In Defense of (White) Marriage

JohnnyGottaKeyboard

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I'm curious, given the ongoing debate on the acceptability of opposing gay marriage, what the forum's thoughts are on a church refusing to marry a black (not interracial) couple, based upon tradition. (A second link.)
There has never been a black wedding at the First Baptist Church in Crystal Springs, Miss., since its founding in 1883. According to Pastor Stan Weatherford, some church members objected so strongly to breaking that precedent, they threatened to oust him from his pastorship.

Rather than risk his job, Weatherford, who is white, said he decided to marry the pair at a black church down the road.
I admit the congregation has "moxie" considering that they must have known their stance would ignite a very vigorous outcry. And churches are private, right? So they can marry and/or refuse to marry whomever they wish?
 

regdog

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According to this churches can legally discriminate. That said, I would wonder anyone would want to worship in a place that believes in discrimination and hatred.
 

missesdash

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Funny how some towns never desegregated. How do you imagine the congregation of that church feels when they turn on the TV and see the president of their country is black?

The south has some really great examples of the neutralization effect. Maybe it's because rural areas allow for more isolation.
 

crunchyblanket

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And churches are private, right? So they can marry and/or refuse to marry whomever they wish?

If they're in receipt of any kind of public funding, then it ought to be withdrawn. Otherwise, they can indulge in any kind of bigoted practice they fancy, but in the interests of fairness and freedom of speech, the rest of us should be able to talk loudly and widely about what a nasty, prejudiced bunch of dicksores they are.
 

regdog

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If they're in receipt of any kind of public funding, then it ought to be withdrawn. Otherwise, they can indulge in any kind of bigoted practice they fancy, but in the interests of fairness and freedom of speech, the rest of us should be able to talk loudly and widely about what a nasty, prejudiced bunch of dicksores they are.


In MA Catholic Charities did receive state funds so the state required them to adopt to gay couples. CC ended all adoptions here.
 

LAgrunion

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If they're in receipt of any kind of public funding, then it ought to be withdrawn.

In an indirect way, churches (as well as all charities) do receive public money.

Under US tax law, charities are tax-exempt organizations. Donations to charities are deductible by the donors on their Federal income tax returns.

Economically speaking, tax exemptions and deductions are essentially a form of government subsidy. Another way of looking at it is that the government is essentially imposing a tax on organizations that aren't charities and people who don't make charitable donations.

There are some people who advocate getting rid of both tax-exempt status for all charities and charitable deductions:

1. One can argue that a donation is a form of personal consumption no different from, say, buying a book. In both cases, the "consumer" is spending money to make him/herself happy.

2. This way, atheists don't have to worry about subsidy going to churches, anti-abortion advocates don't have to fret over subsidy to Planned Parenthood, carnivores won't see subsidy to PETA, etc.

ETA:

Sorry about the derail into tax policy.

But back to the original post. As offensive as this church's policy is, I'm glad this came out. It's good to have more transparency re people's views. This way, the consumers (churchgoers) are better informed and they can decide whether to attend this church in the future.
 
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Plot Device

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According to this churches can legally discriminate. That said, I would wonder anyone would want to worship in a place that believes in discrimination and hatred.


I haven't read the article yet. However, I suspect the couple might not worship there. Instead, they might have been shopping for a pretty picture postcard church as a backdrop to the ceremony, and decided that this Baptist church fit the bill.

On the other hand, the fact that they wanted that particular pastor to perform the ceremony suggests they have a relationship with him, so perhaps they DO worship there.

If they do worship there, I can't imagine who these assholes are who have "tolerated" the presense of various black young single adults in their worship services, and at their strawberry suppers, and with whom they have literally broken bread, and yet would deny those same congregants the honor of a wedding ceremony in their frigging building.

Honestly, the logic-twisting blindness of some of these exceptionally flawed --staggeringly flawed-- Christians is just jaw dropping.





A third possibility is that they never truly worshipped there, but they went to a few private counseling sessions with the pastor and he was able to help them iron out a few kinks in their relatinship. And so now that they want to tie the knot, they perhaps decided that the man who gave them such excellent relationship counseling should be the one to do it. Which means the other folks in that church probably don't know the couple at all. Regardless, they are just blowing me away with their slavish devotion to "tradition"-- a tradition of the sort that flies in the face of Jesus' admonition to love one another.
 

Lyv

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I haven't read the article yet. However, I suspect the couple might not worship there.
They do. Or did. They weren't members, but that's not why they weren't allowed to marry there, something they were notified of two days before their wedding.

I found this:

Wilson said he had been attending the church for about a month and his now wife had been attending for more than a year. His wife's father also attended the church, and her uncle was custodian at the church.

But the reason they were turned away doesn't appear to be in question. It's not number of times they attended the church; it's the color of their skin. I've said to those who insist churches will have to marry same-sex couples that churches can legally turn away couples for reasons like this, and as terrible as I feel for he the couple, I won't hesitate to use this case in fighting for marriage equality.
 
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robeiae

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I haven't read the article yet. However, I suspect the couple might not worship there.
According to the article, they do.


The most surprising thing in this story is the pastor's *apparent* refusal to take a stand. It's only the pastor--from what I've seen--talking about "some church members." I'd like to sit in on a meeting or two...
 

Chrissy

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Those members might be the church's biggest contributors.

Sounds nauseatingly familiar.
 

dolores haze

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The most surprising thing in this story is the pastor's *apparent* refusal to take a stand. It's only the pastor--from what I've seen--talking about "some church members." I'd like to sit in on a meeting or two...

A few years ago I was interviewing a recently unemployed pastor for a position with the agency I worked for. When I asked him why he'd left his last position he gave me the vague "time for a new challenge" answer. When I pressed him, the interview derailed into a discussion of the power of the congregation and the elders in small independent churches. After the interview, the other two people on the interview panel, who were both elders in their respective churches, educated me on the issue, with their explanation going all the way back to the Protestant Reformation. Their basic explanation was that the pastor serves at the will of the congregation, though they gave many examples of how fierce the squabbling can get. I learned a lot that day!
 

clintl

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The church is legally free to discriminate, but a very, very bright light should be shined on the bigots.
 

muravyets

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I don't think they knew how unwelcoming the church would be until the wedding was about to happen. From what I read, it seemed like not even the pastor expected this reaction from the congregation.

So apparently, it didn't surface before. It seems to me the congregation didn't raise any kind of fuss about black worshippers attending services but kicked at the idea of making black people the center of attention via a special service like a wedding. One little wedding, and they're ready to fire their pastor? Damn.

Kind of an eye-opener, that, eh?
 

Teinz

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What would Jesus have to say about this? I think he would grab a whip and cleanse his temple from the bigots.

What never fails to amaze me is the power some members of a congregation can have. In my old church, certain "Ouderlingen" (Elders), have worked out two preachers in the past five years, because they weren't orthodox enough. Which means they only let preachers climb the pulpitt, that will endorse the same message they believe in. Which renders the preacher powerless and, in a way, irrelevant.

Maybe the same applies in the story.
 

robeiae

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A few years ago I was interviewing a recently unemployed pastor for a position with the agency I worked for. When I asked him why he'd left his last position he gave me the vague "time for a new challenge" answer. When I pressed him, the interview derailed into a discussion of the power of the congregation and the elders in small independent churches. After the interview, the other two people on the interview panel, who were both elders in their respective churches, educated me on the issue, with their explanation going all the way back to the Protestant Reformation. Their basic explanation was that the pastor serves at the will of the congregation, though they gave many examples of how fierce the squabbling can get. I learned a lot that day!
It can be very much like this, true.

However, it's also possible to have a pastor basically controlling the church, oftentimes by having a few very wealthy/powerful members in his or her pocket. I've experienced this. The pastor is always the "good guy," but is actually driving decisions via the powerful members under his or her control.

This situation seems very strange to me. I can't fathom how a conscientious pastor would allow things to get to this point, reserving the date, making arrangements, etc., knowing the feelings of "some members" from the beginning.

My point is, I wouldn't take it as a given that the pastor is one of the "good guys" on this.
 

muravyets

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What would Jesus have to say about this? I think he would grab a whip and cleanse his temple from the bigots.

What never fails to amaze me is the power some members of a congregation can have. In my old church, certain "Ouderlingen" (Elders), have worked out two preachers in the past five years, because they weren't orthodox enough. Which means they only let preachers climb the pulpitt, that will endorse the same message they believe in. Which renders the preacher powerless and, in a way, irrelevant.

Maybe the same applies in the story.
I think so.
 

Susan Coffin

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The article says that the couple frequented the church and had arrangements to get married there, but the congregation threatened to fire the pastor if he went forward with the ceremony.

Since the couple went to this church, they must have been aware that racism was alive and well. Why did they worship in such a place, much less plan to have their wedding there? Perhaps they were hoping they could change history. Who knows.

What a hateful, bigoted congregation, and that pastor is a wimp.

A part of me wants to say I'm not surprised, since racism seems more accepted in the deep south, but that is too much of a generalization. Racism can exist anywhere, and probably still exists in more churches than we realize.

My dad lives in Arkansas (he moved there about 20 years ago), and a few years back he told me about an African American family moving in but being chased out of town. Disgusting how this kind of behavior still goes on.
 

Susan Coffin

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What would Jesus have to say about this? I think he would grab a whip and cleanse his temple from the bigots.

What never fails to amaze me is the power some members of a congregation can have. In my old church, certain "Ouderlingen" (Elders), have worked out two preachers in the past five years, because they weren't orthodox enough. Which means they only let preachers climb the pulpitt, that will endorse the same message they believe in.

Jesus would never go for the congregation's behavior.

There's power in groups, and most congregations do hire preachers who will back up their unified belief, whether it's progressive or old school. This now makes me ask why the bigoted congregation hired the preacher in the first place, and why the pastor chose to work there.
 

Lyv

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Since the couple went to this church, they must have been aware that racism was alive and well.
I don't think it's safe to assume that at all. It's possible they were aware. It's also possible they never saw any signs that they weren't welcome before this. Perhaps the bigots in the congregation smiled to their faces, or simply didn't approach while others in the congregation--those who are outraged by the racism of the others--were friendly enough that they never noticed the others.

The pastor claims only a few objected to the wedding and I've seen quotes from outraged church members in various articles. Apparently, though, it's the members who hold the power who threatened him and to whom he bowed. I wonder about other actions he could have taken, like trying to rally the majority in support or simply standing up to the bigots, thus risking his job. That's just spitballing, though. It's a sickening story, in any case,
 

The_Riskbreaker

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Sadly, this is all due to a wrong understanding of the Bible. It warns against marriages of saved + unsaved, but never interracial marriage. (see http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n1/interracial-marriage)

I find it appalling that the whole congregation was will to boot the pastor if he married them. That, as many have nodded to, is like the 50's-60's and segregation all over again. *sigh*
I hope they get married, even if it ain't at this "church".
 

Susan Coffin

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I don't think it's safe to assume that at all. It's possible they were aware. It's also possible they never saw any signs that they weren't welcome before this. Perhaps the bigots in the congregation smiled to their faces, or simply didn't approach while others in the congregation--those who are outraged by the racism of the others--were friendly enough that they never noticed the others.

Excellent point, thank you.

The pastor claims only a few objected to the wedding and I've seen quotes from outraged church members in various articles. Apparently, though, it's the members who hold the power who threatened him and to whom he bowed. I wonder about other actions he could have taken, like trying to rally the majority in support or simply standing up to the bigots, thus risking his job. That's just spitballing, though. It's a sickening story, in any case,

Sadly, it's often the people who have the money who lead the congregation a certain way. It is a sickening story.