Sub-genre question

Status
Not open for further replies.

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
So, What do you Write?

Horror?

*Laughs* No, this isn't horror. I mean, it's suspenseful, and tense. It's even scary in places, but not--horror. Not the kind I know. Really, what is it?

Well--Supernatural?

No--That's ghosts, goblins, spooky shadows in the dark. Try again.

Umm, How about Occult fiction?

Well--There's witchcraft--but that's just a part of the story, it's not the story. It's not what the story is about.

*Scratches head* Well, it's about vampires. The main characters are vampires. Vampire fiction?

Is there such a thing?

I think so.

I...I don't know. Perhaps Paranormal.

Isn't Paranormal everything we just discussed?

Everything that's not horror.

But--everything we just said--is horror.

But it doesn't have to be--horrific.

Huh?

What?

Sooo?

Sooo? What do you write?

My question to you--If you're writing about vampires--but you're not necessarily writing to terrify the reader--Are you technically a horror writer, a vampire writer, a writer of the supernatural---
shocked.gif
. Any thoughts on this topic would be appreciated!

Cindy B
(cross-posted on the HWA board)
 

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee
Staff member
Boss Mare
Administrator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
22,010
Reaction score
10,707
Location
Out on a limb
Website
macallisterstone.com
Hmm--I think you're writing vampire fiction. It's very nearly become its own genre. I dearly hope you're writing terrific vampfic, too, since there's so much already out there. :DDark fantasy, maybe? What did they tell you over on the HWA board?
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
Well, there are a couple of other questions to ask here:


1. What is the GOAL of the book? Is it a suspense novel where all of the characters just happen to be vampires?

2. Is it a suspense novel where a human is trying to eliminate the vampires (or co-exist with them?)

3. Is it set on this earth during this time period?

4. Is there a romance between a vampire and a human, or two vampires?

5. Do humans or vampires die in the book? Is the death "on-screen", (i.e., the reader watches it happen) or just hinted at?

6. What is the RESOLUTION of the book? Do the good guys win, or the bad guys?

There are about four different genres that "vampire fiction" can be sold to, so if you give me some more details, I can steer you to a publisher/magazine. :)
 

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
1. What is the GOAL of the book?

Simply put--to save the humans from demon domination--it's a bit more complicated than that--but lets not get into it--lol!

Is it a suspense novel where all of the characters just happen to be vampires?
Pretty much yes--I could write it with a bunch of humans, but what fun would that be when you've had an obsession with vampires all your life(not an unhealthy drinking blood obsession, just a reading book, watching movies writing stories obsession----).

2. Is it a suspense novel where a human is trying to eliminate the vampires (or co-exist with them?) It's not a human against vampire story, but it's not a all the humans in the world know that vampire's exist story either. Their are humans in the story who know about the vampires, and there are innocent humans who are there for the story. It's pretty much the evil vampires and the not-so bad vampires who are trying to save the world(it's not as corny as it sounds--really).

3. Is it set on this earth during this time period? Yes--more or less this time period(give or take a year or two--depending when it gets published!!)

4. Is there a romance between a vampire and a human, or two vampires? There are romance factors but its not THE story, more like sub-plots

5. Do humans or vampires die in the book? Is the death "on-screen", (i.e., the reader watches it happen) or just hinted at? of course, and on-screen. and there's torture--I'd say it's for 17 or older at least!

6. What is the RESOLUTION of the book? Do the good guys win, or the bad guys? Errr...well, yes and no--because it's meant to continue in another book....so there's a win--but it's not completely over.

Any other thoughts appreciated.

Thank you for making me think :)

Cindy
 

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
MacAllister said:
What did they tell you over on the HWA board?

The closest to a reply I've gotten so far is: Paranormal Suspense, which is something I think I can maybe live with. Actually, the reason I'm asking is so I know what to title myself on my website. I don't feel it's really horror, so I don't want to call myself a straight-up horror writer...Blah :p
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
LOL! Well, unfortunately, you probably can't find a publisher who specifically publishes "paranormal suspense," so we have to work within the guidelines that exist. Here are your options:


1. Dark Fantasy/Horror. These are interchangable as far as the publisher and bookstores are concerned. If the good guys win (at least briefly), then it's probably dark fantasy. These books are shelved in Horror (think Laurell Hamilton for dark fantasy)

2. Science Fiction/Fantasy. Most of the non-romance-specific fantasy titles that are set on this earth fall into what is known as "contemporary alternate reality." "Contemporary" means it's set today. "Alternate Reality" means "but not today as we know it." Think Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series, which is set in today's Chicago. Most people don't KNOW magic exists, but it does. There are werewolves, and vampires, fairies and demons. These are shelved in SF/Fantasy in the bookstore.

If you tell a publisher you have a book that would be suited for either dark fantasy or contemporary alternate reality, it'll get to the right editor.

As for your website, you can put something like "Author of Alternate Realities. It's today, but not as you've ever seen it!"

Does that help?
 
Last edited:

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
I have a question--From my understanding(mostly from what I read on the Horror Writers Association Site and a book about Writing Horror), Vampire's don't fall under Dark Fantasy, so I assumed that I couldn't submit to that market. Is that inaccurate? I do have the magical element in my stories--it plays a big part in the history of the vampire creation and such.
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
:Wha: Boy, I've never heard THAT! Laurell is a member of HWA, and HER books are dark fantasy (or at least that's what the publisher markets them as!) I know, because I looked when trying to find a home for our vampire series that's similar to hers -- the one that's pictured to the left. (We wound up increasing the romance to publish it with Tor's paranormal romance line, but second in queue was dark fantasy.)
 

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
Perhaps I inturpretted it wrong--I'll have to go check it out again.(and I think I spelt that wrong...). Thanks for the information. I know the book said vampires didn't fall under the catagory, but I could be remembering the website wrong. I'll look again.

Not that books are always right...:p
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
Let me amend the above without editing it to death. See, what's happening here is that a lot of people use strict interpretations of the genres. So, let's look at those strict guidelines. I wrote these up on a lecture about the sub-genre of romance, but it's equally instructive as to the main categories.

Paranormal - Ah, paranormal. The darling of the current market. No other category is so confusingly grouped into one lump. There are any number of sub-subgenres of paranormal, so take a deep breath and let’s go through them:

Futuristic: A futuristic novel is one that is from 2006-infinity, but is EARTH-BASED! This means that you are using humans as they exist on Earth that may or may not interact with other species that have yet to be discovered, or dealing with a world very different than what we know know (whether from natural catastrophe, alien invasion, world politics, etc., etc.) The future world must have rationale that is understandable. For example, humans don't have green blood. They will probably NEVER have green blood, so don't try it. But Vulcans (Star Trek) DO have green blood, so that's okay. Star Trek is a tricky one, because it IS science-fiction, and it IS futuristic, and big chunks of it ARE fantasy. It's generally considered science-fiction, for the record.

Fantasy: The biggest issue with the fantasy sub-genre is the concept of "world-building." Fantasy novels come in two breeds: One is a different world, with creatures that don't exist on earth, that may or may not talk, etc. The other fantasy is "alternate reality." An alternate reality is one which follows Earth history except for one or two things. The Laurell K. Hamilton, Anita Blake world, for example is a good example. Vampires have always existed. But they were hunted like rats -- UNTIL the United States Supreme Court declared them "not dead". Suddenly, vampires could own property, adopt children (since they couldn't bear them on their own), marry, divorce, etc. Probates for "dead" relatives were unwound and life generally was upended. The key to a fantasy romance is making the fantastical elements an equal partner to the regular ones. So the guy is a vampire -- some are jerks and some are sweeties. It's an ELEMENT of the personality, but they don't have to fall into "set" requirements, because it's NOT REAL, so it doesn't have to adhere to known legends.

Science Fiction: This is often confused with futuristic, but the goal of science fiction is the USE OF science in the story. Whether the story is set in 2005 or 3035, hard science that is well thought out is key. The Time Machine or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, would be science fiction, but not necessarily futuristic.

Time Travel: Also a close contender for futuristic. After a long and... ahem, spirited discussion among the authors in the FF&P chapter, we determined that the difference between futuristic and time travel is one key element. Susan Grant's The Scarlet Empress was the issue at hand -- should it be entered in the RITA under time travel or under futuristic. The joint decision was made that it was futuristic, because THE HEROINE COULD NOT RETURN HOME. Susan's heroine was cryogenitically frozen and awoken in 2076 to save the world from a "new world order". It was science fiction, and futuristic and was a woman from the past thrown into the future. But we finally all agreed that for time travel to be a key element in the novel, the hero or heroine must have the ABILITY to return to their time, whether or not they choose to do so. Otherwise, it's in a different category.

Paranormal: The key element of a paranormal is LEGEND. Werewolves are legend, and so are vampires, pixies, fairies, doxies, living mummies, etc. A paranormal is PARA or "resembling or imitating" NORMAL "real life". Most vampire romances fit this category. There is a handed down legend or fable or "this really happened!" account of something outside the ordinary that we don't generally believe but aren't complete convinced COULDN'T happen. While it can be set in the future, the past or the present, the key is that everything ELSE is normal, except for the addition of this one element. Now, WITHIN paranormal, there are two additional categories (so

Light Paranormal - Light paranormal deals with creatures that are magical, and that have as their "legend" that they benefit mankind generally. Angels, fairies, Gods/Goddesses, spirits/ghosts, and the like. The storylines are generally that a superior being falls in love with a human or with each other and nobody gets hurt. Think of the movie "Ghost". That's a light paranormal.

Dark Paranormal - These are the creatures of legend that subsist on blood or flesh of humans or other creatures. Vampires, werewolves, doxies, unseelie fey (darker cousins of the fairies), leprechauns, etc. As their legends, they harm people to their own benefit. These storylines deal with the dark creature overcoming their dark nature to fall in love with a human or with each other. Think of the movie "Van Helsing". That's a dark paranormal.

Now, these definitions have NOTHING to do with where the book is shelved. There are only so many places to stock the book, and the editors know this. The lines they buy for are very specific, and yet very broad. If they're buying dark fantasy books, they DON'T want science fiction. They don't want specifically horror plots (where the good guy dies/loses). But that's about it. Most everything else is lumped under a single umbrella. Now, what you want to CALL your book is up to you. You can argue definitions until the cows come home. After your book is published, you can continue to argue that it's not horror even though that's where it's shelved. You can argue it's not science fiction, even though it's right next to an Asimov title. Doesn't matter. The goal is to decide who to APPROACH with the book. Who will BUY the book, and for what line. Don't worry about the little stuff.

If you've built a world, and you have magic involved, it qualifies for fantasy. Heck, if you've built a world, and it only has vampires, it's still fine, because there's some element of magic involved in being able to turn into a bat, or dissolve into mist, etc., etc.

Make sense?
 

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
Ohhh--that makes a lot more sense! Thank you. I used to clasify it as Dark Fantasy, but the Writing Horror book by Edo Van Belkom said, no vampires in Dark Fantasy, so I thought that was the rule and that was that.

I've been writing for about four years now--and learning that nothing is concrete in this world. Truth be told, I guess I won't really know the true genre until after all the editing and such and find out what exactly my little novel grows up to be.

I appreciate the information you've given me. Thank you for the help.

Cindy B.
 

ChaosTitan

Around
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
15,463
Reaction score
2,886
Location
The not-so-distant future
Website
kellymeding.com
Cathy C said:
Futuristic
Fantasy
Science Fiction
Time Travel
Paranormal
Light Paranormal
Dark Paranormal

When people ask what sort of novels I write, I tell them either Science Fiction or Paranormal, because I'm not certain what genre or sub-genre my stories fall into. The paranormal elements that I use are all rooted in Psi-abilities (telepathy, telekinesis, pyrokinesis, clairvoyance, astral projection, etc...). Not everyone has them, but they are becoming increasingly common among the population (think X-Men, on a smaller scale, with slightly less-crazy powers). The first book is a fish-out-of-water story, with the Main Character drop-kicked into this underworld that he (and most of the world) never knew existed.

The definitions above are great, Cathy, and now I have to wonder.... Do I fit any of those sub-genres? Or am I working in a sub-genre that just hasn't been classified yet?
cool.gif
 

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
You know, I looked at his website about a half-hour ago--and he does seem like a pretty crediable source. I think I'm not going to stress over it right now. I'll just stick with Dark Fantasy, as I did for two years before I freaked out and got al PC--and since when do I do that?

I'm just too darn picky!!

lol

Thanks everyone!
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
chaostitian said:
The first book is a fish-out-of-water story, with the Main Character drop-kicked into this underworld that he (and most of the world) never knew existed.

The definitions above are great, Cathy, and now I have to wonder.... Do I fit any of those sub-genres? Or am I working in a sub-genre that just hasn't been classified yet?


Same as Twilight, chaos! You BUILT a new WORLD -- that of the underworld that he didn't know existed. It has its own history, rules that it exists by, etc., etc.

It's either fantasy or contemporary alternate reality, so you can approach any publishers with similar books. Hit Google, search for "Novel & psychic & underworld" and see what pops up (PS -- I just did, there are quite a few to explore!) Then, wander over to Amazon, see what category genre they're being marketed as and note the publisher. POOF! You have publishers to query! :)
 

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
Cathy C said:
Same as Twilight, chaos! You BUILT a new WORLD -- that of the underworld that he didn't know existed. It has its own history, rules that it exists by, etc., etc.

It's either fantasy or contemporary alternate reality, so you can approach any publishers with similar books. Hit Google, search for "Novel & psychic & underworld" and see what pops up (PS -- I just did, there are quite a few to explore!) Then, wander over to Amazon, see what category genre they're being marketed as and note the publisher. POOF! You have publishers to query! :)

I think I'm finally begining to understand. Sooo...my writing can be classfied as Dark Fantasy because--

Dark--because of vampires and the "darker" elements of the story.

Fantasy--because it is set in our world, but doesn't neccessarily take place in OUR world as we know it. There's the world where people don't know vampire's exist--well, are better off not knowing, and there's the truth, that they do exist and doing their thing--blah blah blah. and so on.

Am I on the right track?

Cindy
 
Last edited:

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
Correct, Cindy! Once you step outside of the "known" stuff in our world, you have to answer all the "whys".

How did the vampires evolve?
How do they interact with each other and with humans?
Why haven't the humans figured out vampires exist?
How do they feed without notice?

Etc., etc. This is all "world building" that turns a contemporary into a fantasy. If the vampires don't have to follow our laws of physics (they can fly, etc.) then WHY NOT? Do they have heirarchy? Can they stand sunlight?

The more you set your creation apart from the existing folklore of "vampires" the stronger you make your ties to fantasy. For example, our March release has a whole new kind of vampires. They're a sentient parasite that "infects" humans through the bloodstream. They have a psychic, hive mind with a queen (like bees). This is dark fantasy (well, actually paranormal romance since we're shelved in romance) but it will be additionally marketed in FANTASY, not horror.

:)
 

CindyB

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Location
Minnesota
Yipee! I get it! And I actually know the answer to more or less to those questions so I must be on the right track. :) Good to know. Thank you again. Since I'm 3/4 done with the first(well, millionth) draft it's kinda nice to know what to look for so I get an idea of the requirements(length and such) that publishers want--so I know if I have to come up with another thousand words and such.

I'm hoping my creation is different enough from everyone else's to be unique. You're sounds intersting and different from what I've read. Worth checking out :) Good luck.

Thank you again for the help.

Cindy
 
Status
Not open for further replies.