Sinking or capsizing a small ship.

efreysson

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I'm writing the climax of my fantasy novel, and I need a way for a crew to either sink or capsize their own boat.

The setup is that the heroes have caught up with an undermanned merchant boat. The bad guys are transporting a certain sarcophagus, and prefer it at the bottom of the sea rather than in enemy hands.

The boat I have in mind would be similar to a viking knorr.
How long would it take for a boat like that to sink if 3-5 men start chopping at the bottom with axes? Is it wobbly enough that the crew could capsize it by moving the sarcophagus and maybe some other cargo up against the bulwark?
 

Buffysquirrel

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If they can move the sarcophagus, can't they just tip it overboard?
 

Drachen Jager

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I used to sail a lot, this is on a small boat but the principle is the same for a ship. Run straight across a very brisk wind and bring all your sails so they're flat to the wind, the wind catches the sails and the whole thing tips over very quickly if the wind is strong enough.
 

King Neptune

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I'm writing the climax of my fantasy novel, and I need a way for a crew to either sink or capsize their own boat.

The setup is that the heroes have caught up with an undermanned merchant boat. The bad guys are transporting a certain sarcophagus, and prefer it at the bottom of the sea rather than in enemy hands.

The boat I have in mind would be similar to a viking knorr.
How long would it take for a boat like that to sink if 3-5 men start chopping at the bottom with axes? Is it wobbly enough that the crew could capsize it by moving the sarcophagus and maybe some other cargo up against the bulwark?

Where is the sarcophagus stowed? If it is in the hold, then shifting it to capsize wouldn't work easily. If it is on the deck, then moving it to one side and using to sails to tip the ship might bring it over.

But 5 men with axes could cut a hole the size of a door within a minute. As I recall it, the planking was about two inches thick, so a good man with a good axe could chop through with every swing. I would think that the weight of the sarcophagus would allow the ship to sink, rather than just lie, awash, on the surface.
 

efreysson

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Where is the sarcophagus stowed? If it is in the hold, then shifting it to capsize wouldn't work easily. If it is on the deck, then moving it to one side and using to sails to tip the ship might bring it over.

But 5 men with axes could cut a hole the size of a door within a minute. As I recall it, the planking was about two inches thick, so a good man with a good axe could chop through with every swing. I would think that the weight of the sarcophagus would allow the ship to sink, rather than just lie, awash, on the surface.

You just made me realize I've been going the long way across this issue.
I'll just have them chop up the boards around the sarcophagus, and its weight will do the rest. The boat sinking will just be a bonus. :)
 

King Neptune

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You just made me realize I've been going the long way across this issue.
I'll just have them chop up the boards around the sarcophagus, and its weight will do the rest. The boat sinking will just be a bonus. :)

That might be too much work, because there would be ribs and maybe the keel to chop through. They might be able to get a huge hole, but the water would make it impossible for them to finish chopping through. The ship would sink around the time when the water got too deep for them to chop the planking any more.
 

Dave Hardy

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Maybe there's an auger in the carpenter's tool-chest? Bore a hole or two and get while the getting's good? Or maybe attack a strake along the waterline. Knorrs weren't very big, so I'm not sure you'd need a massive hole to flood it. That is ticklish business, scuttling a ship while one is still on it.
 

jclarkdawe

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I would not buy them sinking the ship, except as a last resort. And sea chases don't happen very fast, so there are several things to be done before you scuttle your boat.

As soon as the chase begins, the bad guys would put their boat on its best course for sailing, while maximizing the distance from their pursuer. It would appear from the sail plan that the best course would be a few degrees from one hundred and eighty degrees from the true wind. For example, if the true wind is from the North, you'd head either SSW or SSE, rather then due South. At this point, you'd have a slight heel to the boat.

There isn't much you can do to make a sailboat go faster. You can add more sail, but not with this sail plan, unless you have a reef in the sail. So the next option is to lighten the boat. You start throwing everything you can overboard. Obviously the easiest stuff goes first, and you tend to throw it over the leeward side of the boat (which will be a bit lower because of the ship's heel).

Based upon what I can discover, these ships carried about 20 - 25 tons of freight. My guess is between fully laden and empty you'd probably see about a 20% or more increase in speed.

Okay, before this all started, they had to load the sarcophagus on the boat. My guess is they used the boom to lift it and swing it on board. Problem is the boom is occupied. But the sailors are aware of the ability to hoist the sarcophagus, and would use that knowledge.

Now if you look at the model, you'll notice that there are several ropes that hold up the mast, which are called stays. When you are sailing, some of the stays are loaded, and bearing the mast's pull, and other stays aren't loaded. Roughly speaking, the loaded stays are going to be to windward. The leeward stays will be doing nothing, and will actually be loose.

So, again with the easy solution, you disconnect a couple of the unloaded stays, and use the block and tackles on them to sway up the sarcophagus. By turning the boat a little bit and shifting of the movable weight (crew), you can increase the heel, at which point the sarcophagus will end up on the gunwale. At that point, a bit of a shove and loosening the lines and over it goes. And you still have the boat to get away with afterwards.

By the way, there is a major risk with this approach. If the wind shifts direction and the helmsman doesn't react immediately, or the helmsman for some reason is forced to make a major course change, you end up with the wind coming over what was formerly your leeward side. The side where the stays are no longer connected. Result is your mast goes over the side.

It's worth the risk, but ...

Another option, and the easiest one for the sailors to do, would be as Drachen suggests, and intentionally capsize the boat. All the freight would drop out, and by releasing the sheets to the sail, and putting the crew on the upper part of the hull, you'd probably be able to right the boat, although probably having shipped some water.

Both of these courses would be much more likely then intentionally sinking the ship.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Anaximander

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They could always start a fire in the hold. Lamp oil, tar-soaked ropes, timber...
 

WeaselFire

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I'm writing the climax of my fantasy novel, and I need a way for a crew to either sink or capsize their own boat.
They could have my wife drive. (Ducking and running...)

Seriously, can they just toss the thing overboard? Open vessels like a Knorr sink quickly, no air pockets. Unless it's made of something that floats of course. That size might be hard to rock enough to tip over, but a rope to the top of the mast and the crew standing on a gunnel with the cargo stacked off-center might be able to tip it enough to flood, especially with a decent wind.

Jeff
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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The boat I have in mind would be similar to a viking knorr.
How long would it take for a boat like that to sink if 3-5 men start chopping at the bottom with axes? Is it wobbly enough that the crew could capsize it by moving the sarcophagus and maybe some other cargo up against the bulwark?

A Viking knarr doesn't have a hold or upper deck. It's an open ship with some decking just above the bilge.

You'd have to lift the decking and chop holes in the hull. How fast the ship would sink depends on how fast the water comes in (how big the holes are).

However, Viking knarrs are made of wood, which floats. To actually sink the ship, the sarcophagus would need to be heavier than the floating capacity of the wood.

When we sink our Viking ship to protect it from hurricanes, it floats with the top strake and gunwale above the water. Our ship has far less floating capacity than a knarr.


I used to sail a lot, this is on a small boat but the principle is the same for a ship. Run straight across a very brisk wind and bring all your sails so they're flat to the wind, the wind catches the sails and the whole thing tips over very quickly if the wind is strong enough.

A knarr is a rather large ship. Longer and wider than our 40 foot x 12 food longship. Also, there's only one "square" (usually rectangular) sail. Given the inherent stability of the hull design, a much shorter mast height, and far lighter weight of sail, I would doubt that this manoever would reliably work with a knarr.

Also, even if you could capsize the ship, it wouldn't sink readily. See above. There's very little ballast in a Knarr. The sarcophagus would provide some ballast but it would have to be really heavy to offset the buoyancy of that much wood.


Where is the sarcophagus stowed? If it is in the hold,

No hold in a knarr.



That might be too much work, because there would be ribs and maybe the keel to chop through. They might be able to get a huge hole, but the water would make it impossible for them to finish chopping through. The ship would sink around the time when the water got too deep for them to chop the planking any more.

Good points. The Keel on a knarr is no wimpy thing. It's big. It runs the entire length of the ship. It would be difficult to chop through (in two places). Plus, as you say, there would be the framing to get through. And all those iron nails holding the planks together.


Maybe there's an auger in the carpenter's tool-chest? Bore a hole or two and get while the getting's good? Or maybe attack a strake along the waterline. Knorrs weren't very big, so I'm not sure you'd need a massive hole to flood it. That is ticklish business, scuttling a ship while one is still on it.

If the OP is also using Viking age technology, they did not have the inclined plane. To bore holes, they used what was basically a sharpened spoon. (Spoon bit.) Takes a while. An axe would be better and if there are Viking-armed fighters on the knarr, there would be axes.



There isn't much you can do to make a sailboat go faster. You can add more sail, but not with this sail plan, unless you have a reef in the sail.

Knars are single-masted, single sail ships. You can't add more sail unless, as you said, they'd taken a reef.



So the next option is to lighten the boat. You start throwing everything you can overboard. Obviously the easiest stuff goes first, and you tend to throw it over the leeward side of the boat (which will be a bit lower because of the ship's heel). Based upon what I can discover, these ships carried about 20 - 25 tons of freight. My guess is between fully laden and empty you'd probably see about a 20% or more increase in speed.

Yup. Depends on their freight. If this is an expedition of armed folks making off with the sarcophagus, they probably don't have a lot of cargo outside of it and their weapons. What do you say, efreysson?

Just occurred to me. Is this a stone sarcophagus? If it's wood, it will float, too, probably. They could throw over the stone lid. That ought to be pretty heavy. Can they throw over the contents of the thing?


Now if you look at the model, you'll notice that there are several ropes that hold up the mast, which are called stays. When you are sailing, some of the stays are loaded, and bearing the mast's pull, and other stays aren't loaded. Roughly speaking, the loaded stays are going to be to windward. The leeward stays will be doing nothing, and will actually be loose.

No block and tackle on a knarr using Viking era technology. No need. The sail and yard don't weigh that much. But the standing rigging (stays that hold up the mast) is going to get in the way of heaving the sarcophagus over. So getting rid of them would be a good thing if you want to tip it overboard.


Result is your mast goes over the side.

Oh, that would be fun. We broke our mast once. Not fun at all at the time.



They could always start a fire in the hold. Lamp oil, tar-soaked ropes, timber...

No hold. Also, the bits you want to burn are below the water line. Hard for a flame to keep going.



Seriously, can they just toss the thing overboard? Open vessels like a Knorr sink quickly, no air pockets. Unless it's made of something that floats of course.

Like wood? ;)
 

Peter Graham

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Ultragotha is quite right.

The Vikings were expert seafarers. Their boats were made to float and stay floating even if they took lots of water on board - which would have been fairly common given the seas they were sailing in. Unless the sarcophagus is incredibly dense, the boat could be full of water pretty much up to the gunwales and would still not head for Davy Jones.

Knocking holes in the bottom would not be that easy. They tended to use hardwoods like oak for the ribs, keel etc and if you've ever tried splitting seasoned oak with an axe, you'll know what I mean. Oak is worked green because when it seasons, it goes as hard as you like and is much, much more difficult to work.

Also bear in mind that many sailors probably couldn't swim.

Regards,

Peter
 

JayD

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If the sarcophagus is heavy enough, you can just drop it. A 2-ton chunk of stone dropped from the level of the deck would probably go straight through the hull if it hits end-first and not on the keel.

Of course, if they can lift it they can toss it overboard, but I'm sure that with the addition of slippery decks, high seas, and desperate people, you can make sure an accident happens.
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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If the idea is to destroy what's in the sarcophagus, they might wrest off the lid and toss the contents overboard. Don't know if that would work with the existing plot, though.

Hacking holes in the hull with axes could certainly work, given time. But you've got iron nails along each edge of the strakes (planks) every four inches or so to hack around. If the sarcophagus is heavy enough to bring the holey ship down with it, I'd wonder how on earth the crew got it into the ship (not to mention the ship would go so v e r y s l o o o w l y with all that weight).
 

jclarkdawe

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Of course if you could chop through the hull, you could probably shatter the stone as well. Unsupported stone succumbs to hammering the crap out of it. And probably easier then seasoned oak.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

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I work as a ship planner in my day job - it is my job to avoid the following: turn the ship into the wind and the wind will lean her over. The cargo in will shift after the lashings holding your sarcophagous come apart. The other cargo in the ship will shift as well (there must be more?) This will put the vessel right over so it takes on water. As it takes on more water the weight will cause it to go over and capsize. Throw some wave action in there to help them along.
It will sink; the wood they used was heavy oak and hard, (but it would go down slower than a steel ship.)
Put the sarcophagous ON DECK. That way the ship wll be more unstable.
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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It's really hard to sink a knarr. When the Danes sank five viking-style ships (three of them cargo or fishing vessels) to block the route to Roskilde in the 11th century, they not only had to hack holes in the bottom, they had to fill them with lots of rocks.

Here are some decent photos of a reproduction of a small knarr (Skuldalev 1) You can see the framing and also they have built a sort of shelter in front of the mast that could stand in for the sarcophagus. You can see how difficult it would be to get out of the ship. (Though the sail and yard wouldn't be there on top). Her displacement is 34 tons.

Also note there isn't an alternate option to having things on the deck. There's no hold on a knarr, only a deck built over the bilges.