How do fantasy agents approach the MSes they read?

scribbledoutname · Jul 22, 2012

Do they read them like normal readers (for enjoyment, only giving up on a story if errors jar them out or if they know they can't sell it) or are they hyper-aware of and averse to any element of storytelling that isn't strictly encouraged?

I'm struggling to decide whether I should keep something or not, and I'm leaning toward keeping it, but I don't know if it's a good idea.

Basically, my MC is shipped off to live with some relatives in the middle of nowhere, but she cheers up when she susses out that they can do magic. She convinces them to teach her said magic (it goes against her parents' wishes, who didn't want her to know), and they introduce her to the wonders of my story's magic world. Although it logically follow's my story's arc, a lot of it is reader wish-fulfillment coupled with anticipation (of future magic lessons), foreshadowing of the story's antagonist(s) and bridging conflict.

As a result, the primary antagonist doesn't show up until chapter five or six (depending on whether I make chapter one a prologue or not) and doesn't actively start making my main character's life hell until chapter seven. Each chapter is about 3k. That's about 18k in. I could summarise a lot of it, but I want to keep it -- not because I'm emotionally attached to it but because I'd personally find it interesting as a reader. It's a sort of J.K. Rowling-could-have-summarized-most-of-diagon-alley-and-much-of-the-train-ride-and-the-mostly-conflictless-school-feast predicament; all that stuff J.K. included wasn't needed because it could have been cut down and the hidden clues inserted elsewhere, but it was interesting and part of the escape, so it was fun.

I also did a check -- the first third of Sorceror's Stone plot is basically Harry running around doing/seeing interesting stuff that isn't related to the main plot, with brief foreshadowing and subtle clues thrown in. Snape is the main antagonist but he shows up in chapter eight (which is a good 32k in). So I guess it could work?

I mean, there's Malfoy, but he's more of a subplot, and I do have subplot antagonists...

Aargh. I can't tell if agents and editors read by feel, and simply see if a story keeps their interest without jarring them out of the narrative, or if they think in terms of story structure and proportion and have an idea of what a story should be like and have rigid expectations based on that. I doubt normal readers would mind but sometimes I feel like A/Es are more stringent about conforming to expectations than a normal reader would be, and 'fun' or 'interesting' doesn't matter to them nearly as much -- I don't know if I'm really mistaken?

So are agents/editors generally more like:"This is interesting, so I'm enjoying this!"
Or are they usually thinking: "Inciting incident doesn't occur until chapter two. Five chapters and the main conflict hasn't shown up yet. Tsk, tsk..."?

PS: It's 5am so sorry if most of this makes NO sense, my brain is frazzled, one of my eyes is twitching, aargh I should totally sleep but I'm trying to figure out what's best for this MS and my brain won't shut up. If my mum walked in and saw my bloodshot eyes right now she would probably scream. Okay... forcing myself to go to bed in 3... 2... 1... *flop*

CatchingADragon · Jul 22, 2012

Disclaimer: I'm not an agent, nor do I have one, nor do I personally know any; this is only my opinion...

Since they go through a lot of manuscripts, I don't imagine agents read manuscripts like normal readers; they are probably a lot more sensitive to certain cliches, newbie mistakes, and whatever pet peeves they've developed, and are probably less forgiving when they come across something they don't like because they've got to get through a large number of submissions and will only end up choosing a very small percentage to represent.

That said, I think in the end the only "rule" that really matters is keeping the reader's interest, whether that reader is an agent or not. If an agent becomes engaged in a story, I can't imagine him or her rejecting it because of any other story "rule" it breaks. I bet they think more like "This is interesting, so I'm enjoying this!"

Of course, what sort of story will interest any certain agent is super-subjective; I don't think there's any way to absolutely guarantee his or her interest. But certainly the guide of what you as the writer find interesting is probably the best starting place.

I'll admit that my story is similar to yours in the regard that an introduction to a magic system and its world takes the stage before the antagonists show up. My antagonists don't come in until Chapter 13, 34K words into the story! I'm sure I'll do some heavy word-chopping with revisions, but I'm definitely in the same boat of having late-to-the-party antagonists.

Also, I guess even before an agent will ask for our manuscripts, we'll have to interest them with knock-out queries first anyway.

Polenth · Jul 22, 2012

Agents don't sit there with a checklist of rules the story must follow. But they're also not going to keep reading a boring story, because the author assures them it gets better in chapter six. Those early chapters need to be entertaining and look like they're going somewhere.

buz · Jul 23, 2012

Agents are generally looking for a gripping read, a good story, a strong voice, and compelling characters.

I'm not quite sure what any of that means.

None of it is defined, and agents are as variable as Real People (they are, yanno, people).

Buffysquirrel · Jul 23, 2012

Do yourself a favour and stop using HP as your benchmark. Unless you're planning to send your book only to Christopher Little and some seventeen years ago, what they saw in Rowling's book isn't relevant to what agents may see in yours.

There are many more Fantasy books than HP out there that have gained representation and been sold to publishers. If you want to know what agents are looking for now, the closest you can get is to read books coming out now, not last century.

Katrina S. Forest · Jul 23, 2012

My antagonist doesn't show up until chapter 6. It takes several chapters more for my mc to realize he's doing any harm. I seem to maintain a decent request ratio (at least according to other AWers) all the same.

Sometimes an antagonist isn't the source of the main problem, he or she is just there to make things worse. Don't compare your work to Harry Potter. Do you have actual conflict throughout those early chapters or not? That should be your basis for deciding what to do with them, not what JK Rowling did.

scribbledoutname · Jul 23, 2012

Katrina S. Forest said:
I seem to maintain a decent request ratio (at least according to other AWers) all the same.

Do you have actual conflict throughout those early chapters or not?

That's a relief.

I do have conflict

I'm not actually basing what I'm doing on J.K. Rowling's methods, though, just occasionally using the feelings I got from her book as a reference point for whether or not something might work. I do this with a lot of books. When I write I think, "How would this make me feel if I was reading it?" and it's a bit easier when I can clearly remember a book that actually did it.

I honestly keep forgetting that agents are Real People. In my the back of my head they're these almost formless gatekeeping forces, and I don't know what they're thinking, but they're colder than contest judges and they always wear sombre expressions.

I think my brain just does that. In the same way that spiders are all sinister to me and I jump when I click over to a web page with a close-up of a spider's face.

Pyrohawk · Jul 24, 2012

Hmmm.... I'm actually facing the exact same problem in my WIP. I'm 15k words in and my antagonist hasn't even been heard of. Honestly, I've been having a lot of fun just watching my MC discover his powers and wandering around. Frankly, I didn't intend for him to show up until about halfway through (25k...ish). Is that a problem?

So far.... MC gains powers and learns of an alternate universe where "others" live, powers manifest and he spends a couple chapters learning to use them/get them under control, he is transported to the alternate universe and is currently wandering around the woods trying to figure out how to get back.
Basically he is just kind of thrust in to all of this. A being gives him these powers to save his life after an accident. But in return asks him if he will fight for him. MC agree's. Boom, he's back to life with no chance to ask any questions. Now stuff keeps happening to him and he doesn't have a clue whats going on, aside from vague hints thrown out by the being who gave him the powers.

Part of me is concerned there isn't enough conflict... but another part of me feels the mystery and confusion is enough conflict for now. Besides, the nature of my story leads to the MC kind of being his own antagonist in a way. It's one of those, I don't know if I should root for the protagonist or antagonist kind of stories. So watching how he develops mentally and his personality is half the fun.

I dunno.... I'm just gonna keep writing the way I'm enjoying it. No need to fret about the details until I at least finish the first draft anyway.

CatchingADragon · Jul 24, 2012

Pyrohawk said:
Part of me is concerned there isn't enough conflict... but another part of me feels the mystery and confusion is enough conflict for now.

That's kind of how I feel about my opening chapters. I think there must be some sort of balance to find with mystery and confusion. As a reader or movie watcher, I often get really annoyed when other characters withhold too much info from the MC; it can feel like a cheap trick to try to keep my attention. There has to be a believable reason for the mystery.

At the same time, though, I don't want long info-dumps that will just confuse me even more.

Actually, I think I'll probably start another thread on this issue, because it's definitely something I'll be thinking about whenever I finish my first draft and start revisions.

Anyway, I think this overall issue of late antagonists is perhaps a product of the set-up needed to make the antagonists and their conflicts make sense. In our fantasy worlds, the characters and their worlds and magic systems just need more set-up time than usual, so it's all about making those establishing chapters interesting in and of themselves.

Another thing I fear about my WIP is not making my MC active enough; I'm not sure he wants something specific enough for his pre-antagonist plights to be interesting to readers. There is certainly some conflict even without the main antagonists, but I fear he may be too reactive instead of proactive in those conflicts, which risks boring readers. He does, however, have powers nobody else does, so I'm hoping that will attract some interest in those opening chapters...

Parataxis · Jul 24, 2012

CatchingADragon said:
Another thing I fear about my WIP is not making my MC active enough; I'm not sure he wants something specific enough for his pre-antagonist plights to be interesting to readers. There is certainly some conflict even without the main antagonists, but I fear he may be too reactive instead of proactive in those conflicts, which risks boring readers. He does, however, have powers nobody else does, so I'm hoping that will attract some interest in those opening chapters...

This is something you should definitely pay attention to. Agency is very important in stories, especially if the main plot won't hit for a couple chapters. I don't introduce the main antagonist of my story until just before the midpoint, but I feel like I can get away with it because he's at the end of the trail of breadcrumbs about the FNC's parent's murder. At every point she's motivated by finding out what's going on and takes a number of risks to do so.

So think: Your character is living with his Aunt and Uncle...why? Why does he convince them to teach him magic? Is it more of a "Magic is cool!" or even an "I want to be special" or maybe "I want to do something specific and I need to lay the ground work for it"? These are all good routes into motivating why your character does things.

Little Anonymous Me · Jul 24, 2012

*may be biased because it takes her antagonist ~15k to show up*

I think it works. The thing about fantasy is there is often so much setting up to do before the main conflict can even start. I don't mean that as an excuse for nothing to happen (I've run into several books where this is the case), but it takes a bit more time. I think some good foreshadowing and hints that all isn't fine and dandy can definitely go a long way in this situation.

BKeen · Jul 24, 2012

As long as there are conflicts within the subplots prior to the antagonist's emergence, it works. Most readers love to hate someone, anyone. Throw in someone who's a pain early on and you're good to go. I also like the primary antagonist to appear later in the story- especially if his or her true nature is foreshadowed in a creative manner prior to the point where it is undeniable that they are the bad guy. Utilizing this technique adds a certain mystery to any story, and that leaves the reader turning pages to find out what happens next.

BKeen · Jul 24, 2012

Little Anonymous Me said:
*may be biased because it takes her antagonist ~15k to show up*

I think it works. The thing about fantasy is there is often so much setting up to do before the main conflict can even start. I don't mean that as an excuse for nothing to happen (I've run into several books where this is the case), but it takes a bit more time. I think some good foreshadowing and hints that all isn't fine and dandy can definitely go a long way in this situation.

Great advice. The setup in fantasy does take the lead early. It's difficult sometimes, but I try to do so through plot points, rather than just throwing things out to the reader. Doing so makes everything flow better for me, and incorporating my intentions for the reader's view of the world in the story into the plot keeps me from feeling that things are getting stale. This creates a comfort zone for me to bring in the antagonist later on.

Little Anonymous Me · Jul 24, 2012

BKeen said:
Great advice. The setup in fantasy does take the lead early. It's difficult sometimes, but I try to do so through plot points, rather than just throwing things out to the reader. Doing so makes everything flow better for me, and incorporating my intentions for the reader's view of the world in the story into the plot keeps me from feeling that things are getting stale. This creates a comfort zone for me to bring in the antagonist later on.

Thanks!

Fantasy has a case of the rules not applying with things like this, IMO, because it seldom works well to throw readers into some huge conflict with characters they don't know in some strange, confusing world. Tension must be built. Cultures must be understood. MEAD MUST BE DRUNK. (I think this also contributes to the door-stopper syndrome that plagues the genre.)

BKeen · Jul 24, 2012

Little Anonymous Me said:
Thanks! Fantasy has a case of the rules not applying with things like this, IMO, because it seldom works well to throw readers into some huge conflict with characters they don't know in some strange, confusing world. Tension must be built. Cultures must be understood. MEAD MUST BE DRUNK. (I think this also contributes to the door-stopper syndrome that plagues the genre.)

Absolutely, the balance between having a MC thrown into the fray with foreign creatures and an unknown magic system and line by line detailing (The sky is red, the world is flat, people cast spells) is a crucial element to having a believable fantasy world with an entertaining story. That's what's so wonderful the genre- the fact that there isn't a right or wrong way as long as it keeps people turning pages. As for the whole door stopper sydrome, I'm not opposed to a long book as long as it done in a manner that continually adds to the world and the information provided about the world is pertinent to the story. I'd rather read a so called "door stopper" and know or at least have an idea as to how certain aspects of the world in the story work and affect the characters/plot etc rather than be left devoid of info.

Mr Flibble · Jul 24, 2012

Little Anonymous Me said:
*may be biased because it takes her antagonist ~15k to show up*

Pfft, mine turns up in person about 10k from the end

Ofc he's doing stuff in the background all the while, screwing with my MC.

Make it interesting. It should have conflict - this doesn't have to be THE conflict, but maybe it could lead into it.

Little Anonymous Me · Jul 24, 2012

BKeen said:
The sky is red, the world is flat, people cast spells

I feel as though my plot has been exposed. :tongue

BKeen said:
That's what's so wonderful the genre- the fact that there isn't a right or wrong way as long as it keeps people turning pages.

This is essential to all genres of writing, but it somehow becomes most apparent to me in fantasy (again, in my completely unbiased fantasy writer opinion). It seems as though it has become fashionable for everything to happen really quickly in books--blame movie culture, I suppose--and the trend falls away from just letting things move along at a more reasonable pace.

IdiotsRUs said:
Pfft, mine turns up in person about 10k from the end Ofc he's doing stuff in the background all the while, screwing with my MC.

Make it interesting. It should have conflict - this doesn't have to be THE conflict, but maybe it could lead into it.

You make me feel so much better about my character making his huge, plot changing decision around 50K. :tongue

BKeen · Jul 24, 2012

Little Anonymous Me said:
This is essential to all genres of writing, but it somehow becomes most apparent to me in fantasy (again, in my completely unbiased fantasy writer opinion). It seems as though it has become fashionable for everything to happen really quickly in books--blame movie culture, I suppose--and the trend falls away from just letting things move along at a more reasonable pace.

Yeah, I just imagine the guy who does movie previews talking about a book as if it is an action thriller. Pace is an under-utilized technique nowadays, but many readers and society as a whole are headed toward a feed me/ fullfill my need for action now mentality. It leads to writing with action for the sake of action, even if it doesn't add to the story.

Little Anonymous Me · Jul 24, 2012

BKeen said:
It leads to writing with action for the sake of action, even if it doesn't add to the story.

And that is an entirely different nightmare. Moral of the story: pace of plot must be neither too fast nor too slow, but just right. :tongue

Pyrohawk · Jul 24, 2012

Something I struggle with is that I don't really "want" the plot to get going. I write for the same reason I read, which is just escapism for the most part. To me, the best part of most novels is the stuff in the middle. I'm a big fan if "slice of life" sort of stuff, especially if that life is exciting or interesting.

I'd have been happy to read Harry Potter if he was just a normal wizard in Hogwarts and the whole grand chosen one, death eater, voldemort stuff never happened. In LotR, the fellowship could have wandered forever and just had fun adventures and seen cool things and I would have been fine. I'm the sort of person who plays video games, but has more fun running around messing with stuff and exploring than I ever do following the plot.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good plot and a finale is always great. But I'm satisfied to read characters I like wander through a world I like for hundreds of pages..... but I know that's not how most readers are. I've never read a book I considered too long.

I eventually have to kind of drag myself back to the plot and say, OK, ok....let's make something happen....where did I stick that darn antagonist? Wait....the antagonist has died of old age by now? Oh well, back to exploring!

BKeen · Jul 25, 2012

Pyrohawk said:
Something I struggle with is that I don't really "want" the plot to get going. I write for the same reason I read, which is just escapism for the most part. To me, the best part of most novels is the stuff in the middle. I'm a big fan if "slice of life" sort of stuff, especially if that life is exciting or interesting.

I'd have been happy to read Harry Potter if he was just a normal wizard in Hogwarts and the whole grand chosen one, death eater, voldemort stuff never happened. In LotR, the fellowship could have wandered forever and just had fun adventures and seen cool things and I would have been fine. I'm the sort of person who plays video games, but has more fun running around messing with stuff and exploring than I ever do following the plot.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good plot and a finale is always great. But I'm satisfied to read characters I like wander through a world I like for hundreds of pages..... but I know that's not how most readers are. I've never read a book I considered too long.

I eventually have to kind of drag myself back to the plot and say, OK, ok....let's make something happen....where did I stick that darn antagonist? Wait....the antagonist has died of old age by now? Oh well, back to exploring!

I think you're touching on something very interesting here- the video game reference. Many readers of SF/Fantasy are also frequently the same audience a video game (especially the action/RPG market) will try to reach. The trend in gaming is toward a "sandbox" style approach where the main plotline is there but so many players go for an all encompassing experience where they travel down every possible avenue they can prior to advancing in the game. I realize this approach to a work of literature would have to be tweaked a bit in order to retain interest, but the trend is interesting regardless.

scribbledoutname · Jul 25, 2012

Interesting

Pyrohawk said:
Something I struggle with is that I don't really "want" the plot to get going. I write for the same reason I read, which is just escapism for the most part. To me, the best part of most novels is the stuff in the middle. I'm a big fan if "slice of life" sort of stuff, especially if that life is exciting or interesting.

I'd have been happy to read Harry Potter if he was just a normal wizard in Hogwarts and the whole grand chosen one, death eater, voldemort stuff never happened.

I'm exactly like this! Well, almost -- not so much slice-of-life as in exploring as many interesting possibilites as possible xD This is the reason why I'm struggling with this issue to begin with. I just want to tell a story full of fun bits that people can get lost in, so that you can enjoy the world and the characters, but it has to be attached to a clear spine (plot) and everything needs context, or some sort of direction, so that the story can progress. People also say it should have a theme, etc.

I do keep up a feeling of progression -- without it the story seems like its going nowhere -- but I prefer to deviate a little to explore things that are enjoyable to read without strictly being necessary for the plot... the kind of stuff you often wish had happened when you finish reading a book, or wish you got to see more of.

It's striking a balance between that progression and the experience that's hard, because I know there are readers like me who enjoy what I want to do but I also know that agents are always stating (on their blogs) that they want a "tightly plotted" story, one with all "extranous details" cut, which "begins as late as possible", and so on, and this advice all goes against what I want to do. I think it's because I care more about giving readers a fun experience overall than just telling my readers what this specific character happens to be trying to do, and doing it with as little deviation as possible.

It makes me a bit nervous when I'm just doing my own thing. I know I'd totally enjoy it if I read it myself, but it's so risky... you can't tell if an agent will actually like it or see it as amateur writing, even if you intended/consciously chose for it to be that way!

How do fantasy agents approach the MSes they read?

scribbledoutname

Nobody said I couldn't.

CatchingADragon

dragon seeker

Polenth

Mushroom

buz

edits all posts at least four times

Buffysquirrel

Katrina S. Forest

scribbledoutname

Nobody said I couldn't.

Pyrohawk

Aspiring author

CatchingADragon

dragon seeker

Parataxis

Obsessive Plotting Disorder

Little Anonymous Me

BKeen

BKeen

Little Anonymous Me

BKeen

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Little Anonymous Me

BKeen

Little Anonymous Me

Pyrohawk

Aspiring author

BKeen

scribbledoutname

Nobody said I couldn't.