PDA

View Full Version : forms of martial arts/ one-on-one combat



McMich
11-08-2012, 10:24 PM
So I have a female character that is training for one-on-one fights. She is strong (but still only a girl) but never trained for anything like this before- typical 17 yr old girl. She has one month to train and knows who the opponents will be (all men ages 15-35).

What forms of combat/ martial arts would be the most beneficial to train her?

Siri Kirpal
11-08-2012, 10:33 PM
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

It's been awhile since I've done aikido, but it does involve using the assailants' own force to overcome them. Might be worth looking into.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

alleycat
11-08-2012, 10:33 PM
I have a female friend who does Krav Maga, a form of martial arts developed in Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

I'm thinking KM might be more helpful for someone with a short time frame than some of the other martial arts. They still wouldn't become experts, but they could use some of the techniques.

Drachen Jager
11-08-2012, 10:34 PM
Akido is one of the most effective for a weaker fighter. Brazilian jiu-jitsu is very effective as well, but both take years of training before they're really effective.

I suppose if she trained 12 hours a day, with really excellent trainers she could learn enough in a month to be pretty effective.

If you want to look at examples, I recommend you look up Joyce Gracie, for Brazilian jiu-jitsu, one of the top modern-day practitioners. That'll give you an idea of the style. I can't think of any actual applied Akido fights you could look at, but Steven Segal did a lot of theatrical fights, back when he was an action star.

Drachen Jager
11-08-2012, 10:37 PM
I have a female friend who does Krav Maga, a form of martial arts developed in Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

Krav Maga isn't really about one on one fistfights. Most of the training revolves around dealing with armed opponents and such. For one-on-one cagematch-style fighting, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is probably the best form available, especially for a fighter who is likely to be outweighed and/or outmuscled.

Torgo
11-08-2012, 10:44 PM
Another vote for Brazilian jiu-jitsu, unless you get to use weapons, in which case escrima.

Summonere
11-08-2012, 11:43 PM
What kind of fights? Are these rules-based competitions? Fights to the death? Seems that would change matters.


If the former, I prefer grappling. If the latter, I like silat and escrima.

McMich
11-09-2012, 01:17 AM
thanks for all the quick responses. jiu-jitsu and akido look promising. you gotta love youtube for having videos to help visualize things like these.
More info:
It would not be fight to the death but rather, fight until someone quits or is incapacitated. Death would be best avoidable as all the people fighting will be the heads or next in line for several rich families.

Cyia
11-09-2012, 01:32 AM
.

What forms of combat/ martial arts would be the most beneficial to train her?

Honestly? The attitude of her opponents if it's anything like the assumption that "only a girl" means "at a disadvantage."

She may not have the muscle mass of a 30 year old man, but agility and speed are likely on her side. And if she's small, it's actually an advantage. There's a reason gymnasts are compact - it works for fighters, too.

Amadan
11-09-2012, 01:33 AM
You have to study aikido for a very long time (longer than most styles) to become truly combat effective with it.

Braziliian jujutsu is probably the best choice for one-on-one unarmed combat. Its disadvantage is that BJJers typically don't train a lot in defending against armed attacks, or multiple assailants.

I have a black belt in Japanese jujutsu. It's similar to Brazilian style (common origins), but we don't emphasize ground-fighting as much. BJJ fighters assume that all fights will wind up on the ground.

profen4
11-09-2012, 01:55 AM
Hmm, a month really isn't very long at all. I hope you give her a background in something complimentary: i.e. gymnastics or dance or something else where flexibility and cardiovascular conditioning and coordination are well developed.

That said, I've studied a few martial arts and I think her best bet would be a combination of aikijutsu and boxing. You need her to be fast and ruthless and dirty. She needs to break bones and totally incapacitate with her first opportunity. She needs to doge punches b/c it really would only take one blow from someone who's got 25-75 lbs on her to stun her enough to finish her off - if that's the goal.

Boxers are incredible fighters on their feet, and they're quick. Akijutsu is really mean stuff (bone breaking stuff). Aikido can be brutal like that too. But you need her trainer to have an emphasis on capture/destroy rather than capture/comply.

There is a common saying in martial arts: "How you train is how you fight" and I believe that's often true. Kyokushin-kai Karate, which is the style I most enjoy and have trained in the longest, is considered especially brutal in Japan b/c they fight without pads and full contact without pulling any punches. They train the way they'd want to fight in real life.
quan lot nam goi cam (http://doxinh.com/danh-muc/do-lot-nam/quan-lot-nam/) do ngu nu cao cap (http://doxinh.com.vn/danh-muc/do-ngu/do-ngu-nu/) may hut sua (http://doxinh.vn/danh-muc/do-dung-cho-me/may-hut-sua/) ao so mi nu (http://trangbanbuon.com/danh-muc/thoi-trang-cong-so/ao-so-mi-cong-so/) thoi trang cong so (http://trangbanbuon.vn/danh-muc/thoi-trang-cong-so/) cho thue trang phuc bieu dien (http://roses.vn/studio/cho-thue-trang-phuc/)
But like I said, one month is really not a lot of time.

BDSEmpire
11-09-2012, 02:07 AM
She has a month?

Training cardio so she can run like a deer would probably be a good use of that time.

I don't mean to be depressing or morbid but unless you were to give her years of training I don't see this ending well at all. I assume you want her to survive the fights, yes? Fleeing them or running her opponents round and round till they get tired is a viable tactic. If she gets grabbed she's going to get grievously hurt.

I was reading up on domestic violence stats recently and there's some pretty interesting studies that show both men and women commit nearly equal levels of domestic abuse when you account for all acts of violence - not just the ones being reported. The main problem is that when men strike back they tend to cause huge amounts of damage compared to women. This holds pretty well with the general notion that men are big and strong, women are fast and small that you get by looking around any large city. There are anomalies all over the place but the average tends to favor men for muscle mass and women for speed.

Then again, if you have a Hunger Games / Thunderdome / Gladiator-style arena combat that is inevitable, you might want to consider taking those same assumptions into account and giving your female MC a helping hand. A sympathetic pit veteran slips her a pointed stick. What can she do with a stick? Now she's got reach and a hard object that can drop a dude with the right amount of force - and it's well within her capabilities to do that.

She's dropped some ogre of a guy, was he carrying anything helpful? Pick it up! Not a sword, mind you, that takes years of practice and a lot of arm strength to wield effectively but a spear might be laying around and though that takes some strength to thrust it takes hardly any effort to put the butt end in the ground and let some overconfident fool rush right onto the pointy end.

It's not a foregone conclusion that a girl is going to die immediately in your arena if she keeps her wits about her, uses the environment and her physical abilities to her advantage and keeps well out of arm reach of these guys. When in doubt, kick for the groin and then run away.

Joemassaro
11-09-2012, 02:08 AM
So I have a female character that is training for one-on-one fights. She is strong (but still only a girl) but never trained for anything like this before- typical 17 yr old girl. She has one month to train and knows who the opponents will be (all men ages 15-35).

What forms of combat/ martial arts would be the most beneficial to train her?


It depends on how long she has to train. Training takes years. She can train in any number of traditional and non traditional martial arts and specialize based on her build and frame. Women do tend to specialize in forms that use the opponent's body and movement against them. Most women are at a mass disadvantage to men. I imagine she will be at an even greater disadvantage against trained male fighters. And contrary to popular belief, a beefy muscle man is NOT slow. He can be quite fast and agile, particularly if he's had the right training. It's the same mistake people make when they see a really fit looking guy who hits the gym everyday. He may just have what is called a "gym body." Meaning, he's in good shape, but his muscled are not trained to perform specific activities.

Now, if you don't have a lot of time to train or want to give her a way to fast track her training, go for a street fighter. She has practical experience and fights dirty (no such thing as a fair fight). With those two qualities and some luck, she might squeak by. You can also take her street learned talents and build on them. In this way, she isn't a complete novice to fighting, just formal training.
Joe

Cyia
11-09-2012, 02:20 AM
Women generally inflict less damage than men - not because of ability - but rather social conditioning. Girls are taught to be "nice" and "not hit." That translates even to life or death situations. I've heard self-defense instructors tell stories of 2nd and 3rd degree blackbelts who've been assaulted because they pulled their punches.

However, if it's not a setting where that's been drummed into the character, and she spends ALL her time training so that fighting's what's foremost in her mind, then one of her greatest disadvantages disappears.

Women can be brutal fighters, and often are when they "snap" in a domestic abuse situation. That same ability is always there so long as the person is willing to tap into it.

Nekko
11-09-2012, 02:26 AM
I have a black belt in Japanese jujutsu. It's similar to Brazilian style (common origins), but we don't emphasize ground-fighting as much. BJJ fighters assume that all fights will wind up on the ground.

I study JuJitsu (NOT Brazilian, which is only half, at best, of what there is to know about jujitsu). True we don't fight as long on the ground because we understand the physics/mechanics of the arts and know how to incapacitate our opponents. (Momo Jime is a ground art meant to quickly crush floating ribs and hopefully puncture a lung, not just hold them to you so you can beat the crap out of them,which is what you see in cage fighting.)

As a short woman who works out with men I can attest to it being an excellent martial art for your MC to use. A month is short, but if she has a good teacher, and puts in several hours a day, she can certainly learn enough to protect herself, and do him some harm (more harm if he doesn't know JuJitsu and how to protect himself.)

If a large, muscular man came at me I could use his force to throw him, possibly even breaking his neck (if he didn't know how to fall). I can easily feint a strike, or use it to move into something that restrains or breaks something. We also do some (limited) training in defenses against gun and knife attacks.

McMich
11-09-2012, 05:00 AM
thanks everyone for the responses. It gives me lots of good ideas and more to look up on youtube.

glutton
11-09-2012, 05:44 AM
Curious, do the men have more experience than her or are they all similarly inexperienced?

Amadan
11-09-2012, 05:47 AM
Curious, do the men have more experience than her or are they all similarly inexperienced?


That's a good question. Because there really is no martial arts training in the world that will make an untrained person a match for bigger, stronger, more experienced fighters in a month. (If there were, every martial artist would take that training instead of the styles they study!)

glutton
11-09-2012, 05:53 AM
That's a good question. Because there really is no martial arts training in the world that will make an untrained person a match for bigger, stronger, more experienced fighters in a month. (If there were, every martial artist would take that training instead of the styles they study!)

Yeah if it was a 17 year old normal girl with one month of training against experienced males in their 20's and 30's, that would be quite unbelievable... unless the story's a violent cartoon like some of mine are, but even in those the 17 year old female war machines have usually been battling big men and bigger monsters for years lol.

Johncs
11-09-2012, 06:05 AM
What forms of combat/ martial arts would be the most beneficial to train her?

If there's a skill gap (aka newbie vs those with years in), then it's not a question of what, but who.

A good corner man(person) with a lifetime of tricks (dirty or not) up their sleeve can turn a dedicated beginner into a contender. The Eastwood role in Million Dollar Baby comes to mind.

Mark Jacobs
11-09-2012, 06:06 AM
Thought Iíd chime in here since Iíve responded to these threads before and itís more or less my area of expertise (Iím a contributing editor at Black Belt Magazine and the author of The Principles of Unarmed Combat). Without knowing more specifics about the scenario you have in mind (rules on the use of weapons or illegal techniques, how winners are declared, etc.) itís difficult to offer too many suggestions. But to address a few points that other people have made:

If youíre looking for any level of realism, a normal sized woman is not going to get enough from one month of training to defeat the average man in a fight short of catching him by surprise, such as kicking him in the groin when heís not expecting it. Of course, if she has to fight another opponent after this, and heís paying attention, such ploys will become increasingly difficult to use effectively. The style of fighting she learns wonít matter very much as one month is simply not enough time to acquire any significant skill and the average woman is going to be smaller and weaker than the average man. This is assuming you are making her of average size with no prior physical training and her opponents are not complete wimps or fools.

That being said, it is fiction and you can always make it as unrealistic as you choose. While there is no one ďbestĒ martial art, if you insist on having her train in a martial art for a brief time to give her an advantage, the most effective one would depend on the nature of the rules you would be employing for the fights and what the skills of the opponents are. However, certain martial arts, despite what others have claimed, would not generally be very effective. Aikido, while a beautiful martial art to practice, is not typically regarded by serious close quarter combat experts as a practical martial art for fighting. Classical Japanese ju-jutsu (not Brazilian jiu-jitsu) was largely designed to be performed as a supplement to armed combat, often employing the use of a knife or other weapons and only being used empty handed as a last resort when you had lost all your own weapons.

Perhaps the most (semi) realistic way to make such a scenario partially believable is to mirror what was done in the early Ultimate Fighting Championships tournaments. These events were largely dominated by grapplers (Brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioners as well as shootwrestlers and sambo practitioners) who won matches by simply dragging their opponents - often larger, stronger men who were skilled in stand up fighting but had little experience in ground fighting - to the floor and turning the matches into pure ground fighting battles. They were able to more effectively employ leverage and use submission holds such as chokes or straight armlocks, which required less pure size and strength to perform effectively than many standing techniques do. This, of course, would mean your main character would train intensively in the basics of one of these grappling styles while her male opponents would have no real knowledge of or skill in groundfighting. It would also probably mean rules which precluded the use of biting or eye gouging, which tend to make employing groundfighting maneuvers far more difficult (though there is at least one style I know of called Hkyen, which comes from Myanmar/Burma, that does make extensive use of biting techniques to go along with its grappling).

Hope some of that helped.

Drachen Jager
11-09-2012, 07:25 AM
There's a reason gymnasts are compact - it works for fighters, too.

No it doesn't. It takes many many years of hard training for a smaller person to be able to take a larger person, and even then there are limits. No skinny little girl is going to be able to take on a competent, fit man.

The idea that size doesn't matter much in a fight is a myth propagated by bad movies and video games.

Cyia
11-09-2012, 07:34 AM
Actually, it's a matter of torque ratios in the limbs.

glutton
11-09-2012, 07:36 AM
Actually, it's a matter of torque ratios in the limbs.

There are limits though. A 115 fit as hell girl is going to have a hell of a time against a trained 6'4, 250 pound man.

profen4
11-09-2012, 08:46 AM
There are limits though. A 115 fit as hell girl is going to have a hell of a time against a trained 6'4, 250 pound man.

It needn't be even that great. Just look at how martial arts are divided into weight classes: generally separating fighters by 10-20 lb differences. It's done because of what a significant advantage that extra weight is to the fighter, and it is significant.

MttStrn
11-09-2012, 08:52 AM
it depends. When both combatants are trained, it usually just comes down to size and luck. Size is not as big a factor when one of the fighters is not trained. That said, one month is just not enough time to become that effective a fighter. You can learn tricks and stuff but there's also the mind set. Getting used to hitting and getting hit.

glutton
11-09-2012, 08:53 AM
It needn't be even that great. Just look at how martial arts are divided into weight classes: generally separating fighters by 10-20 lb differences. It's done because of what a significant advantage that extra weight is to the fighter, and it is significant.

I used a huge difference to get the point across better. Even a same sized man would have a decent physical advantage on average due to more fast twitch muscle, lower body fat, testosterone, etc.

Unless it's pure escapist fantasy, I do have 5'4 140 lb girls in my stories who can beat the everloving shit out of 7' 350 armored guys with their bare fists, but those would be the same girls who can rip a bear's jaws apart etc... ie. clearly not normal.

Trebor1415
11-09-2012, 10:59 AM
What Mark Jacobs said, especially this:

"If youíre looking for any level of realism, a normal sized woman is not going to get enough from one month of training to defeat the average man in a fight short of catching him by surprise, such as kicking him in the groin when heís not expecting it. Of course, if she has to fight another opponent after this, and heís paying attention, such ploys will become increasingly difficult to use effectively. The style of fighting she learns wonít matter very much as one month is simply not enough time to acquire any significant skill and the average woman is going to be smaller and weaker than the average man."

I agree that a month is not nearly long enough for her to learn anything useful. The only exception would be if she was fighting other teenagers who were similiar in size/weight and also untrained. Then it might be a contest as who could go from zero to learning *something* in a month. But, against a range, including adult males who are bigger, stronger, and likely more experienced than her? Nothing she can do in a month would really help.

I can think of one exception, but it likely won't work in your world. If there's *any* supernatural/magical reason she could be a better fighter or be stronger or hardier than she should be, than I could buy the scenario. I'm talking something like Buffy being the "Chosen one" vampire slayer with powers that make it more believable that such a waif could fight vampires and humans and win. Like I said though, I don't know if that works in your universe.

glutton
11-09-2012, 04:57 PM
One way you could make it more believable (while keeping the fictional world's rule re: male vs female physicality consistent with our own's) is for her to already be a high school wrestler before this other training and have her male opponents not have any wrestling experience. It's hard to stop a takedown without training for it (unless you're vastly bigger/stronger maybe), and you can get hurt falling on a hard surface, or especially if she slams them.

StormChord
11-13-2012, 08:09 AM
I'd like to offer myself up as an example for how this can work out for a girl of her age. I don't have the blank-slate background in martial arts that your character does - I learned Tai Chi starting around age eight, and I did gymnastics for several years - but I hope that it still works.
I'm a sixteen-year-old girl; I trained in Shotokan karate and personally didn't have much trouble keeping up with the boys in my class. It was very block-then-counter based, which turned the matches into more of a back-and-forth than a contest of brute strength. Unfortunately, this raises a problem of believability, as karate is typically sold as a more strength-based form, so your audience might find it hard to believe that your character could keep up with a bunch of trained grown men.

On the other hand, if weaponry is allowed, I'd like to second the vote for escrima.

Monkey
11-14-2012, 05:30 AM
I'm 5'1, 114 pounds. I started training in martial arts when I was about fifteen years old.

When I walked into the class, I didn't even know how to make a fist properly. I'd beaten some of the neighborhood boys in fights out of sheer brutality and an unwillingness to go down (or to respond to pain.) But I was far outclassed by the guys who'd been training, especially the ones who were considerably larger/older than myself.

The general attitude was NOT to take it easy on me. It was either to patronizingly refuse to fight at all, or to fight me twice as hard as they would have fought a male of my size and rank. They were NOT going to be beaten - or even take hits, if they could avoid it - from a girl. Some used the excuse that they were going to hurt me early, before I got in too deep and someone really messed me up... but of course, that was utter bullshit, and pisses me off to this day.

Their attitude did nothing but make me angry and determined.

Here's something you might use: different people respond to pain differently, and even to different KINDS of pain differently. "Impact-type" pain doesn't really bother me - being slammed against the ground, body-checked, or whatnot hardly slows me even if I get the wind knocked out of me. "Slap-type" pain - where it stings but nothing goes crunch - really feeds into my adrenaline. I almost enjoy it. "Crunch-type" pain, where the bone hits the bone and something's got to give, I try to avoid at all costs - sometimes by jumping or allowing myself to fall backwards as the blow comes in - this leaves their fist/foot/elbow/whatever following my own momentum back and takes some of the "crunch factor" out.

With one month to train, your girl is going to have to have excellent instincts and be in very good shape. The men she trains against should not be trained fighters... because if they are, she's not going to learn more in a month than they've learned in years, unless there's something supernatural/hinky going on. She may also know a few dirty little tricks - pressure points, for instance. One of my favorites was taught to me by an Army Ranger:

Put your finger in the corner of your eye right where it meets the top of your nose, covering the tear duct. Gently press in. Feel how the eyeball moves? You can push a finger all the way into someone's skull there - the eye will just move right aside. By cupping your finger behind the eye, you can actually pop that sucker right out. It doesn't hurt much, but an opponent who has this happen to them - especially in a match rather than a life-or-death street brawl - is likely to want OUT of that fight. BUT... if you cup your finger the other way, you can actually grab ahold of the person's skull. Your finger goes in the eye socket and behind the nose, toward the other eye. Once you've got a grip on them, you can pull their head toward your other fist as you pound them. Once again, it's "ick-factor" more than anything that makes your opponent want to quit... but most DO want to quit at that point.

This would get your girl kicked out of most matches.

A similar tactic:

Reach up and grip your own voice box with all four fingers on one side and your thumb on the other. Do it low, toward the collarbone. Press in. You should feel a kind of sickly, gaggy feeling. On an opponent, you can dig those fingers in so deep they seem to go behind the voicebox... and when they're as deep as they can go, try to push your thumb and fingers together. The throat will often begin to seize up in a rhythmic fashion, chocking your opponent even after you withdraw. The entire move takes about half a second, but works best when your opponent is already against the floor or wall - otherwise you can end up just pushing them back by the throat. Still hurts, but not as bad.

Easier: Hit that little divot at the very base of the throat as hard as you can with one or two fingers... preferably when your opponent is against the ground or wall already.

Your girl should know choke holds and arm/leg breaks. But don't forget that fingers are also easily broken. Anyone who grabs for her or comes at her with an open hand is putting themselves at risk... and once she breaks a bone, she shouldn't let go, she should twist and grind and jerk on that sucker.

Most fighters have had their noses broken several times. My whole frickin' face is on crooked. It might make a fighter LOOK tough, but the truth is, an oft-broken nose is easier to break. She should try to break the noses of anyone who looks as though they've had it done before... the pain isn't too bad, but it often makes the eyes water which makes it harder for her opponent to see. Likewise, she could use her thumbnail in a swipe that crosses the eye or just over the eye - foreheads bleed like crazy, and it's hard to fight with blood in your eyes.

I once had a friend, about 6'4, 200-some-odd-pounds, who laughed and said that yeah, I knew knew martial arts, but when it came right down to it, I'd never be able to do shit to a guy like him. He was standing near a picnic table. I ran directly toward him. He dropped his weight down a bit and put his arms out in front of him. But at the last second, I let my stride carry me to the side rather than straight ahead. My outside foot landed on the bench of the picnic table, and I sprung past him, up high, with one arm outstretched - I clotheslined him (hit him right in the throat with my outstretched arm.) He was so big that he didn't budge, and my momentum actually swung me around behind him... so as I came around, I bent the arm that was already across his throat, grabbed it with my other hand, and slapped on a sleeper hold. He hit the ground unconscious before he had a chance to realize what I was even doing.

** All this is not to say I'm fearless. **

Fighting is scary as hell, especially if it's for real. You NEVER know if you're going to come out alive, much less win. Even in a match, shit happens. Bones break. You screw up. The better fighter will usually win... but you can never count on it.

And size and weight ARE SERIOUS ADVANTAGES. You can still win against a larger, stronger opponent... but in the real world, when that happens, it's usually because you made your opponent decide that the fight wasn't worth it, not because you beat them down. If you can put them unconscious, great... now GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE.

Ah... but I digress. Hopefully, there's something in there you can use. Good luck on writing this one. :)

ETA: Upon reading my post, I thought I should mention that I've been in exactly one tournament, and I was thrown out of it. If this is a tournament, perhaps you could make it judged by points... that would take away a lot of the size/weight benefits for the guys, because "unnecessary brutality" will get them booted. (Apparently, it can get you booted anyway, grumble grumble.)

StormChord
11-15-2012, 05:19 AM
Monkey makes an excellent point about different kinds of pain having different effects on her. For me personally, blunt force - like a bodyslam - doesn't really slow me down, while a stinging strike isn't that bad either. I am weak to jabs and other high-pressure strokes, though.

Once you work out what kind of pain will shut her down, you can choose a martial art centered around avoiding that kind of pain.

Drachen Jager
11-15-2012, 06:44 AM
I find with 'tricks' you have to be very careful about what you try to translate from the dojo into real life.

For example, not many people are going to sit still long enough that you can grab their skull by their eye sockets. If you have that kind of control over the opponent you don't need those tricks to win, just smash their nose flat, that'll take the fight out of anybody.

I had a friend who took Ninjitsu classes, he had all kinds of tricks. He once told me he could break out of a full nelson. I seriously came within an inch of breaking his neck by accident when he tried it. It was a sudden body move on his part, and when I followed, almost my full weight was pushed against his neck, because I'd laced my fingers I couldn't even get out of the grip very quickly.

Most 'tricks' only work if you catch your opponent flat-footed. If she's in a straight up fight that's never going to happen. There are a few they teach in Women's self-defense classes that might work though. Crushing your heel on your opponent's foot, then kneeing him in the crotch is effective (you have to do something to distract him, every guy naturally defends his privates if he's confronting a woman).

Monkey
11-15-2012, 06:28 PM
Drachen, each of the techniques I mentioned I have used in a serious fight (not a match) and/or have seen someone I know use in a serious fight, with the exception of clothes lining my friend (we weren't serious.) None require an opponent to "stand still.' You used the eye hook as an example, so let me clarify: If you can punch someone in the eye, you can poke them in the eye. If you can poke them in the eye, you can do the move I mentioned. How long do you really think it takes to bend your finger at the knuckle?

I have sleepered people in serious conflict, too, but the opportunity for a flying clothes line off a picnic bench doesn't come that often. ;)

Drachen Jager
11-15-2012, 09:16 PM
If you can punch someone in the eye, you can poke them in the eye. If you can poke them in the eye, you can do the move I mentioned.

Yes, but can you punch someone in the eye and hit exactly where you're aiming 9 times in 10 or better? Not if they're in the fight, nobody can. Things are too chaotic in a real fight to target things that accurately. Even if you could get it right 9 times in 10, that 10th time you miss and catch another part of their face you run a serious risk of breaking your thumb.

It's a dumb move. As I said before, if you can pull a move like that, you're far better off going for a straight punch and crushing their nose. That takes the fight out of anyone, for at least long enough you can subdue/kill them, without the risks involved with going for the eye.

Monkey
11-15-2012, 11:17 PM
Things are too chaotic in a real fight to target things that accurately.

Meh. You miss sometimes, but no, you don't break your thumb - thumb's not even in the picture. You just jab them in the face. Big deal. And really? You don't think you could do this in a GRAPPLE? Because let me tell you... for a woman, when we seriously have to fight, we're not usually facing some guy who's dropped back into a fighting stance or someone who's coming in "swimming," but someone who's actually GRABBED HOLD OF US.



It's a dumb move.

Sorry you don't like it. I do.


As I said before, if you can pull a move like that, you're far better off going for a straight punch and crushing their nose. That takes the fight out of anyone, for at least long enough you can subdue/kill them, without the risks involved with going for the eye.

You really think a broken nose takes the fight out of anyone? As someone who can't even remember how many times I've had my nose broken, I'm a bit surprised that anyone who's fought seriously can say that. It's bloody, but it's sure as hell not a fight stopper. Hit right, it can make the eyes water, which makes fighting harder... otherwise, it's the least of your worries. I pretty much EXPECT to get my nose broken when I get into a serious fight. Don't you?

(And I'm going to laugh if you say you block. Crap slips in. Always.)

glutton
11-16-2012, 01:44 AM
On the nose thing he might mean when he fights average Joes and not total hardasses.

StormChord
11-16-2012, 02:39 AM
I've never broken my nose (which should tell you the level of fights I've been in) but it really doesn't sound like it would stop somebody who was serious about the fight.

And personally, I think the eyeball thing sounds both disgusting and effective.

Smiling Ted
11-16-2012, 03:46 AM
Speaking as a writer, not a fighter (much)-

The big message that shines through here is that a teen-age girl with a month to train is very unlikely to beat a succession of older men...IN A FIGHTING COMPETITION. Anything with rules automatically gives the advantage to muscle, size, and long-term training.

If you want your MC to win believably, or even just stay on her feet, the situation should probably be something other than a traditional fighting match.

And as a side note, I have studied Krav Maga, and the emphasis wasn't on disarming an opponent (although there was some of that); it was on simple, easy-to-learn kicks and punches, and developing conditioning and the proper mental attitude. Not a bad choice for a month of training. (Not enough to make your MC the equal of a well-trained fighter, but better than nothing.)

Hope that helps.

Amadan
11-16-2012, 04:32 AM
You really think a broken nose takes the fight out of anyone?


Yeah, that was my reaction. Drachen Jager has never been in a real fight if he thinks breaking the nose is a fight-stopper.

Cyia
11-16-2012, 07:35 AM
Just a thought, but OP, is it possible that your character had some self-defense or martial arts training as a child, but then dropped it around age 9 or 10, so there's a gap in her training? You might be able to sell the idea of muscle memory if she does an intensive training course for a month or so. There'd be a little hand waving involved, but much less than someone starting cold.

Drachen Jager
11-16-2012, 10:01 AM
Yeah, that was my reaction. Drachen Jager has never been in a real fight if he thinks breaking the nose is a fight-stopper.

Yeah, maybe if that's what I actually said.

Monkey may have had her nose broken. I can see from the picture though that it's never been badly broken. I didn't even say 'break' and I didn't say it would stop the fight. I said crush, and I said it would slow them down enough for you to finish the fight. The only cases where that may not be true is with someone seriously doped up, or with serious training.

How many 'real' fights have you been in to think that eye-gouge punch dealie would actually prove effective? Get serious.

Amadan
11-16-2012, 05:36 PM
Yeah, maybe if that's what I actually said.

Monkey may have had her nose broken. I can see from the picture though that it's never been badly broken. I didn't even say 'break' and I didn't say it would stop the fight. I said crush, and I said it would slow them down enough for you to finish the fight. The only cases where that may not be true is with someone seriously doped up, or with serious training.

How many 'real' fights have you been in to think that eye-gouge punch dealie would actually prove effective? Get serious.


No, dude, I'm not gonna whip mine out so we can compare.

glutton
11-16-2012, 05:45 PM
Yeah, maybe if that's what I actually said.

Monkey may have had her nose broken. I can see from the picture though that it's never been badly broken. I didn't even say 'break' and I didn't say it would stop the fight. I said crush, and I said it would slow them down enough for you to finish the fight. The only cases where that may not be true is with someone seriously doped up, or with serious training.

How many 'real' fights have you been in to think that eye-gouge punch dealie would actually prove effective? Get serious.

How consistently can you crush the nose in one strike though?

Cyia
11-16-2012, 06:47 PM
How many 'real' fights have you been in to think that eye-gouge punch dealie would actually prove effective? Get serious.

Dude - did you not see the part about WHO taught Monkey that "eye-gouge punch dealie?" It was AN ARMY RANGER. They don't learn "dealies" for giggles. It's an effective move, or it wouldn't be part of their combat training.

Amadan
11-16-2012, 06:55 PM
Gouging an eye (especially while being grappled) is much easier than crushing a nose. You don't see it much in grappling arts like Brazilian jujutsu because they usually restrict themselves to sports-style rules to avoid injury. (You can only simulate eye-gouges in training - it's not like getting your nose broken, which is painful but not permanently disabling).

Monkey
11-17-2012, 01:50 AM
I choose pics that de-emphasise how crooked my nose is, and for that matter, that show less of my scars (two large ones on my face.) I tend to tilt my head so you can't see that one side of my upper lip is larger than the other. I'm actually kind of happy that you don't think it looks that bad... LOL. But I posted because I was a small female who has fought men and boys her whole life, not because I wanted to enter a dick-swinging contest with anyone. If the OP has any questions, I'll be available via PM, I guess.

McMich
11-17-2012, 04:42 PM
thanks everyone for the comments and thanks monkey for all the details. It give me more ideas and I didn't even think about pain tolerance. (I have absolutely no tolerance for any kind of pain- but my daughter is fearless) I didn’t even consider that.

I'll have to work more into the story to make it advantageous for my protagonist, but this gives me lots more to work with. Thanks everyone.

Melanie Dawn
11-17-2012, 10:12 PM
Jeet Kun Do

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

— Bruce Lee

kaitie
11-17-2012, 10:37 PM
I just saw this and wanted to throw in my two cents. :tongue

As others said, one month to train is not realistically possible unless she's already very athletic and has a background that can translate easily--and even then one month is nothing, especially if she's going up against trained fighters.

I've seen people come in to class and in six months be pretty darn decent, but those are very talented and people who have had a background in something like gymnastics or dance.

The biggest problem with first beginning, in my experience, is that the first few weeks are about learning to even begin to use your body. You aren't flexible, strong, and you don't know how to hold your body in the right way or tell it to do what you want it to. If she's trained in something else and already has control of her body, she'll be a faster learner, but a month is still kind of ridiculous. I'm not sure the average reader would care as movies tend to just do a montage that implies people are experts in no time, but in real life it just doesn't work that way.

Jiu jitsu might be a good one as mentioned above, but you might also want to consider kung fu. I'm not sure about the rules, but you play dirty in kung fu (at least what we're training--we don't do competition fighting). Punches and kicks to the crotch, for instance, and there is a strong defensive element to it. Deflect and use their movements to get in and do more damage than they do.

The thing is a grown man with several years of training under his belt is going to be faster and stronger than she is. She isn't going to be as good at reading his movements unless she has a strong background in this sort of thing. She'll have a harder time deflecting, and depending on how the men are trained, if they're taught (like I am) to keep coming even if you're blocked, it would be really tough for her to win.

Not sure if this helps much, but just something to consider. I'd have a hard time maintaining suspension of disbelief if she didn't get her ass handed to her a time or two, honestly.

Amadan
11-17-2012, 11:01 PM
Bruce Lee was a natural physical genius. His Jeet Kun Do philosophy isn't really anything new or groundbreaking, nor is it particularly transferable. He didn't have a magical style or way of training superior to all others; he was just that much better himself.

While martial artists love getting into debates about the finer points of close combat and which style is "better" for certain things, the fact is that, as has been mentioned repeatedly, there is no one style that is perfect for the OP's character's situation. Like I said before, if there was a fighting style that could train a beginner up to competence in a month, everyone would study it!

kaitie is right that body awareness is the major hurdle for most beginners. I help teach white belts, and people come into the dojo and literally can't figure out where to put their feet or how to move their bodies. We break basic self-defense movements down into the simplest components possible and some people still have to practice for weeks before they "get it." (Others will catch on more quickly.)

kaitie
11-18-2012, 03:38 AM
We had several new people in my class last Wednesday, and I remember thinking "Wow, that person is coordinated because they figured out opposite hand and opposite foot moving at the same time!" It sounds silly, but that's literally the level you're at when you begin. It sort of feels like you're just flailing around and hoping it looks vaguely right.

BDSEmpire
11-18-2012, 01:42 PM
What if I've only got an hour to learn to kick people's butts? I hear this Tae Kwon Leap stuff is perfect!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8VD4JXUozM

Summonere
11-18-2012, 10:35 PM
Bruce Lee was a natural physical genius. His Jeet Kun Do philosophy isn't really anything new or groundbreaking, nor is it particularly transferable.

Curious: what do you mean by the bolded part?

Amadan
11-18-2012, 11:07 PM
Curious: what do you mean by the bolded part?


I mean that his style (even if he insists it's not a style) can be taught no more and no less effectively than any other. The quote from him was a bit esoteric and philosophical, but it implies a new and simpler way of learning how to "move" (fight), as if anyone can be Bruce Lee if they follow his method.

blackrose602
11-19-2012, 02:31 AM
I'm not trained in martial arts. But I am trained in Aggression Control Techniques (aka, how to subdue a violent mental patient). So I wanted to throw in my two cents as a small female.

I'm 5'5" and 100 pounds soaking wet. When I took ACT, I was barely 18 years old. I got a week of ACT training from a 6'5" 350 pound instructor. By the end of the week, I had to disarm him and subdue him, with him fighting full-out. It makes sense. At the end of that week, I was going to work as the weekend relief on a residential ward with 15 adult patients--and I'd be there alone for 6 hours a day. I HAD to learn, and learn quick.

I'm not going to lie. It was the toughest week of my life. I had a background in dance, so I was fit, but I had never done anything like it. I got my ass handed to me a few times, I was in agony every night, and the day of the final, when I actually had to do the full take-down, I could barely drive home afterwards. But I did it.

Good thing I did, too. Not even a week later, one of the guys on the unit had secretly stopped taking his schizophrenia meds. He managed to steal a knife from the kitchen and slit both wrists. I walked in to work that morning to find him spurting blood all over the place and wielding the knife at the only other person there--the program director, who the patient was simultaneously choking with his own tie. Another girl my size arrived at the same moment, and it was up to the two of us to disarm and subdue him. And we did, and we held him while the newly freed program director called 911.

I have no idea what the difference between ACT and any martial arts may be, but I know that it's possible to learn enough in a week to subdue someone with schizophrenia and a weapon.

profen4
11-19-2012, 04:25 AM
Good thing I did, too. Not even a week later, one of the guys on the unit had secretly stopped taking his schizophrenia meds. He managed to steal a knife from the kitchen and slit both wrists. I walked in to work that morning to find him spurting blood all over the place and wielding the knife at the only other person there--the program director, who the patient was simultaneously choking with his own tie. Another girl my size arrived at the same moment, and it was up to the two of us to disarm and subdue him. And we did, and we held him while the newly freed program director called 911.

I have no idea what the difference between ACT and any martial arts may be, but I know that it's possible to learn enough in a week to subdue someone with schizophrenia and a weapon.

Egads, he must've been superman! He slit both his wrists all the way to the arteries (since he's spurting blood) and yet he managed to grip a knife and at the same time grip a guy's tie hard enough to choke him out. . . any chance this was a zombie?

I wouldn't want to mess with him, and now that I know you took him down, I don't want to mess with you either!

blackrose602
11-19-2012, 04:37 AM
Egads, he must've been superman! He slit both his wrists all the way to the arteries (since he's spurting blood) and yet he managed to grip a knife and at the same time grip a guy's tie hard enough to choke him out. . . any chance this was a zombie?

I wouldn't want to mess with him, and now that I know you took him down, I don't want to mess with you either!

Not literally spurting. But dripping enough that it was getting all over him/the floor while he was struggling. But if you want to be sarcastic, no worries. Thought my experience might help. If not, *shrug*

StephanieFox
11-19-2012, 05:08 AM
My husband has been a martial arts instructor for a number of years. This is what he said:

She has a MONTH? Oh, gosh. That depends on the training of the opponents. She should learn just one or two things, practice them over and over again, trying in different positions, and hope her opponents don't know them. Have her learn a couple of simple things (nothing fancy). Have her tey aggression training. Her best bet might be psychological, especially if she's a young female and they're men. Have her be crazy aggressive because she doesn't have time to be subtle. Have her practice sparring with the lights off, or have her fun through a room being attacked. Think basic training, military.

profen4
11-19-2012, 06:12 AM
Not literally spurting. But dripping enough that it was getting all over him/the floor while he was struggling. But if you want to be sarcastic, no worries. Thought my experience might help. If not, *shrug*

I'm sorry, it just sounded so . . . impossible. A 5'5, 100lb 18-year-old with no fighting experience being trained, in one week, to take down a 6'5' 350lb instructor who is armed and fighting "full-out."

I shouldn't have been sarcastic, but you should tell us some of the techniques you learned, because the only way I can see someone doing that is if one of the moves involved pulling a trigger.

I am genuinely curious about the techniques. Was it a particular style of fighting that the instructor focused on?

Amadan
11-19-2012, 06:25 AM
I'm sorry, it just sounded so . . . impossible. A 5'5, 100lb 18-year-old with no fighting experience being trained, in one week, to take down a 6'5' 350lb instructor who is armed and fighting "full-out."

I shouldn't have been sarcastic, but you should tell us some of the techniques you learned, because the only way I can see someone doing that is if one of the moves involved pulling a trigger.

I am genuinely curious about the techniques. Was it a particular style of fighting that the instructor focused on?


I must confess, I'm curious too. I have a black belt, and I would not fancy having to take down an armed, 6'5" 350-pound trained instructor who's fighting "full-out."

Monkey
11-19-2012, 07:06 AM
Okay, so this isn't about me or anything, so I feel safe chiming back in...

When instructors do these courses, they don't actually fight "full-out..." More like they resist nearly as hard as they can within reason. They may struggle every inch as hard as the student could reasonably be expected to handle, and perhaps more - perhaps even as hard as they can ("full-out") - but they're not going to go on the offensive and attack the trainee until they're bloody and drooling on the ground. It's very necessary for their students to feel confident and capable, so they may use terms that suggest - and in some cases outright say - that they're "fighting" as hard as they can (fight as in fist-fight) but what they mean is "fight" as in "struggle against what you've been taught to do." Perhaps after helpfully providing the right opening.

My mom was a small woman. My dad was larger and stronger. They both worked at a mental hospital for several years when I was coming into my teens, and both went through the training courses meant to teach them how to subdue patients. Each of them ended up fighting people several times, and they always managed - at the very least - to hold the patient down long enough for back up to arrive, and to do so with nothing but minor injuries. Except once. My dad was in the cafeteria, talking to one man, when another came up, pushed him over a cash register at an odd angle, and proceeded to pummel him. No warning at all, no provocation that I ever heard of. Dad ended up with cracked ribs. If it had been my mom, she likely would have been hurt worse. That's the luck of the draw, I suppose. But I will say it was strange and impressive, to me, that the people working the mental hospital were able - with so little training - to hold their own as well as they did.

ETA: Profen, why am I evil? Whyyyy?

Summonere
11-19-2012, 10:07 PM
Hey, it's a story. All the fight scene needs to do is convince us, within the context of the story, that whatever happens is believable. We need not believe whatever happens outside the context of the story.

In the movie Wanted, assassins could shoot bullets around objects and do all kinds of crazy things.

So if your girl whoops arse after a month of training, we'll believe it as long as you make it believable. Heck, maybe she learns Sinanju, or secret Ninja moves taught only to select members of the CIA. :)

kuwisdelu
11-19-2012, 10:14 PM
or secret Ninja moves taught only to select members of the CIA. :)

Why would the CIA learn such moves? That's the kind of thing you need to go into the mountains and find some old man living all alone under a waterfall to learn.

Summonere
11-20-2012, 06:01 AM
All I know I learned from Kip.

Richard White
11-20-2012, 06:41 AM
Why would the CIA learn such moves? That's the kind of thing you need to go into the mountains and find some old man living all alone under a waterfall to learn.

That's what the CIA wants you to think.

And while you're out climbing mountains looking for these guys, the little old man is living in a posh Virginia apartment and getting limo service to his training dojo on Langley.

Remember, ninjitsu is the art of invisibility. Don't be where they think you are. *grin*

kuwisdelu
11-20-2012, 07:05 AM
That's what the CIA wants you to think.

And while you're out climbing mountains looking for these guys, the little old man is living in a posh Virginia apartment and getting limo service to his training dojo on Langley.

Remember, ninjitsu is the art of invisibility. Don't be where they think you are. *grin*

Well, frankly, I don't think true ninjutsu exists anymore anyway.

Silence
11-24-2012, 03:58 PM
Judo? I don't think anyone else mentioned it... Judo isn't actually about strength, it's about technique. In Judo you don't have to punch or kick. It's all about balance- get your opponent off balance then it's easier to throw him.

It's also pretty easy to learn.

Amadan
11-24-2012, 09:58 PM
Judo? I don't think anyone else mentioned it... Judo isn't actually about strength, it's about technique. In Judo you don't have to punch or kick. It's all about balance- get your opponent off balance then it's easier to throw him.

It's also pretty easy to learn.


Judo is the sport form of jujutsu. (Basically, jujutsu with all the dangerous techniques removed.) While not useless for self-defense, it's more a sport than a martial art.

MttStrn
11-25-2012, 12:08 AM
And just to add, to do judo right is by no means easy.

Silence
11-25-2012, 03:06 AM
Maybe it's just easier to learns from a young age? I didn't find it that hard. Plus if you want you can write that your character had done it before or something like that since it won't take that long to get back into it.

kuwisdelu
11-25-2012, 01:24 PM
And just to add, to do judo right is by no means easy.

I'd say just about any form of traditional martial arts are out. Pretty invariably, the focus is on long-term commitment and improvement. Traditionally, a 1st degree black belt is basically a beginner who's got the basics down. It takes decades to really get anywhere, and she's got a month.

I'd say she should focus on physical fitness and quick-and-dirty combat-oriented training. Again, how much training do her opponents have? When neither combatant has very much experience, what works in practice and what is considered "right" in traditional martial arts can diverge dramatically.

I'd have her being taught stuff like Monkey's eye trick.

Mark Jacobs
12-03-2012, 02:21 PM
Since this topic seems to have gone on long after I originally posted a response, just thought I would chime in one more time. Not to sound arrogant but, honestly, I probably have more martial arts experience with a wider variety of styles than anyone else on this board (I make a good part of my living writing about this stuff). I donít want to get into the old debate of what works and doesnít work in a fight but did want to point out a few things:

First of all, you can make almost any technique work in a fight if you are overwhelmingly skillful, freakishly strong or athletic, or your opponent is just totally incompetent or incoherent. Whether that particular technique is necessarily the best possible alternative is another matter (and is often very situational).

Second, Iíd quote something a great former kickboxing champion, Benny Urquidez, once told me, which is ďitís not so much what you do as a fighter as how well you can do it under pressure.Ē This is probably the key to applying any sort of martial arts technique to the ďreal world.Ē People who train in a realistic, pressure filled environment - such as boxers, muay Thai kickboxers or mixed martial artists who must apply their techniques when someone is trying their hardest to actually hurt them - probably have the best chance of applying those techniques in a real life combat situation. Iím not claiming those are necessarily the best techniques to apply in the real world, merely that the people applying them will tend to be more successful with them because they have trained them in a more realistic manner than most martial artists train techniques. This isnít to say itís impossible to make a technique work for you without having done this sort of realistic combat training but it does become far more difficult.

Lastly, real world combat encompasses such a wide variety of situations and possibilities, from the mundane schoolyard brawl to life and death combat on the battlefield, that it is often silly to make sweeping claims about what will and wonít work. This is even more true in the context of an online forum where participants are somewhat limited by both a sense of brevity and an inability to physically demonstrate in person what they are attempting to explain.

Foley
12-03-2012, 02:53 PM
Lots of martial arts experts here! I talk with about 30 years experience of training different martial arts, working security, training security (including women's self-defence and hospital security - both areas that need quick results as mentioned above) but others know lots more than me! Mark Jacobs talks a lot of sense, BUT in terms of writing a story, you might want to think about:

* names of martial arts to bandy around - Wing Chun Kung Fu will teach a smallish girl some vicious strikes and very slippery defence, Judo/Ju-Jitsu will teach some vicious throws, Muay Thai knees and elbows work, Kali angles will teach a girl to be slippery too, Penjak Silat has some really different and unexpected moves

* but like has been mentioned before: depending on the skill and size of the opponent it's nearly impossible to teach a small girl how to defeat a biggish man in a short time if he is committed - so you're going to have to address that if you want to be convincing.

* basic understanding of things like centre, centre lines, kuzushi (balance points), pressure point strikes (look at Dim Mak), hard target/soft weapon - soft target/hard weapon...

* another old adage is "what's the most dangerous martial art? One that doesn't work!"

It's not going to be convincing unless you think it through, perhaps that doesn't matter?

* You might want to think about Indiana Jones's fight with the guy with the whip skills - he just pulls a gun and shoots him! Or other "alternative" solutions...

* The story of Miyamoto Musashi (legendary Japanese sword master) springs to mind, Mark Jacobs might remember this: a tea ceremony guru has to fight a samurai bully for his honour THE NEXT DAY! so he asks Musashi what he can do (he's never even touched a sword before) - Musashi teaches him ONE sword strike and makes him do it and do it and convinces him that no matter what the other guy does, the tea guru must do that with all the intensity and commitment he can muster - come the day the tea guru does and strikes the war-hardened samurai bully dead with one strike!

Hope this helps :)

T. Trian
12-03-2012, 04:50 PM
I think the mental side of RBSD is as important or even more important than the physical training. It won't matter squat if you can do 1000 techniques textbook perfect if you freeze when it counts.

It's surprising just how many people have qualms with really hurting another person (I mean in general, not here on AW). Those are mental hurdles one needs to clear in order for any of the physical stuff to be of any use.

As for the topic itself, I didn't really understand if it's a fight with rules or without? Because if there are no rules, why would the girl go there in the first place? Or if she simply has to go, why wouldn't see take a gun/knife with her as well as a bunch of similarly armed friends? Or LEOs?

Generally I'm of the opinion that the quickest way to become an effective fighter is to train two styles: one of them a combat sport (mixed martial arts, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, whatever) and an RBSD system (like krav maga, defendo, senshido etc). The former ensures an arena where you can pressure test all your techniques save for the few nasty tricks (eye-gouging, fish-hooking, use of weapons) while the RBSD training allows you to learn about the mental/psychological side of combat (learn to manipulate your opponent's adrenaline gland, how to deal with your own adrenaline dump and still remain proactive, how to fight multiple opponents at once etc. etc) and gives the techniques you've learned from combat sports a context (self-defense).

It's also good to have some almost "all out" sparring with a few people you trust. I've done some outside of club training with a few closer friends. We put on mouthguards, groin cups, MMA gloves, and then went at it. The first time we did that, I learned that in order to gauge anyone's eye, you have to somehow secure their head first (e.g. while you're on the ground, press their head against the ground and shove your thumbs in), that smashing an elbow on someone's jaw isn't nearly as easy as I had expected, that grabbing/twisting/pulling someone's groin is more effective and easier to succeed with than a kick in the groin (I still have a few dents in my shins when the other guys blocked my kicks with their shins. It hurt so bad we saw stars :D). I also noticed a broken thumb doesn't take you out of the fight but that it hurts like hell while a cracked sternum can very well end a fight. And even the dirty tricks won't deter a guy clearly superior to you in skill (one of the guys had competed several times in MMA and I had to tap out when he had my arm in an americana and I tried going for his eyes). Oh, and long combinations don't work. Mixing up levels, however, seems very useful (e.g. throw a liver hook to focus your opponent's attention down and use your other hand to follow it up with a hook on the guy's jawline).

Oh, and biting and fish-hooking are just like gouging eyes: usually you need to secure your targed at least to a degree before you can successfully pull off one of these tricks.

Anyway, I don't think it matters that much which style you train. Finding a good instructor is much more important imho. I'd rather train kyokushin karate under a great instructor than MMA or krav maga under a bad one even if I personally prefer combat sports and RBSD over traditional martial arts.

And then there's the mental effort you have to put in because even a great instructor can't mold you into an effective fighter if you don't go the extra mile and "brainwash" yourself into accepting the fact that in order to protect yourself/your loved ones, you need to be able to harness your fear, be decisive, brutal, and be the one to throw the first punch. That means no self-defense curriculum is complete if it doesn't teach the students about local self-defense laws (what is justified, what is not, what will incarcerate you etc) or how to read the myriad of cues an aggressive person displays (usually subconsciously) at various stages of the situation (like first they may call you names and shove you repeatedly, implying they're still gathering courage to attack or if their speech turns monosyllabic "right? So? Yeah?" and the antagonist glances over his shoulder to see if there are cops/guards/security cams/eye witnesses nearby, fists start opening and closing etc. etc, all of which signal to the savvy that an attack is iminent and that the point of verbal de-escalation is likely gone by then).


A guy I know about once said that the least preferable opponent he would want to encounter in a self-defense scenario is an RBSD-guy who trains with the same frequency/intensity/dedication like a combat sports athlete.

Oh, and if you do decide to carry a weapon, make sure you know how and have the guts to use it. It can look gruesome but if you need to cut/stab someone, don't get freaked out about just how much even a fairly shallow cut can bleed (once I cut a guy's calf, the cut was around 3-4 inches long and about a quarter inch deep if even that and pretty soon there was a puddle of blood the size of a 30" TV on the floor). Then again, a cut like that won't stop a determined attacker before it's too late (for the defender, I mean). I once had a bit of an accident and (according to the paramedics) lost about 2 liters of blood in about 15-20 minutes but I could've fought for at least a good few minutes even after sustaining the injury.

Today seems to be a "Long Post"-day for me. Sorry about that.