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Puddle Jumper
01-07-2006, 03:56 AM
Did anyone else hear or read what Pat Robertson said about Ariel Sharon's stroke? In this article even Pres. Bush disapproves of it as wholly inappropriate and offensive.

Here's a quote from that article...

Television evangelist Pat Robertson suggested Thursday that Mr. Sharon suffered a massive stroke because the prime minister defied, what he termed, the will of God by dividing Israel.

What do Christians here think about his comments? Personally I agree with Bush. Strokes are a natural part of life, to assume God prevents world leaders from suffering from health problems common to man is ridiculous. Tons of people suffer strokes, is Robertson going to say that God is angry at them?

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-01-06-voa60.cfm

Perks
01-07-2006, 04:17 AM
Tons of people suffer strokes, is Robertson going to say that God is angry at them?



No, just Mr. Sharon. This is the special relationship Pat Robertson enjoys with God almighty, that the Lord diagrams which natural calamities get the Divine Nudge and best yet, why he zaps the ones he does. Talk about being in the know. I can't believe the American people did not elect to the Presidency a man who even God himself is accountable to.

Pat~
01-07-2006, 04:24 AM
Puddlejumper, in all fairness, the link you provided was not very informative. While I'm not a fan of Pat Robertson, I think it's highly unfair to start a debate over what someone is said to have said.

Could you provide a link to an article which includes his exact words? If not, this thread is less intelligent debate, more akin to gossip...

Sheryl Nantus
01-07-2006, 04:24 AM
makes me glad I'm Catholic...

:D

even a bad Catholic is better than Robertson and his fundementalist junk.

Perks
01-07-2006, 04:29 AM
Puddlejumper, in all fairness, the link you provided was not very informative. While I'm not a fan of Pat Robertson, I think it's highly unfair to start a debate over what someone is said to have said.

Could you provide a link to an article which includes his exact words? If not, this thread is less intelligent debate, more akin to gossip...

Here you go pb.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sharon/index.html

Puddle Jumper
01-07-2006, 04:31 AM
Here you go pb.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sharon/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sharon/index.html)
Thanks, I might have found a better story if I'd looked harder earlier. I saw it on the national news last night so I knew it was credible, I just didn't think to look at the national news web sites. (long day)

Perks
01-07-2006, 04:33 AM
Thanks, I might have found a better story if I'd looked harder earlier. I saw it on the national news last night so I knew it was credible, I just didn't think to look at the national news web sites. (long day)

Yes and commentary from Pat Robertson can take a long day and make it a mean one too.

Pat~
01-07-2006, 04:38 AM
This article was a little better, but not much. It starts off with a quote lifted out of a conversation; no context to the quote is supplied, and there is no evidence of what he is replying to. It raises more questions than it answers as I read it.

I think Pat Robertson leaves much to be desired, don't get me wrong; I just don't like not being given all the facts, nor do I like feeling manipulated when reading an article. Give me the entire conversation in context, including what was said by the other party; then I might have an opinion. Until then, I'll reserve judgment.

Puddle Jumper
01-07-2006, 04:47 AM
Here's a couple more. One from Fox News (which is the most conservative of the national news channels) and one is from a link I got at K-Love's web site.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,180774,00.html

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22404

Puddle Jumper
01-07-2006, 04:50 AM
"God considers this land to be his," Robertson said on his TV program "The 700 Club." "You read the Bible and he says `This is my land,' and for any prime minister of Israel who decides he is going to carve it up and give it away, God says, `No, this is mine."'


I don't remember Jesus being that possessive about a piece of earth when He walked the earth. As I recall He told His disciples that every stone would one day be completely wiped away.

And last time I checked, it is the Christian viewpoint that Jews who reject Jesus are not God's people. Why would Pat Robertson then go jumping off a cliff like this? Sharon is a Jew, not a Christian, right?

Perks
01-07-2006, 04:51 AM
Here's the fair and balanced version:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,180774,00.html

Strangely, on the 700 Club website, I couldn't find a transcript of what he said, just the press release explaining why what he said wasn't supremely obnoxious. So, you're right, no luck in finding the whole thing in context, not even from the horse's as* - oops - mouth.

DARRELX
01-07-2006, 05:28 AM
I have herd this kind of thing before from these holy rollers, spirit filled (So called) Christians. I have a nervous cough, that becomes active, especially when I am stressed. I was told that it was punishment from God, for rejecting the Holy Spirit.

It just shows you, what nonsense people will get involved in when really rejecting the Holy Spirit. It is a sign of the times. Lets just hope that the one taking his place will not be the one spoken of by Paul in Thessalonians. The man of sin and son of perdition.

Perks
01-07-2006, 05:35 AM
Hmm, I do have to wonder what we'll say of Pat Robertson when he dies of cardiac arrest or colon cancer or Alzheimer's (let's hope it's not some fantasticly rare venereal disease) when he's 91 (or day after tomorrow, you never know.) Being as righteous as he his, the Lord would surely take him like Elijah - lock, stock and smoking-barrel-of-a-pie-hole, yes?

Mr. Robertson, everyone has to die of something. Is God making a point each and every time?

September skies
01-07-2006, 05:51 AM
That's why I can't stand those Christian preachers - it's people like them that give us a bad name.

DARRELX
01-07-2006, 07:17 AM
Yeah perks, apparently, it is a sin to be sick.

Death in fact is our punishment for original sin, so in that sense, we all have to die because of sin, maybe that is what Pat Robertson meant-lol!!!




That's why I can't stand those Christian preachers - it's people like them that give us a bad name.



There is a verse in Shakespeare’s Midsummer nights dream that reminds me of all the ridiculous men in the pulpit today,



Theseus, “ I wonder if the Lion be to speak”
Demetrius, “No wonder my Lord, one lion may when many asses do”

It was as if Demetrius was speaking of the church-LOL!!!

How many Asses are speaking in the pulpit today?

Puddle Jumper
01-07-2006, 07:56 AM
That's why I can't stand those Christian preachers - it's people like them that give us a bad name.
How about Faith Healer Benny Hinn? If you weren't fully healed it's because you don't have enough faith. You can only show how much faith you have by how much money you pour into the ministry. - I'm not kidding, I saw a documentary on this on HBO. Some poor family firlmly believed their child who was healed at a crusade but wasn't fully healed, in fact wasn't healed at all, wasn't healed because they didn't show they had enough faith and though they had given so much money they could barely live off what they had, they continued to find ways to give more money.

I find it sad, really.

Jamesaritchie
01-07-2006, 04:27 PM
Did anyone else hear or read what Pat Robertson said about Ariel Sharon's stroke? In this article even Pres. Bush disapproves of it as wholly inappropriate and offensive.

Here's a quote from that article...


What do Christians here think about his comments? Personally I agree with Bush. Strokes are a natural part of life, to assume God prevents world leaders from suffering from health problems common to man is ridiculous. Tons of people suffer strokes, is Robertson going to say that God is angry at them?

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-01-06-voa60.cfm

I think Robertson was being presumptuous i speaking for God. On the otehr hand, he did quote the Bible correctly. The Bible says exactly what Robertson said it does. Now, how much do you believe the Bible?

I don't pretend to think I know what God does or doesn't do in a given situation, but it's as foolish to say the stroke wasn't because of trying to divide Israel as it is to state that the stroke was because of this. Both statements are equally stupid. But at least Pat Robertson did read the Bible, and did quote God's words exactly as written.

Jamesaritchie
01-07-2006, 04:29 PM
That's why I can't stand those Christian preachers - it's people like them that give us a bad name.

No, it's people who don't believe and follow the Bible who give the rest of us a bad name. And more so, people who spend their time bad mouthing Chritisans in position of leadership. I'm pretty sure there are many verses in the Bible that talk about this in no uncertain terms.

Jamesaritchie
01-07-2006, 04:35 PM
Hmm, I do have to wonder what we'll say of Pat Robertson when he dies of cardiac arrest or colon cancer or Alzheimer's (let's hope it's not some fantasticly rare venereal disease) when he's 91 (or day after tomorrow, you never know.) Being as righteous as he his, the Lord would surely take him like Elijah - lock, stock and smoking-barrel-of-a-pie-hole, yes?

Mr. Robertson, everyone has to die of something. Is God making a point each and every time?

Well, if you believe the Bible, then yes, God is making a point each and every time anyone dies. And the Bible commands us to be righteous. In fact, Christ Himself tells all followers to "go and be perfect.

It amazes me to hear such bad-mouthing and gossiping from supposed Christians. No wonder the church is in such trouble,

MacAllister
01-07-2006, 04:37 PM
Far be it from me not to beat up on Pat Robertson, when given the opportunity. :)



With that said, though, I have to observe that the guy has become a favorite whipping-boy for the press. I wish they'd go do some real journalism.

johnnysannie
01-07-2006, 05:41 PM
No, it's people who don't believe and follow the Bible who give the rest of us a bad name. And more so, people who spend their time bad mouthing Chritisans in position of leadership. I'm pretty sure there are many verses in the Bible that talk about this in no uncertain terms.

Hmm. Some of the nastiest, most mean spirited people I have ever known in my life claimed to be Christians. Christians and believers come in many varieties and yes, I've known some who were good people but many were not. Some of the most outragest wrongs I've known first hand were delivered by "Christians". I've also found that many Bible believers know little to nothing about the book and mouth what they've heard from the pulpit.

I'm Catholic - and that's not Christian or so I've been told by any number of Christians who considered my particular branch to be heretic and idol worshipping.

Robertson's words are harsh, judgemental, and wrong. Maybe he missed that verse that says Judge not, lest ye be judged. I've been around far too many fundamentalist Christians that claim every illness is a punishment from God and that someone who becomes ill must have a secret sin. Unless someone has been around such believers, they have no idea how radical some of their beliefs are.

Perks
01-07-2006, 06:59 PM
Well, if you believe the Bible, then yes, God is making a point each and every time anyone dies. And the Bible commands us to be righteous. In fact, Christ Himself tells all followers to "go and be perfect.

It amazes me to hear such bad-mouthing and gossiping from supposed Christians. No wonder the church is in such trouble,

Just for clarity, James, I am in no way a supposed christian. My issue comes from, say, Pat Robertson's beloved grandmother dying. (Should be obvious, but I'm making use of a hypothetical situation here. Pat Robertson's granny may be running laps around the track at Bob Jones University, for all I know.) Would Mr. Robertson be privvy for what sin, in particular, God was systematically stripping away Granny's faculties and capabilities? What about his secretary's teenaged son stricken with bone cancer? Good boy, church going boy. Sings in the choir and chastely dates only good christain girls. Is that just a tragedy that God allows, for we know he works in mysterious ways, or did Junior offend God in some biblically sitable transgression?

I know the bible, James. Gagged down a steady diet of it growing up. Mr. Robertson spoke the references correctly. It's just his presumption that he is allowed to connect the dots and speak for God that galls me.

Puddle Jumper
01-07-2006, 09:21 PM
Bottom line, Robertson's words were very callous, unkind, uncaring, although the Palestinians might have thought them amusing. If something happened to Bush, I suppose Robertson would say it's because he didn't take more of a stand against homosexuality.

I could think of people in the world who would be bigger candidates for God to strike down than Sharon. The idea that God is possessive about a particular piece of land in this world just doesn't sound like Him to me. He desires people to keep forever, not a piece of land that will one day be destroyed. At least that's how I understand the Bible.

I think his desire to possess Israel would refer to Israelites, Jews. Again, the impression I get in the Bible is that often when it talks about the nation of Israel, it's talking about the people, not the physical earth.

William Haskins
01-08-2006, 02:13 AM
james is right. robertson quoted the bible correctly. just as the anti-gay groups do with leviticus. religious people have to reconcile the literal words of their sacred texts with the common sense of the modern, enlightened human; unfortunately such growing pains are dangerous, often fatal.

i'm not bashing religion. i'm just saying when you get to a point where you have to cherrypick which scripture is applicable in light of science or philosophy or cultural evolution, you should probably take a hard look at how valid your belief system is.

DeniseK
01-08-2006, 02:53 AM
How about Faith Healer Benny Hinn? If you weren't fully healed it's because you don't have enough faith. You can only show how much faith you have by how much money you pour into the ministry. - I'm not kidding, I saw a documentary on this on HBO. Some poor family firlmly believed their child who was healed at a crusade but wasn't fully healed, in fact wasn't healed at all, wasn't healed because they didn't show they had enough faith and though they had given so much money they could barely live off what they had, they continued to find ways to give more money.

I find it sad, really.

It's more than sad. And it makes me worry, not so much about the crooked and twisted TV evangelists, but that we have so many stupid people in America.

emeraldcite
01-08-2006, 10:26 PM
james is right. robertson quoted the bible correctly. just as the anti-gay groups do with leviticus. religious people have to reconcile the literal words of their sacred texts with the common sense of the modern, enlightened human; unfortunately such growing pains are dangerous, often fatal.

i'm not bashing religion. i'm just saying when you get to a point where you have to cherrypick which scripture is applicable in light of science or philosophy or cultural evolution, you should probably take a hard look at how valid your belief system is.

I agree. I always find it interesting when preachers go on the air and pray, or there are prayer groups and rallies, and signs that say gay people are going to hell.

For the most part, Jesus was accepting of everyone and preached that. He also said that you shouldn't make a spectacle of prayer, but people do. (Matthew 6:5-6).

Everyone can cherry-pick.

And Pat Robertson scares me. Always has. Anyone with that kind of influence must be careful about what they say. From the times I actually sat through his broadcasts, I am always offended that someone who claims they are Christian could be so unaccepting and horrible. It boggles the mind.

William Haskins
01-08-2006, 11:50 PM
but if he's interpreting the bible literally, is it he who is horrible or the bible?

emeraldcite
01-09-2006, 02:58 AM
but if he's interpreting the bible literally, is it he who is horrible or the bible?

True, but I do not know the context of the quote he used. For all intents and purposes, God could be talking of the Promised Land, a small mound of dirt, or the entire planet. I'm not really sure.

However, despite the quote he used, his sentiments lately have been quite off mark (such as the talk of assassinating that guy in south america). I saw clips and transcripts of that one too. It's odd.

Ralyks
01-09-2006, 05:18 PM
but if he's interpreting the bible literally, is it he who is horrible or the bible?

He's inerpreting the Bible period, just like every other Christian who interprets the Bible, and they often come to different conclusions based on the same scriptures--there are differences in interpretation even among evangelicals, even among liberals, even among fundamentalists, literalists, symbolists, whatever. Christians don't worship the Bible (or shouldn't); they worship God. The Bible is just the best way we have to delve into God's mind right now, since he isn't physically strolling the earth and preaching in fields. It will always be subject to interpretation and debate among Christians.

Puddle Jumper
01-10-2006, 05:30 AM
but if he's interpreting the bible literally, is it he who is horrible or the bible?
That's up to interpretation. You can say you're quoting the Bible literally and still be taking it totally out of context.

Ivonia
01-10-2006, 05:54 AM
That's up to interpretation. You can say you're quoting the Bible literally and still be taking it totally out of context.

Some food for thought. Didn't Satan also quote scripture when he was tempting Jesus out in the desert, and taking the quotes out of context?. And doesn't it say in the Bible that Satan also disguises himself as an "angel of light"? must be where that "evil people don't see themselves as doing evil" (at least in good fiction hehe) thing came from.

Jesus already knew that there would be people who would claim to be working for Him (or even claim to be Him in some cases), hence the warnings about "wolves in sheep's clothing" and about "hearing him, but not listening" (I'm sorry, I don't know the passages, but if someone could help me out, I'm positive I've read these in the Bible). I remember reading Jesus say that people will claim to have done the work of God, but by their actions (and words in some cases, such as this Pat Robertson one I'm sure), they deny it.

I probably shouldn't say anymore than this, as I myself am far from perfect. But people like Pat Robertson certainly do bring the warnings Jesus taught about in the Bible to life, and for me, it helps to reinforce what was was said in the Bible.

Puddle Jumper
01-10-2006, 06:17 AM
I believe Jesus said that at the very end of time there would be those who would say to him, "Lord, Lord," and he would reply, "I never knew you." People who profess Him as Lord, thought and believed that they knew Him and had a relationship with Him, and it turns out they didn't. At least that's how I interpret the verse.

Kind of like in the Bible somewhere I'm pretty sure it talks about some people who had been going around casting out demons, but they really hadn't. And then when they came across someone who was truly demon possessed the person recognized that they did not carry the authority of Christ and jumped them and sent them all fleeing bleeding and naked. I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.

It all boils down to how good deeds alone do not save a person. Your actions don't save you, grace saves you and if you're truly saved, your actions will start showing that more.

goldpeace
01-11-2006, 05:50 PM
Physical imperfections and physical death began after the "fall" in the Garden of Eden.

Though our spirit lives on for eternity, God made it clear that our physical bodies are temporary. I don't believe he "punishes" people by causing their death- Stress, imperfect diets, disease, carelessness, old age, or murderers in an imperfect world cause our physical death.

Though I admire a lot of the humanitarian work that Pat Robertson's organization does...he seems to stick his foot in his mouth often, and his comments are contrary many times to the Christian philosophy of compassion, mercy & grace.

Just my opinion!

ldumont999
01-11-2006, 06:01 PM
The bottom line is this -- God loves Pat Robertson along with every other sinner on this earth. Earlier in his ministry, I doubt that Pat Robertson would have said some of the things he's been saying of late. The man is getting old and "foot in mouth disease" is something that seems to plague him these days.

Is he right? I agree with most of the posts here that God is bigger than Pat Robertson's words. Do I think that God strikes down those who don't walk in his path? If that were the case this country (and most others) would likely be without our politians and most corporate CEO's.

But guys, lets dish out a little grace for Pat and everyone else -- even if Pat Robertson can't seem to do this.

Cheryll
01-13-2006, 12:49 AM
Bottom line, in my opinion, is that something like this should never have been said. Far be it from me to know the mind of God, and yet Mr. Robertson claims to be "in the know" as to what God's intentions are.

Pat Robertson's ministry has done a good many things over the years. But lately, this man has said some very foolish things. He's become the media's whipping boy for a reason.

Blessings,

Cheryll

Puddle Jumper
01-13-2006, 08:18 AM
Pat Robertson has apologized for his words against Sharon. Read the article here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060112/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_christians).

This seems to be becoming a habit for Robertson, doesn't it? A tragedy strikes, he condemns the victims saying that God is pouring His wrath out on them, and then later apologizes for his comments.

Didn't he do that after the 9/11 attacks?

I think it hurts his credibility. The Bible talks about the tongue being filled with evils in which we both praise God and curse men. We all struggle with taming our tongue but I think public figures, especially those in Christian leadership, really should watch what they say all the more because it reaches and affects so many more people.

PattiTheWicked
01-13-2006, 08:52 AM
That's why I can't stand those Christian preachers - it's people like them that give us a bad name.

Oh, I don't think so. They give themselves a bad name, but not others. In no way do I think this numnutz speaks on behalf of any of the Christians I call friend.

Likewise, when Halloween rolls around and the news channels drag out some black-nailpolish-wearing, filed-to-a-point-tooth-having, pentacle-the-size-of-a-dinner-plate-displaying idiot in makeup that would make a clown scream, I am well aware that these people do not speak for all pagans or Wiccans.

Puddle Jumper
01-13-2006, 09:06 AM
Oh, I don't think so. They give themselves a bad name, but not others. In no way do I think this numnutz speaks on behalf of any of the Christians I call friend.

Likewise, when Halloween rolls around and the news channels drag out some black-nailpolish-wearing, filed-to-a-point-tooth-having, pentacle-the-size-of-a-dinner-plate-displaying idiot in makeup that would make a clown scream, I am well aware that these people do not speak for all pagans or Wiccans.
I think clowns are scarier.

September skies
01-13-2006, 11:39 AM
Oh, I don't think so. They give themselves a bad name, but not others. In no way do I think this numnutz speaks on behalf of any of the Christians I call friend.

Oh yes they do too give us a bad name! You may not think so but I've seen it again and again. I do realize that they give themselves a bad name but non-believers are always quick to point out the fall of Jimmy Swaggart, the diamond studded and overly made up Jim and Tammy, etc. etc.

People look at them (I'm not saying everybody) and they think that all Christians are like that - I've had it pointed out again and again when I used to speak to unbelievers (at one time, hubby and I were youth pastors)

September skies
01-13-2006, 11:41 AM
Pat Robertson has apologized for his words against Sharon. Read the article here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060112/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_christians).

I heard it on the radio today as I was driving - I haven't read the article yet but apparently he said that he said what he did because he loves Israel so much.

SeanDSchaffer
01-13-2006, 01:10 PM
How about Faith Healer Benny Hinn? If you weren't fully healed it's because you don't have enough faith. You can only show how much faith you have by how much money you pour into the ministry. - I'm not kidding, I saw a documentary on this on HBO. Some poor family firlmly believed their child who was healed at a crusade but wasn't fully healed, in fact wasn't healed at all, wasn't healed because they didn't show they had enough faith and though they had given so much money they could barely live off what they had, they continued to find ways to give more money.

I find it sad, really.


It didn't take a documentary for me to see that happen. I experienced it, though not from Benny Hinn. My issue was with a Trinity Broadcasting Network Prayer Partner a few years ago. I think it was in 2000, and they were running a pledge drive of $2,000.00 for the year 2000. Stupid me, I pledged that amount. Then I had to rescind it because I said it with the belief I would get a miracle to allow me to give that kind of money, just like the people on the network said. I'm a Social Security recipient who doesn't get that kind of money in two months' pay.

When I told the Prayer Partner this, he told me point-blank that I was not a Believer, because I did not have the faith to give the money he believed God required me to give.


Oh, and quickly, that quote from the article a ways up the thread:


"God considers this land to be his," Robertson said on his TV program "The 700 Club." "You read the Bible and he says `This is my land,' and for any prime minister of Israel who decides he is going to carve it up and give it away, God says, `No, this is mine."'

The Bible does say that God says 'This is my land.' It says it in reference to all the Earth, not just the Promised Land. I don't know exactly where, but I remember reading that in the Old Testament, in the 'Pentateuch' (The first five books of the Bible.)

I have seen Pat Robertson put his foot in his mouth so many times I decided years ago that I did not want to watch him anymore. Like someone said above, he scares me.


BTW, for those who are wondering, I'm a Fundamentalist myself, and I can tell you that much of what Robertson believes, Fundamentalists don't. At least not the Fundamental Baptists, among whom I was raised. Most Fundamentalists I know, think very low of Mr. Robertson.

Betty W01
01-13-2006, 10:55 PM
This board is for discussing Christian writing, being a Christian writer, content of Christian writing, etc. It is not for Christian-bashing. Whether or not Pat Robertson said what he is supposed to have said, whether or not it was unkind, unscriptural, ungodly, or just plain unthinking, I think enough has been posted about it for now. Let us all learn a lesson from this - think before we open our mouths and let our words be seasoned with God when we do speak. And now, let's change the subject, 'K?