First or Third POV?

Maybe I'm reading the wrong kind of erotica, but most that I've downloaded lately is 3rd person. 'And the erotica paperback I just finished today was 3rd person. (Past Midnight by Jasmine Haynes, which I highly recommend.)

I hope there isn't an unwritten rule because the manuscript I submitted a couple of weeks ago was 3rd person, and my current WIP is also 3rd.

Interesting.

I write and read a ton of M/M erotica and it's all been in 3rd person. I was actually concerned because one of my WIPs is in first person, and I thought it might be a harder sell. I've never seen erotica in first person before.

I don't think you guys have anything to worry about.

I haven't done the market research in a few years, but the last time I did, there were quite a few markets that specifically said NO first person.

FWIW, virtually all of my published erotica has been written in third person.

M.Macabre said:

I discovered several posts that pretty much said, ''I won't read anything but first person erotica.''

Is this an ''unwritten rule''

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It's not a rule at all.

But I prefer to write erotica in the first person. It's more comfortable, and it's easier for me to portray emotions and responses this way.

Write the story you wish to tell. All other considerations are secondary.

I write (and sell) both quite regularly, although I think I trend slightly more toward third person. It just depends of the characters and voice and mood and what the story needs.

I write ALL of my erotica in first person. Including (especially!) my M/M and M/M/M. Never run into any problems because of it, even when I use multiple POVs.

M.Macabre said:

Well that's a relief! The more I look at it, I think it might be a recent trend, a la fifty shades.

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Oh God I hope not. >.< Just what I need...another reason for someone to ask if I'm writing "like 50 Shades." *headdesk* Yeah. I had 30-some books out, all but three of them in first person, before 50 Shades came out. Totally following that trend...

Most of the erotica I read is in third person. There are some great first person pieces too, though. I've always had the impression both are acceptable.

And LOL @ Lori. No matter what genre you write, people are going to compare it to the most popular works in the genre. When I told people I write epic fantasy I used to always hear "Oh, like Harry Potter!" (um, no). Now I hear "Oh, like Game of Thrones!" (no, but I guess that's closer than Harry Potter).

Getting compared to 50 Shades would be a special kind of horrible, though, lol.

Chasing the Horizon said:

And LOL @ Lori. No matter what genre you write, people are going to compare it to the most popular works in the genre. When I told people I write epic fantasy I used to always hear "Oh, like Harry Potter!" (um, no). Now I hear "Oh, like Game of Thrones!" (no, but I guess that's closer than Harry Potter).

Getting compared to 50 Shades would be a special kind of horrible, though, lol.

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Comparisons get annoying, but yes, being compared to 50 Shades is its own special brand of teeth-gnashing hell. I'll take comparisons to GoT or Harry Potter any day of the week over that.

M.Macabre said:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you with that. Let me elaborate: I don't read erotica, but I do write it, so when I research I generally look at popular new releases, which in this case were probably riding the curtails of 50shades.

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Oh, no worries.

On a slightly related note:
The posts I read were specifically about the m/m genre, so do you think first POV is more common in m/m? If so, is it a reader preference, or because using I/he is easier to write than he/he?

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I can't speak for anyone else, but the first time I tried writing an M/M sex scene in third person, I almost went cross-eyed from the pronoun confusion and name repetition. Especially when I started writing same-sex threesomes, I wasn't even going to go there in third person. Wrote all my same-sex stuff in first after that, and started doing the same with my hetero stories. After about 30-some-odd books, I tried writing a hetero story in third, and it was like pulling teeth, so somewhere along the line, first became my default setting.

I'd always choose 'person' based on the material being told. I tend to think that first person really suits journal type narratives, confessional writing, sexual exploration accounts, etc. It's a really intimate point of view with a highly personalised voice, and at some level I always feel it implicates a sense of who the story is being told to.

By contrast, third person often seems to pretend that the narrative exists independently of readers; that it's simply and flatly 'what happened'. A lot of readers (and writers) love third person for its increased omniscience. You can more easily describe the main character's physical traits and there's more room for irony (what we know vs what the characters know). Certain subgenres like erotic romance seem to greatly prefer third person.

These are generalisations of course; I'm sure there are many different ways in which each point of view can be used.

By the way, I wrote a third person same-gender threesome without too much difficulty. In my story they were each dressed in masks so became easy to describe as what they were wearing ('the vixen', 'the cat', etc) as well as other traits. If the bodies and faces aren't well distinguished then it's probably an uphill battle letting the reader know whose body part is doing what to whom.

Vary your protagonists, think up shorthand descriptions, and to some extent the problem vanishes.

I've written a few non-erotic stories in first person, but generally I'm more comfortable writing in the third person. Of course I can remember when even having my characters kiss made me uncomfortable. Now my characters are quite . . . inventive. And pretty limber.

A lot of what I see is in third honestly. However, that's just my experience. I have seen some in first. But I still think I see a bit more in third, if not, the "levels" are at least even. In other words, you have nothing to worry about I think.

Julie Ambrose said:

I'd always choose 'person' based on the material being told.

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This was how I did it when I got started, and it certainly works for plenty of authors. For me, I started writing in first so much, it became my default setting. I've even taken a story I wrote in third and then rewrote it in first. I have yet to run into a story that would have been better served if I'd written it in third instead of first. I think it's just my natural storytelling voice.

By the way, I wrote a third person same-gender threesome without too much difficulty. In my story they were each dressed in masks so became easy to describe as what they were wearing ('the vixen', 'the cat', etc) as well as other traits. If the bodies and faces aren't well distinguished then it's probably an uphill battle letting the reader know whose body part is doing what to whom.

Vary your protagonists, think up shorthand descriptions, and to some extent the problem vanishes.

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Overuse of epithets drive me about as bonkers as name repetition and pronoun confusion, so that kind of thing hasn't worked for me. And for what it's worth, I sometimes have a hard time reading sex scenes written in third because I can't not notice the name repetition. Just a personal quirk that makes it hard for me to read or write in third.


But the bottom line, first and third POVs are both perfectly valid in erotic romance. I think Harlequin is the only publisher I've ever seen that required third person (and this was at few years ago, I haven't checked recently). If a story is better told in first, or that's the author's stronger voice, then by all means, go for it.

thethinker42 said:

I think Harlequin is the only publisher I've ever seen that required third person (and this was at few years ago, I haven't checked recently).

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I'm not sure but some of their HQN books have first person I think. Again, I think. Haha.

Silver-Midnight said:

I'm not sure but some of their HQN books have first person I think. Again, I think. Haha.

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I think they accept it now, but I remember reading their submission guidelines -- at least for certain imprints -- and seeing a requirement for third person. That was actually why I wrote my first few hetero romances in third, because I a) thought it was what was done and b) planned on at least trying to get in with Harlequin.

Fast forward to today, I have three books published in third person and the rest (~30 or so) in first. Never run into a problem because of using first person, even when it's multiple POV.

thethinker42 said:

I think they accept it now, but I remember reading their submission guidelines -- at least for certain imprints -- and seeing a requirement for third person. That was actually why I wrote my first few hetero romances in third, because I a) thought it was what was done and b) planned on at least trying to get in with Harlequin.

Fast forward to today, I have three books published in third person and the rest (~30 or so) in first. Never run into a problem because of using first person, even when it's multiple POV.

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I used to think it was a requirement as well. However, I kept running into stories written in first. So, that went quickly out the window.

Personally, like I said, for reading it doesn't matter. For writing, however, I like third person. But at the same I write mostly M/F romances or "romanticly-themed" pieces. So, while the gender confusion does still happen. I don't think it occurs as often as it would say if I were writing M/M or F/F or something like that. That's just a guess though.