Reviewing the publishing instead of the book

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Torgo

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I'm getting pretty tired of books on Amazon being bombed with 1* reviews on the grounds that the ebook is too expensive or unavailable.

The latest one is here: Brandon Sanderson's The Memory of Light - the completion of the late Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time sequence. There are around 100 1* reviews, all complaining that the ebook is scheduled to come out some months after the hardback release. Many of them slam Jordan's widow, Harriet, for apparently insisting on this windowing to protect sales of the hardback. Some of them are nasty - like this from Paul Kingsley:

No ebook because Jordan's widow want's to make more money by trying to force this hardcover to #1 means one star to hopefully ensure she doesn't succeed.
Publishers, authors, retailers, dead author's widows - get with the program!
Dead tree versions are, like dead authors, pushing up daisies.

Now, putting aside the fact that Mr Kingsley is a rude, whining shitheel with an epic sense of entitlement, reasonable people can disagree as to whether holding back the ebook release is OK or not. But the fact is that had they gone for the option of releasing the ebook with the hardback, at or near the hardback price point, there would be 100 1* reviews slamming the 'rip-off'. "There are no production costs!" Paul Kingsley would be screeching. "Greedy bastards!"

Windowing is a time-honoured and important publishing strategy. A book will sell at all kinds of different price points over its lifetime - the hardcore fans will pay for the hardcover, the casuals will wait for the paperback, the book club members will get it cheaply, etc etc. Generally speaking the sooner you want to read a book the more you'll pay.

I'm kind of intrigued at the way ebooks are showing us that when consumers catch on to this they tend to get irate - they clearly have never quite realized that hardbacks cost more because they are early access to the content, not because they cost more to make. (They do, but not a lot more.) So there's a debate to be had about what's the best way to publish stuff, and I lean towards things like bundling.

The place not to have this debate is in the reviews of a book. Even when the ebook is out, those 1* ratings will remain, dragging the whole work down. People don't necessarily read the reviews - they may well just see the low rating and click through to the next book. Amazon clearly don't care. They never, as far as I can tell, remove reviews of the price, and I wouldn't hold my breath for any of these reviews of the release date to disappear. I think it's deeply unfair to authors.

Anyway: I just wanted to let off some steam. As you were...
 

Momento Mori

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I usually report reviews that don't comply with Amazon policy (e.g. they review stuff that's not out yet or are not commenting on the product) but it has little effect. Maybe more people need to do it. I know that there's been a lot of discussion among Amazon UK reviewers about Amazon's approach to reviews and the general impression is that having amended the programme a couple of years ago, they're not going to do so again. Their system is geared up to maximising the number rather than the quality of reviews, which I think is completely muddle-headed. I do still review there, but I buy my books from Waterstones or Foyles.

MM
 

Phaeal

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I'm afraid the more people switch to e-readers as their primary reading mode, the more discontent there will be if the ebook isn't released on the same day as the paper version. Especially a long-awaited book like the finale of WoT. I noticed unrest over the delay of the ebook as early as last March or April, when the hardcover release date was announced

I agree that a book review should criticize the content of the book, not a publishing decision. The fans are using Amazon's review forum as a guerilla form of protest, which is unfair to the writer.

.
 

Roger J Carlson

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I agree that a book review should criticize the content of the book, not a publishing decision. The fans are using Amazon's review forum as a guerilla form of protest, which is unfair to the writer.
I disagree. A book is a collaborative project between the writer and the publisher. Publishing decisions should be fair game. And "fair" has nothing to do with reviews. Reviews are about what people think of the product.
 

Phaeal

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That's true, if you think of a book as a product. And perhaps Amazon does look at its book reviews as product reviews, rather than critical or literary reviews.

The distinction should be made, I think.
 

thethinker42

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I disagree. A book is a collaborative project between the writer and the publisher. Publishing decisions should be fair game. And "fair" has nothing to do with reviews. Reviews are about what people think of the product.

Good point.

I have seen (and received) reviews criticizing a book's price, formatting, availability, editing (especially editing), and even cover art. The thing is, the reader is a consumer leaving a review for a product they've consumed. If they're unhappy about an aspect of that product, it's fair game for it to affect the review, just like someone who's purchased a blender might complain about difficult-to-open packaging rather than the functionality of the blender itself.
 

Mr Flibble

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They already say in what they consider off topic comments in reviews:

Off topic
• Feedback on the seller, your shipment experience or the packaging
• Details about availability or alternative ordering and shipping information
Be nice if they abided by that.

If people are unhappy about kindle windows/pricing that's one thing, but in a review isn't really the place to air that grievance imo, because it's not helping people to decide whether they'd like the book or not. Especially having a go at the author's widow...And ofc they aren't consumers because they haven't consumed the book, that's the whole point...
 

Torgo

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I disagree. A book is a collaborative project between the writer and the publisher. Publishing decisions should be fair game. And "fair" has nothing to do with reviews. Reviews are about what people think of the product.

Sure, but the star rating is such a blunt tool. If people use it to express several different orthogonal opinions about a book, it loses its utility. You see a book with hundreds of 1* reviews, you tend to think that the book is bad, not that at some point people were up in arms about the price or the scheduling.

What about the hundreds of negative reviews of JK Rowling's latest, essentially reviewing the price of the ebook edition? And reviewing it as a misleading comparison to the price of the heavily discounted, loss-leader hardback editions?

What about when the reviews from one edition bleed over to another, or persist when the problems being complained about are no longer issues? In six months when the WoT ebook is out, those reviews aren't going to melt away, are they?

Mixing messages like this hurts me as a consumer, because it changes the star rating on a book from a rough estimate of what people thought about it as readers to a swamp of various opinions about the way it was released; the signal to noise screws up any discovery help.

Amazon will already remove reviews that complain about stuff like delivery...
 

Torgo

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Good point.

I have seen (and received) reviews criticizing a book's price, formatting, availability, editing (especially editing), and even cover art. The thing is, the reader is a consumer leaving a review for a product they've consumed. If they're unhappy about an aspect of that product, it's fair game for it to affect the review, just like someone who's purchased a blender might complain about difficult-to-open packaging rather than the functionality of the blender itself.

Amazon will remove reviews that complain about aspects of the purchase that make them or their marketplace sellers look bad - like, say, delivery problems etc. They won't remove reviews that complain about aspects of the purchase that make publishers or authors look bad.
 

Roger J Carlson

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Mixing messages like this hurts me as a consumer, because it changes the star rating on a book from a rough estimate of what people thought about it as readers to a swamp of various opinions about the way it was released; the signal to noise screws up any discovery help.
Then as a consumer, you need to be discerning. Read the review itself and if it contains information useless to you, ignore it. Do you really purchase something based on the star rating without view the reviews themselves?
 

Cyia

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People have a sense of entitlement about just about everything - especially that which is of greatest convenience to them. They've been sold on the idea that the ebook is superior, cheaper, faster, and more convenient, but the idea of that superiority is threatened when cost isn't an issue because it's not for sale, it's not faster because it's not for sale, and it's not convenient because it can't be downloaded.

Ebooks are great, but this is simply another head of the monster saying they're the *only* option that should exist. (Granted, not everyone is going to be as crass as to compare the deceased author to a dead tree, but there's not a lot of room for interpretation there.)

Also, having that callous an attitude toward the author and his widow makes you the worst fan ever.
 

Torgo

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Then as a consumer, you need to be discerning. Read the review itself and if it contains information useless to you, ignore it. Do you really purchase something based on the star rating without view the reviews themselves?

A lower star rating is correlated with fewer clicks on the product page, so it clearly has an effect on consumers. I tend to click through and read what people are saying, but not everyone does, especially if they are choosing between two or more books on the same subject or in the same series. Perhaps subconsciously I avoid stuff with low ratings (or that deadly 2.75 - 3.25 stars area.)

I would rather argue for no star ratings at all, because then people would be forced to see what the actual complaints were; or alternatively, to delete reviews that don't address the book as a book at all, but solely as a purchase. If the status quo is your preferred option, that seems to leave the star rating as - paradoxically - a meaningless but annoyingly influential bit of info.
 

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I disagree. A book is a collaborative project between the writer and the publisher. Publishing decisions should be fair game. And "fair" has nothing to do with reviews. Reviews are about what people think of the product.

It is a collaborative project, but the writer has no control over the publisher's decision. As long as there are differing views on what exactly is supposed to be reviewed, one ranking based on lumping all issues together hurts the writer and there isn't any recourse.
 

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Reviews on Amazon are as meaningless as a fart in a whirlwind, whether the books gets a one or a five. Even the top sellers get an unbelievable number of one star reviews. If these silly reviews mattered, every top seller out there would be a flop.

Really, who cares about Amazon reviews, and what difference does it make at all, to anyone? You can't change the reviews, you can't stop anyone from giving horrible reviews on Amazon for any reason they like, or for no reason. Fortunately, very, very few pay any attention to them, one way or the other.
 

Torgo

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Fortunately, very, very few pay any attention to them, one way or the other.

This isn't what people at Amazon, with direct knowledge of the statistics, say. And it isn't what I see when I look at the way we publish new authors. There's a noticeable difference to the sales of an author when the author has no reviews, for example. The presence of a review in search results seems to encourage people to click through to the product page.

If we just want a system where Amazon reviews are utterly useless and everyone ignores them by default, we're going the right way about it. Tis an unweeded garden that grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature possess it merely.
 

CrastersBabies

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I'm afraid the more people switch to e-readers as their primary reading mode, the more discontent there will be if the ebook isn't released on the same day as the paper version. Especially a long-awaited book like the finale of WoT. I noticed unrest over the delay of the ebook as early as last March or April, when the hardcover release date was announced

I agree that a book review should criticize the content of the book, not a publishing decision. The fans are using Amazon's review forum as a guerilla form of protest, which is unfair to the writer.

.

Agree 100%. I want to know about content in a review, not hear grousing from people who don't like how the book was released/marketed.
 

heza

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This isn't what people at Amazon, with direct knowledge of the statistics, say. And it isn't what I see when I look at the way we publish new authors. There's a noticeable difference to the sales of an author when the author has no reviews, for example. The presence of a review in search results seems to encourage people to click through to the product page.

I buy things on Amazon, but not books. I do, however, get my info about books from Amazon because it's convenient. And I totally agree that my tendency to click through to a book's page is dependent on the number of reviews it has.

But it doesn't matter to me what the good/bad ratio of reviews is. If it's mostly high reviews, I'll go read them to see what the hype's about. If they're mostly low reviews, I'll click through to see the train wreck. If it turns out those bad reviews are just complaints about non-book stuff I don't care about, I'll dismiss them and read the high reviews. If it's an even mix, I'll pick a few from each set and see how it plays out.

But, yeah, I think the only solution for now is to just educate consumers that rank doesn't matter--it's a fallible system, it's a corrupt system. You can explain what reviews are actually for until you're blue in the face. Amazon can put out a policy notice. But until reviews are monitored for compliance before they're posted or reviewers are only allowed to check boxes, you're not going to get them in line. If they have any sort of soapbox at all, they'll blubber about whatever they didn't like, even if it's only what they had for breakfast that day.
 

Roger J Carlson

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It is a collaborative project, but the writer has no control over the publisher's decision. As long as there are differing views on what exactly is supposed to be reviewed, one ranking based on lumping all issues together hurts the writer and there isn't any recourse.
But it isn't JUST the writer that is affected if bad reviews lead to poor sales. The publisher is affected too.

Regardless, if you get to the point where you can tell people what and how to review, reviews become meaningless. The Publish America boards are full of glowing reviews because all the bad ones are deleted.

Free exchange of information means taking the good with the bad.
 

thethinker42

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Amazon will remove reviews that complain about aspects of the purchase that make them or their marketplace sellers look bad - like, say, delivery problems etc. They won't remove reviews that complain about aspects of the purchase that make publishers or authors look bad.

That doesn't surprise me.
 

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It is a collaborative project, but the writer has no control over the publisher's decision. As long as there are differing views on what exactly is supposed to be reviewed, one ranking based on lumping all issues together hurts the writer and there isn't any recourse.

In this case, both the actual writer and publisher wanted it in ebook format. It's the author's widow who's preventing it because "she is uncomfortable with ebooks" and wishes to force people into hardcovers to manipulate the best seller lists.

This, combined with a highly motivated fanbase who are disproportionately likely to read ebooks, is why this has become a cause celebre and spilled into a campaign of one star reviews. As with the long refusal to release the Harry Potter series in ebook form, I suspect the biggest reaction will be an increase in piracy, not hardcover sales.

On reviews in general, I agree with others and would like to see the star system disappear. It's not particularly helpful and is highly subject to manipulation, both positive and negative.
 

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In this case, both the actual writer and publisher wanted it in ebook format. It's the author's widow who's preventing it because "she is uncomfortable with ebooks" and wishes to force people into hardcovers to manipulate the best seller lists.

'Force' and 'manipulate' seem somewhat loaded terms to me, especially when you consider that if the ebook had come out at the same time and at £34.99 there would be a slew of 1* reviews criticising the price point. What people are asking for here is really no different from demanding that the paperback came out at the same time as the hardback. If people want the cheaper, more portable format, the price they pay is waiting a bit for it (and they would usually have to wait longer than four months.)
 

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'Force' and 'manipulate' seem somewhat loaded terms to me, especially when you consider that if the ebook had come out at the same time and at £34.99 there would be a slew of 1* reviews criticising the price point. What people are asking for here is really no different from demanding that the paperback came out at the same time as the hardback. If people want the cheaper, more portable format, the price they pay is waiting a bit for it (and they would usually have to wait longer than four months.)

I don't think people would be complaining about the price. People are getting more sophisticated about ebook pricing. If they aren't, they at least don't object in this way in anything like similar numbers.

Look at the new Dresden Files book Cold Days for a comparison. Amazon is selling it at $17.95 hardcover ($27.95 list) which is in the same range as the Jordan book at $19.95 Amazon/$34.95 list. Like Jordan, it's a fantasy book in a long running series with a rabid fanbase. The ebook is available for $14.95, which is a few bucks less than the hardcover, but hardly in "cheap e-book" territory. However, out of 1064 reviews, it has only a single 1-star review and only eight 2-star reviews, none of which mention price.

Ebooks really aren't optional anymore. I love reading on my kindle. I doubt if I'll ever buy another novel in physical form as long as I live and it has nothing to do with price and everything to do with the format.
 

Torgo

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I don't think people would be complaining about the price. People are getting more sophisticated about ebook pricing. If they aren't, they at least don't object in this way in anything like similar numbers.

The Dresden files ebook is being sold for a similar price to the discounted hardcover price, whereas if you look at The Casual Vacancy you'll see lots of attacks on the price; the difference being that the ebook there was pegged near the list price of the hardcover. It's fairly common among the big six to try to maintain the price windowing - the ebook goes out at the hardcover list price, then drops to the paperback list price when the latter is out.

Agency pricing allows us to do that, but we're getting slammed for it, and Amazon will do whatever it can to increase the contrast - they'll discount the physical edition to undercut the ebook, and they'll put helpful notes on the product page to emphasise that you should blame the publisher.

I think we're in a bit of a bind. If we release and ebook and try to maintain the price windowing, we get slammed on the price. If we release an ebook with the paperback in order to protect the hardback revenue, we get slammed on the scheduling. So really the only option left to us is to cave in and put the ebook out there for half the list price of the hardback.

It's worth seeing what that does to the economics of publishing - whether it results in more or less revenue. If the former, cool beans. If the latter, then it's going to hit publishers and authors in the pocket. We need to experiment, but at the moment it feels like damned if we do, damned if we don't.
 

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Physical book priced above e-book, as with Casual Vacancy is, I think, a little different matter. There's really no legitimate reason for that and I think it pushes peoples buttons in a way that a high ebook price alone doesn't.

Personally, I'd be happy to see all "dumping" illegal. I can't think of a single time it wasn't being done in some kind of a predatory manner. However, hardcovers are obviously priced with the assumption of ludicrous discounting. At some point, the industry (meaning authors, publishers, and retailres as a whole) is going to need to figure out a way to normalize so the list and actual price are roughly equivalent. I didn't think Agency Pricing was a particularly terrible way to go about normalizing prices. I'm not sure if some kind of price linkage could be done as part of ebook contracts, ie, an agreement that the ebook will not be sold for less than the price of the paper version and pass muster.
 

Torgo

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I'm not sure if some kind of price linkage could be done as part of ebook contracts, ie, an agreement that the ebook will not be sold for less than the price of the paper version and pass muster.

These kinds of strategies have kind of been stomped on by the DoJ and the EU, unfortunately.
 
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