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butterfly
01-29-2013, 02:57 PM
On your hard drive? Printed out in a writerly-decorated binder? Stuffed in an old FEDEX box in the closet?

For now mine are in individual folders but I need something a bit more creative.

Kerosene
01-29-2013, 03:06 PM
"My Documents"

alleycat
01-29-2013, 03:08 PM
In a writing folder and sub-folders on my computer. And backed up to an external drive and to an Internet backup website.

bearilou
01-29-2013, 03:20 PM
*watches thread*

I have copies on my harddrive, a thumb drive, a secondary harddrive and that's it, which I know is not safe as any and all of those can fail at any time (I've already had a harddrive failure and a thumb drive failure). I'd love to find a nice internet backup place that's not dropbox (which I just have this, perhaps irrational, fear of using).

alleycat
01-29-2013, 03:24 PM
I have copies on my harddrive, a thumb drive, a secondary harddrive and that's it, which I know is not safe as any and all of those can fail at any time (I've already had a harddrive failure and a thumb drive failure). I'd love to find a nice internet backup place that's not dropbox (which I just have this, perhaps irrational, fear of using).

You could use the free version of Mozy if you just want to back-up document files (and not photos or videos). They give you 2 GB free (of course, with the hope that you will eventually need more); 2 GB is a lot of Word files. I've used Mozy and it works well.

BigWords
01-29-2013, 03:25 PM
The D drive on the computer is where all the active files are stored, the external hard drives, cloud storage and various other places are for semi-killed projects, while the print-outs are confined to the ancient and rather creaking things which may or may not be picked up again. I try to remember to save everything in a few places, but I am terrible at remembering where I saved the latest version of anything...

Oh, and I think Google Drive has 5GB free, straight off. Need to check it out to be sure though

Corussa
01-29-2013, 03:31 PM
I save my writing:

every time on my hard drive
occasionally on a secondary hard drive
just as occasionally on a flash drive
once in a blue moon by printing out (though I do that more because I want to read paper instead of a computer screen, rather than viewing it as a form of backing up).

I should probably be taking more precautions. However, I have a history of being careless about backing up, so that's a big improvement for me! :)

Mr Flibble
01-29-2013, 03:41 PM
I've had a hard drive fail (twice! Once with smoke...) but living with an IT guru has its perks. :D

I save to a writing folder (Subdivided into crits, released books, current projects, ideas etc)

I also back up to sugar synch (a cloud backup like dropbox) which lets me move projects to my laptop etc without worrying that things will get lost.

I also email important projects to myself every now and again, especially a final version

I should probably use a thumb drive too, but Son keeps 'borrowing' it....

ap123
01-29-2013, 03:43 PM
Hard drive, thumb drive, and too infrequently I back up to an external hard drive.

Buffysquirrel
01-29-2013, 04:06 PM
USB pen and dropbox.

fredXgeorge
01-29-2013, 04:36 PM
A writing folder in Documents, three memory sticks, and occasionally I update on an external hard drive (which reminds me, I must do that again soon).

KimJo
01-29-2013, 05:00 PM
I use Dropbox. I initially tried to save to both my hard drive and Dropbox, but I kept forgetting to do one or the other and lost two manuscripts because of it, so now I just save to Dropbox. I tend to kill computers after a year or two (seriously, the laptop I'm using right now is my fourth computer in as many years, though two of the ones I've gone through in that time were hand-me-downs from hubby), so for me it makes more sense to just use some form of cloud storage.

All of my books that have been published, or at least submitted, are also in folders in my web-based email accounts, so if Dropbox fails, I can access those that way. (I just wouldn't have access to my works in progress.)

jack lee
01-29-2013, 05:14 PM
2 hard drives usb stick, sometimes in print.

shadowwalker
01-29-2013, 05:20 PM
Hard drive and Mozy

Amanda R.
01-29-2013, 05:31 PM
Just dropbox. If my computer dies, I know the files are all safe. It's also great that I can access them from my ipad.

stormie
01-29-2013, 05:33 PM
Thumb drive and Dropbox

AshleyEpidemic
01-29-2013, 05:48 PM
Always stored on my 4gb flash drive, dedicated to writing. Every two weeks I back up to my computer. Every month I back up to my external hard drive.

SelmaW
01-29-2013, 05:56 PM
"My Docs", and periodically I email projects to myself. So far I haven't lost much; mostly problems arise for me from my tendency to create file names like "Project 1". Sorting through 20 "Project 1"s is ever so much fun 3 years later :tongue

jjdebenedictis
01-29-2013, 05:58 PM
My laptop, my husband's server, and Dropbox.

I don't keep hardcopies anymore, and I'm a frothy-mouthed fanatic about everyone keeping at least two backups, one of which is not located in your house.

EMaree
01-29-2013, 06:09 PM
-- C Drive (My Documents subfolder)
-- Daily Dropbox backups
-- Daily G-Mail backups

Backup everything.

tarawriter
01-29-2013, 07:13 PM
Everything is backed up to Carbonite. Anything I'm working on currently is also in my Dropbox.

Becky Black
01-29-2013, 07:18 PM
On my hard drive. Each novel project gets its own folder in My Documents. Then it's moved into the Completed Projects folder when it's finally done.
Backed up onto a USB stick, which I then carry around with me everywhere when I leave the house.
Current work backed up onto Google Drive. And I keep all previous versions of novel drafts as I work on them, so I can always get back to something from a couple of days back.

Beachgirl
01-29-2013, 07:56 PM
My Documents, 2 usb drives, and Microsoft Skydrive. I had a laptop die recently and I had forgotten to do a backup right after finishing the last chapter of a book, so now I'm paranoid.

angeliz2k
01-29-2013, 08:05 PM
I keep the absolute most recent version on both my hard drive and a thumb drive. I'm pretty anal about keeping them both up-to-date. I also occasionally email myself the file.

That way, I know for sure that a recent version is out there in the interweb ether, even if it isn't the most recent version. I also know that the most recent version is in the pocket of my purse in case I want to revise and in case there's a fire at the apartment that destroys my computer.

Putputt
01-29-2013, 08:48 PM
Hard drive and I e-mail them to myself. Should my hard drive fail (knock on wood!), I know that the file exists in two separate e-mail accounts.

idontknowwhatimdoing
01-29-2013, 09:00 PM
Super paranoid, so I have it on 2 different computers, Dropbox, Google Drive, and emails to myself occasionally.

Xelebes
01-29-2013, 09:48 PM
I have a shoebox of hardcopies (will need to upgrade to a chest soon.) Keep a folder on the hard drive with a backup on a parallel drive.

ChristinaLayton
01-29-2013, 09:58 PM
The D drive on the computer is where all the active files are stored, the external hard drives, cloud storage and various other places are for semi-killed projects, while the print-outs are confined to the ancient and rather creaking things which may or may not be picked up again. I try to remember to save everything in a few places, but I am terrible at remembering where I saved the latest version of anything...

Oh, and I think Google Drive has 5GB free, straight off. Need to check it out to be sure though


One question: Does Google Drive involve uploading and downloading? I have a 4G device with only 1000 minutes for transfers and that's why I keep my writings in my hard drive and in flash drives, oh, and in CD-R's, too. I don't print anything out. That would cost a boatload of money on ink and paper.

BigWords
01-29-2013, 10:11 PM
One question: Does Google Drive involve uploading and downloading?

Yeah. Sorry. If you are keeping an eye on how much you are using your internet connection, it probably isn't the best thing to look to - fortunately, there are some great external hard drives out there, and coming down in price all the time.

dangerousbill
01-29-2013, 10:21 PM
On your hard drive? Printed out in a writerly-decorated binder? Stuffed in an old FEDEX box in the closet?


Every piece of work is in a subfolder under a folder called '!writing'. (The exclamation point keeps it at the top of the folders list.)

It's automatically backed up on Carbonite as I go.

An external hard drive is used to back up once a month.

I email current work to my other computer at the end of each session. The file remains in 'the cloud' for as long as I like.

I also keep current work, along with business records, on a thumb drive that I keep on my person.

I keep a cumulative paper printout close to the keyboard so I can add notes and updates as I work.

When I have a completed novel manuscript, I go to lulu.com and get a single copy printed for final proofing.

Shadow_Ferret
01-29-2013, 10:23 PM
In a folder called Writing-->Fiction-->Novels (or short stories)-->[Title of WIP]

dangerousbill
01-29-2013, 10:24 PM
... I keep my writings in my hard drive and in flash drives, oh, and in CD-R's, too.


Beware depending on flash drives. If you live in a dry climate as I do, a single static spark can destroy them. I'm in the habit of discharging myself to something grounded before handling flash drives (and credit cards, too!).

schizoidwoman
01-29-2013, 10:25 PM
Two hard drives, Dropbox and my iPad...

Brightdreamer
01-29-2013, 10:30 PM
Hard drive.
At least once daily - or if I'm working on my laptop - I back up onto one flash drive. (I'd use online file backups, but I don't always have Internet access when I'm using my laptop.)
About once a week, I back up onto a second flash drive.
Every so often, I do a massive file backup on an external hard drive.

Chasing the Horizon
01-29-2013, 10:53 PM
I have all my current projects in a folder called "active projects" on my desktop. All my older stuff is in another folder called "writing" in my documents folder. I try to remember to save the "active projects" folder to my external hard drive every day or two and to a special thumb drive every few weeks. I also print hard copies of my final drafts, but that's so my IRL betas can read it (they don't have e-readers).

I used to keep a back-up in my car because my old building was a fire-trap. But the building I live in now is ultra-modern with a fancy fire suppression system so I don't worry about it anymore.

To me, having tons of back-ups is riskier than having only a few, because I'll get confused and save an older copy over the newest one. That's the only way I've ever lost anything in the past. I've never had a hard drive fail, and, since I'm good with Apple computers, if anything else happens I can retrieve the data.

shadowwalker
01-30-2013, 12:24 AM
Beware depending on flash drives. If you live in a dry climate as I do, a single static spark can destroy them. I'm in the habit of discharging myself to something grounded before handling flash drives (and credit cards, too!).

I'm paranoid about any 'mechanical device' for backups. Had too many disks go bad in the old days - thought I had photos nicely safe and bam! - lost (well, still had the originals but had to re-scan them).

Jersey Chick
01-30-2013, 02:28 AM
Hard drive, flash drive, emailed to my gmail account, and Carbonite. I also have hard copies of everything. I had a massive laptop failure a year and a half ago and although I was able to recover everything (how, I'll never know because I'm a techno-moron) I doubt I'll ever forget that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach as I had to re-install everything.

There is no such thing as too much backup, as far as I'm concerned.

saizine
01-30-2013, 03:31 AM
I keep my writing in several different file types (i.e. one Scrivener file for the entire project and separate documents divided by chapters) in my "writing" folder on my desktop with sub-folders for each project. So I have Writing --> [project title] --> [first draft: chapters] or [scrivener] or [notes/research.] I have the same file setup on Google Drive and a USB. I also do a lot of writing and editing longhand, and I keep my notebooks (I tend to use moleskine-style notebooks, notably Rhodia for its ability to withstand fountain pen ink) in a section of my filing cabinet. I also use Time Machine to back up my entire computer twice a day.

I tend to update my USB and Google Drive backups two-three times a week, depending on how much editing or writing I've got done. I'll occasionally email myself a master file if I've had a scare (occasionally my laptop decides that it just doesn't want to come out of sleep mode!) but generally I only update master files when I've completed a draft/edit.

lilyWhite
01-30-2013, 03:53 AM
On my laptop's hard drive, mainly. I'll back it up onto a USB drive every now and then, and sometimes on the home computer as well.

Fishfood
01-30-2013, 04:25 AM
I keep everything on my hard drive, and I have daily scheduled backups to an external hard drive (with FBackup) and online (Mozy). Mozy also stores old file versions for 30 days, so if I accidentally delete/overwrite something I can just retrieve an old copy. It's saved me several heart attacks. ;)

Sunflowerrei
01-30-2013, 11:47 AM
Document on desktop, thumb drive, Dropbox (my beta and I shared a file while she was reading the wip for me).

Paperback Writer
01-30-2013, 12:32 PM
I'm going to suggest a re-writable CD-RW for those without internet and wanting another alternative. The reasoning is that they're cheap, and if you keep it in a case it may be safer than a flash drive in some instances. i.e. it can't get corrupted.

Becky Black
01-30-2013, 01:47 PM
Oh and one other thing I do at the end of a writing session. I do a Save As and save a version of the document as a .txt file. Then of course I back that up alongside the document file.

Document files are fabulous of course, but they can become corrupted and be hard to rescue. Text files rarely corrupt and if they do are usually easier to rescue. You lose formatting like bold and italic and page breaks and stuff of course. But if disaster strikes, you've got your words.

bearilou
01-30-2013, 05:18 PM
Oh and one other thing I do at the end of a writing session. I do a Save As and save a version of the document as a .txt file. Then of course I back that up alongside the document file.

Document files are fabulous of course, but they can become corrupted and be hard to rescue. Text files rarely corrupt and if they do are usually easier to rescue. You lose formatting like bold and italic and page breaks and stuff of course. But if disaster strikes, you've got your words.

Good point. I remember hearing that advice before.

I wonder, would saving as .rtf work just as well? That would keep at least the basic formatting, right?

shadowwalker
01-30-2013, 05:45 PM
I wonder, would saving as .rtf work just as well? That would keep at least the basic formatting, right?

I have everything in rtf and I've never had any problem with them.

bearilou
01-30-2013, 05:57 PM
I have everything in rtf and I've never had any problem with them.

Excellent! Thank you! :)

Briony-zisaya
01-30-2013, 06:11 PM
Hard drive with backup on USB, notebooks (I use pen and paper sometimes), and some are printed out and kept in a 3 ring binder....oh and then there are the ones hiding in boxes in my storage.

Myrealana
01-30-2013, 06:54 PM
Hard drive
Daily Dropbox update
Weekly backup to flash drive

Dorky
01-30-2013, 07:50 PM
On my hard drives :) Same with my notes.

My oldest story (from way back when I was a young teenager) was done on a computer as well. I also did a lot of writing back then that was kept in numerous spirals and binders, and I still have all those pages and pages of messy writing all :D Granted, they’re buried under other books and notes, but they’re there.

Becky Black
01-30-2013, 07:53 PM
Good point. I remember hearing that advice before.

I wonder, would saving as .rtf work just as well? That would keep at least the basic formatting, right?

Probably. I'm extra cautious!

I think I picked up the advice a few years ago on the NaNoWriMo boards and it has saved my arse a couple of times since.

randi.lee
01-31-2013, 12:07 AM
Hard drive, external hard drive, Cloud, and a good old fashioned file cabinet!

scribofelidae
01-31-2013, 02:16 AM
I use two separate Macs regularly when writing -- the desktop and a laptop. Since I use Scrivener, I keep the 'live' files in Dropbox and open the files directly from there with whatever computer I am using. Then, I have Scrivener set up to locally back up when the file is opened, saved and closed. And, irregularly, I will email documents to my Gmail account.

(I lost the first 18K to a novel once. NEVER AGAIN. Now I'm lousy with backups and multiple versions.)

Print outs only happen for stuff that I'm actively working on that has gotten to the second draft stage, but I should probably be more consistent.

Riley
01-31-2013, 03:45 AM
Up my--erm. . . .well.

Hard drive. ;) You'd think with the hundreds upon thousands of words I've lost over the years I'd use something else, but nooooope. My work isn't quite as precious to me as it used to be.

princessmiwi
01-31-2013, 04:21 AM
Dropbox, which syncs to my notebook and to my ipad, so there are always at least 3 places where I can find my things. I usually end up emailing them too, when I finish a first draft.

edit: I don't this anymore, but I used to print my stories, which I filed in a neat folder that I used to show my work to some friends :)

kkbe
02-01-2013, 07:18 PM
In the front right pocket of my favorite jeans, wrapped around an ancient stick of Juicy Fruit. :)

DeleyanLee
02-01-2013, 07:47 PM
The present MIP is on the desktop, where I can find it easily (and to remind me to write instead of playing a game). A writer friend and I exchange MIPs on a semi-regular basis as a back-up.

Notes on future MIPs are a mix between handwritten in a notebook with the appropriate book title and a file in "My Writing" on the desktop, and a folder in "Favorites" of helpful/inspiring sites I've found along the way.

Finished books are printed out (double-sided) and the book with its history is put on a CD, which is then stored in the binder with the print-out. I delete all that stuff from the writing computer.

I once took a desktop computer in to get fixed. I had 20 years of writing on a secondary HDD. The idjit tech erased and reformatted BOTH drives, so the data was irretrievable. Also had a house fire that trashed all computers and external storage devices--though all the hard copies survived. I've come to be not so attached to words I've written since I know I can always write them again if I have to. *shrug*

Merrit
02-01-2013, 08:45 PM
A few months ago I would have told you that I kept it all on my hard drive. Then my computer crashed and I lost everything. I now keep everything on a jump drive, in my email, and in a hard copy format. I would rather be safe. Oh and I have some in my drop box and hidden in a private blog online.

flapperphilosopher
02-02-2013, 10:11 PM
I am a hard-drive and Mozy person too. As a teenager I did all my writing by hand, though, so I have stacks of paper in boxes in my parent's house too... I feel I should get rid of some of it, but I can't.

ChristinaLayton
02-02-2013, 10:30 PM
I'm going to suggest a re-writable CD-RW for those without internet and wanting another alternative. The reasoning is that they're cheap, and if you keep it in a case it may be safer than a flash drive in some instances. i.e. it can't get corrupted.


I used to save all my work on a CD-RW, and I thought they were like flash drives (this was back in 2007) so what I would do was to open the document, make changes to it and then save. I was then told that's why my files kept getting damaged, because every time you make changes to your MS you have to save the new version on the CD-RW as a brand-new file. Meaning if you only do 500-1000 words a day, on an 80,000 word manuscript, you could end up with 80 different versions of the same document. I wouldn't recommend it at all. For those that have no internet, external hard drives are the best option.

stormie
02-03-2013, 08:45 PM
Way back to what seems like the dawn of time, I kept all of my writings as hardcopy in an expanding manilla folder. Then two folders, then three.... As time went on and there were more choices, like floppies, then CDs, then DVDs, then USBs, then Dropbox (which I love).

One day, long after I stopped saving my work on paper, I opened those manilla folders. Low and behold, tiny holes peppered the pages. I threw everything out that I had already saved in Dropbox and a thumbdrive. The rest I copied onto my computer.

Snowstorm
02-03-2013, 09:09 PM
I keep my writing is several places.

My hard drive in a "Writing" folder or peeled out in a folder for my publisher's name.

If I print out my novels for a different method of editing, they're kept in a boxes in individual folders. (I don't ever throw them away in case of an IRS audit. Don't know if I have to keep them, but I do to show that I'm actively working on writing.) If I print out writing that's only one to several sheets, I have a "writing" folder in my cabinet.

I keep backups on two thumb drives, plus I email the files of any daily edits of novels to three email accounts.

Jamesaritchie
02-03-2013, 09:29 PM
I keep everything in a main folder with sub-folders inside. This is on my hard drive, or an external hard drive, and on a pair of DVDs. I also back up to Google Drive, and to SkyDrive. At the end of each writing day, I just move the main folder to the external hard drive and the DVDs, rewriting the folder that's already there. Only takes a couple of minutes this way, and everythng is safe.

I only use thumb drives for convenient transfer when I'm traveling. I've seen thumb drives fail too often to trust them.

NottiThistledore
02-04-2013, 01:18 AM
On my hard drive, backed up to Dropbox (you can set Scrivener to do this automatically every time you close a file) and backed up to an external hard drive. My husband's a software developer and insists on multiple backups!

cmi0616
02-04-2013, 03:22 AM
On my laptop's harddrive (if that's where the documents go when you hit save) and backed up on one of those plug-in back-up thingy's. As you can see, I'm super tech savy.

Linda Adams
02-04-2013, 03:36 AM
On my hard drive, with an online backup. My research notes and book diary are in Evernote. I try to do as little paper as possible because I don't really have the storage room for it.

Torill
02-04-2013, 11:56 AM
I write my ms directly in Google Drive, and transfer the finished chapters to a word document on my harddisk as I go. Which I print out occasionally, just to be sure. And once in a while I will transfer said document to an external harddisk, too.

The reason I write in Google, is that everything is automatically saved every few seconds, and I can go back and look at my 'revision history' and see what the document looked like five days ago, or five months ago, or three years ago for that matter. Nothing is ever lost. Also, I can write everywhere I am, as long as there is a computer with an internet connection available, which suits me fine - I move around a lot, plus have had my laptop crash more than once (or someone else in my household has grabbed it already!).

ElsaM
02-04-2013, 12:35 PM
After my laptop was stolen I lost a few things that I hadn't put in my email account because I'm a terrible, lazy person who doesn't back up regularly. Now I automatically save everything to dropbox.

I am happy to serve as a lesson to others!

davidh219
02-04-2013, 12:54 PM
Similar to many other posters I have a writing folder that's synced to dropbox. Directly in the folder is the stuff I'm working on. Other stuff sits in one of three sub-folders, "Abandoned or Shelved", "Finished-ish", and "Non-Fiction"

I also write in notebooks quite a bit. I have a little field notes (google it) notebook that I carry everywhere. I also have a freewriting composition book, and another composition book for one of the two novels I'm first-drafting right now. Neither have been transcribed into a word document or anything, so losing them would be pretty devastating, but I also never take then out of the house, so I'm not that worried. As for why I'm writing one novel in a notebook and another on the computer? No clue. I don't make sense, is what I'm realizing.

Anna Spargo-Ryan
02-04-2013, 03:56 PM
I use two separate Macs regularly when writing -- the desktop and a laptop. Since I use Scrivener, I keep the 'live' files in Dropbox and open the files directly from there with whatever computer I am using. Then, I have Scrivener set up to locally back up when the file is opened, saved and closed. And, irregularly, I will email documents to my Gmail account.


This is literally exactly what I do.

Sheluvspink
02-04-2013, 08:24 PM
In various word docs, and I email copies to myself if my comp ever crashes. I need to get more organized about that. I'm getting a mac soon so I'm putting it off until then.

scribofelidae
02-05-2013, 06:07 PM
This is literally exactly what I do.

The only caveat I'll offer on this system is that, as I've learned the hard way, it's important to open the document from Dropbox itself or on a short cut you've made on your respective computer instead of just launching Scrivener.

My system was working flawlessly when I was where the wifi was good. But there was a local drop-in writing group in the bowels of the local library where the wifi wasn't so good and Dropbox took some time to sync on my laptop, sometimes a couple of minutes or more.

Not realizing this, I opened the novel by opening Scrivener, and it would have no choice but to pull up the last version it had, the previous version missing anything new that I'd written. Cue the panic! And then Dropbox would finish syncing (very crap wifi) and I would try to hurriedly shut down the file and re-open … which would then save the older version over the actual current version. It took me a few accidents to figure out what was going on, but once I figured it out and changed how I opened the files, it has been smooth sailing. (And of course, what I had 'lost' was still seeded through the automatic backups on the desktop back home. Just took some unzipping.)

If I lose something now, after all that, I consider it a sign and wash my hands of it. :D

Writelock
02-05-2013, 10:32 PM
Published stuff goes in a box underneath the bed. Virtual works are in a folder hidden in my lesson plan folder.

DancingMaenid
02-06-2013, 08:34 AM
I have a few folders on my hard drive. I try to keep my writing organized, so I have a folder for short stories and one for nonfiction, for example. I regularly back stuff up on a flash drive, and a lot of my stuff is backed up online.

JustinlDew
02-07-2013, 06:35 AM
Dropbox.
Skydrive
My home file server and my computer(s).
I figure if I can't ever access any of them then the world will have ended so I'm not going to need to worry about it. :ROFL:

Knigel
02-07-2013, 07:12 AM
I use Dropbox and then Google Docs for sharing my work to be edited. Now I at least have one back up and one near backup. My laptop was just bricked, so I'm so lucky I have this so I can keep working and not freak out that I lost my stuff.

blacbird
02-07-2013, 08:12 AM
Out of direct sunlight. For me, the question has become not so much Where, as Why.

caw

Lycoplax
02-11-2013, 01:08 AM
It used to be an assortment of flash drives for me, but I've taken up Dropbox lately, and it works for me. So I keep my 'main' copy there, and back up periodically to the wee drives.

JustSarah
02-11-2013, 08:36 AM
I tend to start a lot of things, but have a hard time finishing them. Of what I do write I tend to keep it on a drive so I can salvage it later for something else. The problem is thats a lot I need to salvage.D:

ladyleeona
02-11-2013, 08:50 AM
...in a deep, dark pit along with all my agent voodoo dolls.


erm.

Hard drive of my computer mostly, and then everything's backed up on a couple external hard drives (and occasionally in my email). When I remember. *tries to remember last time* *ducks and scurries to back-up everything*

(Usually about the time I go, "hmmm, might oughta back that crap up," something goes oh-so very wrong.)