Advice: To Take or Not To Take?

Aeslynn, I'm not sure your comment fits in with the thread you've made it in so I'm going to peel it out into its own thread and move it to the Round Table, where I think it's a better fit, once I've responded properly.

Aeslynn said:

It is sometimes better to query a small publisher instead of an agent, as the publisher will have time to focus on your novel and can work directly with you. Also, an agent takes a percentage (as they should, it's hard work!) from the percentage the publisher gives them, which could leave you with a lot less. This makes sense to me, but I'm worried that (as this is my first novel) I should be querying agents who can continually push my book to publishers with whom they have experience.

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You ask several good questions.

Small publishers are more likely than large publishers to accept unagented submissions. Many of them are wonderful publishers and will do their best for you. But many of them do not have the skills to publish you well, and many of them lack full distribution which means they won't be able to sell as many copies of your book as bigger publishers would.

If a good agent takes you on then they should have time to focus on your novel and sell it to the best possible place. Time and focus are not exclusive to small publishers: all good publishers work with their authors to ensure their books are the best that they can be; and if they don't, then having a good agent on your side will mean that you don't have to be the person making them do what they're meant to do.

Writers with agents usually make a significant amount more than those without--a lot more than they pay in commission to their agent--and represented authors are far more likely to enjoy sales of foreign and subsidiary rights than those without agents. And those extra sales can bring in a significant amount of money.

If you fail to get an agent you can then query publishers direct; but if you query publishers direct and don't get anywhere, then agents are going to be less likely to be interested in your book as you've reduced the number of publishers they'll be able to query for you.

That's a bit whistle-stop, but I hope that's a help.

Aeslynn said:

It is sometimes better to query a small publisher instead of an agent, as the publisher will have time to focus on your novel and can work directly with you. Also, an agent takes a percentage (as they should, it's hard work!) from the percentage the publisher gives them, which could leave you with a lot less. This makes sense to me, but I'm worried that (as this is my first novel) I should be querying agents who can continually push my book to publishers with whom they have experience.

Thoughts?

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To expand on what Old Hack said, most small publishers don't pay advances, and their sales aren't exactly burning up the joint.

Whereas an agent will send your work to the top publishers that DO pay advances and sell lots of books.

So let's just look at the 'advance' part of the equation.

With a small press, let's say you get a $500 advance. (And as I said, most don't pay advances at all. But for the sake of discussion, let's be generous.) You get $500.

Whereas with an agent, you get a $5,000 advance. (That's a bit on the low side, but not at all out of the realm for a debut author these days.) Subtract $750 for the agent's 15%, and you get $4,250.

Last time I looked, $500 < $4,250.

So this idea that an agent taking 15% leaves you with 'a lot less' is just plain bunk. It leaves you with only 85%, but of a much much bigger piece of pie.

Terie said:

So this idea that an agent taking 15% leaves you with 'a lot less' is just plain bunk. It leaves you with only 85%, but of a much much bigger piece of pie.

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Absolutely

I think it depends a lot on the book though -- if you've got something that's a bit niche, then a smaller pub might be a good way to go. (I started off with small presses and I learned sooooo much from being edited, learning about pace, what makes a good book)

But if you've got something that you think will have a broad appeal, then I'd go for agents.

I certainly wouldn't say don't go with agents because you'll earn less, because that's not essentially true (it may be true if your agent then subs to small presses -- ie if everything else is equal -- but then, why are they doing that?). However that's a choice for you to make, depending on what your aims are and what your MS is like.

My first question is "Were these author friends who gave you the advice published?" Second question: "Where were they published?" Third question: "Do you want to be published in the same places they were?" I'm not saying the advice doesn't make logical sense, and if you want what they have then by all means do what they do.

My first book is with a small press. Sure I'd like to hit it big, but for now I'm okay with being with small presses. But from what I've seen here, and the experience of many people on this site, starting with small presses to build up to getting a book with a Big Six publisher doesn't really work that well. And Terie is right, having an agent most likely increases your chances of getting a publisher who can sell more copies (not always true, of course, but most likely) so even with 15% less royalties you make up the difference. My book is with a small press because that's what was right for it based on input from people who know the business.

Aeslynn said:

I was recently at YALLfest, and I met four writers in the lobby of my hotel. One of them asked, "Where are you planning on going with your novel?"
I responded, "Once it's polished, I'm going to start querying agents."

All four of them told me this:

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And how many of them are published? How many of them are published by big publishers or have good agents?

A lot of folks are keen to give out advice but don't necessarily have the knowledge or experience to back it up.

It is sometimes better to query a small publisher instead of an agent, as the publisher will have time to focus on your novel and can work directly with you.

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Yes and no. At a big publisher you will be assigned and editor who will work directly with you too.

That said, some books are better suited to smaller presses which specialise in that genre or niche area. But if you are looking to build a writing career then why settle before you try?

Writing is one of those few professions where you start querying at the top and work your way down, not the other way around.

Also, an agent takes a percentage (as they should, it's hard work!) from the percentage the publisher gives them, which could leave you with a lot less.

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An agent usually takes about 15% - this leaves the author with 85%. However, an agent, especially a good one, will be able to broker a much better deal for you than you could yourself. So, compare 100% of the £2000 you might get from Small Press A against the 85% of £15,000 you might get from Big Publisher B.

In addition, agents are great at working out the kinks that might arise in terms of contracts etc. They really work for their money and it doesn't stop after the book has been sold either.

This makes sense to me, but I'm worried that (as this is my first novel) I should be querying agents who can continually push my book to publishers with whom they have experience.

Thoughts?

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It's really up to you in the end. But personally I think you should think about what you really want and then go for it.

Aeslynn said:

This makes sense to me, but I'm worried that (as this is my first novel) I should be querying agents who can continually push my book to publishers with whom they have experience.

Thoughts?

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this is exactly what you should be doing

Aeslynn said:

This makes sense to me, but I'm worried that (as this is my first novel) I should be querying agents who can continually push my book to publishers with whom they have experience.

Thoughts?

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Go with your gut.

I don't know your genre or your intended audience, but if the novel is commercial with wide appeal, an agent will be far more help than hindrance. In YA (which is my target audience) some of the biggest deals reported are first deals from new authors, but they wouldn't get those deals without an agent who knew who to send their novel to and how to pitch it.

Mr Flibble said:

I think it depends a lot on the book though -- if you've got something that's a bit niche, then a smaller pub might be a good way to go. (I started off with small presses and I learned sooooo much from being edited, learning about pace, what makes a good book)

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I don't think you meant to imply this, Mr Flibble, but it's possible someone might take this part of your post as an indication that one doesn't get edited with bigger presses. Which isn't true, of course. As I'm sure we all realise.

You've been given a lot of good advice. I'll add in a couple of more bits. First, give yourself a timeline, say a year or so to query agents, and then do your research and query as many as you can. Keep a record of who you query and when, because response times can range from a few weeks to a year to never. (no response means no)
Don't spend years querying it. Move on to publishers if you don't get the result you want.

Second, while you are querying, write something else. Many people, myself included, finish one book and concentrate so much on trying to get an agent or publisher, they put off writing something new. It's always better both for improving your writing skills and for improving your chances to have more than one manuscript done.

Yes, good advice throughout this thread. Small publishers are great, but if you have something that is highly commercial, it doesn't hurt to try agents first and see if you will be one of the lucky ones to land a big deal with your debut. If not, the small publishers will still be there, and an agent can help you negotiate a contract with one, if you so choose.

You may have received good advice, if you write literary novels of the type small presses specialize in, and large publishers usually ignore. But there is no good reason not to at least try agents and large publishers first. You can always target the small presses later.

And it isn't large publisher versus small publisher, of course. Publishers come in all sizes, not just large and small. Some mid-size publishers pay good advances, have very large sales numbers, but are still open to unagented writers. Many agents also ignore a good number of the mid-size publishers, simply because numbers are there.

And some small presses do pay advances, and do have pretty good sales numbers.

It's good to remember that the size of a publisher is often determined by how many books they release, and not necessarily because you can't hit the bestseller list with a book from a smaller publisher.

Old Hack said:

I don't think you meant to imply this, Mr Flibble, but it's possible someone might take this part of your post as an indication that one doesn't get edited with bigger presses. Which isn't true, of course. As I'm sure we all realise.

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Oops - I meant I learnt how to work with an editor - I lost my newby shiny glow, and also that my editor there taught me a HUGE amount about how to write well.

Which has stood me in good stead with my current editor. Who edits me tons (actually I have two editors at this pub, so double the red pen goodness!). It's just as personal and thorough etc as it was with my previous pubs - maybe more so as I have actually met my editor this time!

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

If you think you stand a chance with agents, query them first; they don't like to take clients who've already queried publishers. Old Hack and Terie have already summed up the advantages of having agents.

Smaller publishers may and may not give you more time and energy. Both of my books are with trade publishers. One put lots of effort into the editing, but I didn't see it until it was in proof form. The other didn't edit it at all (and believe it or not it has fewer typos than the one that was edited). That's my experience with trade publishers and editing.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Jamesaritchie said:

You may have received good advice, if you write literary novels of the type small presses specialize in, and large publishers usually ignore. But there is no good reason not to at least try agents and large publishers first. You can always target the small presses later.

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James, the big publishers publish loads of literary novels. You're mistaken here.

i think you got outdated, and questionable to begin with, advice. Never begin by selling low hoping to go up, shoot for the stars and drift back to earth if need be

And just to add what's been repeated hundreds of times on this board, a small pub doesn't mean it'll be an easier route for you to sell. Small pubs have to be even more selective with their resources. Best of luck!

Old Hack said:

James, the big publishers publish loads of literary novels. You're mistaken here.

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Yes, you're right, but I'm talking about those small, niche literary novels that have a tiny market share.

Big publishers do release a lot of literary novels, and I'm glad they do, but there is a type of literary novel that small presses specialize in, and that large publishers usually ignore because they just don't pull in enough market share.

I'm a first-timer and my agent has been worth her weight in gold and certainly worth the commission she's earned. First off, a currently selling agent's enthusiasm is a tremendous sign that you're at least ready to play. An agent might not sell your book, but this first endorsement is tremendously motivating.

Many agents will help develop the manuscript with some polishing suggestions. Once the manuscript is sold, you'll certainly be getting edited. I don't know how much editing is a lot or a little, but the idea that you won't have thorough editing on a sale through an agent is off the mark.

Perks said:

I'm a first-timer and my agent has been worth her weight in gold and certainly worth the commission she's earned.

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This. An experienced agent knows the ropes you can't even see, much less tug to any substantial effect. Not only did mine know exactly which editors would be sympatico with the MS, he kept on top of the long and nerve-wracking process of first editor talking to his boss, who had to talk to her boss, who had to talk to the publisher, etc. And when I saw all the contract boilerplate he crossed out and the more favorable language he substituted -- all stuff that would have gone over my head -- well, no way I'm grudging that 15%.

And the agent's job goes on and on, what with overseeing other rights sales and keeping track of advances and royalties from many different sources (one hopes. )

As others have said. start bold. If you're sure you've done the best work you can do and that your work meets the standards you see in well-published books, query and don't quit until you run out of agents.

Small presses are awesome at doing what small presses do.

Agents are awesome at doing what agents do.

You need to figure out what you want your book to do (and then, perhaps more realistically, what your book CAN do) and then go with whoever is awesome at that particular thing.

I have done both. There is a small press that I love dearly, we are buddies, we go birdwatching together, they edited my first novel with great passion, they put out my comics, and every now and again I get a check for a few hundred bucks, or now and again, a thousand. The books they sell are niche and appeal mostly to an existing fan base. I could probably even have self-published, but this way they do all the work (and do it much better than I ever could!) and THEY have to keep the backstock in the basement.

But I LIVE on the books that my agent sells. My editor at the Big Six-or-Five-or-Whatever is also awesome, and I sell more copies through them in a month than I have sold in the entire six or seven years I have been with said small press buddies. And I would pay my agent twice what I do, quite happily, except that she wouldn't take it because there are industry standards and the other agents would give her Very Stern Looks when they found out.

Figure out where you want your book to go, and then figure out who can put it there.*

*Subject to all caveats about some things being perfectly good without mass market appeal, burlap lingerie, etc.

Chris P said:

My first question is "Were these author friends who gave you the advice published?" Second question: "Where were they published?"

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These are good questions to ask, which points up something important about advice: it often reflects the experience and biases of the people giving it. The advice these writers gave you may reflect their best thoughts given their own experiences--but their publication journeys may not reflect the publication journey you want for yourself.

As has already been pointed out many times, a good agent will likely get you more money than you could get on your own (offsetting the caveats about her percentage), and can be worth her worth in gold not just in placing your first novel, but in providing career development advice and in marketing subsidiary rights. As has also been suggested, you can always start by searching for an agent, and consider submitting to small presses if your agent search doesn't work out--whereas if you go to small presses first (especially if the press doesn't pay an advance), the agent is probably off the table until your next book.

Don't be afraid to aim high. I think first-time writers often sell themselves short by setting their goal bar too low--often because they've been told, or have come to believe, that first-timers are less desirable than established writers. This truly isn't so.

- Victoria

Jamesaritchie said:

Yes, you're right, but I'm talking about those small, niche literary novels that have a tiny market share.

Big publishers do release a lot of literary novels, and I'm glad they do, but there is a type of literary novel that small presses specialize in, and that large publishers usually ignore because they just don't pull in enough market share.

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I'm not sure there's a type of literary novel that small presses specialise in: surely the issue here is that each imprint has its own speciality regardless of the size of the publisher concerned?

I've seen big publishers and small publish the sort of intensely literary books that I favour: I'm not convinced that the ones by smaller publishers have a specific flavour which the larger ones lack.

Old Hack said:

I'm not sure there's a type of literary novel that small presses specialise in: surely the issue here is that each imprint has its own speciality regardless of the size of the publisher concerned?

I've seen big publishers and small publish the sort of intensely literary books that I favour: I'm not convinced that the ones by smaller publishers have a specific flavour which the larger ones lack.

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Maybe, but if a book lacks market share, large publishers generally won't touch it. Maybe "type" is the wrong word, but market share matters, and is the number one reason large publishers reject many well-written novels.

Most purely literary novelists start with small presses, prove they can generate a reasonable market share, and then get picked up by large publishers.

The typical literary writer has a tough time starting with a large publisher, and some of, in my opinion, the best literary writers out there never progress to large publishers because their books simply don't generate enough sales.

It seems to me one would have to try agents first. Small presses these days can't really sell books much better than just self-publishing can do. In my opinion.