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scooterblenny
10-06-2012, 12:31 PM
Hi, I can't seem to find an answer to these questions anywhere.. so here's the scenario, my MC is a young girl whos left normal life to lead a life of crime. She doesn't want to kill anyone, but she'll need a way to knock someone out for a few hours and hopefully cause some amnesia so she can rob them and get away.

I need something that she can get easily OTC, or possibly at a pet store/tack store for animals that is hopefully injectable. Other than having her get some roofies, what about stealing some xanax from a soccer mom, would that knock someone out if you mixed in it alcohol or would it kill the person? This is supposed to be a dark comedy of sorts.

Thanks!

Bufty
10-06-2012, 04:18 PM
Knock someone out for a few hours? Plus amnesia? Are you being realistic here?

Where does the victim live? A one-room flat? A fifty-room mansion?

Does the victim have to be on the premises while the robbery takes place?

Is the victim normally mobile and alert?

Just posing questions to make you consider all avenues - if you haven't already done so.

Injectable? Is the MC a nurse?

And welcome. :welcome:

shaldna
10-06-2012, 04:20 PM
The problem with knocking someone out is this:

1. Blunt force trauma - no matter how easy the movies make it look, hitting someone to knock them out is a dangerous act - at best they will be really pissed off, at worse they will die. Brain swelling, bleeding, fractures are all common with this sort of injury.

2. Drugs - there's no way of knowing how someone will react to any given drug. They could be fine, they could be immune, they could be intolerant, they could be allergic. Again, it's hard to know. Plus, unless you have a decent knowledge of the drug and how it will effect people based on size, weight, metabolism etc, then there's a strong chance that you will get it wrong. (for example, I worked with horses for a long time, we have a sedative called Settlin whichis over the counter, pretty mild and used most often when transporting horses, or when a nervous horse needs veterinary care etc. I'd used it for years, knew the dosages, never any problems. One day I needed to give it to a stallion I was looking after. I gave him the right dose for his weight. He lay down and didn't get up for three days, I thought I had killed him. Turns out that the drug has a much more pronounced effect on stallions - something to do with testosterone - and I hadn't known this.)

shaldna
10-06-2012, 04:22 PM
Also, on the injectable side - this will be hard to pull off. There are very few drugs that are intra-muscular which will do what you want. In addition, most of those sort of medications are strictly controlled - you can't buy medication for animals or humans over the counter anymore. Hell, you even have to get a vet to prescribe you Bute here now.

glutton
10-06-2012, 08:40 PM
It won't cause enough memory loss for what you probably want, but if you want someone to be out for a few hours without much risk of death, you want to get them extremely drunk.

If the person is up for the challenge have your MC challenge them to a drinking contest and drink them under the table.

WeaselFire
10-06-2012, 10:52 PM
I she can sneak up on somebody and inject them, she can certainly avoid detection during a robbery. :)

Jeff

John342
10-07-2012, 05:43 AM
The stuff that Michael Jackson used caused deep sleep and time black out. I think that requires injection.There are ways of concealing an injection mechanism in a pair of gloves or other accessory.

Hope we don't shake hands...

Hope this helps,

John

spottedgeckgo
10-07-2012, 06:02 AM
You need to also take into account how "fast acting" the drug is. Even if it's really quick, the ant is going to have time to react before passing out. Best bet is probably chloroform (prolly not spelled right). I'm not an expert on the stuff myself, but might be something to look into. Maybe if there were more about the specific scenario I could help more. Is she swiping a wallet or robbing a house? What is her cause to need to knock them out vs waiting for them to fall asleep or acquiring the skill to pickpocket? Why would a diversion not work? Her need for knocking them out might provoke some more ideas.

espresso5
10-07-2012, 07:50 AM
You could have her steal a tranq gun from a vet clinic or the zoo and she could shoot people with M-99 or her agent of choice.

scooterblenny
10-08-2012, 08:58 PM
somewhat off topic but not.. thanks shaldna for the knowledge on the horse sedative (I'm also a horse person, albeit a newbie, it's always good to know things like that, sedatives work different on Arabs too)

Anyways, thanks for the advice everyone, that's pretty much what I thought of anyways, I think I'm being too techincal anyways. and the first poster.. no it's not entirely realistic... it is fiction ;)

Bufty
10-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Even though it's fiction it still has to be credible within the story framework, and you do not appear to be writing a fantasy tale.


somewhat off topic but not.. thanks shaldna for the knowledge on the horse sedative (I'm also a horse person, albeit a newbie, it's always good to know things like that, sedatives work different on Arabs too)

Anyways, thanks for the advice everyone, that's pretty much what I thought of anyways, I think I'm being too techincal anyways. and the first poster.. no it's not entirely realistic... it is fiction ;)

James D. Macdonald
10-12-2012, 06:55 AM
You're looking for one of the benzodiazepines.

L.C. Blackwell
10-12-2012, 07:58 AM
You're looking for one of the benzodiazepines.

Of which Rohypnol is one, and readily slipped into a drink if your character can get ahold of the drug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohypnol

According to the wiki article, it can be prescribed for severe insomnia, and also has a history of being used in robberies--see the sub-heading "Drug Facilitated Robbery."

The amnesiac effects also resemble your description of what you want to happen in your story.

tamara
10-12-2012, 06:46 PM
I believe this is what you are looking for. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE2TZAdoaS8

veinglory
10-12-2012, 06:53 PM
In my opinion making some one unconscious always carries the risk of death. The difference between unconscious and dead is a matter of degree, even with fully trained people, willing patients and a controlled environment. I have thrown more than one book against the wall because the "hero" knocks out a non-villain and thought nothing of the risk. Worse among them being a Laurie King book where the hero knocks out the heroine just to keep her safely out of the way for a while.

glutton
10-12-2012, 08:57 PM
In my opinion making some one unconscious always carries the risk of death.

But is making someone so drunk they pass out really that likely to kill them? It must be considerably less than a 1% chance...

Of course the type of scenario I'm imagining is probably pretty irrelevant to what the TS has in mind... since I'm thinking of the character sitting with the intended victim, trading drink for drink with them and going 'one more, one more' until the victim has hadda enough and is passed out dead drunk.

veinglory
10-12-2012, 09:16 PM
Actually if you tied them to a chair and used a funnel to get them unconscious drunk based on external observation, you would have a pretty good chance or killing them by overdose or aspiration. Forced application is far more dangerous than voluntary intake.

Even so, when I worked at a dorm I called an ambulance for genuinely unconscious drunks. They die often enough that it is considered an unwise liability to just put them to bed. I found that most can recover some voluntary function is sufficiently alarmed, I only called the ambulance twice.

glutton
10-12-2012, 09:28 PM
Actually if you tied them to a chair and used a funnel to get them unconscious drunk based on external observation, you would have a pretty good chance or killing them by overdose or aspiration. Forced application is far more dangerous than voluntary intake.

Even so, when I worked at a dorm I called an ambulance for genuinely unconscious drunks. They die often enough that it is considered an unwise liability to just put them to bed. I found that most can recover some voluntary function is sufficiently alarmed, I only called the ambulance twice.

I meant just drinking with them until they slump down oblivious to anything around them as opposed to force feeding them or making sure they're completely unconscious. I mean if they're semi-unconscious enough to be down and unwilling to move I doubt they'll notice you robbing them or be able to stop you.

veinglory
10-12-2012, 09:35 PM
My statement was in regard to this thread. And this thread is about forcibly rendering someone so unconscious that they won't notice or even remember that you robbed them.

glutton
10-12-2012, 10:45 PM
My statement was in regard to this thread. And this thread is about forcibly rendering someone so unconscious that they won't notice or even remember that you robbed them.

It depends on how they are being robbed. If you're taking something from their pocket they might notice if they're just regular 'semi-unconscious drunk', but if you're taking their purse that's on the table next to them or in their lap, they probably won't notice even if they are only 'semi-unconscious drunk'. And they wouldn't remember you robbing them if they don't notice it in the first place, although they would suspect you afterwards since they'll remember drinking with you before they lost whatever you took.

veinglory
10-12-2012, 10:47 PM
OP is asking for methods imposed involuntarily by a young child.

Trebor1415
10-12-2012, 11:11 PM
Insert "Does this rag smell like Chloroform" joke here.

glutton
10-12-2012, 11:17 PM
OP is asking for methods imposed involuntarily by a young child.

It is likely a little off topic but he/she didn't actually specify the age of the 'young girl', some people would call an 18 or even a 25 yo a young girl. Nor did they specify what the setup for the 'knockout' had to be.

Lyra Jean
10-12-2012, 11:36 PM
I didn't read the entire thread. But if you are going for comedy bend, I know you said it was a little dark, but watch episodes of The A-Team. The original series from the '80s not the movie.

In practically every episode they had to travel by plane and B.A. (Mr. T) is afraid of flying. So they always had to come up with creative to knock him out long enough to at least get him on the plane. He usually woke up right before they landed.

MPaul301
10-13-2012, 12:26 AM
The stuff that Michael Jackson used caused deep sleep and time black out. I think that requires injection.There are ways of concealing an injection mechanism in a pair of gloves or other accessory.

Hope we don't shake hands...

Hope this helps,

John

Propofol. "Milk of Amnesia," it's sometimes called. It's controlled, I think, and as we learned with the MJ incident, it requires someone who knows what they're doing. It's supposedly rapid onset, but it wears off pretty rapidly too. Oh, also to use it safely, the patient has to be continuously monitored and frequently requires mechanical ventilation, ie you're pumping air into their lungs because they might not be able to.

Chloroform used to be the drug of choice, but it kills people by the same mechanism as huffing paint.

Diethyl Ether is a much safer choice, apparently, but it's highly flammable and causes nausea and vomiting in the patient.

spottedgeckgo
03-10-2017, 06:42 PM
Don't normally do this, I post and move one, but I've been reading back through these responses, and re-read the OP.

I think at the end of the day. Do something simple, make it believable, and definitely test it with beta readers to see if they eat it up or raise and eyebrow, my ideal beta readers would be EMTs and Law Enforcement people. The good news is both of those jobs typically have some down-time built in for reading (long shifts, long hours, changing hours, if you are up by yourself at 3am and trying to be asleep by 5 or 6, you have some time) and they would be the first to question that sort of thing, because it's likely they've seen the effects.

Seductress might be believable if it fits in the story, drink water while the guy's drinking. Easy enough if she claims to be a "picky" drinker and has her own bottle of some fruity beverage, and the guy is the type not to try it because he has his own likes. She could just wait it out. He doesn't need to get drunk to the point of black out and crazy, just fall asleep. Don't think anyone would argue with that, and plus drunkenness can be funny in itself from a sober mindset.

GeorgeK
03-11-2017, 02:15 AM
The stuff that Michael Jackson used caused deep sleep and time black out. I think that requires injection.There are ways of concealing an injection mechanism in a pair of gloves or other accessory.

Hope we don't shake hands...

Hope this helps,

JohnUnfortunately Michael Jackson trusted a quack. He wasn't given sleep aids. He was anesthetized. Euthenized. Killed. No competent physician would have prescribed propofol for sleep.

Maryn
03-11-2017, 02:31 AM
Whoa, Nellie! This thread is from 2012, and the person who posted it appears to be long gone. When we reply to a thread that isn't on the first page of one of the boards, it's a good idea to make sure we're not bringing it back from the dead. (We call it "necro-ing.")

Which is not to say that it's uninteresting to head a doctor announce Jackson's personal physician was a quack.

Anyway, no harm done.

Maryn, who likes ducks but not quacks