Too much focus on query letters?

MDSchafer · Jun 20, 2012

I've got two schools of thought about this. One is that agents are reading query letters on mobile devices, and so they might tend to read less of a query letter. At that same time however, most agents I've found in my research are asking for a synopsis and a 5 to 50 page sample as part of their guidelines.

I'm wondering if they're basically asking for partials because so many people spend so much time revising and crafting a query letter that you can really hide a dog manuscript with a good query letter. Maybe asking for a partial and a synopsis cuts down on the number of submissions they receive?

So I've started thinking about my own novel and how my query letter has probably gone through forty drafts or so while my manuscript has only been revised three times. I wonder if we "Pre-published" authors should revise our manuscripts more and polish the query less? With so many agents effectively asking for partials as part of their submission process the chances are better at least your first couple of paragraphs will get read. I'd bet a passable query will get the agent to look at the first page of your book, and I'd say the first 250 words of your book stand a better chance of selling your manuscript than the 250 words of your query.

Any thoughts? Or maybe it's just that I'm researching YA agents, and it could just be that agents who represent that particular genre that makes de facto partial requests.

blacbird · Jun 20, 2012

The entire query "process" completely baffles me. I understand quantum physics better.

caw

Toothpaste · Jun 20, 2012

Why not polish both?

SomethingOrOther · Jun 20, 2012

Toothpaste said:
Why not polish both?

The same reason as with the false dichotomy threads. If you polish one, while you're sleeping gnomes will descend from the ceiling and mess up the other. Like, duh.

Becky Black · Jun 21, 2012

The advice I hear most often is that many people try too hard with their query and agents and editors really only want something short and simple. Of course, short and simple - but still enticing - can be the most difficult thing to achieve.

I agree that in the end it's the novel not the query letter (or the synopsis that sells the novel.) But those things have the power to turn the editor or agent off the novel, make them not read it, so they are important too.

I think if you're not sure you can pull off clever or witty in your query letter (and many people can't even if they can do so in their book) then stick with keeping it simple and straightforward. Avoid the common errors that will turn the agent or editor off reading the partial or full, and let the book speak for itself.

Excessive query polishing can be a form of submission avoidance. Just one more day before inviting people to cruelly dash your dreams...

Calla Lily · Jun 21, 2012

It's the current state of the business. We all have to work within it if we want the agent-trade publishing contract route. If it were easy, the prize would not be as sweet.

jclarkdawe · Jun 21, 2012

MDSchafer said:
I'm wondering if they're basically asking for partials because so many people spend so much time revising and crafting a query letter that you can really hide a dog manuscript with a good query letter.

And services such as QLH, as well as services that will actually write your query, all add to the problem.

MDSchafer said:
Maybe asking for a partial and a synopsis cuts down on the number of submissions they receive?

I doubt it.

MDSchafer said:
I wonder if we "Pre-published" authors should revise our manuscripts more and polish the query less?

It amazes me the number of people who arrive in QLH saying 'I've got X number of responses from my query, but agents are rejecting my manuscript, therefore I'm going to work on my query.' They've got the equation ass backwards.

Queries are easily fixed, and present a finite problem. A manuscript is not easily fixed and is an infinite problem. People gravitate to easy problems rather then dealing with complex and hard problems. And services such as QLH can give you one-on-one support to dealing with your query problems. Result is way too many people dwell on the query.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

lorna_w · Jun 21, 2012

Puma · Jun 21, 2012

Very good thread topic, MDSchafer. Becky and Jim have pretty much hit my thoughts.

As long as we continue to have new writers, we're going to continue to have - I just finished my manuscript (first draft), and no one's taken it yet. People don't realize how much re-work and polish goes in to a final manuscript - the one that should be ready before the query. Puma

quicklime · Jun 21, 2012

MDSchafer said:
I've got two schools of thought about this. One is that agents are reading query letters on mobile devices, and so they might tend to read less of a query letter. At that same time however, most agents I've found in my research are asking for a synopsis and a 5 to 50 page sample as part of their guidelines.

I'm wondering if they're basically asking for partials because so many people spend so much time revising and crafting a query letter that you can really hide a dog manuscript with a good query letter. to the best of my knowledge they were asking for a first five pages or so ten years back, or longer....if anything, I'm thinking as e-mail became more commonplace they were willing to ask for more sample pages because if they said "this is shit" three pages in, it wasn't five bucks wasted at Kinkos for some hopeful writer. e-mail costs nothing to them or the submitter, so they can ask for more and read or not read, but I doubt it was because queries are super-evolving and they need a new triage system that involves reading more.

Now, can a really good query letter go with a really bad manuscript? Of course. But I don't believe that is any more or less plausible today than it was in the past.

Maybe asking for a partial and a synopsis cuts down on the number of submissions they receive? I doubt it, but it lets them get everything at once, and it takes just as long to delete if you stop at the query letter--but it doesn't take an extra step of having to go back and ask for that synopsis or partial, so that DOES save them time

So I've started thinking about my own novel and how my query letter has probably gone through forty drafts or so while my manuscript has only been revised three times. I wonder if we "Pre-published" authors should revise our manuscripts more and polish the query less? I think this is a false dichotomy...many people should absolutely polish their manuscript more (certainly not everyone though, some are to the point of negative returns) but that doesn't mean to polish the query less.

With so many agents effectively asking for partials as part of their submission process the chances are better at least your first couple of paragraphs will get read.why? who says that translates to anything more than "as long as e-mail is free and you're sending anyway, send a partial too...."? I'd bet a passable query will get the agent to look at the first page of your book, and I'd say the first 250 words of your book stand a better chance of selling your manuscript than the 250 words of your query. I'd bet otherwise. Heavily. Because a mediocre query severely diminishes the odds of them seeing your first 250 words of story.

Any thoughts? Or maybe it's just that I'm researching YA agents, and it could just be that agents who represent that particular genre that makes de facto partial requests.

again, I doubt the partial request increase in any way equals more partials read. just my opinion.

as for queries getting "undue" attention, I think if anything, as jim mentioned, it is that novels see less of the attention they should. But I wouldn't say queries get too much. The query is the initial pitch and first impression; if you were to look at this like applying for a job (which it sort of is) the query is a bit like the resume. The partial is a follow-up interview. In "that world" would you say resumes are less important than the interview, or that you better excel at both?

FabricatedParadise · Jun 21, 2012

Personally, a lot of the query letters I receive at Entranced could use a bit more polish. Some of these not-so-great queries have had stellar MSs attached. Yes a truly bad query can reflect poorly on your MS, but the only "truly bad" queries are usually attached to manuscripts that need a lot more polish/ have formatting issues/ etc. Meaning, the poorly crafted queries usually come from authors who haven't done their homework.

The query just gives our editors a starting point, an idea of what an MS is about. The opening pages of the work tell us if an MS is in submission condition -- and yes, we really can tell from just the first few pages.

FabricatedParadise · Jun 21, 2012

quicklime said:
The query is the initial pitch and first impression; if you were to look at this like applying for a job (which it sort of is) the query is a bit like the resume. The partial is a follow-up interview. In "that world" would you say resumes are less important than the interview, or that you better excel at both?

Yep. This.

MDSchafer · Jun 21, 2012

SomethingOrOther said:
The same reason as with the false dichotomy threads. If you polish one, while you're sleeping gnomes will descend from the ceiling and mess up the other. Like, duh.

Some of us do have a finite amount of time to work on these things. Like most writers I know I'm working full time, additionally I run a small nonprofit and go to nursing school. There isn't enough time in a day, or a week, to focus on everything I want to. I only have so much time to revise anything I write. Like a lot of people I'm not certain how much revision you need before a work of fiction sounds professional and its dawned on me that I've proportionally put more time into the query than the first 20 pages of the MS.

What I'm concerned of is that maybe I am, and others are, putting their time into the wrong thing. One of my friends, who got a publishing a deal without an agent, is of the mind that your query needs to sing because agents read queries on their cellphones these days, and so if the first inch or so of text doesn't grab them they stop reading. What I'm wondering, and what Fabricated Paradise seems to be inferring, is that if your query is just serviceable the first couple of paragraphs will still get read.

Calla Lily · Jun 21, 2012

MDSchafer, this is going to sound harsh.

If your current RL commitments are such that you don't have enough time to polish and revise the Q and ms properly, then perhaps put them aside for now. I've worked FT since HS, and I put my writing aside altogether when the kids were little.

Right now I work FT, run the house, and do freelance copyediting on the side. I choose to give up other activities to focus on my writing. This is a business proposition for me: I want to sell books, so I'll do what I need to do to achieve that.

Perhaps when you've gotten your degree, you'll be able to use that time to revise the book.

Or, if this post has made you think, No, dammit! I will achieve this now! Then mapping out your day will show you the spaces where writing will fit in. When the kids were in grade school, I used "found time" to write and edit. Waiting at soccer practice, at the doctor's office, while cooking dinner. Things like that. Those 15-20 minute blocks of time forced me to be productive and efficient.

Good luck.

Polenth · Jun 21, 2012

MDSchafer said:
Some of us do have a finite amount of time to work on these things. Like most writers I know I'm working full time, additionally I run a small nonprofit and go to nursing school. There isn't enough time in a day, or a week, to focus on everything I want to. I only have so much time to revise anything I write.

If you have time to edit your novel, you have time to edit your query. The query letter is only a page, so doesn't need the same amount of time for a complete edit as a novel. You won't save a novel-worth of editing time by skipping the query.

Toothpaste · Jun 21, 2012

There might be a finite amount of time in the day to do everything you want to do, but there isn't a finite amount of time to work on your novel and query (okay technically there is, we don't live forever, but you know what I mean). So you only have one hour a day to work on your writing. What's the rush? Why not take as much time as it takes to edit both? Why not work on your MS until you feel it is the strongest representation of what you can do? And why not work on a query until you feel it best represents that work?

So maybe you might have to start the submission process a month, two months, a year later than you would like, but so what? Where's the rush?

veinglory · Jun 21, 2012

I can't imagine a scenario where having a not very good query would be an advantage over having a good one.

quicklime · Jun 21, 2012

MDSchafer said:
Some of us do have a finite amount of time to work on these things. Like most writers I know I'm working full time, additionally I run a small nonprofit and go to nursing school. There isn't enough time in a day, or a week, to focus on everything I want to. I only have so much time to revise anything I write. Like a lot of people I'm not certain how much revision you need before a work of fiction sounds professional and its dawned on me that I've proportionally put more time into the query than the first 20 pages of the MS.

1. anything, ANYTHING, gets revised until the revisions are only lateral moves. Then it stops, because lateral is a waste of time and the next step is revising to the work's actual detriment. This goes for the query, AND the MS. that is all, and it really is that simple. again, this IS a false dichotomy--the question you apparently SHOULD be asking is is your MS needs more time/work, not if your query needs less.

2. We all have finite time. Maybe that means you are gonna write half as many novels a year as you hoped. Maybe it means you need to find more time. but we ALL have a finite amount of time--if you're weighing the relative merits of this as an excuse, imagine sending a letter TO the agent, explaining your situation: I hope you understand, I have finite time, so I did my best to make a truly stellar book, but fully realize the query is sub-par; I was busy." Yeah, that sounds bad--do you have a better way you'd phrase it, ro do all arguments pretty much end at the same place? Because I'm thinking they all come off bad.

What I'm concerned of is that maybe I am, and others are, putting their time into the wrong thing. One of my friends, who got a publishing a deal without an agent, is of the mind that your query needs to sing because agents read queries on their cellphones these days, and so if the first inch or so of text doesn't grab them they stop reading. while i may not fully agree with his reasoning, I am considerably closer to your friend, I guess....What I'm wondering, and what Fabricated Paradise seems to be inferring, is that if your query is just serviceable the first couple of paragraphs will still get read. i think you may be reading a bit more into fabricated's post than they offered; I would very much like to hear a bit of assent or dissent on her part. [/QUOTE]

how, exactly, is "I do not have time to write a good query" a fundamentally different argument than "I do not have enough time to write"? Because the latter question seems to have a universal answer of "you make the time," so I'm not sure why queries are not the same. A mediocre query MAY still get a few pages read, but you're counting heavily on agent goodwill--unless you're gonna time your query to arrive the same day as you sent an anonymous hookergram, the day they win the lotto, the day you send anonymous chocolates, etc., you're leaving a lot that you can actually control to random chance. So, again, just fix the damn query. And if you feel you're spending too much time on the query, either you're just taking a while learning how to write one, or it may be a sign you need to spend more time on the MS. But in either case, I just don't see any reason this justifies less care going into the very first impression you will ever make with a given agent.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 21, 2012

Often people treat the query as some sort of magical thing that will sell a novel. It's not. The ONLY purpose of a query is to get a request for a partial or full. That's it. Only the manuscript sells the manuscript.

But it's not a matter of one thing being important while the other is not. There is so much competition out there now that you have to do everything well: writing, querying, pitching, making good business decisions -- everything.

Filigree · Jun 21, 2012

Agreed. You need a good query letter. But the mms needs to be as polished as possible first. It certainly helps with writing the query.

I queried two very different novels over the last two years. The first was a huge fantasy novel that I'd worked on intermittently for ten years, the second a shorter erotic fantasy that I wrote in three months.

I had a hard time writing queries for novel #1: it was too big, too confusing, and certain aspects of it seemed to scare agents. Out of approx. 68 varied query letters, only two got me partial requests for the first 50 pages. Those partials resulted in cordial personalized rejections and requests for my next project. When the full mms went to a major publisher's in-house writing contest, a senior editor gave the mms third place out of 700 entries and some great reviews. A partial of the mms also got critical mention in another big writing contest. None of this led to any offers. I realized I needed to heavily revise the novel for length and clarity. I have an agent willing to look at it now, but it has to be much stronger than my previous versions. The agent will need a decent hook to use as pitch material, but I'm not going to kill myself over the query.

For the erotic novel, I started writing with a short hook that informed the story's pace and style. That hook eventually became a query letter that got me two offers out of seven publishers queried, far better results than my first query battle.

So I'd say be thinking about your query while you're writing - but make certain the writing is great.

veinglory · Jun 21, 2012

IMHO you are only working too hard at anything when you make it as good as it needs to be and don't stop.

Filigree · Jun 21, 2012

I think for me, I needed the learning curve between the two books. Now that I know I *can* write a decent query letter, I have the courage to forge ahead with new ones.

This is my worry about query letter services (not QLH, but other places): sometimes the responses come from well-meaning folks who simply don't read in that query's genre. If I'm researching agents and editors for good genre matches, why should I give more weight to a critique from readers who are not just as familiar with my genre? At best, their critique can give me some general guidance. At worst, it can tie me in knots trying to explain basic sf&f tropes.

quicklime · Jun 21, 2012

Filigree said:
...

This is my worry about query letter services (not QLH, but other places): sometimes the responses come from well-meaning folks who simply don't read in that query's genre. If I'm researching agents and editors for good genre matches, why should I give more weight to a critique from readers who are not just as familiar with my genre? At best, their critique can give me some general guidance. At worst, it can tie me in knots trying to explain basic sf&f tropes.

hmmm, the learning curve thing is huge.

as for the rest, you CAN get that here too (poor advice, and/or tied in knots explaining)....part of the "fun" in getting advice is learning who to buy into and who is full of shit, and when. There's no getting around that, although I happen to be a huge fan of QLH and think the folks there really ARE a cut above. There's folks there I'd give a kidney to just to have them write for me.

that said, I'm not so sure how important genre is. I've helped folks with queries in fantasy and mainstream and horror, the rules are all at least 90% the same, and so are the mistakes....you just have to not get derailed on explaining details like you mention above.

Filigree · Jun 21, 2012

One of the problems I had was balancing 'too much detail' critiques with 'too vague and bland' critiques. This was just on that first query letter, mind you.

By the second one, I was more comfortable. Nor did I shop the final version of the second mms query to the general QLH board. I figured the graphic adult content even in the query would be too much for the open forum.

I'd say genre matters, if only for reader expectation.

Little Ming · Jun 21, 2012

Continuing the "false dichotomy" discussion: Queries and the works they represent are not mutually exclusive. There was a discussion in QLH a few weeks ago about the problems in the query can be reflective of problems in the novel. There's a reason agents want a query letter, because first impressions matter, and sometimes you really can see the problems of the MS from the problems in the query. Sometimes finding problems in one, helps you see the problems in the other.

You'd surprised how many people in QLH have problems with the Three Questions. What is the main conflict? Who is the MC? How do you write with voice? How do you make your MC active? What genre is this? How much is too much backstory? Is there a pacing problem with the plot? Why are the characters acting inconsistently? These questions should be clear by the time you get to the submission stage, and yet, some people are still having problems with it. Sometimes it really is just the query. Other times it's represents a bigger problem with the MS.

I agree with Jim. The query is the easy fix, that's why people get stuck on it. It's much easier to fix the 250 words query than it is to tackle the 75,000-word MS. And it's easy to blame the query. After all, if you're being rejected before the agent even reads that MS, then it must be the query's fault. Except, sometimes it's not.

***

As for bad advice... it happens. Even in QLH.

And sometimes you get a lot of "good advice," but the advice is conflicting. Some critters suggest doing ABC, others are saying XYZ. Both sides are right, both suggestions will make your query better, but they are conflicting suggestions. That's when you need to take time out, step away from the query and novel to give it time to process before you make changes. You need to be able to pick out what advice will make your query better, and which doesn't fit. And that's why you need to be patient in this business.

Some of the worse queries I've read are the ones that get revised only hours after the first draft has been put up, and then get revised again and again in short intervals. The writer is not thinking it through and is only making changes at the superficial level. By the end the query is clunky, choppy and sometimes even incoherent.

Too much focus on query letters?

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