Which Market If I Can't Get An Agent?

Those aren't really your only options. For instance, the Harper imprint is opening a sff line and will be temporarily accepting unagented submissions: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254364

There are other print and online publishers who accept unagented submissions--and aren't "small presses." Perhaps one of AW's publishing experts can talk more about how different presses price their books.

Self-publishing is certainly an option, but even then, there's more flexibility than you seem to suggest.

Best of luck querying!

Your choices are far broader than your post suggests, as has already been pointed out to you.

I suggest you read up a bit on publishing, and think about those other choices before you decide on anything.

Yeah, research is key. There are a lot of mid-list publishers that accept unagented submissions (as said.) You just have to do your homework on the places that are geared toward your writing. Publisher's Marketplace, the P&E and even Agentquery have lists of reputable houses. You can even check here in the Bewares and Background Check forums.

Good luck with it!

rmgil04 said:

In general which has the better chance for sales though? I mean, there is a stigma for self published e-books, but being able to sell them for $.99 has translated to sales for many.
For myself, I would never buy from a small publisher (at least most) because they charge so much more.
If you know smaller/midsized publishers that don't charge way higher prices for their books, I'll investigate them too. I'm not in a big rush. I have a lot of edit work to do.

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If I recall correctly (waiting, hopefully, for someone else to come correct me if I'm wrong) a lot of smaller imprints offer smaller advances, like a couple thousand, but it is still an advance. So, assuming $2K, in hand, versus self-pubbing and selling at 99 cents a download, are you able to anticipate selling over 1,000 copies of your self-pub book? Because a good many do not.

BTW, since many books do not out-earn the advance, the sales price becomes somewhat immaterial in terms of return to you. More is better, but I'd focus on the advance rates.

rmgil04 said:

If you know smaller/midsized publishers that don't charge way higher prices for their books, I'll investigate them too. I'm not in a big rush. I have a lot of edit work to do.

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There's a lot of info on these forums that'll help you find these, but you'll have to do some of that research yourself.

There are plenty of good, professional midlist publishers out there.

EDIT: Here are some links to get you started.

Also, as an aside, note a small press expecting to sell 10% of the copies a larger imprint plans on but still having to put the exact same cash into legal fees, printing, etc. is not exactly screwing you or the consumer by charging $15. They are a smaller-scale operation. You wouldn't expect a custom dining room table built in some guy's garage to cost the same as a similar piece mass-produced and sold at a box store, would you?

Yup.Big houses have a lot more financial freedom to print and sell books for cheap while still making a profit, but smaller-scale publishers have more to lose and their prices have to reflect that. But smaller publishers are well know for being enthusiastic and supportive over their writers, and supporting a small business gives plenty of buyers (myself included) a warm fuzzy feeling.

I'll also note that $15 isn't exactly a big spend for hours of entertainment (and months or years of hard work). I'll happily spend that amount for a new release I'm excited about, even if it's paperback.

rmgil04 said:

But why spend the $15 if you can probably get the same joy for almost half that? What do you get for the premium price? you get a different read. I wanted Every Shallow Cut by Tom Piccirilli, and it wasn't out in a Dorchester edition.....so I bought the other. Not every author has a Big 6 imprint, and not all who do not are bad authors not worth reading.....I'd take a paragraph from Piccirilli over every book Dan Brown has ever written, unless I was in the woods and out of toilet paper. Small publications have a stigma of being inferior and don't have the logistical support. the stigma is only in the eyes of the ignorant, I guess...they do less advertising, but I haven't heard anyone say they were forced to only run with "sloppy seconds".....at least nobody with an opinion I would consider educated.

How many people here have gotten decent sales numbers (books sold, not just $ made) from small or mid-sized publishers? not sure....as I said, you should be considering advance vs how many books you expect to sell by self-pubbing, and if you think you will meet or exceed those numbers. if your concern is actual numbers, you may be far WORSE self-pubbing--once your book is one of millions instead of thousands, and you are the sole marketer, how do you anticipate raising its profile? because the book doesn't really do the legwork for you. You wanna sell a bunch, someone has to push it--will that be you? How, compared to the millions of folks already self-pubbing? if you don't have a good answer, your numbers will reflect that.


One strategy I've considered with the $.99 ebook is to sell the first in the series for $.99, but when the sequel comes out, give options. Sequel alone for $.99 or the two stories together for $1.50.

I'm just questioning how well small presses really generate good sales. I haven't seen any research or testimonies that say they do. Most people I've heard from who went to small publishers are just glad to be published. then you should probably "hear" more. There are excellent small publishers who deal with niches and authors considered too high-risk, and there are small publishers who life on seconds....not everything is the latter, and a $15 book does not equate to inferior. at all. You're coming into this with some serious, serious misconceptions. Worse, you're wearing them on your sleeve and presenting your beliefs in a manner that is not only ill-informed, but somewhat combative in defense of your ignorance--everyone is free to carry themselves in whatever manner they choose, and I don't think you're anywhere near a ban, but you ARE near insulting a lot of folks who are quite happy with their small houses, and are not that happy just because they are too dumb or desperate to know the difference.... I've even seen people bragging about being published through Publish America. not at all the same

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I'm gonna say it one more time: Figure the advance in a small house. Then figure what you hope or expect to sell in terms of copies if you self-pub, multiplied by the cost per volume. Then figure out which dollar amount is highest.


and if you're really worried about small-press "prestige" I don't know that you're gonna exceed that by self-pubbing, where many, fair or not, associate the product with bad fanfic and stuff "unable to get into print". Again, that isn't fair, but I"ve seen more bias that way than towards small presses, by far.

rmgil04 said:

But why spend the $15 if you can probably get the same joy for almost half that? What do you get for the premium price? Small publications have a stigma of being inferior

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What? Where did you get that?

Very few people actually care about the publisher when they buy a book, as long as it's a real publisher.

rmgil04 said:

But why spend the $15 if you can probably get the same joy for almost half that? What do you get for the premium price? Small publications have a stigma of being inferior and don't have the logistical support.

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My friend, you have a lot of research to do. You are throwing out terms that it seems you do not know the definition of. A small press, for example, might gross as much as 49 million dollars a year in sales. That's still considered "small." There are quite a few who, while small, get their books into all the stores, and sell a great many books.

When's the last time you talked to a reader and asked them to tell you who published the last three books they've read? I suspect that, while a serious reader could name the big-six presses, they couldn't name their imprints.

I concur with the other advice you've received: do your homework. There is no stigma signing with a small press. There's stigma signing with a vanity press, so don't bother with those. Still, you should always aim high.

FWIW, I can think of dozens of advance paying publishers who do si/fi and who don't require agents.

The planet Neptune.

caw

Quicklime said everything I was wanting to say, and said it much better than I will.

There are plenty of brilliant midlist trade publishers out there, and (if you're not focussed on the incoming funds/royalty rate) then it's a much better deal than self-publishing for many people. You get a support team that has your back throughout every stage of the process, professional editing, professional cover design, advertising, and a whole lot of other benefits.

And, importantly for me, you don't pay for this privilege. Money should flow towards the writer, not away from them... no matter how tempting the potential royalties look.

Here's an example for you using one of my personal favourite smaller publishers: Angry Robot and it's YA imprint Strange Chemistry are both reasonably new, midlist/small publishers that occasionally open their doors to unsolicited submissions. Their story quality is brilliant, they're willing to take risks to benefit the reader (including removing pesky DRM from their books), and their cover art is award winning and often superior to cover work by the 'big six'.

Rmgil04, your knowledge of publishing is fundamentally flawed. You need to do a some research before you start deciding on publishing paths.

rmgil04 said:

I'm editing a sci-fi novel and hoping to query agents, but if I don't get one...

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Why would you not get one?

Seriously, if the book won't attract an agent, it likely isn't ready to be published. If you're worried enough about getting an agent to start anticipating other publishing options, put the time into polishing the book first. If an agent replies that "This is a great book, I just don't have a market for it," then think about other avenues and smaller markets.

Jeff

You can't compare Book A and Book B in the way that you just did because books aren't all the same. Buying a book isn't like buying a pound of flour: every single book is a different product, packaged in whatever container you've chosen: hardback, paperback, audio book, or e-book.

I've recently read a wonderful debut novel: Amity & Sorrow, by a writer called Peggy Riley. I'd happily pay £20 for her next novel; I'd not pay nearly as much for a novel by Barbara Cartland, for example, because I don't like her books.

Who publishes them, and how they're published, isn't the issue. The books are the issue. You can't substitute one for another in the way you suggest: it just doesn't make sense.

rmgil04 said:

Business 101, higher prices WILL translate into lower sales volume. And this is business.

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Just echoing Old Hack, but - this isn't always true.

If Ima New-Writer prices her self-published ebook at $12.00, she's not likely to sell many.

If JK Rowling prices a self-published ebook at $12.00 (or $22), 50 Shades of Grey gets knocked out of the best-seller slot on Amazon.

rmgil04 said:

I don't care about advance. That doesn't mean the book will sell for a premium. no, it does not. Are you worried about money, or about sales numbers? because you potentially have two fundamental misunderstandings and I'm not sure which one you are operating on. So is your concern how many people get to see your book? the vague and nebulous notion of "prestige"? Or actual money in your pocket? Because if money plays any role, advance is likely all that WILL matter; hack can offer stats but I believe well over 3/4 of books don't earn out their advance. This is relevant. If your concern is not money, then you still need to figure out how you anticipate getting more copies into readers hands, or kindles, on your own than with a marketing campaign.

Business 101, higher prices WILL translate into lower sales volume. And this is business. Business 101A, smaller volumes WILL lead to higher prices. You have it flipped, those small presses aren't trying to undersell by pricing themselves out of market, they are taking greater risks and anticipating smaller volumes.

In the long run, a new author is better off taking a little less (think of it as investing in your product) to try to keep the sales price competetive. It could help lead to more sales of that book (and even out the revenues). If the book is good, then readers will then be more willing to look for that author's name (leading to more revenues).

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I think your business understanding, with regard to publishing, is flawed.

Try to think of it in ANY other market though....Wal-Mart sells for less than a corner store.....because with the volume, they can afford to. the corner guy doesn't charge more rubbing his hands together greedily thinking of all the folks he can turn away.

I bought an AR last year, from a small custom shop. Guess what? It cost about 40% more than from a mass producer like bushmaster. Why? Because of scale. And so it goes.....

rmgil04 said:

You're right, but nobody has given me a convincing answer to why would the average person pay $15 for paperback A vs. $8 for paperback B without any evidence that the buyer is getting more for that extra $7. Personally I wouldn't because I can find plenty of books for $8.

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I will cheerfully pay $15 for a book from an author I really like. Whereas I would not read a book by an author who doesn't interest me if it were free.

Books aren't widgets, people don't go shopping for "The cheapest brand of epic fantasy."

Amadan said:

Books aren't widgets, people don't go shopping for "The cheapest brand of epic fantasy."

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And sometimes the publisher IS the brand, hence people may pay more for a book they have a good chance of liking (even if it's by an author they've never heard of) because they know this pub puts out quality stuff, and the sort of stuff they like. For a newbie author, that can be gold. For instance, I'll pay more for a Newcon book, because I know they produce stuff that I like, it will be good, well-edited etc, and the sort of stuff (genre/concept wise) I'm not as likely to find anywhere else.