High-functioning Autism or Asperger's

Emermouse · Aug 10, 2012

I've been kicking around an idea in my head about a character with high-functioning autism. It's mostly because I've been a little curious about the condition since a psychologist who examined my brother said he might have Asperger's Syndrome. Ever since, I search Wikipedia (I know not to use it as a sole source of information on anything but I figure it'd give me somewhere to start) trying to learn more about Autism and Asperger's, but so much of it confuses me.

The question I keep coming back to, is at what point do you say a character is Autistic and at what point do you just say he's a social klutz? Because so many behaviors described as being autistic, sound like the traits that would have gotten a kid branded as "weird" or as a nerd or a geek. In fact, a lot of behavior associated with geeks, single-minded obsession with a hobby, bad social skills, etc., is called Autism.

Again, I've decided that my character will be relatively high-functioning. He goes to public schools (though he has an aide to help him with tasks and he sometimes wears headphones when the noise of his classmates gets to be too much) and he sees a therapist and a case manager to help him out. I also have decided that while he's bad at associating with people besides his mom and older sister (his parents are divorced; it was a very ugly divorce, if you're wondering) that he does have talents when it comes to machines and electronics. He loves taking stuff apart and putting them back together and trying to figure out new devices in order to make everyday tasks easier; generally he has an easier time with devices than people; if a device is broken, he can take it apart and figure out what needs to be fixed. It doesn't work that way with people. I hope I've managed to avoid the Autism=Savant trap, but let me know if I haven't.

Anyway, some clearer, more concise information on Autism and its effects and how it differs from being shy or a social klutz, would be nice. Because right now, I'm seriously confused.

WildScribe · Aug 10, 2012

They can look similar, but the differences are in wiring, and are probably more obvious in childhood before the children learn to cope.

Example.

I'm (probably) a mild Aspie if you want any more specific answers about how the social awkwardness works. I've mostly learned to work around it, but new situations still mess me up sometimes.

kuwisdelu · Aug 10, 2012

Emermouse said:
The question I keep coming back to, is at what point do you say a character is Autistic and at what point do you just say he's a social klutz? Because so many behaviors described as being autistic, sound like the traits that would have gotten a kid branded as "weird" or as a nerd or a geek. In fact, a lot of behavior associated with geeks, single-minded obsession with a hobby, bad social skills, etc., is called Autism.

Remember those are just signs and symptoms, and autism spans a wide range. It's more of a different way of thinking and viewing the world than any particular set of symptoms.

Geekiness and social awkwardness don't autism make, though autistics and Aspies can very well often be geeky and socially awkward.

For example, neurotypical people may be bad at playing an instrument because they have no interest, they never practice, or they're tone deaf. Having an ASD is being born with ears tuned to a different set of frequencies.

Al Stevens · Aug 10, 2012

Emermouse, I think you're on the right track. The character you describe is a lot like my niece's son. He is diagnosed with autism, and he is a talented web designer and programmer. His interpersonal skills are limited, however. His mother is a single mom.

My son, age 51, has been diagnosed with autism, but that was before they understood it as well as they do now. They don't make that diagnosis now. (He is brain-damaged and classified as severely retarded.) There was a time when autism was a catch-all for developmentally-impaired children when they couldn't find a more precise label. And they'd use it to justify experimenting with psychotropic drugs. Long story.

blacbird · Aug 10, 2012

The cloud of behaviors that have fallen into the basket called "autism" is broad and complex. For your writing, concentrate on your character's behaviors, not on the label attached to them.

caw

cornflake · Aug 10, 2012

The question you're asking isn't really one with an answer besides that you can probably believably do what you will. This is something that's been hotly debated among professionals in the field as the diagnoses of autism spectrum disorders have grown and grown and grown.

There was a mainstream article a ...year or so ago maybe? In possibly the NYT or NY Mag by, again iirc, a psychologist trying to swing back to 'quirky' and away from Asperger's. The debate is a thing. There have been other articles and such, and the controversy is growing, as the new DSM is looming, with potential changes.

eggs · Aug 11, 2012

My nephew is an Aspie. He's about 10 years old. I wouldn't say he is a social klutz, he is in fact highly mannered and tends towards being quite formally perfect in his social interaction. This means that he relates well to older adults who value formality and manners, but poorly to younger people with "modern manners". I sometimes think that the huge increase in Asperges diagnoses has more to do with the decreasing formality of social interactions than an actual increase in Asperges. He's very intelligent and interesting to talk to, but he might whack my kids about the head then run away if they do something noisy and unexpected or irritating. Frankly, I'd like to whack my kids about the head myself when they do noisy and unexpected things or irritate me, but I've been socialized out of that impulse

In general, I see the difference between my nephew and my own kids as being more of an "operating system" difference. He's a Windows 7 and my own kids are Macs. Once you work out how to interact with the different OS it's all pretty straight forward. If I were writing an Aspie character, I wouldn't focus on how he has difficulty in socializing with others, but rather on how others with "modern manners" have difficulty in socializing with him.

sciencewarrior · Aug 11, 2012

Emermouse said:
The question I keep coming back to, is at what point do you say a character is Autistic and at what point do you just say he's a social klutz? Because so many behaviors described as being autistic, sound like the traits that would have gotten a kid branded as "weird" or as a nerd or a geek. In fact, a lot of behavior associated with geeks, single-minded obsession with a hobby, bad social skills, etc., is called Autism.

At what point one stops being plump and becomes morbidly obese? It's a matter of degree. These traits appear in a continuum, and the moment they begin to have a serious impact on one's quality of life is when they stop being quirks and become a disease.

I'm a total geek. I hate crowds and noise. I still have problems with more nuanced social interactions. These traits have given me trouble in the past, but not enough to qualify as Asperger's. As eggs pointed out, there are subjective and cultural factors to consider. One person can be considered inside the cultural norm in one setting, and almost cripplingly outside it in another.

jaksen · Aug 11, 2012

I recently sold a story with a high-functioning, autistic police officer in it. No one in the story really mentions he's autistic except the police chief who assigns said officer to work with my MC. Being autistic, this cop is a stickler for detail, which works to the story's advantage.

I've had autistic children in class for years and to me they were just kids with a few personality traits that were a bit different from the 'ordinary' child. I also have an autistic son, but he's on the extreme low end, also being Down Syndrome and nonverbal.

Anyhow, I wrote my character as a sort of regular fellow who now and then needs to do things a second, third or fourth time. My MC is patient with him and it's this particular trait (of the autistic cop) that helps solve the 'mystery' in the story.

WriteKnight · Aug 11, 2012

The character of SHELDON in 'The Big Bang Theory' - is widely regarded as being a high functioning autistic. The creators 'won't say' whether he is or not.

There's a SyFy series called 'alphas' - in which a high functioning autistic character is part of the 'alpha team'. I think he does a really good job of integrating those traits with the difficulties of 'mainstreaming' him with the rest of the team.

It's interesting to note the appearance of characters in mainstream television and film that may or may not be diagnosed. I think it's a positive sign.

Xelebes · Aug 11, 2012

When I was diagnosed with Asperger's, there was a physical (motor) component that they tested for which indicated that there were wiring issues. To me, Asperger's is not so much only thinking pattern issue (which would throw it into beharioural disorder or something) but also something that effects the body as a whole.

Something tells me that the physical component is not (often) tested for in the United States to arrive upon the diagnosis.

But I'm in agreement with blacbird.

The Otter · Aug 11, 2012

I'd recommend reading some of Temple Grandin's work (which I keep meaning to do myself). The movie about her is also quite good. There's also a memoir by a man with AS called Look Me in the Eye.

In my current WIP, one of the main characters has Asperger's. The other is a shy, socially awkward (but neurotypical) nerd. The differences between them, as far as their thinking patterns and the way they communicate, are pretty significant.

senka · Aug 13, 2012

eggs said:
My nephew is an Aspie. He's about 10 years old. I wouldn't say he is a social klutz, he is in fact highly mannered and tends towards being quite formally perfect in his social interaction. This means that he relates well to older adults who value formality and manners, but poorly to younger people with "modern manners". I sometimes think that the huge increase in Asperges diagnoses has more to do with the decreasing formality of social interactions than an actual increase in Asperges.

(...)

If I were writing an Aspie character, I wouldn't focus on how he has difficulty in socializing with others, but rather on how others with "modern manners" have difficulty in socializing with him.

To me it seems that the manners-thing is your nephews way to compensate his lack of "intuitive understanding" of social situations. These formal rules exactly tell him what to do and what not to do in a certain situation, a set of rules that one can simply follow and that help avoid this always present uncertianity autistic people feel during social interaction.
I've seen a few autistic people handle it that way, and heard about a few more that do it, but, nevertheless, it's nothing that could be applied to all of them. I know a woman with Asperger's who rather tries to find logic and usefulness within everything, and thus questions many things others consider polite and "good manners". A person not knowing her background would probably consider her quite bad-mannered and rude.

My point here is - there is no "autistic people are like this and that". They have completely different personalities and you can have your believeable autistic character being a shy introvert nerd, a or a punk with green mohawk, whatever you like. It's more the difficulties with certain things they have in common, not the way they try to cope with it.

Xelebes said:
When I was diagnosed with Asperger's, there was a physical (motor) component that they tested for which indicated that there were wiring issues. To me, Asperger's is not so much only thinking pattern issue (which would throw it into beharioural disorder or something) but also something that effects the body as a whole.

I can vouch for that. The physical aspects, though often overlooked, are definitely important.

stormie · Aug 13, 2012

Of course, no two on the autistic spectrum are alike. As a pediatric neurologist told me when my older son was three and the younger son was one, I don't just have opposites, I have extreme opposites. Yet they are both classified as on the autistic spectrum. They have other issues, too, which can come into play with your characters.

Debbie V · Aug 13, 2012

Autism is a category on the spectrum of Autism Spectrum Disorders. It includes speech difficulties and a body posture specific to those with the diagnosis along with other developmental delays.
The spectrum contain a few other diagnoses, including aspergers. It's characterized by higher intelligence (as tested by IQ tests) and generally better overall functioning.
An autistic child will never attend college, an Aspergers child most certainly will.
My daughter has PDD-Nos, Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Non Specified. She never had a speech delay, but she has other characteristics of an autistic child. Her IQ is average or slightly below. The diagnosis indicates that she meets many requirements for the spectrum, but not for another diagnosis within it. You can pick and choose from the symptomology and create a charaxter with this diagnosis.

To learn more, visit Autism Speaks and other organizations or consult those who study and work with the autistic in your local area. Some hospitals now have Autism centers. Also consider that DSM-V is changing and the requirements for an Autism diagnosis will change with it.

xC0000005 · Aug 13, 2012

Emermouse said:
I've been kicking around an idea in my head about a character with high-functioning autism. It's mostly because I've been a little curious about the condition since a psychologist who examined my brother said he might have Asperger's Syndrome. Ever since, I search Wikipedia (I know not to use it as a sole source of information on anything but I figure it'd give me somewhere to start) trying to learn more about Autism and Asperger's, but so much of it confuses me.

The question I keep coming back to, is at what point do you say a character is Autistic and at what point do you just say he's a social klutz? Because so many behaviors described as being autistic, sound like the traits that would have gotten a kid branded as "weird" or as a nerd or a geek. In fact, a lot of behavior associated with geeks, single-minded obsession with a hobby, bad social skills, etc., is called Autism.

Again, I've decided that my character will be relatively high-functioning. He goes to public schools (though he has an aide to help him with tasks and he sometimes wears headphones when the noise of his classmates gets to be too much) and he sees a therapist and a case manager to help him out. I also have decided that while he's bad at associating with people besides his mom and older sister (his parents are divorced; it was a very ugly divorce, if you're wondering) that he does have talents when it comes to machines and electronics. He loves taking stuff apart and putting them back together and trying to figure out new devices in order to make everyday tasks easier; generally he has an easier time with devices than people; if a device is broken, he can take it apart and figure out what needs to be fixed. It doesn't work that way with people. I hope I've managed to avoid the Autism=Savant trap, but let me know if I haven't.

Anyway, some clearer, more concise information on Autism and its effects and how it differs from being shy or a social klutz, would be nice. Because right now, I'm seriously confused.

I have two kids with ASD, both markedly different. No one is "identical." We had both tested extensively, and there are a number of "indicators".

My daughter is completely oblivious to social cues. If someone falls and hurts themselves, she'll laugh, not because of their pain, but because absent anything else, the fall was funny.
She's horribly inappropriate and incapable of noticing. Horrified stares or glares mean nothing to her. Telling her it is not appropriate garner calm "Why?" questions.
She sees the world from her view and her view only.
She can't stand to be given anything less than a crushing bear hug.
She wears one sock because one foot is hyper sensitive, and the list of foods she'll eat is...interesting.

My son, to contrast, misses social cues, but has been taught and become quite clever at noticing them. What I can't get him to do is quite explaining what other people's expressions are telling him. He CAN see the world from different view points, but it takes you stopping him and asking. Then he'll give you a detailed view of how every single motion, expression, word or tone indicates what kind of probably thought. Similar problems with food, similar hypersensitivity.

Neither are "savants", though my daughter is obsessed with chickens, and my son with legos, though not in the "numeric, counting, fact reciting" sense.

Both get allowances in the classroom as you describe, and my son is pretty good about removing himself from hyperstimulating environments.

We have friends who have far more classic "Autistic" behavior, and so I can say that just about anywhere you imagine a character falling on the spectrum, there's probably a real person who does.

NikkiSloan · Aug 13, 2012

Just to throw in another variation, my niece's 10 year old son with Aspergers is quite intelligent, but his challenge is that he takes what people tell him very literally - sarcasm flies over his head.

Also, he has a very hard time adapting to sudden changes in his schedule or when someone changes (or breaks) "the rules." If you tell him you'll take him out for ice cream at 5:00 - don't just pull the ice cream out of the fridge, you need to 'take him out" for ice cream. And it better be at 5pm because at exactly that hour, he'll be at the door ready to go.

If he's been told to sit and be quiet in class, but some other kids are running around or talking, he can become very upset and sometimes get violent.

But he's not oblivious to others' feelings and will go out of his way to give people presents he thinks will make them happy (and not just to get presents in return). He likes those crushing bear hugs too - they make him feel secure when his world's going out of control.

I'm no expert, but I think this is a very complex disorder and your best option is to make your character an individual and not try for an "average." Also, I think you'll find that many people think these kids are just 'problem kids' or 'bad' or 'social klutzes.'

kuwisdelu · Aug 14, 2012

eggs said:
My nephew is an Aspie. He's about 10 years old. I wouldn't say he is a social klutz, he is in fact highly mannered and tends towards being quite formally perfect in his social interaction. This means that he relates well to older adults who value formality and manners, but poorly to younger people with "modern manners". I sometimes think that the huge increase in Asperges diagnoses has more to do with the decreasing formality of social interactions than an actual increase in Asperges. He's very intelligent and interesting to talk to, but he might whack my kids about the head then run away if they do something noisy and unexpected or irritating. Frankly, I'd like to whack my kids about the head myself when they do noisy and unexpected things or irritate me, but I've been socialized out of that impulse

It's generally much easier to act in a socially acceptable way at more formal occasions because the rules for how you're supposed to act are generally clearer, with fewer exceptions and subtleties. Not so when interacting informally with peers, which is much more complicated.

In general, I see the difference between my nephew and my own kids as being more of an "operating system" difference. He's a Windows 7 and my own kids are Macs. Once you work out how to interact with the different OS it's all pretty straight forward. If I were writing an Aspie character, I wouldn't focus on how he has difficulty in socializing with others, but rather on how others with "modern manners" have difficulty in socializing with him.

I'd say we're definitely more like Linux than Windows. Neurotypical people seem more like Windows. We're definitely more *nix-like, I think. And we often run without a GUI, too, so some users have difficulty interacting with us.

Xelebes said:
When I was diagnosed with Asperger's, there was a physical (motor) component that they tested for which indicated that there were wiring issues. To me, Asperger's is not so much only thinking pattern issue (which would throw it into beharioural disorder or something) but also something that effects the body as a whole.

Something tells me that the physical component is not (often) tested for in the United States to arrive upon the diagnosis.

I wasn't tested for a physical component. I think it was the first thing my mother noticed in me, though.

senka said:
To me it seems that the manners-thing is your nephews way to compensate his lack of "intuitive understanding" of social situations. These formal rules exactly tell him what to do and what not to do in a certain situation, a set of rules that one can simply follow and that help avoid this always present uncertianity autistic people feel during social interaction.
I've seen a few autistic people handle it that way, and heard about a few more that do it, but, nevertheless, it's nothing that could be applied to all of them. I know a woman with Asperger's who rather tries to find logic and usefulness within everything, and thus questions many things others consider polite and "good manners". A person not knowing her background would probably consider her quite bad-mannered and rude.

Yup.

My point here is - there is no "autistic people are like this and that". They have completely different personalities and you can have your believeable autistic character being a shy introvert nerd, a or a punk with green mohawk, whatever you like. It's more the difficulties with certain things they have in common, not the way they try to cope with it.

Yup.

Debbie V said:
An autistic child will never attend college, an Aspergers child most certainly will.

I sure wouldn't say that. At the high end, there's pretty much no difference between what gets called autism and Asperger's. I believe in the next DSM, they're just folding Asperger's into the rest of the spectrum. It'll just be ASD.

StephanieFox · Aug 14, 2012

The Otter said:
I'd recommend reading some of Temple Grandin's work (which I keep meaning to do myself). The movie about her is also quite good. There's also a memoir by a man with AS called Look Me in the Eye.

I interviewed Temple Grandin, over the telephone, for an article. Her speech pattern was very hurried and there wasn't much inflection in her voice. I'm wondering if she would talk with you. She teaches (I forget at what college) but she returned my call and seems very OK to be interviewed.

itsmary · Aug 14, 2012

One of my closest friends has Asperger's. Unless you really got to know her, you wouldn't be able to tell that there was anything medically wrong with her. I had no clue she had Asperger's until I'd known her for almost two years.
One thing she's mentioned multiple times is her inability to connect with others or to understand human emotions. Up until about three years ago, when she started dating the guy she's with now, she had zero interest in dating. And a lot of people don't get serious boyfriends/girlfriends until their early 20's, but usually it's because they can't. It's not that she couldn't -- she just didn't want to. She's a writer too, and any time we discuss something we've both read or something I've written, she complains about the romance in the story and why she doesn't understand why writers find it necessary to put romance in every story.
Asperger's goes well beyond being shy or klutzy. Obviously every character will be different, but that's the thing that stuck out to me that she mentions in relation to Asperger's and autism -- the inability to always fully understand human relationships.

Kdaw · Aug 16, 2012

I work with autistic children that are lower functioning, and quite different from your character. I still like to say something.
If you have seen one autist, you have seen one autist. Their just as different as we are.

you mention that autist in general have problems with assosiating with people. They often feel treathen when their zone of intimacy is intruded, this has led to some saying that autist don't want human contact. This is wrong they need just as we. They need the hug, we just have to give it in a way they can cope with

NyxAustin · Aug 17, 2012

Diagnosed with aspergers here at a young age. When diagnosed I was quite severe (non verbal for pretty much the whole year the same year I was diagnosed). I'd say the main point to listen to here is that people are different. Also remember that the entire list of autistic traits is not going to be shown by one person. They will have some on the list, and not have others.

As for the difference between autism and aspergers which has been raised, there is a lot of cross over and they are taking to merging them together because of it. Technically it comes down to when you started speaking. If you started speaking too late then it is put down as autism, if you started speaking within the right window then aspergers.

I started speaking just a little late and did not speak in the right fashion (I spoke as if each syllable were a seperate word), but because I spoke then I was down as aspergers. People change a lot when growing up, so you'll have the teenager with autism out perform the teenager with aspergers and vice versa.

taichiquan.panda · Aug 17, 2012

Debbie V said:
An autistic child will never attend college,

I hate to disagree, but I'm afraid you are incorrect. My best friend of nearly 20 years has a son with autism. He didn't speak until he was almost four. He had many other traits as well, such as an inability to look directly at the person he was speaking to, avoidance of personal contact (hugs) and referring to himself in the third person.

My best friend is a single mother, and she worked tirelessly with her son. He was in special education classes exclusively until high school and is now in his second year of college.

So yes, an autistic child can become a college student, no child is "typical". My friend's son is, fortunately, high functioning. My friend researched, researched, and researched until she found what she was looking for....remember, this was almost 20 years ago when autism was a blip on the medical radar. And she devoted herself completely to his care. She worked with schools, counselors, disability groups, etc, to ensure her son can have a happy and full life.

She is my hero, he is a success story.

Chasing the Horizon · Aug 17, 2012

Emermouse said:
Anyway, some clearer, more concise information on Autism and its effects and how it differs from being shy or a social klutz, would be nice. Because right now, I'm seriously confused.

Well, I can tell you that being shy often has nothing at all to do with ASD/missing social cues. I was very shy as a child and am still quiet in group situations not because I miss social cues, but because I'm hyper-aware of them. I notice every nuance of body-language, tone, and expression and my brain automatically starts extrapolating emotions from these clues. You can imagine how completely overwhelming that level of awareness gets in a large group of people. I have great social skills one-on-one, though. I've known quite a few other shy people with the same problem (and many of them also turned out to have a mood disorder, like me).

What others have said about people with ASD thinking very differently is true. I've had several friends with high-functioning ASD and their perspectives were fascinating. What many people interpreted as them "missing" things and reacting inappropriately was really just them interpreting situations through their own logic, which I came to realize was often much simpler and more logical than my own.

You should definitely get to know some people with ASD to get a good idea of how to write your character.

HarryHoskins · Aug 17, 2012

The BBC has recently being showing quite a number of Autism focused documentaries. They may not be directly related to high functioning Autism/Aspergers -- but I think they may give good insight into the condition and those who live with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01lyczl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beautiful_Young_Minds

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01gk4xc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00m5jb4

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