bush, whoever. They all would have listened to pretty much the same advice, and done the same thing. Where the policies would have deviated would have been down the road a ways. In fact, I'm pretty sure that every serious presidential candidate in recent memory would have invaded Afghanistan given the same circumstances.
I agree wholeheartedly. How can anyone posting here seriously believe they know exactly what Clinton or any other President would have done in the same circumstances? To claim as if it were unassailable fact that GWB is the only person to ever hold the office who would have grounded all planes in US airspace that day is absurd in the extreme.

To answer the question: I probably will watch. There's something frighteningly fascinating about a speech given by a man with his finger on the button of the world's largest nuclear arsenal ... who can't even properly pronounce the word 'nuclear.'

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 02:11 AM
How can anyone posting here seriously believe they know exactly what Clinton or any other President would have done in the same circumstances?

I can't speak for any other Presidents, but I do know that President Brady would have invaded Saudi Arabia before Afghanistan.

DONATE YOU PAY TO SAVE TOM DELAY!

WerenCole
02-01-2006, 02:13 AM
If you aren't doing something illegal over the phone, you don't have anything to worry about. If you have nothing to hide, why does it matter? If the government wants to listen to my conversations which consist of only Bellamy Road---why do I care?


It's called precedent special, not to mention the specific civil liberties granted to us in the American constitution that could be harmed. Maybe they won't be but I am not willing to give him an opportunity to do so. . If we give him all the leeway he wants or needs to battle this war on terrorism then the precedent will be set in the future and higher than it should be, the bar only goes up. There are more pressing needs in America and he is fighting a war that does nothing around the world but piss people off and get lots of people killed, and most of them are NOT American citizens.

Dubya bashing? We are not bashing, he does it to himself, we just point it out and b!tch.

But. . . wait. . . who are we talking about again?

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 02:17 AM
At this point, I would like to toss out this factoid.

The government does not give us our rights. They are inherent in each of us. Since they do not give them to us, they have no legitimate power to take them away. Consequently, an act against the Constitution is null and void. Our Constitution here in Texas specifically says that all provisions of our state bill of rights is exempted from the powers of all three branches of the government.

In theory, the same applies to the U.S. Constitution and all the amendments.

special needs
02-01-2006, 02:25 AM
Personally, if violating some terrorist's rights so that I don't have to die means, well, violating their rights---I hope they keep doing it. If my phone needs to be tapped to save innocent people, I hope they tap it. We're all acting more noble than we are if we're saying we'd rather them not tap our phones and die than the other way around...

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 02:37 AM
Personally, if violating some terrorist's rights so that I don't have to die means, well, violating their rights---I hope they keep doing it.
And how does tapping an American's telephone violate the rights of a terrorist from Afghanistan or Iraq or Saudi Arabia, etc? Just wondering.

Thing is, before 9/11 your laws (and ours) already allowed tapping of phones, intercepting emails, etc. under certain circumstances. The problem is that these laws are being altered so that the safeguards put in place to keep our governments from becoming less and less democratic are being eroded. Where is it going to stop? When is enough enough? When the cops can kick your door in without a warrant?

I'd rather die free than live a prisoner of an authoritarian leadership. In fact, that's exactly what every American, Canadian etc. who fought and died in WWI and WWII was fighting for. How dare any government take away the freedoms our ancestors died to give us.

Just my opinion.

clintl
02-01-2006, 02:39 AM
Here's the basic problem. GWB can legally tap the phones he says he wants to tap by getting a warrant from a secret intelligence court that has existed since 1978, and has refused to grant a warrant a grand total of 4 times in 28 years. Most of the time, the court issues warrants right away (within hours, if necessary). He can even tap phones for a short time before that (15 days, I think it is), and use that evidence to get the warrant. So his claims that legally getting these warrants is too burdensome just isn't logical.

So where might the burden be? Obviously, he wants to be able to tap phones of people who he has no evidence of a security threat, and he's doing it. And he lied about until he got caught red-handed doing it (back in 2004, he flat out said that the government needed a warrant to conduct wiretaps, and it wasn't wiretapping anyone without a warrant).

I'm sorry, but I think the government has all the legal tools it needs to conduct this kind of surveillance, and these illegal wiretaps are not contributing much, if anything at all, to improve security. They're just another example of this president using war as an excuse to trash the Constitution.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 02:40 AM
No we are not. I served my country. I have take two oaths to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, both military and then again as a "public servant". That means something to me. I cannot and will not support any intrusion upon the rights of any American citizens no matter what their beliefs or actions are. Simply allowing the government to decide when they have to follow the law is fundamentally dangerous.

But don't take my word for it. Here is what Supreme Court Justice Tom Clark had to say in Mapp v. Ohio:

"The criminal goes free, if he must, but it is the law that sets him free. Nothing can destroy a government more quickly than its failure to observe its own laws, or worse, its disregard of the charter of its own existence."

And if you and Bush are so concerned about acts of terror, why the total lack of border security? Why does he not care that a foriegn military is crossing our borders and pointing guns at our law enforcement officers? Surely terrorists can slip across our southern border. Why no outcry over that?

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 02:52 AM
I served my country. I have take two oaths to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, both military and then again as a "public servant".
You have my undying gratitude, Brady, for it is people like you in both our nations who make it possible for the rest of us to be able to debate these issues. Salute!

special needs
02-01-2006, 02:54 AM
Okay. So he's a liar. I don't agree with that statement, but that's irrelevant. (the fact that i dont agree with it is irrelevant, i mean, not the statement, itself) But if this is what he has to do, to keep me safe, then I hope he does it. Period. Maybe I'm not noble, call me whatever you'd like, but I want to be safe, i want my family to be safe, and if this means that terrorists have their phones tapped into....good.

SC Harrison
02-01-2006, 03:12 AM
Okay. So he's a liar. I don't agree with that statement, but that's irrelevant. (the fact that i dont agree with it is irrelevant, i mean, not the statement, itself) But if this is what he has to do, to keep me safe, then I hope he does it. Period. Maybe I'm not noble, call me whatever you'd like, but I want to be safe, i want my family to be safe, and if this means that terrorists have their phones tapped into....good.

You know what, Special? I want them to tap the phones too, and I want them to stop terror attacks before they happen. But I also want them to adhere to the constitutional safeguards put into place; meaning they must convince a judge that there is a need for this intrusion. They don't even need to worry about a ticking bomb scenario, because they can get the warrant after the fact. The problem is, they are skipping the whole warrant-getting altogether. That's what the bruhaha is all about. It's not about tying their hands in this war, it's about ensuring they follow the law, which they don't want to do. The only reason (I think) they would keep a judge out of it, is if some of these incidents would not stand up under the scrutiny of judicial review. In the absence of oversight, the only controls are individual ethics, and that is not nearly enough to make me feel safe.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 03:22 AM
Nope, Clinton would've cared. All presidents would've cared. But Bush is the only one who would have called the planes out of the air without thought.

Right, after he finished reading "My Three Goats."

clintl
02-01-2006, 03:25 AM
Okay. So he's a liar. I don't agree with that statement, but that's irrelevant.

I don't think it's irrelevant. He was asked in 2004 specifically about wiretapping without a warrant, and he said that it was illegal without a warrant from a court. There was no equivocation on the point on his part. But once he was caught doing it, and evidence surfaced that this had been going on since 2002 (nearly two years before his 2004 statement), he said that Congress gave him the authorization to conduct warrantless wiretaps. He lied. There is no reasonable doubt about that fact. And if he is going to lie about that, why should we trust him concerning who he's targeting in these wiretaps? There's documentary evidence that they WILL abuse this power - we already know that the Pentagon has spied on a group of Quakers in Florida.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 03:26 AM
If you aren't doing something illegal over the phone, you don't have anything to worry about. If you have nothing to hide, why does it matter? If the government wants to listen to my conversations which consist of only Bellamy Road---why do I care?

You are Totally Missing The Point. Read 1984 and come back to continue the discussion.

Let's say, would you have trouble with me dropping by your house unannounced, go inside and see what you're watching on your TV, and maybe go over some of your cereals and watch your kid play for a while, while you're sleeping? How about that? You have nothing to hide, right? Then you shouldn't worry about me going over to your house without you knowing...

special needs
02-01-2006, 03:28 AM
The government does not care if person a had sex with person b last night, or if you went to the store, or if your child is doing well in school, or anything else that normal people talk about in normal phone conversations. So what you're lacking here is a motive. Why SHOULD they tap into the phones of people who are not terrorists and who are not a danger to the U.S?

I will continue to think that it IS too bothersome to obtain warrants for everyone they want to tap. We're talking about the lives of thousands of people here. I hope they tap the phones of jillion people and save us....I dont care how they do it, I just care that the government takes all necessary precautions to protect us.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 03:29 AM
You have my undying gratitude, Brady, for it is people like you in both our nations who make it possible for the rest of us to be able to debate these issues. Salute!

I, for one, like Canadians. Even if they do talk a little funny......

Thanks, C.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 03:30 AM
And if you and Bush are so concerned about acts of terror, why the total lack of border security?

Bravo, Brady!

You know what, all these wiretapping, body-padding, etc. are only going to matter to law-abiding citizens like granny over there at the airport. Meanwhile, nothing is going to deter a terrorist who is determined to enter our country to do some harm. Our borders are not secured. You know how easy it is to fake a boarding pass and go through security checkpoint at the airport? I laugh at them, when they check to see my boarding pass -- it's only to slow down regular folks like you and I, but a terrorist would slip past just fine. So what's the point?

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 03:31 AM
Okay. So he's a liar. I don't agree with that statement, but that's irrelevant.

Where were you when Clinton lied?

special needs
02-01-2006, 03:33 AM
Where were you when Clinton lied?

We weren't discussing Clinton's 'lies', we were discussing the lies Bush supposedly told.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 03:35 AM
I will continue to think that it IS too bothersome to obtain warrants for everyone they want to tap.

It isn't hard to get a search warrant. Trust me. I've sworn out dozens and we don't have a FISA court to go to! We simply type up our probable cause statement, get sworn in and swear that it is the truth, etc, get the judge to sign off on it and away we go. It may take a while if the judge is busy, but we can also be in and out in several minutes. Our police officers can even do them telephonically (apparently). We arson types aren't so high tech.

The fact that they have a special court set up just for that means that it is only too bothersome if they decide it is too bothersome. Do you know what would happen if we decided that getting a warrant was too bothersome? It wouldn't matter if we uncovered the largest arson ring in American history, all the evidence we seized would be suppressed, we would get sued (and lose), and even face potential criminal charges.

If those are the rules we have to play by, so should "the boss". That is the crux of my argument. If we, the citizens, have to play by the rules, so should our government. That isn't too much to ask.

Let me add a caveat. It is much harder to develop the requisite PC to get a warrant than it is to physically get a warrant signed off on by a neutral and detached magistrate.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 03:35 AM
Where were you when Clinton lied?

I was running down the street in my underwear and heard it from a passing car radio.

Shadow_Ferret
02-01-2006, 03:36 AM
Ha! I got home and my dvd from Netflix arrived.

I will be watching the first disk of season one of Rat Patrol, just released today!

Whoohoo!

SC Harrison
02-01-2006, 03:42 AM
Why SHOULD they tap into the phones of people who are not terrorists and who are not a danger to the U.S?



Politics, for one (and a big one, it is). Watergate was not an isolated incident, it was (and still is) the tip of the iceberg.

special needs
02-01-2006, 03:47 AM
Maybe I'm too young for this discussion, but no human being, Geroge Bush included, uses THAT much time to tap into random people's phone conversations for 'politics'. It's probably very easy to get a warrant for, say, 1 person...but they're looking for every suspect---and getting a warrant for ALL of them is difficult.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 03:56 AM
Why SHOULD they tap into the phones of people who are not terrorists and who are not a danger to the U.S?
Lemme see now....
-- dig up dirt on Democrats so they can 'leak' it and discredit them
-- snoop on business dealings to get an advantage for their buddies like Haliburton
-- then there's always the odd chance that they'll stumble across a real terrorist talking on the phone. Only problem is, as alluded to above, a discussion like the one we're having here could contain enough trigger words to make them think we might be terrorists, and then in they come, boots-a-kicking, and drag us off to grill us until we cave and admit we're members of Al-Queda just so they'll stop the interrogation. Then they trot this 'great victory over terrorism' out for the media and GWB will bask in the adulation of the masses with his usual smarmy grin on his face.

Think it can't happen? Ask the German peoples of 1932 if they thought they were voting in a dictatorial lunatic when they gave the nazi party the largest number of seats in the country.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 04:10 AM
Maybe I'm too young for this discussion, but no human being, Geroge Bush included, uses THAT much time to tap into random people's phone conversations for 'politics'.

You are correct. (as to the amount of time involved for an individual to do all this) But GWB isn't doing it by himself. He has a mass of Federal employees and agencies to do it for him. They have all the time in the world if that is their sole assignment.

Now, I am not going to actually say that Bush is tapping phones for political purposes since I have no outright proof. However, if he wanted to do it, he could.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 04:24 AM
Maybe I'm too young for this discussion,
Not at all, friend. You are as entitled to your views as the rest of us are to ours.

aadams73
02-01-2006, 04:24 AM
Well, guess who's on TV tonight? You guessed it, George Dubya.

So the question is: Will you be watching?

No, I have to floss my cat.

It used to be that I could make fun of Chimp Boy when he spoke...alas now he makes me want to vomit.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 04:28 AM
No, I have to floss my cat.


My cat needs a good flossing as well.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 04:31 AM
I'd be peeing blood.

katiemac
02-01-2006, 04:36 AM
I'll be watching. I was interested in doing so anyway, but then it was made into an assignment for one of my courses this afternoon, so that sort of sealed the deal.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 04:41 AM
I'd be peeing blood.
From watching the State of the Bunion, or from attempting to floss your cat? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 04:44 AM
i don't want to piss on anyone's paranoid fantasies, and i will say for the record that i am against warrantless wiretapping (though that everyone freely accepts that a FISA warrant for anyone, any time, can be rubberstamped within 72 hours under the "legal" version of all this is no less concverning to me).

but we do understand that we're not talking about men in black out on your telephone pole listening to you gossip about how the neighbor's fvcking the poolboy, right?

all of my research and reading on this topic seems to indicate that it's basically a big electronic apparatus that scans communications for certain keywords. i'm not saying that's any better, but from reading this thread, some of you people are two or three posts away from looking for agent mike over your shoulder everytime you go out for groceries.

katiemac
02-01-2006, 04:52 AM
all of my research and reading on this topic seems to indicate that it's basically a big electronic apparatus that scans communications for certain keywords. i'm not saying that's any better, but from reading this thread, some of you people are two or three posts away from looking for agent mike over your shoulder everytime you go out for groceries.

Isn't this what Echelon does? Or maybe I'm confusing technologies.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 04:58 AM
it's basically the same thing. ironically enough, when clinton was using echelon, it was the right complaining about the loss of civil liberties and the left saying it was no big deal.

americans are so bitterly partisan that it makes me want to retch.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 05:00 AM
Exactly, Katie. That's what most of us were referring to when talking about the government listening in. We know they don't have a big room buried under the White House filled with thousands of dweebs with pocket protectors and headphones on. *lifts corner of rug to look for tell-tale signs of a trap door*

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 05:07 AM
Keywords? Like Bomb Jihad hijack nuclear assassination torture infidel anthrax Bush?

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 05:15 AM
this ought to liven things up.

http://www.nbc11.com/news/6634368/detail.html

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 05:15 AM
Oh Ray, somebody's here to see you.... *cue disco music*



"I hear you've been a naughty boy, Ray...."

http://bestsmileys.com/cops/4.gif

Peggy
02-01-2006, 05:15 AM
I hope all of you have had a hearty dinner, so you are ready to play the State of the Union drinking game (http://www.drinkinggame.us/).

*lifts corner of rug to look for tell-tale signs of a trap door*Silly Chunky, everyone knows that they come in through the attic.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 05:20 AM
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif ...2 if he pronounces it properly....http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emoterofl5.gif

special needs
02-01-2006, 05:28 AM
Oh God....what do we get out of mindlessly insulting someone we do not know and who has tried his best for our Nation---and who, by the way, WE put into office?

rhymegirl
02-01-2006, 05:29 AM
Ummm....gee, all this discussion when all I did was ask are you gonna watch the State of the Union tonight.

What if I had asked are you gonna watch Fear Factor tonight?

special needs
02-01-2006, 05:31 AM
I do not understand why anyone does the things those people do for that miniscule amount of money... :rant:




.... :D

rhymegirl
02-01-2006, 05:37 AM
I do not understand why anyone does the things those people do for that miniscule amount of money... :rant:




.... :D

I gotta agree with you there. Eating bugs? Being covered by bugs? You'd have to pay me a WHOLE LOT MORE than 50,000 dollars for that.

special needs
02-01-2006, 05:41 AM
What about American Idol? I think the most recent girl got the wrong idea from the whole 'i like big butts' line in the song... :D

On a side note, I'll never admit this again, so you can use it as blackmail, but I find Ryan Seacreast at least mildly attractive...

robeiae
02-01-2006, 05:43 AM
Ummm....gee, all this discussion when all I did was ask are you gonna watch the State of the Union tonight.

Troublemaker. :D

From June, 2005.

Ryhmegirl asks an innocent question. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=237020&postcount=1)

Several days later, rhymegirl innocently notes this (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=263486&postcount=49).

At least the analyis has improved substantially.

Rob :)

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 05:47 AM
I gotta agree with you there. Eating bugs? Being covered by bugs? You'd have to pay me a WHOLE LOT MORE than 50,000 dollars for that.

I'll eat bugs for nothing.

Shwebb
02-01-2006, 06:14 AM
Hush! His lips are moving! I think he's trying to say something!

robeiae
02-01-2006, 06:20 AM
What, Ray's lips are moving in his avatar? I don't see it...

special needs
02-01-2006, 06:21 AM
Dear God....leave the guy alone...:mad:

Shwebb
02-01-2006, 06:25 AM
Jeezee cow! I meant the President's! *giggle*

special needs
02-01-2006, 06:31 AM
Jeezee cow! I meant the President's! *giggle*

Stoppit! This is horrible....

Peggy
02-01-2006, 06:33 AM
You guys will have to let me know if our fearless leader says anything important - my hubby insists on watching a recording of last week's Stargate instead. He seems to think the important bits will be on the news later.
What, Ray's lips are moving in his avatar? I don't see it...
Jeezee cow! I meant the President's! *giggle* Have you ever seen Ray's avatar and the President in the same room? Think about it.

Shwebb
02-01-2006, 06:34 AM
Seriously, SN, please allow just a little levity here.

Regardless of whether I like Bush and/or what he's done, I think he does merit some respect due the office he holds. (That's not going to stop me from making a few light-hearted jokes, though.)

(Will SOMEbody please tell him how to pronounce "nuclear?")

special needs
02-01-2006, 06:36 AM
But why? They're mindless and condescending.


Edit: Not to mention he's gotten farther than you in life, so he must have something over you....:)

Sarita
02-01-2006, 06:43 AM
(Will SOMEbody please tell him how to pronounce "nuclear?") Even his wife knocked him for it in a roast last year.

special needs
02-01-2006, 06:46 AM
And a question....I have a speech impedement and therefore don't talk much... when I do talk its to someone very close to me. If you listened to me talk would you make fun of me like that? Does the fact that I'm not well spoken mean that I'm dumb? Please tell me if it does, I'd really like to know....

SC Harrison
02-01-2006, 06:49 AM
And a question....I have a speech impedement and therefore don't talk much... when I do talk its to someone very close to me. If you listened to me talk would you make fun of me like that?

If you were President Special, probably so. And besides, he doesn't have a speech impediment, he has a brain impediment. Two totally different things.

special needs
02-01-2006, 06:51 AM
That's ridiculous and incredibly insulting... wow.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 06:54 AM
Oh God....what do we get out of mindlessly insulting someone we do not know and who has tried his best for our Nation---and who, by the way, WE put into office?

Actually, I disagree. I believe he doesn't care diddly squat about this nation, and only cares about power and money and does what Daddy and his friends tell him to do.

And, WE didn't put him into office. It was stolen, rigged, ripped off, etc. Unless you are a crooked judge in Florida, or you worked in the polling areas, turing away minorities trying to vote, you didn't put him into office either.

I voted for Gore - I was in a majority.

special needs
02-01-2006, 06:55 AM
I'm removing myself from the argument and these boards. Wow. You have no idea how much that hurts. You know, if he's dumb, I can't tell you how dumb I feel. It really, really hurts.

robeiae
02-01-2006, 06:56 AM
If you were President Special, probably so. And besides, he doesn't have a speech impediment, he has a brain impediment. Two totally different things.
Unlike the more highly skilled thinkers in the opposition: Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Harry Reed, etc. Cheap insults like that play better on a bumper stickers, so they can cater to other members of the uninformed.

Rob :)

Shwebb
02-01-2006, 06:57 AM
Come now, SN--you edited your previous statement, changing the meaning of everyone's responses.

I'm sorry you're finding this thread to be that upsetting to you. Maybe you would like to start a new one instead of bashing us over a bit of silliness.

I'd post it in the "TIO" forum, though. :)

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 07:01 AM
But why? They're mindless and condescending.


We've been making fun of presidents since the beginning of time. Get with the program.

When the next Democrat becomes president, you, too, can make fun of him/her all you want.

Isn't that fun?

eldragon
02-01-2006, 07:08 AM
It's a threadkiller.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:08 AM
Even though our economy is worse than ever


That is a silly statement with absolutely no merit.

And speaking of my way, we are sure winning the war on terror."


yeah...we are...so what's your point?



:rant:

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:09 AM
Unless you are a crooked judge in Florida.

That is actually what I want to be when I grow up.

Shwebb
02-01-2006, 07:12 AM
I consider myself an Independent, so I'm an equal-opportunity heckler.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:13 AM
There's a lot of speculation on your part --

Repeat after me: "George W. Bush is a lousy President."


I'll quote you.

There's a lot of speculation on your part -- And a lot of opinion.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:14 AM
Everyone repeat after me: "BradyH for Chief Justice....."

rhymegirl
02-01-2006, 07:16 AM
Troublemaker. :D

From June, 2005.

Rhymegirl asks an innocent question. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=237020&postcount=1)

Several days later, rhymegirl innocently notes this (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=263486&postcount=49).

At least the analyis has improved substantially.

Rob :)

Thank you, Rob for pointing out my troublemaking contributions. It really was an innocent question both times. And for what it's worth, I didn't watch tonight. But I heard my husband laughing a lot.

robeiae
02-01-2006, 07:16 AM
Everyone repeat after me: "BradyH for Chief Justice....."
I wouldn't mind you being Chief Justice, so long as you run all your decisions by me for approval...

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:17 AM
I am embarrassed that Tim Kaine is the governor of the state I call home. (Although I don't live there anymore)

eldragon
02-01-2006, 07:17 AM
One Team, Winning the war on terror is like winning the war on bad smells, it's impossible to do.



Just the sentence "The war on terror." makes me feel like laughing. Who invented that ridiculous line, anyway?


Let's win the war on ignorance.
Let's win the war on obesity.
Let's win the war on anger.
Let's win the war on humor.
Let's win the war on nepatism.
Let's win the war on favoritism.
Let's win the war on alcoholism.



"The war on terrori is spread too thin. There are terrorists everywhere, even here in the U.S. They don't wear matching outfits or uniforms."

How can we kill all of them?

How can you win a war like that? It makes no sense. You have to have boundaries.

tiny
02-01-2006, 07:18 AM
I don't know about living in a world where Brady and Robeiae are in charge. Gives me a really bad feeling.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 07:21 AM
But I heard my husband laughing a lot. Rhymegirl - I'm not sure that's the effect W was looking for, but hey, whatever works.

Peggy
02-01-2006, 07:21 AM
I'm removing myself from the argument and these boards. Wow. You have no idea how much that hurts. You know, if he's dumb, I can't tell you how dumb I feel. It really, really hurts.Special , I'm sorry you are taking this so personally. It's a longstanding tradition to make fun of the President - any President. This has been happening since Presidents were invented and it is one of the great things about being an American. There are places in the world where you can be thrown in prison for mocking the person in power, so we should appreciate the rights we have.

Of course the characterizations of Bush aren't always fair. Again, par for the course. Grant wasn't drunk all the time. Ford didn't always fall down the stairs. Clinton didn't really have a fling with every female he met. And no, I don't think Bush is really stupid. I do think he isn't a very good speechmaker, particularly when he talks "off the cuff". Since the ability to orate is one of the things we expect of the President, his ability to speak is fair game. Also, I do think he is playing to the anti-intellectual crowd, and intentially plays up his mispronunciations, trying to make people forget he attended a fancy New England boarding school and Yale.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:26 AM
Special , I'm sorry you are taking this so personally. It's a longstanding tradition to make fun of the President - any President. This has been happening since Presidents were invented and it is one of the great things about being an American. There are places in the world where you can be thrown in prison for mocking the person in power, so we should appreciate the rights we have.

Of course the characterizations of Bush aren't always fair. Again, par for the course. Grant wasn't drunk all the time. Ford didn't always fall down the stairs. Clinton didn't really have a fling with every female he met. And no, I don't think Bush is really stupid. I do think he isn't a very good speechmaker, particularly when he talks "off the cuff". Since the ability to orate is one of the things we expect of the President, his ability to speak is fair game. Also, I do think he is playing to the anti-intellectual crowd, and intentially plays up his mispronunciations, trying to make people forget he attended a fancy New England boarding school and Yale.


Actually, if Bush is trying to read a speech, he tries to "ad-lib" and screws up. If he is just talking....(for example the Town Hall debate where he demolished Kerry) he is actually very personable and somewhat well spoken. (I can pretty much guarantee you I've watched more Bush speeches than anyone else here) When he has a speech in front of him, he either needs to read it, or chuck it.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:28 AM
Clinton didn't really have a fling with every female he met.


Are you sure? (See Special, its easy, you can give and take)

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:28 AM
I don't know about living in a world where Brady and Robeiae are in charge. Gives me a really bad feeling.

What? Do you fear the judicially administered mandatory morning spankings or something?

tiny
02-01-2006, 07:33 AM
What? Do you fear the judicially administered mandatory morning spankings or something?

It's not the spankings, it's the 'or something'.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:34 AM
:D

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 07:48 AM
There's a lot of speculation on your part -- And a lot of opinion.

Of course. I never said anything to the contrary. ;) My opinion of Bush is strictly my opinion -- I have said that a million times already. I think only future historians can tell us if Bush is indeed great (as many believe so), competent, mediocre, or lousy -- but as an American, I am glad and proud that I can come on here and say, "Bush is a lousy president" without worrying about going to jail. Now, before someone says, "Ray, you're just a Democrat ***-kisser..." I can assure you that I dislike the current crop of Democrats just as much as I dislike Bush and the current crop of GOPs. I used to like McCain. Not anymore -- I think he's lost a spine somewhere...

robeiae
02-01-2006, 07:50 AM
Ray, you're just a...published author?

Rob :)

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:50 AM
I am glad and proud that I can come on here and say, "Bush is a lousy president" without worrying about going to jail..

That will change, of course, when I am Chief Justice.

tiny
02-01-2006, 07:51 AM
That will change, of course, when I am Chief Justice.


I warned you all. But did you listen? No.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:52 AM
Of course. I never said anything to the contrary. ;) My opinion of Bush is strictly my opinion -- I have said that a million times already. I think only future historians can tell us if Bush is indeed great (as many believe so), competent, mediocre, or lousy -- but as an American, I am glad and proud that I can come on here and say, "Bush is a lousy president" without worrying about going to jail. Now, before someone says, "Ray, you're just a Democrat ***-kisser..." I can assure you that I dislike the current crop of Democrats just as much as I dislike Bush and the current crop of GOPs. I used to like McCain. Not anymore -- I think he's lost a spine somewhere...

Ray we've been down this road before. I know you aren't a mindless Democratic sheep. Just as I believe you know I'm not a mindless Republican sheep. I am, however, a Republican. I too am proud I was able to say that from 1992-2000 and not be arrested etc.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:53 AM
I warned you all. But did you listen? No.

You might want to go ahead and change your name and relocate. You have nothing to fear from me, but I cannot speak for my Associate Justice Rob.

robeiae
02-01-2006, 07:54 AM
And if anyone is questioning Brady's qualifications, he'll be happy to show you his briefs.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 07:55 AM
Chris, I am not even a Democrat. I trump you! :)

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:56 AM
And if anyone is questioning Brady's qualifications, he'll be happy to show you his briefs.

Indeed.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:56 AM
Chris, I am not even a Democrat. I trump you! :)

I know. That's why I clarified the fact that I AM a Republican.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 07:57 AM
And if anyone is questioning Brady's qualifications, he'll be happy to show you his briefs.

They call him Pinocchio.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:57 AM
I can't decide if I am a Demican or a Republocrat.

robeiae
02-01-2006, 07:58 AM
I'm a tad Whiggy.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 07:59 AM
I'm a tad Whiggy.

I'm a Wgid Taddy.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 07:59 AM
I'm a Houseoflover, aka HOL.

Join the HOL party! The purple velvet road leads THAT way...

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 08:01 AM
I'm a Houseoflover, aka HOL.

Join the HOL party! The purple velvet road leads THAT way...


.....ride the snake.

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 08:04 AM
How does Nancy Pelosi sleep at night?


Republican or Democrat, you have to admit she is clueless.....almost as bad as Kennedy.
I wonder if the liberal news channels hold up her cue cards for her?

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 08:07 AM
I am curious about one thing. Are we going to bring "freedom" and "liberty" to our Saudi allies? Considering they live in a fundamentalist country with a repressive government, shouldn't they also be "liberated"?

I don't think anyone could deny that they support terror too.

Personally, I think we should make the French give up their nukes. They wouldn't use them anyway. They would surrender them to the Germans at the first opportunity!

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 08:08 AM
How does Nancy Pelosi sleep at night?


Naked, most likely.

robeiae
02-01-2006, 08:08 AM
How does Nancy Pelosi sleep at night?
She has a Books-on-Tape cassette, featuring Josef Stalin reading "The Three Little Proletariats."

Rob :)

OneTeam OneDream
02-01-2006, 08:09 AM
The Democrats did this.....The Republicans did this......here is an idea....how about instead of fighting each other they fight for the American people.


The Republicans come up with ideas and the Democrats shoot them down simply because the Republicans came up with them, and in some cases, vice versa.....why not do what is best??.....oh.....because they don't give two shits.

Here is an idea Dems....if you don't like it....come up with an idea. When is the last time that has happened?


(Sorry to put this thread back on topic, but Nancy Pelosi is probably the most negative person I've ever seen. Its all bash bash bash, how about you come up with something then.)

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 08:10 AM
She has a Books-on-Tape cassette, featuring Josef Stalin reading "The Three Little Proletariats."

Rob :)

Personally I listen to "Ted Kennedy's Greatest Hits".

Or is it "Ted Kennedy's Greatest Accidents".......I forget.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 08:24 AM
Did you mean Ted Kennedy's greatest tits?

aadams73
02-01-2006, 02:05 PM
I'm removing myself from the argument and these boards. Wow. You have no idea how much that hurts. You know, if he's dumb, I can't tell you how dumb I feel. It really, really hurts.

Oh hush now, no need to get all Polly Pissy Pants over this. If it upsets you just move on to all of the other lovely topics. Religion and politics are the two things no group of people will ever agree on. And that doesn't make us bad.

Shadow_Ferret
02-01-2006, 05:09 PM
I voted for Gore - I was in a majority.

You were in the majority in that you voted for one of TWO losers. Didn't really matter which one we got stuck with.

Cripes. Those were the best two the parties had to offer us? That's a sad commentary on the entire political system in this country.

SC Harrison
02-01-2006, 05:24 PM
Oh hush now, no need to get all Polly Pissy Pants over this.

Thanks a lot. I was fine until I read this; now I have to go to the bathroom.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 06:58 PM
note to RNC... make campaign commercials where bush says that congress failed to act on social security reform and the democrats gave a standing ovation to their own obstructionism.

note to DNC... shoot cindy sheehan in the neck with a tranquilizer dart anytime she gets too close to any official function where she can embarrass you.

note to eldragon... the stolen election meme is weakening the dems' prospects of ever controlling the congress or white house in your lifetime. i know self-pity and anger feel good, but they don't alter policy.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 07:05 PM
I'm so suprised! I was expecting a bunch of Bush bashing this morning. I guess it's probably because most of the people on this board are educated people. Most of the Bush bashing comes from band wagoners, pot smoking hippies, tree huggers who have probably never served under the flag or even voted! I'm tired of the sheep. Bravo!

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 07:12 PM
note to eldragon... the stolen election meme is weakening the dems' prospects of ever controlling the congress or white house in your lifetime. i know self-pity and anger feel good, but they don't alter policy.

I agree. Whiners are not winners. The problem with the current crop of Democrats is that they're all cry babies. "We were robbed." I'd say, suck it up and do something about it. Come up with something that actually makes sense. Make people think: "Hmmm, your solution does sound so much better. We're dumping the old flame..." Nobody likes whiners.

It seems though, that the Republicans are starting whine a lot, too.

So we have crooks on one hand, and weeners on the other. Which to choose. Which to choose.

maestrowork
02-01-2006, 07:13 PM
I'm so suprised! I was expecting a bunch of Bush bashing this morning. I guess it's probably because most of the people on this board are educated people. Most of the Bush bashing comes from band wagoners, pot smoking hippies, tree huggers who have probably never served under the flag or even voted! I'm tired of the sheep. Bravo!

Probably because nobody watched. ;)

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 07:16 PM
Probably because nobody watched. ;)

You could be right. Everyone has a right to an opinion. If you are going to present your opinion to others you should be informed. That is exactly why I watched last night.

A little side note....You don't have to like the man but respect the office. I couldn't stand Clinton. When I was assigned to do security for his motorcade some years back I was still honored to meet him. I didn't agree with his politics or disgracing the oval office with the BJ's he got there on the tax payers dime. I respected him because he was the President. That is a major achievement.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 07:21 PM
I watched.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 08:10 PM
I agree. Whiners are not winners. The problem with the current crop of Democrats is that they're all cry babies. "We were robbed." I'd say, suck it up and do something about it. Come up with something that actually makes sense. Make people think: "Hmmm, your solution does sound so much better. We're dumping the old flame..." Nobody likes whiners.


I'm not exactly obsessed with the topic. I'll do what I can do, vote against the next Republican candidate.


What is the current crop of democrats? My mom is 65 years old and hardly a new crop of anything. But she is so disgusted by Bush, she goes on for extended lengths of time. She just happens to be married to a man who is as right-winged as a person can get.

My husband and I agree politically, so the conversation doesn't come up that much.

We're all adults and nobody is whining, really.


Speaking of overcoming things in my lifetime, does anyone think the $300 billion deficit will be overcome in their lifetime?


I also think anyone slamming Cindy Sheehan needs to walk a mile her her shoes. Who wants to trade? Sign your kids up now!

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 08:11 PM
So we have crooks on one hand, and weeners on the other. Which to choose. Which to choose.
Similar deal up here. In the recent election we just went through, we had a governing party (the Liberals, with a minority) whose overall policies I agree with, but who were embroiled in scandal after scandal and who kept shooting themselves in the foot all through the election, and an opposition (Conservatives) who blocked every meaningful attempt at getting the business of running the country done so that they could topple the Liberals and force an election nobody wanted ... and who, upon winning the election with a similar minority to the Liberals, said "I hope the other parties will work with us to get things done...."

GAH! Why isn't there a NONE OF THE ABOVE option on the ballot?

PS -- to clarify the minority government thing a bit....

We have four major political parties. Therefore, one party can win the most seats in an election and form the government, but still have less than 50% of the total seats. Therefore, the remaining parties can gang up on the governing party and defeat bills, etc. and even call for a vote of confidence in the government. If the government loses this vote, they are obligated to call an election. This is is what was done recently to topple the Liberals who had been in power for well over a decade.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 08:15 PM
I'm not exactly obsessed with the topic. I'll do what I can do, vote against the next Republican candidate.


What is the current crop of democrats? My mom is 65 years old and hardly a new crop of anything. But she is so disgusted by Bush, she goes on for extended lengths of time. She just happens to be married to a man who is as right-winged as a person can get.

My husband and I agree politically, so the conversation doesn't come up that much.

We're all adults and nobody is whining, really.


Speaking of overcoming things in my lifetime, does anyone think the $300 billion deficit will be overcome in their lifetime?


I also think anyone slamming Cindy Sheehan needs to walk a mile her her shoes. Who wants to trade? Sign your kids up now!

Speaking as a veteran of the 2nd Gulf War. Her son knew what he was signing up for. I'm sure he is rolling over in his grave right now on how his mother has made a spectical of his death. He served his country well and made the ultimate sacrafice. It's very disturbing hearing her say her son's death was for nothing. It's quite easy for someone that wasn't there and haven't seen what we are doing for those people to say that.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 08:18 PM
Speaking of overcoming things in my lifetime, does anyone think the $300 billion deficit will be overcome in their lifetime?

absolutely. reagan's record deficit was overcome within a decade.




I also think anyone slamming Cindy Sheehan needs to walk a mile her her shoes. Who wants to trade? Sign your kids up now!


walk in them where? to a code pink rally? to protest the US on foreign soil alongside a belligerent leader?

eldragon
02-01-2006, 08:26 PM
Most of the Bush bashing comes from band wagoners, pot smoking hippies, tree huggers who have probably never served under the flag or even voted! I'm tired of the sheep. Bravo!


Pot smoking hippies? What year is this, anyway?


I'm a tree hugger with the best of them, and have voted every election since I turned 18 .........and I'm 42 now.


I'll never understand why caring about the world we live in is considered weak. "Environment" is a bad word. Let's just kill everything off. It's all here for our pleasure, right? Keep telling yourself that and continue to order fish at your favorite restaurant.

You want to know what makes me mad? The fact that 'patriotism' is a bad word now. I have been against the IRAQ war since before it happened. Of course I
support the troops who are dying over there. I know they are there because they have to be, and that their intentions are good. The US soldiers are usually the good guys, and deserve all the support they can get.

If you ask me, it's our president who doesn't give a rats *** about the soldiers. Who are American soldiers to him, anyway? They are bodies in bags. They are targets who came between the oil money and the "insurgents."

Did Bush ever fight a useless war? Heck no! Are his daughters fighting for this country? NO WAY! Why not?

Because the military is made of the poorest people in America.
These people just want a job, possibly some college tuition.


Instead, 2243 of them are dead. Those aren't just numbers, those are people. Husbands, sons, brothers, fathers, wives, daughter's and sisters.



For what?

eldragon
02-01-2006, 08:30 PM
Speaking as a veteran of the 2nd Gulf War. Her son knew what he was signing up for. I'm sure he is rolling over in his grave right now on how his mother has made a spectical of his death. He served his country well and made the ultimate sacrafice. It's very disturbing hearing her say her son's death was for nothing. It's quite easy for someone that wasn't there and haven't seen what we are doing for those people to say that.


You're speaking as a surviving veteran of the Gulf War. You didn't die there. If you had died there, what would you have missed out on?

Looking back, would your death have been worth it?


Maybe Sheehan wanted something else for her son. If you want what her son got, sign your kids up.


Go ahead, there are plenty of open positions.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 08:36 PM
Because the military is made of the poorest people in America.
These people just want a job, possibly some college tuition.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-27-soldier-edit_x.htm

Enlistees have always come from rural areas. Yet a new study, reported in The Washington Post earlier this month, suggests that higher enlistment rates in rural counties are new, implying a poorer military. They err by drawing conclusions from a non-random sample of a few counties, a statistically cloaked anecdote. The only accurate way to assess military demographics is to consider all recruits.

If, for example, we consider the education of every recruit, 98% joined with high-school diplomas or better. By comparison, 75% of the general population meets that standard. Among all three-digit ZIP code areas in the USA in 2003 (one can study larger areas by isolating just the first three digits of ZIP codes), not one had a higher graduation rate among civilians than among its recruits.

In fact, since the 9/11 attacks, more volunteers have emerged from the middle and upper classes and fewer from the lowest-income groups. In 1999, both the highest fifth of the nation in income and the lowest fifth were slightly underrepresented among military volunteers. Since 2001, enlistments have increased in the top two-fifths of income levels but have decreased among the lowest fifth.

Allegations that recruiters are disproportionately targeting blacks also don't hold water. First, whites make up 77.4% of the nation's population and 75.8% of its military volunteers, according to our analysis of Department of Defense data.

Second, we explored the 100 three-digit ZIP code areas with the highest concentration of blacks, which range from 24.1% black up to 68.6%. These areas, which account for 14.6% of the adult population, produced 16.6% of recruits in 1999 and only 14.1% in 2003.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 08:37 PM
Pot smoking hippies? What year is this, anyway?


I'm a tree hugger with the best of them, and have voted every election since I turned 18 .........and I'm 42 now.


I'll never understand why caring about the world we live in is considered weak. "Environment" is a bad word. Let's just kill everything off. It's all here for our pleasure, right? Keep telling yourself that and continue to order fish at your favorite restaurant.

You want to know what makes me mad? The fact that 'patriotism' is a bad word now. I have been against the IRAQ war since before it happened. Of course I
support the troops who are dying over there. I know they are there because they have to be, and that their intentions are good. The US soldiers are usually the good guys, and deserve all the support they can get.

If you ask me, it's our president who doesn't give a rats *** about the soldiers. Who are American soldiers to him, anyway? They are bodies in bags. They are targets who came between the oil money and the "insurgents."

Did Bush ever fight a useless war? Heck no! Are his daughters fighting for this country? NO WAY! Why not?

Because the military is made of the poorest people in America.
These people just want a job, possibly some college tuition.


Instead, 2243 of them are dead. Those aren't just numbers, those are people. Husbands, sons, brothers, fathers, wives, daughter's and sisters.



For what?

Perhaps the term "Tree hugger" was a mistake to use. There is nothing wrong about caring about the environment. I take offense to you saying that our President doesn't care about our troops. I have 0 doubt in my mind that he cares and stays awake at night thinking about it. I had no doubt in my mind that Clinton cared about the troops even though he cut our defense budget in half offered early outs and cut our military force by 50% while he deployed our military to more conflicts (police actions) then any other President in US history.

BTW, I was a Husband, Son, Brother and Father while I served in the war. I guess since I wasn't killed my opinion doesn't matter, right? Why is it that when a soldier speaks out he is spoken to like he doesn't know what he is talking about? Most Americans only know what the media tells them. You guys are so programed to beleive that you could care less what a soldier that has been there and done that has to say about anything.

Sheryl Nantus
02-01-2006, 08:38 PM
well, she *did* offer to drive him to Canada and let him sit out the war up there... oh, wait, they're kicking them BACK to the US since there's no draft.

considering her mother just had a stroke recently you'd think she'd be more concerned with taking care of her living family than doing stunts like this.

as for "signing your kids up" - last time I checked each and every one of the peeps in the military actually were of legal age and volunteered to serve their country - my hubby did his time to get use of the GI Bill and served in Panama, Grenada and the First Gulf War - and never kvetches a bit about it. He knew what he was signing up for and when they sent him into battle he didn't whine about how he disagreed with the reasons, etc.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 08:40 PM
You're speaking as a surviving veteran of the Gulf War. You didn't die there. If you had died there, what would you have missed out on?

Looking back, would your death have been worth it?


Maybe Sheehan wanted something else for her son. If you want what her son got, sign your kids up.


Go ahead, there are plenty of open positions.

You don't sign your kids up. They sign their self up. It's their decision to make. Why is it that it's all fine and dandy to the parents when their kids enlist during peace time but when it's time to actually do their duty they object. Do you think all we are supposed to do is play guns? This is serious business.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 08:42 PM
I also think anyone slamming Cindy Sheehan needs to walk a mile her her shoes. Who wants to trade? Sign your kids up now!


walk in them where? to a code pink rally? to protest the US on foreign soil alongside a belligerent leader?


William, it's a figure of speech. I mean, let your kids be heroes and give the "ultimate sacrifice," AKA their lives for this war.

It's an honor. Oh, sure, your kids might be hoping to do something else, like be pro baseball players, or mechanics or a doctor or computer programmer.


I'd give my life for this country, too. But, I'm hoping it doesn't come down to that.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 08:43 PM
it's a talking point, RwC. nothing more.

people like pam wax philosophic about utopia, but lack the fortitude to confront evil, even when it's staring them right in the face.

how they think that equation can ever resolve itself, i have no idea.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 08:45 PM
William, it's a figure of speech. I mean, let your kids be heroes and give the "ultimate sacrifice," AKA their lives for this war.

It's an honor. Oh, sure, your kids might be hoping to do something else, like be pro baseball players, or mechanics or a doctor or computer programmer.


I'd give my life for this country, too. But, I'm hoping it doesn't come down to that.

first off my kids are 14 and 7, so kindly shut the f#ck up about signing them up.

cindy sheehan had my sympathy as a grieving mother. as a useful idiot for radical groups at home and belligerent leaders abroad, she disgusts me.

she likes to talk about how casey died for her right to speak out. well, he died for that right on my part, too.

so f#ck cindy. that clear enough for ya?

Sheryl Nantus
02-01-2006, 08:54 PM
I'd give my life for this country, too. But, I'm hoping it doesn't come down to that.

somehow I doubt that - see, you'd want to get in on the major decisions from the bottom up, discuss them to death and then see if you could negotiate anything else.

well, that's what the leaders of the country do, see... that's their job.

you, the soldier, take orders and go where you're told to go. You don't get to decide which wars are worth your time and effort and which ones you don't think are the "right" ones.

my husband still regrets that they didn't take out Saddam in 1991 - and he didn't ask to go to Panama or Grenada. In the long view it really didn't make that big a difference but he didn't stand back and dispute his orders - he went and did his duty.

I doubt you'd be as brave as my husband or the thousands who have served before and after him.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 08:58 PM
BTW, I was a Husband, Son, Brother and Father while I served in the war. I guess since I wasn't killed my opinion doesn't matter, right? Why is it that when a soldier speaks out he is spoken to like he doesn't know what he is talking about? Most Americans only know what the media tells them. You guys are so programed to beleive that you could care less what a soldier that has been there and done that has to say about anything.


I am not programmed to believe anything. And, I know about 10 military families personally, right now.


In fact, I just saved a Navy man's kids from being picked up by Department of Childrens Services last Friday. This man is a neighbor from around the corner. Hurricane Katrina tore up the water lines in his yard, and he has NO WATER on his property since August 29th. Being a full time Navy man and single father to two little girls ages 6 and 11, he cannot afford the $9800. to fix the lines. FEMA won't help, insurance won't help. What that means is that his daughters are filthy dirty at school. Last Friday, this man's girlfriend called me to tell me that he was in the hospital (regular hospital, our navy base hospital is closed now,) with an appendicitis. She didn't have a car. I had to drive to the next town to pick up his kids. Then, I drove them home and when I was in his driveway, a car pulled behind me. It was DHS, with 3 officers, ready to take the girls to a foster home. I managed to keep them from entering the house by engaging them in conversation, and by promising to let the girls take showers at my house, which they have been doing since December 17th, anyway. (I just met the family December 10th, and while I was in Europe for over 2 weeks in December, I gave them my housekeys to stay here.) I explained to the officers that the man had no water because he is a single father, making slave wages in the navy, and about FEMa and insurance. They let me take responsibility for the girls, and they spent the weekend at our house.

Not that this has much to do with the debate at hand, but this navy guy is a big BUSH supporter. He's also an idiot who is going to lose his kids and probably should. He is expecting an insurance check to fix the roof on his house, and he's going to fix his Harley with it instead. Meanwhile, his kids are filthy, have few clothes, live in a home without water, and up a mud driveway that the schoolbus cannot even manuever in, and all he says is "Let them come, I'm not worried." (About the department of Childrens services.) He's too stupid to be worried.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 09:01 PM
first off my kids are 14 and 7, so kindly shut the f#ck up about signing them up.

Maybe you can get a special pass for them.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 09:04 PM
I doubt you'd be as brave as my husband or the thousands who have served before and after him.


That's worth quoting.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 09:07 PM
somehow I doubt that - see, you'd want to get in on the major decisions from the bottom up, discuss them to death and then see if you could negotiate anything else.

well, that's what the leaders of the country do, see... that's their job.

you, the soldier, take orders and go where you're told to go. You don't get to decide which wars are worth your time and effort and which ones you don't think are the "right" ones.

my husband still regrets that they didn't take out Saddam in 1991 - and he didn't ask to go to Panama or Grenada. In the long view it really didn't make that big a difference but he didn't stand back and dispute his orders - he went and did his duty.

I doubt you'd be as brave as my husband or the thousands who have served before and after him.

Right on! Ft Clayton Panama was my first duty station after AIT. I loved it there. Your husband did a great job of getting Norieaga (sp?) out of office. That place is so much better now.

Here's a picture of me drinking ATLAS Beer (ask your hubby about that beer!) on the island of Contadora which is part of Panama. lol

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 09:09 PM
I am not programmed to believe anything. And, I know about 10 military families personally, right now.


In fact, I just saved a Navy man's kids from being picked up by Department of Childrens Services last Friday. This man is a neighbor from around the corner. Hurricane Katrina tore up the water lines in his yard, and he has NO WATER on his property since August 29th. Being a full time Navy man and single father to two little girls ages 6 and 11, he cannot afford the $9800. to fix the lines. FEMA won't help, insurance won't help. What that means is that his daughters are filthy dirty at school. Last Friday, this man's girlfriend called me to tell me that he was in the hospital (regular hospital, our navy base hospital is closed now,) with an appendicitis. She didn't have a car. I had to drive to the next town to pick up his kids. Then, I drove them home and when I was in his driveway, a car pulled behind me. It was DHS, with 3 officers, ready to take the girls to a foster home. I managed to keep them from entering the house by engaging them in conversation, and by promising to let the girls take showers at my house, which they have been doing since December 17th, anyway. (I just met the family December 10th, and while I was in Europe for over 2 weeks in December, I gave them my housekeys to stay here.) I explained to the officers that the man had no water because he is a single father, making slave wages in the navy, and about FEMa and insurance. They let me take responsibility for the girls, and they spent the weekend at our house.

Not that this has much to do with the debate at hand, but this navy guy is a big BUSH supporter. He's also an idiot who is going to lose his kids and probably should. He is expecting an insurance check to fix the roof on his house, and he's going to fix his Harley with it instead. Meanwhile, his kids are filthy, have few clothes, live in a home without water, and up a mud driveway that the schoolbus cannot even manuever in, and all he says is "Let them come, I'm not worried." (About the department of Childrens services.) He's too stupid to be worried.

Great that you know military families. Does that make you more of an expert of what is going on there than someone that actually has been there?

eldragon
02-01-2006, 09:12 PM
Great that you know military families. Does that make you more of an expert of what is going on there than someone that actually has been there?

Did I say I was an expert?

I just spent two weeks in Serbia, but that doesn't make me an expert on the Bosnian war.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 09:13 PM
Did I say I was an expert?

I just spent two weeks in Serbia, but that doesn't make me an expert on the Bosnian war.

Considering you are a civilian I would have to agree with you on that one.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 09:13 PM
Anyone who volunteers to fight for their country deserves our respect and gratitude, whether they end up being deployed or not. They all go in knowing that call may come. My brother signed up and served for the better part of a decade, and that will always fill me with pride. Even when, at the time he went in, I was a card-carrying anti-military tree-hugging pot-smoking hippie, the sight of him in uniform was compelling. Now that I'm older and a little wiser, I regret every nasty thing I ever said to him about his joining the navy.

I should probably give him a buzz, it's been far too long since I've told him that.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 09:18 PM
I should probably give him a buzz, it's been far too long since I've told him that.

I highly recommend it. My brother has been dead for ten years, killed in a car accident. He was 29. I know what it's like to lose someone close. My brother and I did talk frequently, though, so at least I'm ok with that. He was a blues guitar player, killed on the road with his band.

SC Harrison
02-01-2006, 09:18 PM
Why is it that when a soldier speaks out he is spoken to like he doesn't know what he is talking about?

I hear you, man. If you support the war you're brainwashed, if you don't support the war you're a traitor to the military. I jumped out of planes for seven years for my country, traveled around the world several times, witnessed more pain, suffering, and cruelty than I want to remember. Yet, when I try to explain to people why I don't support the way the war is being prosecuted, and the possibility of more poorly-prosecuted military actions, people instantly label me and tune the rest out.

One thing I will say about "Regime Change" and/or "Nation-Building" is this: rarely do people follow the course you think they should. In the absence of a strong, widely accepted democratic ideal, the vacuum will be filled by something, and it will probably be worse (for our interests) than before.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 09:36 PM
I hear you, man. If you support the war you're brainwashed, if you don't support the war you're a traitor to the military. I jumped out of planes for seven years for my country, traveled around the world several times, witnessed more pain, suffering, and cruelty than I want to remember. Yet, when I try to explain to people why I don't support the way the war is being prosecuted, and the possibility of more poorly-prosecuted military actions, people instantly label me and tune the rest out.

One thing I will say about "Regime Change" and/or "Nation-Building" is this: rarely do people follow the course you think they should. In the absence of a strong, widely accepted democratic ideal, the vacuum will be filled by something, and it will probably be worse (for our interests) than before.

I agree with you. If you don't support the war than fine. That's your right. I only have a problem with people who think our soldiers deaths are for nothing. I for one took great pride in being part of liberating Iraq. Some say we are there for oil or for no reason at all. Ask someone there now what they are there for. Every soldier has a different opinion. But they all feel they are doing something good and it's worth fighting for. It's called freedom. I guess we have had it for so long we can't remember what it was like not to have it. People might call me brainwashed. I beg to differ. When I was deployed to Iraq I already had 11 years of being a MP under my belt. I had more than plenty of time to form my own opinion. These people who speak about death...do they know what it is and what it's really like? I don't know anything because I wasn't killed right? That's so BS. I was a SSG in Iraq. I commanded an entire squad. During our initial drive into Baghdad we were patrolling a MSR route and were ambushed. The vehicle in front of me was hit with a RPG and everyone in that vehicle was killed immediately. My vehicle received small arms fire at the same time. My SAW gunner and a PV2 in the back seat were killed during that ambush. I had to ride with both dead soldiers all the way back to our base camp. Then I had to drag them out of the vehicle and clean their guts out of my vehicle. Somehow I still think what we are doing over there is just. Again, I don't know what I am talking about. I let others that have sat in their comfortable homes whom have never served in the military and get all their information from the media tell me how it really is. BS!!!!!!!

eldragon
02-01-2006, 09:49 PM
These people who speak about death...do they know what it is and what it's really like?


I'm a hospice volunteer, and volunteer at a state run nursing home. I have witnessed lots of death. Have you ever seen someone die of AIDS? Because my friend Daryl Wellman, just died in December of AIDS. He was 42, like me. I was a close friend of his for 15 months, and with him at the end.

How about gunshot victims? My friend, Janice Byrd, was shot in the back of the head by her husband. It took her over 4 years to die. During those years, she lay in the nursing home bead, unable to talk, eat or even move. For over 3 of those years, she had NO visitors. I became close to Janice in October of 2004, and spent hours with her, trying to communicate and just cheer her up. She died just after the hurricane.


What about burn victims? Spent any time with any burn victims lately? My late friend, JOSE, was burned in an explosion in the hull of a ship ....40 years ago. He lost his fingers, toes, most of his face. He couldn't talk, eat, and was paralyzed. Between frequent heart attacks and strokes, Jose enjoyed wacking well meaning nurses with his stumps. Jose died after the storm, too.



No reason to go on.

I haven't been in the military, but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about death or suffering.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 09:56 PM
We who stay home should never disparage the individuals who follow the orders of their commander-in-chief. What we must do as citizens is hold our leaders responsible for making sure that when they give that order, it is just. We each have our role to play in our respective countries. That's why I pay attention to what's going on in our political system. That's why I get out and vote. That's why I write letters when my Member of Parliament does something I don't agree with, or worse (like the MP we have in our riding) does nothing. I mentioned upthread that we have the right and obligation to hold our leaders responsible for their actions.

When it comes to the military, I believe this is of paramount importance. Every citizen must do their part to make sure that when our forces are deployed and some will die, that it is for the right reasons. If there's anything we who are not in the military can do for those who are, this it it.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 10:07 PM
I too am an outspoken critic of the war and I have been since before it started. It puts me in a tough position. As a firefighter, I can assure you that the Bush Administration is the ONLY one who has ever really saw to it that we could receive federal funds for equipment. My department has benefited from a DHS grant. However, it took 350 of our brothers giving their lives for anyone to give a damn. Of all the governmental agencies, the NYFD bore the brunt of the non-civilian 9/11 casualties.

What good does it do if we "liberate" people overseas, yet leave the backdoor wide open at home. If Bush were serious about preventing terrorist attacks, he would do more than give us empty rhetoric about the borders. Hell, he has no problem with the Mexican Army violating our territory and threatening our peace officers in Texas. I have yet to hear any Bush supporter address this rather blatant hypocrisy.

When the next attack happens here (and it is a when and not if), my brothers and sisters in law enforcement, fire, and EMS will once again bear the brunt of the non-civilian casualties. That is something that we are prepared for. But we face those dangers every day. You are just as dead from a nuclear attack as you are if you are run over while working at an accident scene.

I work in close proximity to death. It is hovering over my shoulder every shift. Does it bother me? Not really. It is my wife who has to deal with the fact that when I walk out the door to work a shift, she might not see me again.

So do I know what death is and what it is really like? You are damn right I do. I've seen it caused by virtually everything imaginable. I've seen my best friend die. I've seen kids lying in a pool of blood, the innocent victims of a bullet. I've held a dying baby in my arms. I've crawled over the mangled bodies of teenagers to cut their friends out of the carange that a bad decision leads to. Drugs, alcohol, bullets, cars, machines, disease.....I've seen death caused by them all.

The military does not have a monopoly on the death industry.

Shadow_Ferret
02-01-2006, 10:14 PM
You know who disgusts me? Those self-serving jackasses who have the inconsiderate gall to protest outside of the funerals of our fallen soldiers. Have some respect. Show some compassion for the families.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 10:23 PM
You know who disgusts me? Those self-serving jackasses who have the inconsiderate gall to protest outside of the funerals of our fallen soldiers. Have some respect. Show some compassion for the families.

I agree. It isn't the fault of the soldiers. Have they learned nothing from Vietnam? Blame the government all you want. The soldiers are doing their job.

Royale With Cheese
02-01-2006, 10:24 PM
I too am an outspoken critic of the war and I have been since before it started. It puts me in a tough position. As a firefighter, I can assure you that the Bush Administration is the ONLY one who has ever really saw to it that we could receive federal funds for equipment. My department has benefited from a DHS grant. However, it took 350 of our brothers giving their lives for anyone to give a damn. Of all the governmental agencies, the NYFD bore the brunt of the non-civilian 9/11 casualties.

What good does it do if we "liberate" people overseas, yet leave the backdoor wide open at home. If Bush were serious about preventing terrorist attacks, he would do more than give us empty rhetoric about the borders. Hell, he has no problem with the Mexican Army violating our territory and threatening our peace officers in Texas. I have yet to hear any Bush supporter address this rather blatant hypocrisy.

When the next attack happens here (and it is a when and not if), my brothers and sisters in law enforcement, fire, and EMS will once again bear the brunt of the non-civilian casualties. That is something that we are prepared for. But we face those dangers every day. You are just as dead from a nuclear attack as you are if you are run over while working at an accident scene.

I work in close proximity to death. It is hovering over my shoulder every shift. Does it bother me? Not really. It is my wife who has to deal with the fact that when I walk out the door to work a shift, she might not see me again.

So do I know what death is and what it is really like? You are damn right I do. I've seen it caused by virtually everything imaginable. I've seen my best friend die. I've seen kids lying in a pool of blood, the innocent victims of a bullet. I've held a dying baby in my arms. I've crawled over the mangled bodies of teenagers to cut their friends out of the carange that a bad decision leads to. Drugs, alcohol, bullets, cars, machines, disease.....I've seen death caused by them all.

The military does not have a monopoly on the death industry.

I think you know very damn well that's not what I meant. Everyone has witnessed death in one way or another. Whether it was a grandparent or parent dying. Police officers investigating a crime scene. Firefighters responding to a scene of a horrific auto accident. In my case it was seeing my buddy getting his brains blown through the back of his head. My point is...I will not stand for someone saying these men and women are dying for nothing. They deserve way more respect than that. Nobody sitting there being an armchair quarterback is going to tell me what's what.

BTW...I hold you in very much regard. It's tough to put your life on the line everyday for people you never even met. Your selfless service goes greatly appreciated!

My-Immortal
02-01-2006, 10:29 PM
Will you be watching?

No.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 10:30 PM
I agree to you more than you probably realize. I can't say whether they are dying for nothing. That is something that only their families will ever really know. People who are committed to the cause in which they are engaged do not die for nothing, even if it may seem like they do.

For example, take a firefigher who dies in the line of duty. Does his (or her) death really bring about some grand change or make some impact on the course of events, usually not.

But, that person is committed to that for which they gave their life, therefore, their death was not "for nothing".

That is my somewhat confusing take on the issue.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 10:32 PM
But, that person is committed to that for which they gave their life, therefore, their death was not "for nothing".
You make a great point there, Brady.

My-Immortal
02-01-2006, 10:33 PM
But, that person is committed to that for which they gave their life, therefore, their death was not "for nothing".


Good point.

Sheryl Nantus
02-01-2006, 10:36 PM
*applauds*

SC Harrison
02-01-2006, 10:37 PM
My biggest concern is not that "we were lied to" or "Saddam was no threat". Give me a break. He showed his willingness and ability to deploy WMDs against the Iranians and the Kurds, he invaded a soverieign nation to aquire oil, he sent several scuds into residential parts of Israel, he openly pursued nuclear technology, etc.

My problem is the planning (or lack of) going into the war, and the piss-poor communication between units, which allowed a huge cache of HE artillery rounds to "disappear" from an ammo dump that should have been guarded heavily, but was abandoned instead. That's where a lot of the IEDs are coming from, but nobody wants to talk about the mistakes we made and are still making.

Plans should have been drawn up to fight an extended insurgency, but instead we declare victory, more than 1,700 lives ago.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 10:37 PM
You know who disgusts me? Those self-serving jackasses who have the inconsiderate gall to protest outside of the funerals of our fallen soldiers. Have some respect. Show some compassion for the families.
I agree as well. I can't think of a more inappropriate, disrespectful way to protest a war.

My-Immortal
02-01-2006, 10:39 PM
My biggest concern is not that "we were lied to" or "Saddam was no threat". Give me a break. He showed his willingness and ability to deploy WMDs against the Iranians and the Kurds, he invaded a soverieign nation to aquire oil, he sent several scuds into residential parts of Israel, he openly pursued nuclear technology, etc.

My problem is the planning (or lack of) going into the war, and the piss-poor communication between units, which allowed a huge cache of HE artillery rounds to "disappear" from an ammo dump that should have been guarded heavily, but was abandoned instead. That's where a lot of the IEDs are coming from, but nobody wants to talk about the mistakes we made and are still making.

Plans should have been drawn up to fight an extended insurgency, but instead we declare victory, more than 1,700 lives ago.
Another good point. :)

Sheryl Nantus
02-01-2006, 10:41 PM
My biggest concern is not that "we were lied to" or "Saddam was no threat". Give me a break. He showed his willingness and ability to deploy WMDs against the Iranians and the Kurds, he invaded a soverieign nation to aquire oil, he sent several scuds into residential parts of Israel, he openly pursued nuclear technology, etc.

My problem is the planning (or lack of) going into the war, and the piss-poor communication between units, which allowed a huge cache of HE artillery rounds to "disappear" from an ammo dump that should have been guarded heavily, but was abandoned instead. That's where a lot of the IEDs are coming from, but nobody wants to talk about the mistakes we made and are still making.

Plans should have been drawn up to fight an extended insurgency, but instead we declare victory, more than 1,700 lives ago.

can't agree with you more - for over TEN YEARS the UN let Saddam do what he wanted and waggled their collective fingers at him. He gassed his own people, which makes the argument that he had "no WMDs" silly, to say the least. He had plenty of time and notice that the US was coming and smuggled them out of the country then decided to hide. This IS the same man who figured that trench warfare was still the way to go in the First Gulf War, after all.

eldragon
02-01-2006, 10:43 PM
My point is...I will not stand for someone saying these men are dying for nothing. They deserve way more respect than that. Nobody sitting there being an armchair quarterback is going to tell me what's what.


How can those of us opposed to the war think the soldiers deaths are valid?

I respect life. I value life. Not just mine, but others as well.

As Brady said, it's important to think these issues through before sending soldiers to war.

War should be used only when there is no alternative to it. It's unnacceptable for our leaders to say that intelligence was flawed and that there are no WMD, the entire premise for our invasion in the first place, after thousands of soldiers have already died.

Now, we are over there, in a situation that looks beyond grim. But "armchair quarterbacks" aren't allowed to comment?

My-Immortal
02-01-2006, 10:43 PM
can't agree with you more - for over TEN YEARS the UN let Saddam do what he wanted and waggled their collective fingers at him. He gassed his own people, which makes the argument that he had "no WMDs" silly, to say the least. He had plenty of time and notice that the US was coming and smuggled them out of the country then decided to hide. This IS the same man who figured that trench warfare was still the way to go in the First Gulf War, after all.
A bunch of people must have taken the 'smart' pill today....or is it just that it's Feb and we're one month closer to sunshine again? :)

All these good points lately.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 10:50 PM
Now, we are over there, in a situation that looks beyond grim. But "armchair quarterbacks" aren't allowed to comment?

you're allowed to comment all you want. but your mischaracterizations of the situation (e.g. "the military is made of the poorest people in America") aren't going to get a free pass.

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 10:53 PM
aren't going to get a free pass.

Can I get a free movie pass? The price of a movie ticket is almost as bad as the price of gasoline!

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 11:02 PM
only if you agree to accompany me to a midnight screening of brokeback mountain in a pair of matching assless chaps.

ChunkyC
02-01-2006, 11:12 PM
only if you agree to accompany me to a midnight screening of brokeback mountain in a pair of matching assless chaps.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smilepopcorn.gif

eldragon
02-01-2006, 11:14 PM
you're allowed to comment all you want. but your mischaracterizations of the situation (e.g. "the military is made of the poorest people in America") aren't going to get a free pass.

Well, then, clarify the demographics of the military, then.

I say there are more African Americans than white, more high school education or equivalent than College grads, more poverty level enlistments than wealthy kids.

Why do people enlist in the military?

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 11:16 PM
only if you agree to accompany me to a midnight screening of brokeback mountain in a pair of matching assless chaps.

I am so there.

Sarita
02-01-2006, 11:18 PM
only if you agree to accompany me to a midnight screening of brokeback mountain in a pair of matching assless chaps. Oooo, ooo, ooo! Can I come too? Can I? Can I?

What? I'm trying to work my way through all the Oscar nominated movies...

Chacounne
02-01-2006, 11:20 PM
I come at this from a very different angle: My husband, Dan, was a Prisoner of War during Vietnam, and because it was a covert operation he was never acknowledged by his country or his government. This inspite of the bamboo infection under his toe nails (from torture) that lead the doctors to remove all of his toenails three times and it still came back. He was also sprayed with Agent Orange, which gave him diabetes. A side effect of his diabetes, a heart attack, killed him on June 12th, so he really did, ultimately, give his life for his country, and certainly his health.

Having said all that, he was against this war, because of how it is being fought. He was furious that the troops were not properly equiped for their mission. He gave all honour to those courageous men and women for doing their best under sometimes horrible conditions. Had he known about them, he would have been outraged at the protestors at the military funerals.

Thoughts to ponder,
Heather

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 11:21 PM
Well, then, clarify the demographics of the military, then.

I say there are more African Americans than white, more high school education or equivalent than College grads, more poverty level enlistments than wealthy kids.

Why do people enlist in the military?

i did. about 3 hours ago. and you're wrong:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=478202&postcount=169

Sheryl Nantus
02-01-2006, 11:26 PM
only if you agree to accompany me to a midnight screening of brokeback mountain in a pair of matching assless chaps.

ooh...

*gets camera ready*

:D

BradyH1861
02-01-2006, 11:26 PM
Oooo, ooo, ooo! Can I come too? Can I? Can I?


What will you wear? If we are wearing assless chaps, it is only fitting that we know your attire.

Sheryl Nantus
02-01-2006, 11:27 PM
i did. about 3 hours ago. and you're wrong:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=478202&postcount=169


busted that myth bigtime.

William Haskins
02-01-2006, 11:29 PM
one day the left will stop accepting their talking points simply because they're printed on vegetarian popsicle sticks.

SC Harrison
02-01-2006, 11:50 PM
War should be used only when there is no alternative to it.

Many people believe there is always an alternative to war, while many others believe it is the best way to deal with troubled areas, regardless of diplomatic possibilities.

I am somewhere in between, but I can tell you this: regardless of the size or scope of the military action, the forces, especially within the command structure, need to be fluid and adaptive, with real-time communications and intelligence that are not ignored or filtered to fit the preconceived battle plan. Our combat units have been trained in discretionary tactics for years, but they still need intelligent commanders. In my opinion, they do not have them or, if they do, they are in the wrong place.

Royale With Cheese
02-02-2006, 12:29 AM
Well, then, clarify the demographics of the military, then.

I say there are more African Americans than white, more high school education or equivalent than College grads, more poverty level enlistments than wealthy kids.

Why do people enlist in the military?

I enlisted to serve my country. I just so happend to use the GI Bill that came with it to get my degree.

The only color in the Army is green. I'm not sure about the other branches.

eldragon
02-02-2006, 12:37 AM
i did. about 3 hours ago. and you're wrong:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums...2&postcount=169


That's basically an analogy, an editorial.


It's not a hard data list. Let's see one of those.


How many African Americans are enlisted?
How many whites?
How many hispanics?

BradyH1861
02-02-2006, 12:38 AM
I joined the Air National Guard right out of high school because I like the color blue. Seriously, I wanted to get quality training as a firefighter that promptly allowed me to hire on with the city about six months out of the AF Fire Academy. I spent six years doing for Uncle Sam the same thing I did for my city, and excellent training on top of that. I wish it was some sort of patriotism on my part, but alas, I was motivated by the desire to help my employment prospects. I joined the FD when I was 19 and I have been there ever since.

robeiae
02-02-2006, 12:44 AM
It's not a hard data list. Let's see one of those.


How many African Americans are enlisted?
How many whites?
How many hispanics?
Why does william need to prove your unsupported assertion is incorrect? Where is the data you used to make that assertion?

My own opinion is that the military, being primarily made of volunteers, represents a rough cross-section of America, but I'm not going to try to verify that, as I'm not sure why it is so important; I don't place a different/higher premium on someone based on demographics.

Rob :)

SC Harrison
02-02-2006, 12:55 AM
My own opinion is that the military, being primarily made of volunteers, represents a rough cross-section of America, but I'm not going to try to verify that, as I'm not sure why it is so important; I don't place a different/higher premium on someone based on demographics.

Rob :)

I don't have any hard data either, but I believe there is a slightly higher percent of blacks vs whites in the military compared to total population numbers. If someone really wanted to find a huge gap in the percent of population vs employment(?) for black males, they should look at prisons. I have to say upfront that the numbers are depressing as hell.

Royale With Cheese
02-02-2006, 12:58 AM
I joined the Air National Guard right out of high school because I like the color blue. Seriously, I wanted to get quality training as a firefighter that promptly allowed me to hire on with the city about six months out of the AF Fire Academy. I spent six years doing for Uncle Sam the same thing I did for my city, and excellent training on top of that. I wish it was some sort of patriotism on my part, but alas, I was motivated by the desire to help my employment prospects. I joined the FD when I was 19 and I have been there ever since.

The Air Force has a great program for firefighters. Same with SP's. Nothing is sexier than a female Air Force SP standing in an airport with a german sheppard. RAWR.

special needs
02-02-2006, 01:05 AM
We've been making fun of presidents since the beginning of time. Get with the program.

When the next Democrat becomes president, you, too, can make fun of him/her all you want.

Isn't that fun?

First of all, I would like to clarify, I am by no means "a Republican". Don't label me a Democrat, either, because I don't believe in the way people view things. Bush's election with Kerry would have been the first time I was eligible to vote and I did not take advantage of this. Why? Because I didn't feel I could honestly decide which candidate was the right one for the job. I was not about to vote for Kerry because he was the "Democrat" and I wasn't going to vote for Bush because he was a "Republican". In the future, when I vote, I will soley base my decision on who is the best candidate, and not at all which political party they represent.

I would also like to clarify, that my decision to leave has nothing to do with politics or my feelings on Bush. The insults to Bush, however, were not insults to Bush in my mind. Bush is a well-spoken person, and if he's dumb because you feel that he is not---what does that make me? What does that make me when I could not begin to challenge Bush, or anyone, in speaking skills? If you're all talking down to Bush because you feel you are 'better' than him with words, spoken, at least---what are you saying about me?

Sarita
02-02-2006, 01:06 AM
How many African Americans are enlisted?
How many whites?
How many hispanics?

This site is quite useful for that info: http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/demographics.asp

I downloaded the Active Duty Army Then and now file. The Data is from 2003 and 1993 and it says that 59.3% (93- 62.4%) are white, 24%(93- 27.6%) Black, 9.9 % (93- 4.7%) Hispanic, 3.5% (93- 2.0%) Asian

William Haskins
02-02-2006, 01:08 AM
http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2002/chapter2/c2_raceth.htm

maestrowork
02-02-2006, 01:12 AM
only if you agree to accompany me to a midnight screening of brokeback mountain in a pair of matching assless chaps.

I like to watch.

William Haskins
02-02-2006, 01:13 AM
creepy bastard.

maestrowork
02-02-2006, 01:15 AM
you wish you knew how to quit me, Will...

eldragon
02-02-2006, 01:15 AM
http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2002/summary/summary.htm (http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2002/summary/summary.htm)



Anyone who wants to read it, fine. I'm not going to post it here.


Anyway, I believe, as I stated earlier, that the military is primarily made up of young people who join for the perks such as college tuition help. Black or white, I don't know ........its an economic thing.


If someone is already educated, do they go in the military in a higher rank than others who are just out of high school?

Royale With Cheese
02-02-2006, 01:20 AM
http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2002/summary/summary.htm (http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2002/summary/summary.htm)



Anyone who wants to read it, fine. I'm not going to post it here.


Anyway, I believe, as I stated earlier, that the military is primarily made up of young people who join for the perks such as college tuition help. Black or white, I don't know ........its an economic thing.


If someone is already educated, do they go in the military in a higher rank than others who are just out of high school?

Yes they do. If you enlist and have a certain amount of college credits you go in as a Specialist or (E-4).

There are plenty of college educated people who join the military. They are called officers.

BradyH1861
02-02-2006, 01:23 AM
Nothing is sexier than a female Air Force SP standing in an airport with a german sheppard. RAWR.

I certainly agree.......just don't ask them to frisk you.

Sarita
02-02-2006, 01:25 AM
The insults to Bush, however, were not insults to Bush in my mind. Bush is a well-spoken person... Seriously, did you happen to catch the Laura Bush Roast? She slammed him on not being a good speaker. It was all in good fun and she loves him, but she was still able to joke about it. She wasn't insulting everyone across America who isn't as eloquent as GW and neither are any of us. The joke is that he's the most powerful man in the US and he doesn't do well ad libbing in front of a live audience.

Take a look at the article if you get a chance. Mildly funny stuff.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/b/a/166531.htm

Just a little quote:

"George and I are complete opposites I'm quiet, he's talkative, I'm introverted, he's extroverted, I can pronounce 'nuclear.' "

Royale With Cheese
02-02-2006, 01:32 AM
This is what scared me the most about being in Iraq.....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/sternforum/camel_spider.jpg

William Haskins
02-02-2006, 01:33 AM
now i'm hungry. thanks a-fvckin-lot.

maestrowork
02-02-2006, 01:36 AM
soft shell spiders... yum

ChunkyC
02-02-2006, 01:40 AM
She wasn't insulting everyone across America who isn't as eloquent as GW and neither are any of us.
Quite right, Sara.

Special, nobody was saying a thing about you and your level of eloquence. I happen to like Bill Clinton. If I was an American citizen, I would have voted for him both times. But that doesn't automatically make me a man-slut, nor does it mean that any blue dress or cigar jokes are a personal attack on me. Same thing goes for GWB.

Neither you nor I are the President of the United States. Bill Clinton was, and George W. Bush is, and therefore they are held to a higher standard (on all things) than just about anyone else on the planet. They each knew this going in. They also knew long before they ran for President that poking fun at the President of the USA is a national, even international sport. I bet they engaged in it vigourously themselves before entering public life. Political cartoonists earn a living doing it. Every time a President makes a gaffe, everyone looks to their favorite comedian to see how they'll skewer him for it.

Please don't take an insult directed at someone you like as though it was directed at you, for it is not.

Unique
02-02-2006, 01:40 AM
This is what scared me the most about being in Iraq.....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/sternforum/camel_spider.jpg

WTF?

Oh, yeah.

Sheryl Nantus
02-02-2006, 01:40 AM
just what you like to curl up with at night...

*shudders*

ChunkyC
02-02-2006, 01:44 AM
Egads -- imagine finding one of those things in your boot in the morning....

Unique
02-02-2006, 01:45 AM
uh. one of those things eating your boot in the morning.

William Haskins
02-02-2006, 01:47 AM
imagine waking up spooning one of them and then explaining it to your wife.

Royale With Cheese
02-02-2006, 01:48 AM
Egads -- imagine finding one of those things in your boot in the morning....

Yeah. We were told to always shake our boots out before we put them on. Those paticular spiders are Camel Spiders. They are great for target practice with your M-16.

Unique
02-02-2006, 02:03 AM
Yeah. We were told to always shake our boots out before we put them on. Those paticular spiders are Camel Spiders. They are great for target practice with your M-16.

Good God, man! How big are your feet?

StoryG27
02-02-2006, 02:07 AM
I'm not scared of spiders in general, but those camel spiders would terrify me. I'll have to ask hubby if he's seen one. Or, more importantly, if he's woken up spooning one and now needs to explain it to me.

NeuroFizz
02-02-2006, 02:09 AM
I bet those guys (spiders) have some awesome neurons. Where's my electrode puller?

trumancoyote
02-02-2006, 02:10 AM
The picture's misleading. Look at the guy's sleeve, and the bottom of his palm.

Trick-o-the-eye, my pretties.

Still, it's an ugly mother****er -- that's for sure.

ChunkyC
02-02-2006, 02:11 AM
Those paticular spiders are Camel Spiders.
Named so probably because they eat camels.






Is anybody else feeling itchy right now?

Shadow_Ferret
02-02-2006, 02:16 AM
Ew! Glad we didn't get those aboard ship.