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nighttimer
06-26-2012, 12:33 AM
:rant: This is a rant. Sorry about that. :rant:

If you're Black have you ever heard about some awful crime and thought to yourself, "I hope they ain't Black."

I read about this story today and as my blood boiled, my heart sank:


DENVER -- A Denver police officer trying to break up a confrontation was shot and killed Sunday at a city park where hundreds of families had gathered for a free weekly jazz concert before gunfire erupted and sent hundreds fleeing.


The officer, who was shot in the head, was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead, police spokesman Sonny Jackson said. The Denver Post reported (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20930984/denver-city-park-jazz-police-officer-killed) that one person has been taken into custody but added they had not been confirmed as a suspect.
NBC News station KUSA reported (http://www.9news.com/news/article/274118/339/Denver-officer-killed-in-City-Park-shooting?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cbc%7Clarge) that officers were seen searching a dumpster near a lake on Sunday night.


According to the newspaper, the slain officer was a single mother who was originally from Detroit. She was a seven-year veteran of the police force, the Post reported.


At least three shots were fired shortly after the jazz band playing on a lake-side pavilion stage finished, sending waves of people running through park grounds where some concert-goers who were initially unaware of the shooting remained seated on picnic blankets and lawn chairs.Goddammit, why do these gun-toting, mouth-breathing, loser assholes always have to mess up everything.

That was my initial thought.

Then I read more through the story looking for hints of the race of the cop and the shooter. There were no names, but mentioning the slain officer was a single-mother from Detroit sent up red flares.

Shit. I bet she's Black.

Nothing reveled the suspect's race until I found a follow-up story in the Denver Post: (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20933323/details-come-denver-police-officer-shooting-one-custody)


A 21-year-old man with a clean criminal record in Colorado on Monday was advised he is being investigated for the murder of Denver Police Officer Celena Hollis.

Police believe Rollen Oliver, 21, shot Hollis in the head when she responded to a report that two groups were fighting during the City Park Jazz concert Sunday night.
Monday morning he appeared at an advisement hearing.

He was escorted into the courtroom by six Denver deputies, all of whom had black and blue bands of mourning over their badges.

Oliver wore a red jail jumpsuit and had chains around his waist that were held by a deputy. He was handcuffed and shackled.


He is being held in the Denver jail without bond, facing first-degree murder charges.Rollen Oliver. Yeah, he's probably Black.

Dammit.

I tell myself nobody is responsible for the bad actors who shame themselves and by extension shame their entire race. I know in my rational and logical mind there is no reason to think this way. No one, no matter how noble or evil or foolish represents or reflects on every other member of a racial or ethnic group.

The journalist Carl T. Rowan sagely observed, A minority group has "arrived" only when it has the right to produce some fools and scoundrels without the entire group paying for it.

Logically, sure, I know this to be true, but the failures of Black people are so often shoved under my nose, I find myself actively craving and seeking the success stories (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57451723/hrabowski-an-educator-focused-on-math-and-science/) just to remind myself we're ALL not thugs, criminals, psychos and human garbage.

The Black race has produced philosophers, healers, entertainers, scientists, politicians, athletes and other men and women of distinction that have made the world a better place.

It needs more like Celina Hollis and a lot less like Rollen Oliver.

I shouldn't feel embarrassed for every Black person, but when I know how this kind of tragedy will be seen (and spun) as Blacks killing, Blacks being violent, Blacks doing stupid shit, Blacks proving every horrible stereotype about us is true, I do feel embarrassed for every Black person who doesn't kill, who isn't violent, who do smart stuff and prove every horrible stereotype about us is false.

After all, do White people ever feel a sense of collective guilt that Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer and Jerry Sandusky are White? No such shame in their game.

W.E.B. DuBois said, "The Negro race, like all races, is going to be saved by its exceptional men (and women, I would amend)." DuBois was speaking of a "Talented Tenth" percent of the race that would rescue the remainder of the race. It sounds a bit elitist, but DuBois was fundamentally correct it's the exceptional people of a race that inspire and lead the rest of the race.

I don't know if Celina Hollis was exceptional, but I'm certain Rollen Oliver was not.

I keep hoping they ain't Black but I'm continually disappointed and seldom surprised when I know they are.

Zoombie
06-26-2012, 12:48 AM
After all, do White people ever feel a sense of collective guilt that Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer and Jerry Sandusky are White? No such shame in their game.

I know I'm atypical. I'm a weirdo. But...yeah, I feel pretty disgusted with my own race when I think of Hitler. The worst part is he thought he was doing people like me a favor. Fucking asshole...

The burden isn't on black people to prove that they're human. The burden is on white people to stop making the qualification for "human" to be "white."

Black people, as far as I can tell, have been doing just fine in terms of the humanity department...with all the good and bad that brings. Because, at the end of the day, the difference between Adolph Hitler and Martin Luther King Junior is less than one one hundrednth of a percent - at least when it comes to DNA and genetics.

The real difference is between the eyes and in the chest. And that's changed by how people are raised, how they think, and how they are taught.

So...for all the good it's worth, I think that the world is going to remember Celena. She sounds like she was worth remembering. Hell, spending just five minutes with my nieces and nephews throws the whole "parenthood" thing in stark relief, I'd put her up for the medal of honor just being a single mom...add police officer ontop of that and I'd be halfway convinced she's a saint.

little_e
06-26-2012, 01:18 AM
Denver is such a lovely city. Lived there for many years.
There are poor folks in Denver. The poor areas, yeah, are more violent. It was hard to miss which parts of the neighborhood had more visits by the police.

As long as black folks are disproportionately poor, they're going to dominate the crime stats. An' it's a tragedy.

I used to feel guilty abut my race. Then I got angry at other races. Then I realized I was being stupid. I am responsible for me and no one else (well, and my kids.) So are you. So are we all.

thebloodfiend
06-26-2012, 01:40 AM
Sometimes, I feel this way as well. It's sad, but true. My relatives haven't helped much in that department, either.

Bookewyrme
06-26-2012, 01:46 AM
After all, do White people ever feel a sense of collective guilt that Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer and Jerry Sandusky are White? No such shame in their game.


Just adding my voice to Zoombie's. I don't feel it so much about Hitler, but I do feel ashamed when I hear about white supremacists, or that one guy (I can't remember if he was a preacher or a politician, which says something but that's another topic) who wanted to send all the blacks back to the plantation "for their own good" or the guys who thinks it's the right thing to do to send hispanic kids raised in this country to their "home" country even when they've spent their whole lives here. Basically, any time I hear of white folks oppressing others, I feel a little sad and angry and ashamed. As zoombie said though, we are exceptions not the rule.

But I do think little e has a point: We are each of us only responsible for our own actions (and our children's but only up to a point, after all we don't have remote-control chips in them...yet) and should not be held responsible for others' actions, or hold ourselves responsible. That way lies madness, I think.

JoNightshade
06-26-2012, 02:19 AM
Basically, any time I hear of white folks oppressing others, I feel a little sad and angry and ashamed. As zoombie said though, we are exceptions not the rule.

Just want to echo this. Since there's three of us, I'm not so sure we're exceptions? But when it's a white person specifically being racist, I'm embarrassed.

When I think of epic baddies like Hitler, though, it's not specifically linked to any race. Basically I just feel a little ashamed to be human.

thebloodfiend
06-26-2012, 02:21 AM
Not trying to be patronizing in the least, but I've often heard the term referred to as White Guilt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt).

Zoombie
06-26-2012, 02:31 AM
Eh, it's not a logical thing. No more logical than "black guilt."

And the desire to have other white people treat black people like human beings instead of subhuman animals isn't an expression of white guilt, or white mans burden or any of those nasty colonial ideologies. No more than men wanting other men to treat women as human beings instead of subhuman animals isn't an expression of misogyny.

It's called "being an ally."

Just don't be patronizing, self indulgent, deluded or any of the other common afflictions that can bog down being an ally.

sliccat
06-26-2012, 02:36 AM
.

Kitty Pryde
06-26-2012, 02:41 AM
Just a reminder to everybody to keep it civil, Respect Your Fellow Writer, and read the room rules stickies at the top of the PoC forum.

thebloodfiend
06-26-2012, 02:48 AM
I do think there's a difference between White Guilt (which isn't synonymous with the White Man's Burden) and being an Ally. I only brought it up because I've heard the term used to describe white people who feel guilty for slavery and the things Hitler did.

It's also quite different from black guilt, though neither are logical. When the proportion of positive images of blacks is skewed in the media, as opposed to the proportion of positive images of whites, there's no comparison. I mean, I really do feel embarrassed when I watch a Tyler Perry movie, knowing that this might be the only exposure to black people a sheltered white kid might see. Aaron McGruder, Spike Lee, and TP are pretty much the only "big" black directors out there.

It gets worse when you hear people talk about OJ and Michael Jackson and Barry Bonds and Michale Vic, and you try to rationalize with yourself that their misdeeds do not fall onto the entirety of your race. And when watching a movie like Finding Forrester or Akeelah and the Bee makes you feel good about your race. I mean, do you guys watch (insert movie with white MC) and think, goddamn, I'm so glad they didn't coon it up or make the white dude the rapist or kill him off in five minutes, thank god for this positive portrayal of white people. Every time I hear someone gush about The Help, or some TP movie, or laugh at a "black" joke, I cringe.

Anyway, I'd say being an Ally is positive, you don't make it all about youself. I'd say White Guilt shifts the focus from the group in question, to the person who feels the guilt, often placing the group they're trying to equalize or respect on a pedestal, dehumanizing them in the process. Quite frankly, it's annoying. It leads to magical negros, magical wise natives, and the gay best friend who's only purpose is to help the MC. It gets more annoying when cultural appropriation comes into play.

I suppose I should've clarified above.

/derail

Zoombie
06-26-2012, 02:53 AM
Yeah, I get that and I think it's better to mention that something MIGHT be a problem so that people can look at themselves rather than be silent and let the problem fester.

And yeah, there's a distinct and clear difference in the ways of thoughts...and that's why it's vitally important to have multifaceted, complex, and more importantly, HUMAN characters of color. I mean, aside from the fact that diversity in and of itself is a good thing - makes things interesting - but inclusiveness has a positive effect on the readers.

It's not going to "solve racism", but it's a good step towards helping.

Lavern08
06-26-2012, 11:10 PM
...I shouldn't feel embarrassed for every Black person, but when I know how this kind of tragedy will be seen (and spun) as Blacks killing, Blacks being violent, Blacks doing stupid shit, Blacks proving every horrible stereotype about us is true,

I do feel embarrassed for every Black person who doesn't kill, who isn't violent, who do smart stuff and prove every horrible stereotype about us is false...

Yeah that ^ http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif


(But then I have to keep reminding myself not to turn into a POC with the mindset of Adolph Caesar's character in A Soldier's Story.)

Jcomp
06-27-2012, 01:07 AM
Oh yeah, I think about this pretty regularly. Ultimately it's not even about feeling "guilty," but worrying about "guilt by association." In my most cynical moments I think that it's not too improbable for something to happen that will cause a threateningly large portion of the population to openly turn against black people. Asians suffered this fate in the wake of Pearl Harbor (and to a much lesser extent, due to the threat of Japanese competition with American motor companies--this week was the 30th anniversary of Vincent Chin's murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Vincent_Chin), which resulted in something less than a slap on the wrist for his murderers). Various dark-skinned people of even vaguely "Middle-Eastern" descent suffered this in the aftermath of 9/11. We're all susceptible to it, save for the one racial / ethnic group in the country that's all but guaranteed to win if it really went down. That's not an accusation, that's just reality.

nighttimer
06-27-2012, 02:39 AM
It's also quite different from black guilt, though neither are logical. When the proportion of positive images of blacks is skewed in the media, as opposed to the proportion of positive images of whites, there's no comparison. I mean, I really do feel embarrassed when I watch a Tyler Perry movie, knowing that this might be the only exposure to black people a sheltered white kid might see. Aaron McGruder, Spike Lee, and TP are pretty much the only "big" black directors out there.

It gets worse when you hear people talk about OJ and Michael Jackson and Barry Bonds and Michale Vic, and you try to rationalize with yourself that their misdeeds do not fall onto the entirety of your race. And when watching a movie like Finding Forrester or Akeelah and the Bee makes you feel good about your race. I mean, do you guys watch (insert movie with white MC) and think, goddamn, I'm so glad they didn't coon it up or make the white dude the rapist or kill him off in five minutes, thank god for this positive portrayal of white people. Every time I hear someone gush about The Help, or some TP movie, or laugh at a "black" joke, I cringe.

Anyway, I'd say being an Ally is positive, you don't make it all about youself. I'd say White Guilt shifts the focus from the group in question, to the person who feels the guilt, often placing the group they're trying to equalize or respect on a pedestal, dehumanizing them in the process. Quite frankly, it's annoying. It leads to magical negros, magical wise natives, and the gay best friend who's only purpose is to help the MC. It gets more annoying when cultural appropriation comes into play.


When you know the image beamed around the world is one of Black-on-Black crime, Black-on-White crime, Black poverty, Black pathology, Black failure, how many clean-cut, educated, articulate, non-threatening, SAFE colored people does it take to counter those perceptions?

I submit if you cloned Colin, Bill, Oprah, Barack, Will, Tiger, Condoleeza, and Sidney and dispatched them around the globe as goodwill ambassadors of the Black race, it would still fail to undo the fear and loathing caused by one asshole's actions. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html)

It doesn't matter how far we advance. We can still be yanked back by one fool. It's not right. It's not fair. But it is what it is.

Sometimes I don't want to be a credit to my race. I'd rather sit in my chair, scratching inappropriately and guzzling a Bud Lite. Then the news comes on about the weekend's body count in Chicago and I have to put on a suit and tie and smile when I'm not down for that.

It just gets old. It's tiresome always having to be on your best behavior.

Celia Cyanide
06-27-2012, 02:48 AM
I think this is probably a perfect example of white priviledge, and the things we white folks take for granted being white. When a white person does something horrible and disgusting, I don't have to worry about everybody who isn't white thinking, "Yup, that's what they're like."

I remember when the news about the Virginia Tech massacre broke. There was a Hmong guy at our clinic, and he was really upset about it, and he said, "That guy's Asian. He's going to make me look bad."

And what did the media do? They said, "He must have gotten this from Old Boy, because he is Korean, and the people in Old Boy are also Korean."

Having said all of that, I agree with Zoombie that I do feel pretty disgusted when a white person does something racist and icky. I think I feel that way because that person generally wants people to think they stand for all white people and they don't.

zahra
06-27-2012, 03:01 AM
Yes, I feel this, and I hate feeling it.

One thing that strikes me, though, is that the white people here all feel bad when a white person does something racist, not when they commit ANY kind of heinous crime. White people don't cringe because of the race of, say, the Green River Killer as I bet blacks would have done had he been black.

I guess that's the privilege of your race only being spotlighted when it's in relation to another group's race. Our race is spotlighted all the time.

backslashbaby
06-27-2012, 01:25 PM
Yes, I feel this, and I hate feeling it.

One thing that strikes me, though, is that the white people here all feel bad when a white person does something racist, not when they commit ANY kind of heinous crime. White people don't cringe because of the race of, say, the Green River Killer as I bet blacks would have done had he been black.

I guess that's the privilege of your race only being spotlighted when it's in relation to another group's race. Our race is spotlighted all the time.

Yep!

But I do think we white folks look bad to PoC about a lot of other things, so I do think about that often. It's not the same thing at all, though. It's not about serious issues when it's not about racism, and people thinking badly of you is just not the same thing as what the non-privileged go through. At all.

aruna
06-27-2012, 02:46 PM
My heart sinks whenever the perp turns out to be a PoC. Especially here in Germany, where PoC are a dwindling minority trying hard to gain full acceptance.

Williebee
06-28-2012, 03:53 AM
Maybe it is a matter of white privilege. I hear about Sandusky and feel sorrow and anger, and some shame for my species and sex. I hear about the racist crap some skinhead Michigan Militia wannabee pulls and feel that same anger, and a little ashamed of my race. Or about bullshit some self-entitled tourist pulls in Italy or France and feel shame or at least embarrassment for my nationality. I keep thinking we should all have grown up out of this by now. But I don't hear "somebody shot so and so" and first think, I hope they aren't white. So, yeah, there is that. A couple of centuries of inherited privilege, victimization and negative stereotyping. I have to wonder how many it will take to get past it.

Mharvey
06-28-2012, 04:59 AM
While I personally don't have any experience with a "white guilt" type phenomenon, I believe my mother experiences something very close to what has been talked about in this thread. She's a die-hard Catholic.

She tears up, nearly breaking down, every time Catholicism is in the news, typically spearheaded by yet another priest/altar boy sex scandal. She feels ashamed and guilty over it. She's even come to me, in tears, asking me if our priest ever did anything to me... which, I have to laugh and say no. Of all my problems with that religion, the Irish-Catholic parish priest who actually came over to our house to watch the Patriots games, was not one of them in the least. A great man.

I think the reason I don't really feel "White Pride" or can't even begin to understand what people of color feel when one of their own commits a terrible crime is because I never really felt a sense of "white community". Then again, I grew up in suburban Boston where like 1 kid in my school was black and maybe two were latino. It wasn't a "white community"... it was just my community.

As my mother has a strong sense of "Catholic Pride", she takes it very personally when the church is involved in a scandal. Because these acts *do* lower the esteem of the body as the whole. And, I can see why a proud, upstanding black or proud latino man would feel the same thing when a member of their own commits a terrible crime.

The only thing I can say is, I think the majority of people (at least in my social circles and where I live) don't really acknowledge race as a big factor when it comes to crime, but poverty level. I think, if you look at people of all colors below the poverty line, the ratios of people who commit crimes per certain number are pretty even across the boards. Just, there's more poor latino/black people than white, so it seems like it's a racial problem... when in reality, their motivations would be the same as whites who lived where they lived and made what they made.

My hope for the future is that people of all income levels get the same chance to succeed on their own merits one day, on equal footing with people born to wealth. Foolishly optimistic? Maybe, but who knows what the next hundred or two hundred years will bring.

Unimportant
06-28-2012, 07:32 AM
I think this is probably a perfect example of white privilege, and the things we white folks take for granted being white. When a white person does something horrible and disgusting, I don't have to worry about everybody who isn't white thinking, "Yup, that's what they're like."
Yes, that's an excellent point.

I wonder if Republicans think "Oh, I hope it's not..." every time there's a news headline about "Politician caught having gay sex."

nighttimer
06-28-2012, 10:44 PM
When something like this (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/28/12457833-7-year-old-girl-heaven-shot-dead-in-chicago?lite) goes down I don't have "I Hope They Ain't Black" moments...


A 7-year-old girl was fatally shot in the back Wednesday outside of her family’s home in Chicago.

The girl, identified as Heaven Sutton, was selling candy with her mother and playing with friends around 10:45 p.m. in the city’s North Austin neighborhood when someone opened fire down the street, NBCChicago.com reported.


The girl’s mother, Ashake Banks, said she threw herself on the ground while her daughter ran into her family’s home. Moments later, Banks said she found her daughter unconscious inside a hallway.


“There were two guys,” Heaven’s brother, Malik Ellis told NBCChicago.com. “I saw one come out of the gangway. He walked into the middle of the street and started shooting.”


Heaven was rushed to an area hospital. She was pronounced dead there at 11:16 p.m., according to the Cook County medical examiner’s office.


“I’m lost for words. That was my pride and joy,” Banks told the Chicago Tribune.


Banks said the soon-to-be second grader told her on several occasions she wanted her family to move out of the violent neighborhood. She said her daughter was a sweet, smart girl.


Heaven is the 20th person under the age of 17 to be killed by gunfire in Chicago this year, reported the Chicago Tribune.
...because I already know they are Black. :cry:

_Sian_
06-29-2012, 03:29 PM
I think it also has a lot to do with worrying about what others think. Like others have mentioned in this thread, I get guilty when some idiot makes a comment that is either racist or homophobic. Thinking about it, the reason I don't feel guilt over the murders/other horrible things my race does is because I know I won't be ... blamed? That's not the right word, but I doubt anyone will associate me personally with that crime. Whereas I know people could associate me personally with racist or homophobic comments that are made by my people of my skin colour and/or social background.

I however do feel guilt when an Australian does something over seas that is a crime. Again, because there's the feeling that someone could associate being an Australian with that crime or behaviour.

RJLeahy
06-29-2012, 06:27 PM
This is an interesting conundrum of our species and I want to commend nighttimer for the way he presented his frustrations. It could have easily been much more inflammatory.

I say our species, because the us/not-us way in which we classify and sort other people is probably as old as homo sapiens. ("Hey, you see that Neanderthal? Keep an eye on him. Because you know, they're ALL that way.") It's imbedded in our psyches as a survival tool. Those who are not-us may want to hurt us, so they are not to be completely trusted. And when we can identify someone by something as simple as skin color, determining who is not-us becomes not only easy, but unavoidable. And of course, every anti-social act perpetrated by a non-us, only further confirms the suspicions of us.

This behavior isn't an entirely American phenomena, by the way, although our history of institutionalized slavery certainly made us one of the worst offenders. Muslims across America and Europe cringe just as much when the face of another 'martyr', is flashed on the TV following another suicide bombing. The venomous looks and whispered insults can be just as withering as those suffered during Jim Crow. There are non-color example as well (hutu and tutsi tribes in Rwanda), but I think the point has been made.

So what can be done? Well, education, greater familiarity, etc are all certainly helpful, but I don't think anything this deeply ingrained within us is easily changed. In fact, I'd argue after thirty thousand years and still dividing each other into us/not-us, proves that point.

What I think will improve things, at least in this country, is the change in demographics. It's clear that whites are slowly becoming the minority and not only because of lower birth rates and immigration. Whites are decreasing in number because of interracial marriage. As anyone who paints knows, white is the absence of color. Whether your spouse is black or Hispanic or middle eastern, your children will no longer be "white". Your own family is now part of the not-us, and that's just not something the human brain can wrap itself around easily.

As nighttimer correctly observes, cloning Colin, Bill, Oprah, Barack, Will, Tiger, Condoleeza, and Sidney would do little. It would simply be a world full of great and wonderful not-us's. Have an uncle Will, however, or an aunt Oprah, or cousin Tiger, and the whole thing crumbles under its own weight.

At least for here, and for this form of racism.

("Watch him closely", said Samuel, as Abdul walked into the store. "Because you know, they're ALL like that.")

Celia Cyanide
06-30-2012, 11:09 PM
I think it also has a lot to do with worrying about what others think. Like others have mentioned in this thread, I get guilty when some idiot makes a comment that is either racist or homophobic. Thinking about it, the reason I don't feel guilt over the murders/other horrible things my race does is because I know I won't be ... blamed? That's not the right word, but I doubt anyone will associate me personally with that crime. Whereas I know people could associate me personally with racist or homophobic comments that are made by my people of my skin colour and/or social background.

I don't think that "worrying about what others think" is really the issue, though...if you are priviledged, you do not have to worry about what others think. When someone from a disadvantaged group does something bad, people with an agenda against that group usually will try to use it against that group. White people do not need to worry about anybody using Jeffery Dahmer to advance their anti-white agenda.

nighttimer doesn't strike me as the type to worry much about what others think. :)

Kitty27
07-01-2012, 01:06 AM
I do this all the time.

POC,Blacks-in my case-are never judged as individuals. What one does,we all do. It's why I worry so about my sons. All three are quiet,fun loving and sweet boys. But because of the behavior of some Black boys and men,they are going to be lumped right in.

Just another issue we deal with on a daily basis,unfortunately.

nighttimer
07-01-2012, 01:28 AM
I don't think that "worrying about what others think" is really the issue, though...if you are priviledged, you do not have to worry about what others think. When someone from a disadvantaged group does something bad, people with an agenda against that group usually will try to use it against that group. White people do not need to worry about anybody using Jeffery Dahmer to advance their anti-white agenda.

nighttimer doesn't strike me as the type to worry much about what others think. :)

Nighttimer doesn't worry much about what others think of Nighttimer.

I worry very much about how Black people are thought of.

Between the hood rats and thug images so many young brothers and sisters have bought into and the Magic Negroes, Madeas and token Black friends that populate Hollywood's films I really can't blame non-Blacks for thinking we're all rappers, ballers, dancers, in prison on welfare, popping out babies or dying in the gutters from a gunshot wound.

There's a reason why Chris Rock's Black People vs. Niggers routine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4) resonated so much. It was the gospel truth.

:ROFL: We were laughing to keep from crying. :cry:

HorrorWriter
07-06-2012, 12:17 AM
Night,

Unfortunately, Black folks have been made to feel badly if a perpetrator ends up being Black. We shouldn't "own" those feelings, but collectively we often do.

I do it--sometimes. I know other AA's who do it. I have tried to stop doing it. We are made to feel that one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. It's very sickening. We are always treated like the "bad" guy, no matter what.

nighttimer
07-07-2012, 08:07 AM
Night,

Unfortunately, Black folks have been made to feel badly if a perpetrator ends up being Black. We shouldn't "own" those feelings, but collectively we often do.

I do it--sometimes. I know other AA's who do it. I have tried to stop doing it. We are made to feel that one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. It's very sickening. We are always treated like the "bad" guy, no matter what.

With the notable exception of embarrassments to the race like Uncle Clarence Thomas.

I don't think there's a dime's worth of real difference between the damage the most thuggish gang-banger, sleazy pimp, or ruthless drug dealer do to the Black community and the worst member of the Supreme Court. Uncle Ruckus/Thomas doesn't make me feel bad for Black folks. Just angry as hell how he dogs Black folks.

Given a choice between Uncle Thomas and Flavor Flav at his most repulsive, I'd have to sit and flip a coin best two out of three times and even then I'd still have to kill a bottle of really cheap vodka before I could make up my mind.

Midian
07-07-2012, 11:34 PM
Wow. I never realized PoC was here. Fascinating. I would've come by a lot sooner if I had paid attention.

I have a somewhat unique perspective (well, unique if you're not a half Korean, half white army brat that grew up overseas for the majority of the first half of your life). I am a PoC, but I have my foot in a couple doors.

Race, in the military, has never been an issue. At least not race in the military overseas. We were always one big group of Americans all trying not to make Americans look bad and getting really pissed off at the ones that did.

I'm always incredibly embarrassed by white people and it never has anything to do with race. Sure, I suppose I'm embarrassed by racist white folks but I'm no more embarrassed by them than I am of the trashy disgusting white guy in a wife-beater drinking beer in his front yard on a beat up old couch and a toilet in the yard with old and dried out crispy flower carcasses because at one point they thought their busted toilet would make a great flower pot. As far as I'm concerned, they're all embarrassing and they all make us look bad.

I'm not black so my experience with racism is not quite the same - asians are slightly less offensive to racist whites than blacks, I think. Only slightly. I've had my share of having to duck while driving through Ludowici, Georgia. At the time, they were still burning crosses. I don't know if that's true today, though.

I've experienced ignorance from other cultures based on my race and my citizenship. And I've experienced racism from Koreans for not being pure. To many, I simply don't belong anywhere and even though I don't get acceptance (some Koreans can be really nasty about it) I do seem to at least deserve their pity - which I don't want or need. That kind of embarrasses me but I don't think anyone really sees it enough for me to be embarrassed for an entire race. I understand there's a lot of this in the black community for not being black enough.

I've also found that *all* people tend to forget I'm a PoC, too. Normal, don't consider themselves racist types. They get too comfortable around me and say things they wouldn't have otherwise said to a person more noticeably asian (or white when I'm with asians). In some ways, because of that I think I might actually be confronted with more racism than the average PoC.

Even with all that, I still don't actually get embarrassed by acts committed by race and I rarely look at things as being a possible representation of an entire race. Strangely, I have wondered what other people like African Americans thought about it, or hispanics, etc. I've wondered how they respond to these types of things knowing how society views acts of violence/stupidity and applies it to the racial stereotype. I guess now I know. ;)

With Asians I find there are less stereotypes about violence (well, if you forget about the Yakuza and the secret/stealthy/enlightened/deadly ninja/samurai/monk stereotypes), but more for social skills and appearance.

But I'm always embarrassed by acts representing my citizenship. So it's a different view but similar. I grew up feeling the pressure of foreign eyes surrounding me and judging me solely based on what country I was born in. And I saw the racism of those countries which isn't any different from the racism here.

I lived in Germany when the wall came down. I lived 45 minutes from the Czech border. You wouldn't believe the racism that came down with the walls, or the people that behaved in ways that only fed their stereotypes. And when the Gypsies came...hoo boy howdy...

So as someone else said, it's not just Americans that deal with it. We just don't really see it in other countries because...we aren't in other countries.

Celia Cyanide
07-09-2012, 04:03 AM
I'm always incredibly embarrassed by white people and it never has anything to do with race. Sure, I suppose I'm embarrassed by racist white folks but I'm no more embarrassed by them than I am of the trashy disgusting white guy in a wife-beater drinking beer in his front yard on a beat up old couch and a toilet in the yard with old and dried out crispy flower carcasses because at one point they thought their busted toilet would make a great flower pot. As far as I'm concerned, they're all embarrassing and they all make us look bad.

Who? Poor people? You're more embarassed by white people who are poor than racist people? I'm just not sure what to make of your statement here, and why you're "always incredibly embarassed by white people."

Shadow Dragon
07-09-2012, 04:44 AM
I can understand the whole, I hope they ain't black, thing. I usually feel the same way when it's a GLBT person in the news. I think anyone in a minority group probably feels that way most of the time when someone from their group is in the news for a crime.

Midian
07-09-2012, 05:18 AM
Who? Poor people?

You said poor, I never did.


You're more embarassed by white people who are poor than racist people?

Again, you said poor. I never said poor nor did I imply poor. You don't have to be poor to be that guy. I know plenty of middle class people that are that guy. I know people with hundreds of acres of working ranch land that are that guy. Poor has nothing to do with it. Don't twist my words around to sound petty and trite, please.




I'm just not sure what to make of your statement here, and why you're "always incredibly embarassed by white people."

The thread is about being embarrassed by your race. And there was a comment made about white people not really being embarrassed by white people because it's not considered a reflection upon them. Lots of white people do lots of embarrassing things. I'm not real sure what's confusing to you about that. It seems more like you're trying to find a reason to be mad than to actually have one.

MacAllister
07-09-2012, 05:34 AM
Let's go gently, folks, and remember to assume goodwill on one another's part.

Otherwise, when the respective mod Kitties get back they'll smack the backs of some heads and I'll help 'em.

Celia Cyanide
07-10-2012, 05:32 AM
You said poor, I never did.



Again, you said poor. I never said poor nor did I imply poor. You don't have to be poor to be that guy. I know plenty of middle class people that are that guy. I know people with hundreds of acres of working ranch land that are that guy. Poor has nothing to do with it. Don't twist my words around to sound petty and trite, please.



The thread is about being embarrassed by your race. And there was a comment made about white people not really being embarrassed by white people because it's not considered a reflection upon them. Lots of white people do lots of embarrassing things. I'm not real sure what's confusing to you about that. It seems more like you're trying to find a reason to be mad than to actually have one.

I'm not mad. I'm trying to understand what you're saying. No need to be defensive. Just explain yourself, okay?

Midian
07-10-2012, 06:47 AM
I'm not mad. I'm trying to understand what you're saying. No need to be defensive. Just explain yourself, okay?

No, from every word you chose in your response to me, it wasn't at all trying to understand what I was saying. Is it really that hard to say, sorry, I didn't mean to twist your words around, please explain? It's the internets, by Gods, you don't even have to mean it; just be polite enough to say it. Or just as acceptable would've been no apology but a simple that's not how I meant it, please explain. Or even if you still wanted to toss blame on me for saying something that might have been inadvertently offensive (it wouldn't be the first time I've done that): that was the implication I was getting from what you said, if that's not what you meant please explain. (These are all rhetorical observations, I'm not looking for a response.)

:Huh: Instead it's somehow an overreaction on my part for being so silly as to be insulted by something that to me, was obviously geared to skew what I said. Pretending like it's not even a little understandable to you that I would take it the way I did, even if it was a misunderstanding, is beyond me.

I really don't understand that and I think the best course of action for me is to just walk away. I dunno. Maybe I'm still being defensive. But in my experience, it's turned into the kind of conversation that never goes anywhere good, especially when it seems someone is hell-bent on making me out to be a bad guy no matter what I say.

I'm sure the conversation'll get back on a better course without me in it.

:gone:

Celia Cyanide
07-10-2012, 07:25 AM
Pretending like it's not even a little understandable to you that I would take it the way I did, even if it was a misunderstanding, is beyond me.

And yet, you are saying things like:

the trashy disgusting white guy in a wife-beater drinking beer in his front yard on a beat up old couch and a toilet in the yard with old and dried out crispy flower carcasses because at one point they thought their busted toilet would make a great flower pot

and pretending you don't know that it's a stereotype of poor people, and pretending you don't understand why I would think it sounds a little classist. If you look at my post, I actually did ask you what you meant, and you still haven't explained this example. You don't have to explain it if you don't want to, but I am not going to apologize because I asked.

writeaway
07-13-2012, 02:13 AM
I was praying to God that the person eating that man on the bridge wasn't black. He was. :(

I also get annoyed now there are starting to be more black serial killers. UGH!

WildScribe
07-13-2012, 02:35 AM
I can understand the whole, I hope they ain't black, thing. I usually feel the same way when it's a GLBT person in the news. I think anyone in a minority group probably feels that way most of the time when someone from their group is in the news for a crime.

Me too. I also get strangely jumpy when my gay friends divorce. It makes no logical sense, but a part of me just wants to scream "You couldn't just hold it together and smile until the legalize this universally?!"

nighttimer
07-13-2012, 09:40 AM
I was praying to God that the person eating that man on the bridge wasn't black. He was. :(

I also get annoyed now there are starting to be more black serial killers. UGH!

Not exactly what Dr. King was getting at with his dream of equality, right?

Rachel Udin
07-13-2012, 09:15 PM
When that kid a few years back who was Korean American shot a bunch of people at that college (I think it was an Ivy league??) Korea apologized for him. Sent a letter to the college asking that it would not reflect poorly on the Koreans in the college. (I know that confused a lot of the white community... Why is an entire country apologizing for one student? And when that student isn't even a Korean citizen).

Which goes to show... yes! PoCs seem to feel this everywhere. They ain't one of ours... please tell me you won't use them as an example of our entire country/nationality/ethnic group/race.

EarlyBird
07-20-2012, 04:58 AM
Many times I'm ashamed to be human.

nighttimer
07-21-2012, 09:08 AM
Many times I'm ashamed to be human.

Q.F.T.

The shooting spree in Aurora, Colorado perfectly encapsulated the danger of assumptions.

When I first saw the news, I thought if the body count was confined to the single-digits, it might be a gang-related shooting or some jerk who decide to come to the the movie strapped.

In other words: The shooter would probably be Black or Latino.

Once I saw the degree of planning, the systematic and deliberate way the gunman (because it's nearly always a man) planned and executed his crime and how cruel and sadistic he was in dispatching his victims, that indicated something else entirely.

In other words: The shooter would probably be White.

And there would be no collective guilt for White people because James Holmes is a lone nutcase. Aren't they all?

JSSchley
07-21-2012, 09:18 AM
Once I saw the degree of planning, the systematic and deliberate way the gunman (because it's nearly always a man) planned and executed his crime and how cruel and sadistic he was in dispatching his victims, that indicated something else entirely.

In other words: The shooter would probably be White.

And there would be no collective guilt for White people because James Holmes is a lone nutcase. Aren't they all?

This were my thoughts almost exactly this morning...

I remember all the jokes with the school shooting in Finland, saying that of course people should start racially profiling blue-eyed blonds. But the thing is, it could be a joke, because it wouldn't happen. Lone nutcase, as you say.

Celia Cyanide
07-21-2012, 09:39 AM
Stangely, the Colorado shooting made me think, "I hope he's not a Batman fan." Weird, huh?

nighttimer
07-21-2012, 09:52 AM
Stangely, the Colorado shooting made me think, "I hope he's not a Batman fan." Weird, huh?

Nah. Not really. Those who know nothing about Chris Nolan's take on Batman will be quick to suggest his films played a role in the evil actions of James Holmes.

First, they want to know what the killer's political allegiances are. If that doesn't bear fruit, they'll go after his pop culture interests. If Holmes has written a manifesto somewhere and wants to claim he wanted to "watch the world burn" they'll blame it on The Joker (and Nolan).

People love easy answers to hard questions. It saves them the trouble of having to think too much and go beyond their own narrow and limited prejudices.

Midian
07-22-2012, 12:40 AM
Those who know nothing about Chris Nolan's take on Batman will be quick to suggest his films played a role in the evil actions of James Holmes.

I pictured it playing out more via Rush Limbaugh than Chris Nolan. Guess we know who I detest, eh?

missesdash
07-26-2012, 01:32 AM
Great thread topic. I feel this way whenever I see black women oversexualizong themselves. It's weird because I know it's slut shaming—it's none of my business if a black woman shakes her ass for YouTube likes. But I know we're judged collectively. And so I tend to have higher standards for black women in regards to what I perceive as "self respect."


There's a website called hotghettomess.com full of black women (and men) doing things that wouldn't bother me if they were white. And have you noticed how under any news story, YouTube video, blog post whatever about a black person, someone says something along the lines of "tsk tsk tsk black people!"

Although I see the reverse a little more now where someone hurts themselves doing something stupid and someone simply replies "white people."

Maze Runner
08-15-2012, 03:46 AM
The first thought I had on April 19, 1995, was 'I hope they ain't Arabs!' That was the date of the Oklahoma City bombing, and I'm half Lebanese. On September 11, 2001 it was a different story. I've never even been to the Middle East, and the fact that one of my cousins from the Italian side of my family was killed in the second tower made no difference. I still felt shame.

I agree, this is a very interesting thread.

aruna
08-15-2012, 08:45 AM
Living in Germany, I have a lot of such moments. Blacks are a small minority here and struggling to get past the stereotype of poor refugees from Africa.

djrashn
08-16-2012, 09:40 PM
This is a very interesting thread, and I can definitely relate. I read the news online everyday and any headline that has "killed" in it makes me click it to see if they describe the perpetrator.
My kids have collectively shook their heads at me many times because I screamed out in relief..."YES! They weren't black!"
When I was younger I decided that if someone lumped me in with all of the "bad ones" that it was their problem. They were racist. They were stereotyping me. Their bad.
Now that I'm older, it seems that actually it is my problem. It is my childrens inherited problem. It's one more obstacle that can't be overcome.
Somehow I hear it everyday and it never matters how many negative acts the white race commits, because if one black person does it, we're all guilty, and it's used as "evidence" to prove once again that we're a lesser race.

djrashn
08-16-2012, 10:12 PM
Nighttimer thanks for that Chris Rock link. Haven't seen that in years, and it still brings tears to my eyes. Too funny, too sad, too true.

aruna
08-17-2012, 05:48 PM
More like one of those "I wish the Daily Fail wouldn't post this kind of shit" moments.

Britain's Stupidest Criminal? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2189686/Teenage-thief-caught-stealing-pretend-mobile-phones-shop-ransacking-flat-police-rigged-CCTV.html)

djrashn
08-18-2012, 08:54 PM
I do wish they wouldn't post that stuff, but I wish even more that people would stop doing it.

crunchyblanket
08-19-2012, 01:57 PM
And when the Gypsies came...hoo boy howdy...

What did the Gypsies do?

aruna
10-06-2013, 07:49 AM
I having one of these (ongoing) moments due to this motorcyclist gang attack SUV story. Why oh why. To make matters worse (for me) is that the chief suspect is apparently from Guyana. I'm groaning down to my bones.

And since this is an old, old thread I'm going to repeat what nighttimer said in the first post:



I tell myself nobody is responsible for the bad actors who shame themselves and by extension shame their entire race. I know in my rational and logical mind there is no reason to think this way. No one, no matter how noble or evil or foolish represents or reflects on every other member of a racial or ethnic group.

The journalist Carl T. Rowan sagely observed, A minority group has "arrived" only when it has the right to produce some fools and scoundrels without the entire group paying for it.

Logically, sure, I know this to be true, but the failures of Black people are so often shoved under my nose, I find myself actively craving and seeking the success stories just to remind myself we're ALL not thugs, criminals, psychos and human garbage.

The Black race has produced philosophers, healers, entertainers, scientists, politicians, athletes and other men and women of distinction that have made the world a better place.

It needs more like Celina Hollis and a lot less like Rollen Oliver.

I shouldn't feel embarrassed for every Black person, but when I know how this kind of tragedy will be seen (and spun) as Blacks killing, Blacks being violent, Blacks doing stupid shit, Blacks proving every horrible stereotype about us is true, I do feel embarrassed for every Black person who doesn't kill, who isn't violent, who do smart stuff and prove every horrible stereotype about us is false. my bold.

I feel embarrassment not only for blacks but for Guyanese. We are such a small country but it seems whenever the outside world becomes aware of us it's just for bad, bad things; Jonestown, and now this (OK, this isn't much and Jonestown wasn't our fault but it did make negative headlines for Guyana.)

Wilde_at_heart
10-20-2013, 06:49 AM
I having one of these (ongoing) moments due to this motorcyclist gang attack SUV story. Why oh why. To make matters worse (for me) is that the chief suspect is apparently from Guyana. I'm groaning down to my bones.

And since this is an old, old thread I'm going to repeat what nighttimer said in the first post:

my bold.

I feel embarrassment not only for blacks but for Guyanese. We are such a small country but it seems whenever the outside world becomes aware of us it's just for bad, bad things; Jonestown, and now this (OK, this isn't much and Jonestown wasn't our fault but it did make negative headlines for Guyana.)

My family were in the process of moving to Guyana when headlines broke about Jonestown. Most people afaik know they were Americans, at least, but yeah, it's unfortunately what Guyana is 'on the map' for...

Part of the problem though, is the media's fixation on relatively random, violent crimes 'as crime', ignoring of course the social problems behind a lot of them, but also other forms of crime that cost 'society' a hell of a lot more ruin people's lives just as often and so on but because 'white collar' crime is often less directly related to the victim it gets downplayed most of the time.
If higher-level fraud and corruption were even prosecuted, never mind covered by the media nearly as obsessively as stabbings and liquor store hold-ups people's perceptions could very well be quite different.
Let me put it this way - the Financial Crisis of 2008 - which was the end result of cumulative illegal or unethical practices of thousands and thousands of culprits and how many arrests were there? Anyone besides Bernie Madoff in something that is still costing taxpayers billions to this day?

Roxxsmom
11-13-2013, 10:58 AM
After all, do White people ever feel a sense of collective guilt that Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer and Jerry Sandusky are White? No such shame in their game.



I feel shame about these people, and am painfully aware of the fact that most serial killers and mass shooters seem to be white. I'm also embarrassed by the large number of people of my race who seem to be unapologetic bigots and listen to AM talk radio (including a member of my own family).

And it infuriates me that some of my fellow white people can say that it's okay to profile Muslim men and don't see that this is the same as saying that white men, or Catholics, should be profiled because Timothy McVeigh was these things.

I think, though, that the issue is less prevalent for white people because of the privilege one has as the historically empowered and normalized group in our society--publicized crimes are not automatically perceived as typical behavior for the group.

Lavern08
11-13-2013, 10:15 PM
... I think, though, that the issue is less prevalent for white people because of the privilege one has as the historically empowered and normalized group in our society--publicized crimes are not automatically perceived as typical behavior for the group.

:Clap:

tatygirl90
12-22-2013, 09:01 AM
I have those feelings and I struggle with them. But I guess because crimes committed by Black people are magnified while crimes committed by whites don't get as much attention as the Black ones.

Bad thinking but I can understand it.

Kim Fierce
12-24-2013, 12:57 AM
I know some people who posted on Facebook about crimes committed, for example while Trayvon Martin was going on they were like, "Oh, so you're upset about Martin, but I think Zimmerman is innocent and here's a crime I found committed by black people against white people but no one is talking about it! Hear me declare my self-righteous outrage!" It was insane. But the thing is also, the crimes they were talking about were those which the guilty party was clearly evident and the person had been prosecuted. End of story, and yes it had been reported, but no the families/other people involved weren't spreading the story around apparently because the sentence had already been carried out maybe? Zimmerman/Martin was an incident where they claimed they needed to find evidence of guilt (and failed miserably IMO.) So people like to compare apples to oranges a lot as well.

On the other side, is the sickening story of the rich white teenage boy who gets probation for killing 4 people while driving drunk because of "affluenza." I had never heard of that word before and learned that apparently it means this kid was raised so privileged and rich that he had no idea of the consequences of his actions! How sickening. But the families of the people he killed/injured have now all sued him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/ethan-couch-affluenza-lawsuits-car-crash-texas_n_4461585.html

escritora
12-24-2013, 02:01 AM
How sickening. But the families of the people he killed/injured have now all sued him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4461585.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/ethan-couch-affluenza-lawsuits-car-crash-texas_n_4461585.html)

Is it possible to sue a 16 year old? Or are his parents and the father's company on the hook?

Kim Fierce
12-24-2013, 02:10 AM
Now that I don't know . . . maybe even in this case he isn't paying.

Midian
01-03-2014, 06:31 AM
I hadn't been following and didn't know about the "affluenza" defense. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. I'm floored. I actually had to read a legal explanation (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/06/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse-but-it-is-reality)just to figure out how it could ever happen. Even after reading that, still...how does a jury or judge even buy into it? They too must be suffering from affluenza. As if saying no to drinking and drugs aren't drilled into kids from preschool, along with all of the consequences.

Talk about being ashamed to be human.

rwm4768
01-06-2014, 01:42 AM
I think whether you feel ashamed by actions of a member of your race depends on how you view yourself. Due to being minorities, many people who are black, Hispanic, Chinese, etc. have greater identification with their race. As for me, I've never really thought of myself as white. I'm more likely to be ashamed for the human race in general.

I can think of some other things that bother me, though. As a Christian, I get a feeling like this when I see other Christians who are being hateful and bigoted. It's the whole guilt-by-association thing. If you consider yourself, even loosely, to be part of a certain group, you are more likely to be ashamed when someone else in that group does something terrible.

For another example, I'm half German (my dad was actually born in Nazi-occupied Poland), so there's a part of me that feels ashamed that there were people like Hitler and the Nazis.

Of course, the biggest thing that perpetuates these problems is the news. On the local news here in St. Louis, you spend the first five minutes hearing about all the murders, thefts, and other crimes committed (mostly) by black people. For people that don't see many black people regularly, this is the primary image of black people they see. Then, whether they intend to be racist or not, they end up feeling anxious around black people because of the portrayal in the news.