Confidence, modesty, realistic expectations

I think it's that balance where we want to seem confident of our work but not arrogant, so we might say things to mitigate our work. And it's probably a little self doubt that creeps in there too. It's a humbling thing to hand your novel or short story over to someone and wait for their response/critique.

Personally, I'll vacillate between being really confident and happy with something I've written one minute, and then the next minute thinking it's complete crap.

Confidence in anything is very important. It doesn't mean that it will get you published, but its' a foundation for not giving up.

If you feel you write well enough to enter a contest, then you might want to start submitting your short stories to magazines. Or, if it's a novel you wrote, then start querying it out.

Contests are fun, but they usual cost money.

Good luck.

First, you should be commended for putting your work out for review. Many developing writers have trouble doing that. I suspect the self-criticism is a way of buffering the real or possible rejection/criticism. We have to realize that we are all works-in-progress. That said, we should make sure that what we send out is our best work, and yet at the same time realize that our level of experience and knowledge of the craft may be in the apprentice or journeyman stages, with much yet to learn. The best way to avoid the self-critical stance is to always take pride in our accomplishments while fully admitting that we still (and always will) have much more to learn. This way, we can sidestep both the self-critical and arrogant extremes of our personal evaluation.

… competition in writing is fierce. There are many, hugely talented writers out there. To have hope of succeeding, one has to set their standards high and assess ones work objectively. A story may be okay by one’s own standards. If it doesn’t measure up to what’s out there, though, it’s still a piece of junk fit for the trash can and a writer shouldn’t hesitate to admit that. They shouldn’t feel badly about it. They should be inspired to do better and work harder and, above all, not to be complacent.

You can make a fine whine out of sour grapes.

I would never put down my own work, but I understand the temptation. I think we just get scared, afraid that our work - which we have sweated and cried over and think is pretty damn good - will get laughed at or lambasted.

I finally got one person to agree to read my novel. I was ecstatic for about five minutes. Then I started worrying that he'd think it was awful. It worked out OK, but it is scary.

Susan Littlefield said:

Confidence in anything is very important.

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This is true... but isn't it also true...
that the line between confidence and delusion is usually
drawn by some one else's pencil?

=)

KellyAssauer said:

This is true... but isn't it also true...
that the line between confidence and delusion is usually
drawn by some one else's pencil?

=)

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Precisely why I refuse to have confidence in my work right now. The thought of not believing in myself enough is much more palatable than the thought of not being as good as I fancy myself to be. It's not as satisfying to mock someone's shortcomings when they're acutely aware of them, right? >.>

You know, they do say that depressed people tend to have a more realistic view of the world. It's probably why they're so depressed!

Waffles said:

Maybe it's because we know the odds are slim that we keep our expectations down with "I probably won't..." But then, people who succeed at anything usually have the attitude "I totally can!", don't they?

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I don't think that's necessarily true.

Confidence is important, but it depends on the context.

If I thought something I wrote was just bad and couldn't be improved, I wouldn't waste other people's time by asking them to read it and give me a critique.

It's good to believe in your writing while you are working on it. But once you submit your writing anywhere, it's out of your hands. Just because you believe you will win a contest or get published on your first submission does not make it so.

I'm an actor, and I generally hear back from 1 out of every 10 auditions. That's actually quite good. When I go to an auditon, I don't tell anyone who is not an actor, because they always ask me, days later, if I got the part. I usually don't. Many people will audition for a role, and only one will get it. A lot of times, it's me. Other times, it's someone else. I do have a lot of confidence in my abilities, but just knowing, "there's a very strong chance I will never hear from these people again, and that's okay," is the only thing that allows me to keep trying. If I went into every audition assuming I had the part, I would just be setting myself up for disappointment.

Waffles said:

Honestly, it makes me sad when I hear/read people denigrate their own writing. (And then it makes me worry that I'm totally delusional and I really ought to be thinking I suck, too. But I get over that.)

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fair enough; everyone gets to have their own opinion, but mine, coupled with experience, says jaded cynicism is far less dangerous than rose-colored glasses and blithe overconfidence.

YMMV, but maybe those folks simply believe they write well, but hey, so do lots of other folks in the contest.

I don't denigrate my writing as a rule, but my confidence in it can vary. Sometimes I'll think a piece isn't that good at all, in which case I'm unlikely to make a point of showing it to people. Other times, I'll think something is all right, but I still know there are likely people out there who are better.

The only contests I've submitted to have been through school. They're free and the entries are judged anonymously, so I figure, what do I have to lose by submitting? I don't really expect to win, though. When I was at my community college, I think the contests were pretty small and I saw myself as a medium-sized fish in a small pond. I was a finalist a couple times. Now I'm at a big school with lots of writers, and no, I wasn't that surprised when I wasn't a finalist in the first contest I entered.

I entered my novel into a competition in March, and the same thing happened. Turns out they had 7,000 entries and only one winner. Now, I didn't think I would win for a different reason. The competition was for a women's magazine, and I didn't think that my Roman spy thriller would have been the type of book they were looking for. My motivation was that one of the judges was from Orion, who publish Christian Cameron, and it was too much of an opportunity [obviously trying to channel Christopher Paolini's route to Knopf. ]

It didn't work. But I hadn't sent any of my writing out since 2004, so at least I have succeeded get back on the submission trail. I expect to be submitting properly by autumn.

I've occasionally thrown stuff at a wall just to see if it sticks, but I've never done it with anything I've thought terrible.

I really dislike it when people do the whole "Okay, I wrote this, but it probably isn't very good, and it's only like, the first draft, and it took me like, ten minutes" because they always, without fail, then await showering praise and sulk when they don't get it. I want to make a School of Rock gif for when people do that.

The trouble is with saying something's not very good is that if I agree, I'll tell you.

Well, there are a lot of reasons a writer might denigrate their own writing. As a lot of people have already said, it might just be because it's easier to handle when your expectations are lower. It might also be because, as you mentioned, it's sort of a way of introducing the work with a "look, I'm not arrogant, I don't think I'm the new mastergod thunderballs of writing, I gave this my best shot but I'm well aware that may not be good enough yet and I'm just not experienced enough to know it" sort of preface.

It might be because, as also already mentioned, we're aware that there are tons of other writers out there who are quite good, and we might still have more to learn than those writers. Or that whatever editor/agent/committee sees those submissions might have varying tastes, or reject one and not the other for any number of reasons...etc. Statistics and stuff.

It might also be because certain people *ahemself* really really do not have that much confidence in anything they do, and though they try and try and strain to do it right, they believe in the end they probably effed it up. But there's a little nugget of hope to cling to still, and they know that their brain is apparently wired to hate everything they do, so they are genuinely unsure of whether it is crap or not, and they realize that they'll never get anywhere in life if they don't attempt SOMEthing, so they go "oh f*** it" and submit it somewhere. There's a tiny hope, but it's not much--it's just enough to force you to get over yourself and do it.

You don't think you have much of a shot, but at least it's out there. At least you're not denying yourself anything. If you're going to get denied, it's because you well and truly attempted it, not because you punched yourself in the boob and slapped it away.

Of course, to some, that might sound depressing, but...well, to some, it's a step forward.

If a person honestly feels his/her project is "not very good," that work should not be submitted for publication, for contests, or for any other competive consideration. This includes some types of constructive review/criticism. Probably the worst mind-set is to claim a story is crap with the secret expectation a review will prove the opposite. If the review confirms the original claim, it's a double hit to the writer.

Don't submit anything until you feel it is your absolute best work, and use rejections as learning experiences to raise that "my best work" bar. This is a business that benefits from lifelong learning.

Wow. I must be really jaded. I've seen far too many instances of someone showing a bit of confidence and being torn down for being so arrogant as to believe they actually had something of value to offer. So it's safer to be self-deprecating than to make themselves a target. Humility supposedly is a better virtue than confidence and they continue on that cycle.

Not that it's stopped me from having confidence in my abilities because I simply inform those who wish to tear on me to go get stuffed...

As the years of writing pile up, and we get publications and awards, I think for most of us our self-assessment becomes more accurate. Self-denigration and arrogance generally fade away. (Though in my culture, for interesting historical reasons, it's considered "polite" to continue to be falsely modest in public.) Arrogance that persists is the sign of personality disorders far more serious than the occasional inadvertent tell, not show moment in one's prose. Usually, though, one realizes at some point that one is "competent" and that this is no small feat; competence in fiction takes many years to earn.

There's no need to feel bad for anyone (except maybe for the judges of the contest who have to wade through entries novice writers knew were bad and sent anyway). Feel your own feelings; learn to observe those of others with sympathetic detachment and a writer's note-taking curiosity.

Oft linked here is the Ira Glass interview in which he talks about getting good enough to know you're not that good, also relevant.

NeuroFizz said:

If a person honestly feels his/her project is "not very good," that work should not be submitted for publication, for contests, or for any other competive consideration.

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I don't know...I've had more success with the stuff I thought was OK, you know, not great, not terrible, than with stuff I really thought was good/my best.

I have come to the conclusion I am not the best judge of my own writing, so when I say 'I don't know if it's any good' that's where I'm coming from. I hope it is, but maybe I'm wrong....

Love this thread. There's always that balance between confidence and fear that I think we tread every time we pick up a pen.

One of the first fiction pieces I ever had critiqued, was in a college writing class. I don't recall the story, but I think it had a sad-eyed cat in it. Anyway, I handed it in with a confidence bordering on cockiness. What I got back was a blistering appraisal of my talent. There was so much red ink over every inch of the paper that for a moment, I was afraid the professor had sacrificed a goat on it.

Waffles said:

I don't think not winning one contest makes my writing junk fit for the trash and if that makes me complacent (or worse) in your eyes...sorry? I don't really know how to take your comments.

I think having confidence in one's overall ability isn't the same as being unwilling to admit that the work isn't good enough. I believe that if it's not good enough yet, I have the ability to make it better.

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... “overall ability” isn’t something I’ve ever put much stock in. It’s like unactualized potential, which doesn’t amount to much. Lots of people may have the ability to write a great novel. There are millions who go about with such a belief in one form or another. Few carry through. So imo it’s better to work with what one has or to keep things in the immediate present. You’re as good as your most recent story.

With winning or losing a contest, that’s not the important thing. Giving it your very best effort is. And just because you don’t win doesn’t mean you don’t have a great story. Opinions vary and can be as subjective as ones own. In the long run though publication is a good measure. Editors are as close to experts as you’re going to get when it comes to evaluation.

Waffles said:

Are we really not supposed to think we have any talent? How do people get published if they never think they are good enough to get published?

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We don't. Life is a crap-shoot, and the best we can do is keep moving forward.

In the real world I am a chef. A pretty good one. How do I know that? I know it when one of my customers come up to me and say, 'that was lovely, I really enjoyed that' or 'that was the best lasagne I've ever eaten, what's the receipe?'

I don't think there is any other way to gage 'good enough.'

Waffles said:

I'm just not convinced it's proof that my writing is garbage, either.

I'm starting to feel quite foolish for starting this thread. Are we really not supposed to think we have any talent? How do people get published if they never think they are good enough to get published?

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No one said that your writing was garbage and I don't believe it was ever implied that anyone thought that.

It's perfectly fine to have confidence in your abilities. Many people do, but not everyone does. The thing you may not have realized is that confidence is not required to succeed. You don't have to think your work is "good enough," you just have to have the tenacity to keep writing, submitting and improving until someone else does.