White Writers: "Can I Write this?"

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Roly

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I find that a lot of diversity conversations end up with a lot of white writers wondering whether or not they can write about people of colour, or write about other cultures, or use other cultures to infuse their stories. It is often about white writers trying to figure out how to write diversity, how to incorporate multiculturalism and what is or isn't okay to do. The question often boils down to: "Am I allowed to write another ethnicity?"

My friend has written a great post addressing this issue. Thankfully, it's a little different than the answer you usually get in more mainstream discussions of diversity:

http://silver-goggles.blogspot.ca/2012/07/on-permission-and-white-writers.html
 

Katrina S. Forest

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I laughed at the opening to that post. But there's part of it that I don't quite understand:

I would raise my eyebrow at any talk of writing as an “enriching experience”. Isn’t economic dominance and touristic neocolonialism enough to enrich your lives?

I don't think the word "enriching" is automatically a cause to give writers a critical look.

Let's say Bob the writer, for whatever reason, has an idea for a character from a culture he is unfamiliar with. So he tries to learn more about that culture. He realizes he's spent his whole life making assumptions that were totally wrong. Maybe he grows close enough to the culture to write an authentic story. Maybe the story dies out. But either way, he's a lot more respectful of that culture than he was before. Wouldn't "enriching" be an accurate word for what happened to his life?

Now, on the other hand, if Bob just made up whatever sounded right to him and called that an enriching experience, then yes, I agree that Bob is making himself look clueless at best.

But unless writers elaborate on what they mean, is it really fair to assume which version of Bob they're acting like?
 

lorna_w

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Hmm on the post you linked, there's a lot I disagree with in there.

As a member of at least two oppressed groups, I don't mind members of dominant groups writing about my people, as long as they have empathy and eschew stereotype. (They don't always.) There's no one "it" to get right, as human experience can vary tremendously. There is no single "gay experience" or "black experience" or "white experience" or "farmer experience."

I used to be terrified about writing even male POV, but I've grown up and gotten over it. Since I don't write a lot about adjusting the junk but stick to feelings and perceptions and actions, I figure I'm getting it right, for we're all human beings and I know how to be one of those. True, I still do wish I could find a black woman who did obedience or agility trials with her dog, for I have one in this next novel, and don't want to miss an opportunity or great detail, but I've listened enough to black friends talking about being the only black in a sea of white faces that I can write that--even though that won't be but two sentences of what I say about her because she'll be busy trying to get things done at first and survive serious danger by page 80 or so, and I'll bet you we don't think much about our status as historically oppressed people when we're struggling to keep our noses out of the tsunami. The issue of finding a good hairstylist for a black woman in a white town is not, for instance, going to come up for her. She won't be shopping, so she won't get that thing where, though she's dressed twice as nicely as all the whites around her, it is she who is asked for three forms of ID to use her own credit card. She'll be doing what the novel events, and her own personality type, make her do.

If we limit ourselves by not writing gay/straight whatever ethnicity, male/female/something else, Alpha Centaurian or monk, because we aren't that thing ourselves, not only does our writing suffer, but we may exclude readers we don't want to exclude. If we bow out of writing about other types of people than precisely what we are, we also can't possibly write about a future where none of this shit that shouldn't matter actually doesn't matter.

This assumes we've had friends of various types, I suppose, have listened to them, have read widely, have a dollop of empathy in our bones, and aren't total asshats. But assuming I'm not those things merely because of my skin color, sex, sexual preference, age, body size, socioeconomic status is rude and wrong.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I stopped reading pretty quickly. I was looking for a serious discussion and didn't feel like wading through someone's idea of humor, or whatever that was.

As far as the question: can white writers write About PoC...


I wasn't aware there was any question or debate about it. Of course they can. Just as any writer can write outside their genetic make-up. Men can write about women. Women can write about men. Germans can write about Salvadorans. Salvadorans can write about Japanese. Japanese can write about Inuits. Inuits can write about Kenyans. Kenyans can write about Germans.


There are no limitations.
 

shadowwalker

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It always seems as if white writers are stuck between a rock and a hard place - either we're chastised for not including PoC, or we're chastised because we get it wrong. So I just write the character sans descriptions and let the reader see them however they wish.
 

aruna

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I wasn't aware there was any question or debate about it. Of course they can. Just as any writer can write outside their genetic make-up. Men can write about women. Women can write about men. Germans can write about Salvadorans. Salvadorans can write about Japanese. Japanese can write about Inuits. Inuits can write about Kenyans. Kenyans can write about Germans.


There are no limitations.

The only limitations are those that which we place on ourselves...

I don't see it quite as simply as this. I can only speak for myself, but I don't even want to try writing main characters from cultures I don't know intimitaly -- that means, not just having a few friends from that culture, but having been properly exposed, infiltrated, lived moved and had my being with such people. Reading about them in books or seeingthem in movies is an alternative, but still a poor one. And I don't believe a North American, for instance, can write a Guyanese character in a main role without having actually lived in that country, and vice versa -- though vice versa is easier, because we tend to absorb American culture from books and films.
I know I felt very uncomfortable when my publisher wanted me to continue writing books about Indians -- not having grown up in that culture, I felt I had reached my natural limit after three India novels.
 

aruna

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It always seems as if white writers are stuck between a rock and a hard place - either we're chastised for not including PoC, or we're chastised because we get it wrong. So I just write the character sans descriptions and let the reader see them however they wish.

I wouldn't chastise any white person for writing POC if the character felt truly authentic, and not just stuck in there for the sake of diversity.
 

Kitty Pryde

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It always seems as if white writers are stuck between a rock and a hard place - either we're chastised for not including PoC, or we're chastised because we get it wrong. So I just write the character sans descriptions and let the reader see them however they wish.

The reader sees them as white. Straight up. It's called the unmarked state. For a reader in US, UK, Canada, Western Europe, an unspecified character will be viewed as white. So you're really not doing anything but business as usual there.
 

writeaway

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I never understand questions like this.

Of course, they can. Especially, in a free countries. Then the question simply becomes "was it good?" and then the answers to that question become universal to all writing. Talent, authenticity etc...

I also never understand it because it's as if white writers haven't been writing about us and profiting for years.

Lastly, I always say in response 'If you have to ask, no.'
 

Kitty Pryde

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It's not "Can I write it?" it's "Can I write it without pissing heaps of people off because I've done it so offensively?" and the answer is, "Maybe."

That post had some interesting ideas but overall I didn't take much from it. There wasn't much in the way of applicable advice. I found Writing The Other (a really awesome little book) to take a much more useful approach to the topic. Their answer to the question is "Yes, if you are mindful and knowledgeable enough." That book addresses the subject of writing any underrepresented minority, not just a person from colonizer culture writing about the colonized culture. And I highly recommend it for anyone interested in the subject!
 

shadowwalker

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I wouldn't chastise any white person for writing POC if the character felt truly authentic, and not just stuck in there for the sake of diversity.

So you're really not doing anything but business as usual there.

Just to clarify - I don't put in descriptions because most of the time, they're not important to the story. So, if I toss in a PoC for the sake of diversity, I'm messing up - but if I don't include PoC then it's just 'business as usual' and that sounds like I'm messing up. But I guarantee, if I put in a character based on some of the PoC I know personally, I'd get in trouble for that, too - either because they were too "white" or because they were "stereotypes". It all depends on who's reading it.

So, yeah, business as usual or not, I'm not putting anything in that isn't important to the story.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I don't see it quite as simply as this. I can only speak for myself, but I don't even want to try writing main characters from cultures I don't know intimitaly -- that means, not just having a few friends from that culture, but having been properly exposed, infiltrated, lived moved and had my being with such people.
I guess then the only limitation is what the writer places upon themselves or feels comfortable with.

So, yeah, business as usual or not, I'm not putting anything in that isn't important to the story.
But unless you're deliberately trying to show a world or community that only has one race or one culture in it, diversity IS important to the story simply because it exists in real life.
 
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aruna

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I think it's more than subjectively "feeling comfortable", Shadow. It's really, "can you?" "do you know these people well enough?" And it's not just about being white or black -- it's about really knowing how a specific people think and feel and react. I'm black and live in a white country, Germany, and feel comfortable writing about them. But I belong to a forum of English speaking ex-pats who live in Germany; mostly white Americans and Brits. You'd be tickled at the thread subjects: all about how Germans react to this and that; the German attitiude to trash and nudity and traffic lights and all kinds of trivial stuff, some of it quite funny. And these white ex=pats feel quite flumioxed and cofused anr irritated sometimes. It's all very well to say "I am comfortable about writing a German character." But do you really know?

We do have real, objective, limitations, not just the ones we put on ourselves, and we should be aware of them. I don't believe in "you can do whatever you want". Well, you can; but can you do it well?
 

shadowwalker

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But unless you're deliberately trying to show a world or community that only has one race or one culture in it, diversity IS important to the story simply because it exists in real life.

I'm writing about some characters who do some stuff, and they would do that stuff regardless of what race they were. There are a lot of things that exist in real life that I'm not going to include in my writing. I'm out to entertain people. That's all. How people see the characters in their own minds is up to them.
 

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Just to clarify - I don't put in descriptions because most of the time, they're not important to the story. So, if I toss in a PoC for the sake of diversity, I'm messing up - but if I don't include PoC then it's just 'business as usual' and that sounds like I'm messing up. But I guarantee, if I put in a character based on some of the PoC I know personally, I'd get in trouble for that, too - either because they were too "white" or because they were "stereotypes". It all depends on who's reading it.

So, yeah, business as usual or not, I'm not putting anything in that isn't important to the story.
The default is white male. I tested this once.

So I wrote a short bit with a guy talking about this magical object and the female reader assumed right off from the talk that (though there were no pronouns referring to the characters) the characters were both male.

Default is therefore white male. (Christian)

Now you're trying to say, "Well that's just downright stupid." It is. That's the point. The whole culture is stupid to think this and default it this way. But it just BE that way. The culture programmed people to think in this fashion, so by outing POCs and whites equally in the story as being so, you could fight it.

Case studies: Last Airbender on racebending. The leading character on the cartoon is "Aang." It was made into a movie. The director is Indian. The name Aang is clearly Sanskrit. The kid is a poster child for being a Buddhist Monk. Who did they cast? A white kid. (I kind of want to take the director and yell at him, you're putting down your own culture you bastard!!)

Case study: They made Hunger Games character of color like in the book. Despite the book repeatedly stating the character was of color white people were outraged, OMG, how can you make her black. You mean the part where the book said she was black? They'd defaulted the character to white.

Is it stupid? Yes. Is it wrong? yes. But this is what you're facing. Systemic racism.

I put in descriptions in the stories because it gives a picture. Like a setting gets a description. A character I give a rough description. Also the name often defaults characters (though some readers are just that stubborn and want "Akira" to be not Japanese. (See Racebending on the movie project).

The question is fair representation of the diversity in your population. Humans have been traveling around back before they were considered human (See Homo Erectus. They spread throughout Asia. Also summarized as the "Out of Africa" v. "Multiregional hypothesis" problem). Which means that populations without fancy things like planes and huge boats have been traveling great distances--there have been populations moving, the Romani were originally Indian (Indo-European which means you have three migrations in there--Africa, Europe to Asia, and Asia to Europe).

So the argument that Europeans in Medieval times would never have heard of anyone of color is kinda dumb. You had people of color in Rome, but it wasn't made a big deal of as class was. There are large bits of variety in populations, such as white people in Asia (There is this HUGE country in Asia called Russia... also the Tocharians, Ainu, etc.)

So when people ask for diversity, they are asking for fair representation of human populations in order to be realistic.

Now, about including PoCs and doing it right... you have to ask if your society cares about it and what stereotypes you are holding onto and be willing to adapt and apologize at the drop of a hat. Also eat lots and lots of humble pie. But being at the top rung, it ain't so easy to swallow humble pie. I understand there is a great sense of resentment at doing so and just wanting to give it all up. It makes you wonder why you are writing PoCs or in a country/culture not your own. What deep conviction and so on. That's good.

Let's be straight up. I'm Korean Adopted to a Jewish family writing about Kushana people (India for the history-challenged), Koreans, Japanese and Chinese. In it I also mention Greek, Romans, Bactrians and Persians (I think it's Persians.) As well as some other Asian groups... It's a pain in my backside to have so many groups. I don't expect the reader to keep track of it, but I still want to represent all groups mentioned fairly within the context of the story even if the research will be longer. It gives the reader a fairer representation of the period.

Still, I have a bunch of cultures I do not know on my hands and I'm super nervous. When I started, I checked with my friend from India and promised her the following:
1. I would not use her as the sole source of how to be Indian.
2. I would be humble and please smack me if I get out of line or ask too many questions. I repeated this a few times.
3. I would check with other people who were Indian as well.
4. If I get annoying, she can tell me to stop.
5. Let a group of Indians read the results.

I also checked against Chinese and Japanese, looked up stereotypes within and from outside the countries, checked on the literature, movies, and media representation within their country and within our own country. I read everything I could historically and sorted out the information. Since I'm an insider and outsider to Korea, I also triple checked my stuff against that. Still after all of that I'm willing to say I ef-ed up. To apologize and say, "Yup, I really screwed that up."

I rather write about a diverse group of people, f it up and eat humble pie and say sorry, I won't do it again that stick to safe and write about only white Christian people. My reason is that it gets tiring to write about the same group over and over again when the world is so rich with a variety of peoples cultures, individuals, fauna, flora temperatures and climates. I think the diversity is cool in the broader and smaller strokes. I want to write about HUMAN experience. Not just white Christian experience. So in order to do that, I am very willing to eat humble pie. I'm willing to get it wrong and be slapped for it. I won't make excuses and say "Well some PoC should have corrected me." I'll fight stereotypes and examine them in order to do that. I'll write women as leads, people with disabilities, people who are of color, people who are QUILTBAG, different religions, people with rich family backgrounds and so on in order to do that. Because I don't want to limit the kind of story I can write, and I don't want to live a lifetime of having it wrong in my head either.

From writing about India and willing to get it wrong, I learned a whole, whole lot. The picture of India in my head has been corrected by a lot of degrees. I'm grateful for that. Because learning one more culture and the diversity in it means I can see humanity better and the act of writing is often the act of understanding what makes us human. (I should note I scrapped it at least three or four times from getting it wrong. Even my friend didn't know some of the stuff I dug up...)

If someone tells me if and when my book gets published that I'm all wrong, I'll eat my humble pie and swear to do a better and fairer representation next time and try that much harder. That's how it goes.
 
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Shadow_Ferret

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I guess then, by that logic, I should only write about white Lutheran men who have only attended college, but didn't finish, and who spent 7 years in the Navy, and worked in the desktop publishing field, the technical writing field, and who are now presently working as secretaries in a Federal agency because I don't understand anyone else -- female, PoC, or anyone who has worked as a mechanic or banker or what have you.

I might as well quit then.
 

Kitty Pryde

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I'm writing about some characters who do some stuff, and they would do that stuff regardless of what race they were. There are a lot of things that exist in real life that I'm not going to include in my writing. I'm out to entertain people. That's all. How people see the characters in their own minds is up to them.

Culture exists. Race, background, origin, present location all play into a given character's culture, how they view the world, beliefs they hold, how others treat them, how they treat others, what they are and aren't allowed to do, what is accepted and what is taboo--we can't write without these things. Even if you are writing about Joe Average American, who is that? There's not a General American Person Is it Joe Ramirez of Bakersfield, CA, the first member of his family to finish high school, the only one fluent in English, who has to work 60 hours a week at the family restaurant? Is it Joe Wilson of Boringville, Iowa, the only kid of Indian descent in his county, raised by white parents and conflicted about identity? Is it Joe Marino of the Bronx, who everyone thinks is in the mob but really he works at Foot Locker and takes care of his old Italian granny?

Any one of these Joes could jump in and be the hero of any number of novels, and they wouldn't behave the same way or think the same things, because of who they are.

Characters don't exist without culture. White middle class American (or Brit) culture is not characterized by an absence of culture or an absence of unusual traditions. It is itself a culture. Characters don't exist in a vacuum.
 

shadowwalker

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No, characters don't exist in a vacuum. And I'll give them whatever background history is needed to explain why they act and speak and do the things they do. But if that background history is something that could have happened to white Christian Jew black Indian atheist gay Arab straight person - then I guess that's just the way the ball bounces.

I repeat - I'm trying to entertain. I'm not trying to teach multi-culturalism or whatever the heck it's called these days. If readers will see my characters as white Christian (why Christian I don't know but whatever), then I guess that's just how they'll see them. I'm writing fiction, not a social studies lesson.
 

Kitty Pryde

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No, characters don't exist in a vacuum. And I'll give them whatever background history is needed to explain why they act and speak and do the things they do. But if that background history is something that could have happened to white Christian Jew black Indian atheist gay Arab straight person - then I guess that's just the way the ball bounces.

I repeat - I'm trying to entertain. I'm not trying to teach multi-culturalism or whatever the heck it's called these days. If readers will see my characters as white Christian (why Christian I don't know but whatever), then I guess that's just how they'll see them. I'm writing fiction, not a social studies lesson.

Realistic depiction of the diversity present in most parts of the country isn't a "social studies lesson", it's the world as it is. There are hundreds of books about people of color that are intended to entertain, not teach. No one is required to include a diversity of characters in their fiction, but this IS a thread about how white writers can best do so, and I'm not sure what you are trying to say other than you are fine with refusing to do so at all.

You say who the character is is up to the reader, but it is demonstrably not. Thats just not how people work. Google "the unmarked state". That's what you're writing, by your own description. It is valid and reasonable and fine to write about straight white Christian middle class Americans, and most American writers do, but in this thread we are talking about writing other sorts of characters, specifically PoC.
 

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No, characters don't exist in a vacuum. And I'll give them whatever background history is needed to explain why they act and speak and do the things they do. But if that background history is something that could have happened to white Christian Jew black Indian atheist gay Arab straight person - then I guess that's just the way the ball bounces.

I repeat - I'm trying to entertain. I'm not trying to teach multi-culturalism or whatever the heck it's called these days. If readers will see my characters as white Christian (why Christian I don't know but whatever), then I guess that's just how they'll see them. I'm writing fiction, not a social studies lesson.

Wow. Can't even put into words how wrong that sounds. It sounds like your offended that multiculturalism 'or whatever the heck it's called these days exists. I don't understand why you're so offended by the fact to be frank.

God forbid that people of all different cultures and creeds might want to see themselves represented in literature and might want to fight the default white male.

Colourblindness hurts people.
 

shadowwalker

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Realistic depiction of the diversity present in most parts of the country isn't a "social studies lesson", it's the world as it is. There are hundreds of books about people of color that are intended to entertain, not teach. No one is required to include a diversity of characters in their fiction, but this IS a thread about how white writers can best do so, and I'm not sure what you are trying to say other than you are fine with refusing to do so at all.

The main question, I believe, was whites wondering if they're allowed to write other ethnicities. And I commented originally that whites are criticized regardless of whether they do or don't. I do not "refuse" to include diversity - I simply don't mention it at all because it's not important to my story. If it were, I would.

It is valid and reasonable and fine to write about straight white Christian middle class Americans, and most American writers do, but in this thread we are talking about writing other sorts of characters, specifically PoC.

I'm not writing about straight white Christian middle class Americans - well, okay, I'm usually writing about Americans. I'm writing about people who do stuff.

Wow. Can't even put into words how wrong that sounds. It sounds like your offended that multiculturalism 'or whatever the heck it's called these days exists. I don't understand why you're so offended by the fact to be frank.

I'm not offended by it at all. In fact, if you knew anything about me, you'd know that - well, no, won't go down that road either because I know where it leads.

God forbid that people of all different cultures and creeds might want to see themselves represented in literature and might want to fight the default white male.

Colourblindness hurts people.

God forbid that writers be allowed to write without worrying about who they're not representing or who they might offend because they didn't include someone in their writing. I suppose I should feel really guilty because I'm not writing female characters either. Then again, if I was that worried about seeing female characters, I'd write them.
 

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The main question, I believe, was whites wondering if they're allowed to write other ethnicities. And I commented originally that whites are criticized regardless of whether they do or don't. I do not "refuse" to include diversity - I simply don't mention it at all because it's not important to my story. If it were, I would.

I'm not writing about straight white Christian middle class Americans - well, okay, I'm usually writing about Americans. I'm writing about people who do stuff.

I'm not offended by it at all. In fact, if you knew anything about me, you'd know that - well, no, won't go down that road either because I know where it leads.



God forbid that writers be allowed to write without worrying about who they're not representing or who they might offend because they didn't include someone in their writing. I suppose I should feel really guilty because I'm not writing female characters either. Then again, if I was that worried about seeing female characters, I'd write them.

Ok. You may not intentionally be, but you are writing about white people. Please do read this. It's about reader psychology. A 'blank' character is a white straight character. Your intention matters not at all. The fact is that nobody reads a story of an unmarked character and sees them as anything else.

And again, no one is chastising the writers of stories about white people. You dont need to make realstic diversity your goal. If you dont want to worry about giving offense you can feel free. BUT this thread is not about that.

A small word here about what they expect. There’s a term in literary theory for the ways in which a typical reader reads character - and by typical here, I mean typical in the Western-European First World. The term is ‘the unmarked state’ and it works like this: Say I read you a sentence about a character who is washed away in a river ravaged by storm, swims to the other side and climbs out, surviving by the skin of their teeth and strength of their will and body. Not so exciting or interesting a sentence, perhaps. What is interesting is that, unless told otherwise, the majority of readers will assume that the character fits the following description: white, male, 30-40 years old, middle class, employed, able-bodied. There are complex and place and time-dependent reasons for this: test it in a remote indigenous school, for example, and you might get quite a different reading of the invisible markers of the character. Even more interesting, especially for a writer like you, is the notion that most readers will hold onto this image of the character for a whole book if you don’t tell them otherwise.

From http://perilousadventures.net/0809/nonexistence.html by NA Bourke
 

EarlyBird

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I certainly hope that white writers can write non-white characters because my WIP does just that.

My own life is filled with diversity...most of our friends are non-white (AA, Jamaican, Panamanian, Mexican, Cambodian, Korean, Haitian, Indonesian...hope I haven't left anyone out) and my children are Chinese and Vietnamese, and extended family are AA and Indonesian, so I feel very comfortable representing various races in my work.

I wish there were more diversity in novels. If it makes real life more interesting and rich, why not fiction?
 
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