Need Some Reassurance

Ohgodaspider · Jun 9, 2012

I'm not sure where this post should go, but I figure this might be the appropriate section. If its not, then I apologize. Here goes nothing.

I joined here probably a week or so ago on the advice of a friend of mine. I've submitted two pieces of work, 1 of them 1.9k words, the other around 500-600. I've gotten 1 or 2 good critiques, but the rest have just been dare i say...shamelessly critical. I don't mean like "i didn't care for it. it was childish." I mean like "There were 6 punctuation errors in the first two sentences, I can't even read half way through." Followed by failing to specify what was wrong with the piece (other than punctuation.)

I need some reassurance to not give up on my writing, and some reassurance that not everyone here is a self aggrandizing charlatan. (I love that term).

Thanks Guys!

Topaz044 · Jun 9, 2012

Hello Ogodaspider,

Absolutewrite has a reputation somewhat for having harsh critics on-line. If it makes you feel better, I have a couple of books published and I still fully expect to be flayed alive whenever I submit my work here. But everytime it happens, I do usually learn something that helps my writing, which is the purpose here.

How much do you love your writing? Because if you believe your work is going to be a hot-seller and the best piece of fiction ever, then nothing anyone writes here should affect that opion. You will need that conviction from start to finish, and even after you publish a novel when the reviews start to come in. Does that mean your work is bad? No, because every single writer and successful novelist goes through it as well.

My advice is to take the critique as a learning experience, and if you do submit again you might want to read the guidelines first, which asks you to specify if you want a gentle critique or not.

rainsmom · Jun 9, 2012

I haven't read your work. I can just give general encouragement.

First, mechanics like spelling, punctuation, and grammar are part of being a writer. The good news is that those things are completely learnable. It may seem silly that your critiquers are focusing on those types of things instead of the story, but for many of us, those things distract so badly -- or simply make it so hard to decipher meaning -- that it isn't worth our (volunteered) time. Good news: Fixing those errors is completely doable.

Second, the helpfulness of the critiques will vary. Different people focus on different things. Different people have differing levels of skill. Different people also have differing levels of tact. Read them all. THANK the people who offered them, whether you found them all helpful or not. And then, after a few days, reread and see what's helpful. You may be surprised.

Also, just some general advice -- you'll get more crits if you yourself crit. (You may be doing that. There may be others reading who are in a similar situation, but who don't critique.)

Finally, one thing you'll likely never get here is "Good job! Love it! Wouldn't change a word! You're a master!" People here don't blow smoke. They critique with the purpose of making the writing better. If you, deep in your heart, really just want encouragement, then this is not the right place for you right now.

Oh -- one more thing. Critiques suck. Criticism stings. Critique partners will tear your work up. Betas will tear your work up. Agents will tear your work up. Editors will tear your work up. There will be LOTS of rejection every step of the way. If you don't want that, then admit it, and write for yourself. (That's not a crime!) If you want to be a pro writer, get used to it, and learn to take *and learn from* the criticism. The point, as I said above, is to make the writing better.

It's about the WRITING, not the WRITER.

Ohgodaspider · Jun 9, 2012

Absolutewrite has a reputation somewhat for having harsh critics on-line.

Okay, good. I wanted to make sure it wasn't because I had no skill.

Calla Lily · Jun 9, 2012

ohgodaspider, I've read through the crits for the pieces you posted in SYW.

Trust me when I say that they are far from harsh. They are honest. Would you rather hear that things aren't working here, from other writers in a closed forum--or would you rather stare at a stack of form Rs from agents?

The people in SYW are here to help. They take time from their own writing and their non-writing lives to help fellow writers. We're all trying to succeed at the same thing--a book with our names on it on bookshelves, e and/or brick-and-mortar.

If you disagree with a crit, the only proper response is "Thanks for taking thetime to crit." Period. You don't have to agree with all of part of the crit. I've had my work shredded into quivering pieces in SYW, and after several deep breaths, I saw the difiiculties the critters were pointing out.

I state with confidence that my road to publicatino would have been a LOT longer without AW and SYW.

Perhaps you're not ready to hear crits of your work. Perhaps you still look on it as your baby rather than a business document that must be editerd and rewritten and re-edited till it succeeds in its purpose. (That purpose being good enough to part total strangers from their money.

) That's fine. SYW will be here when you're ready for the next level of work.

But calling fellow writers--who are here trying to help another writer--"self-aggrandizing charlatans"? That makes it certain that I won't be using my limited crit time on your work. Good luck.

Ohgodaspider · Jun 9, 2012

I'm glad to see moderators here are so professional.

Bailey_Montagne · Jun 9, 2012

Sometimes you have to pull back and just practice more before asking for people to give you critiques.

I got to a point of being very discouraged with my stories, where I wanted to give up. I ended up spending a lot of time writing fanfiction before I felt ready to put my other work out there again. And you know what? I'm a better writer for all the practice and encouragement I got there.

There are many paths to learning to write. All of them involve practice--not all of them involve getting harsh critiques before you're ready.

*fistbump* Stick with it!

Susan Coffin · Jun 9, 2012

Ohgodaspider,

Welcome.

I need some reassurance to not give up on my writing, and some reassurance that not everyone here is a self aggrandizing charlatan. (I love that term).

So not nice, and the best way to push away the kind AW people.

That said, it sounds to me like you received some valuable feedback. Keep an English manual next to you when you write. Learn the rules of of punctuation and grammar. Start at day one and read Learn Writing with Uncle Jim. Volume II is just as great. Study writing voraciously by reading anything you can get your hands on, including novels, short stories, and non-fiction. Doesn't matter what it is, read it.

Anytime you choose to put your work out there, hope that you get back some criticism that will help you learn about the strengths and weaknesses of your writing. In fact, red marks on your manuscript are a good thing. If all you get is fluffy smiley-face "Oh for goodness sake, I love it", you need to look for a different critique partner and/or group.

Finally, just keep practicing your writing. You can learn the skills you need to write your very best.

Best of luck!

cmi0616 · Jun 9, 2012

Topaz044 said:
How much do you love your writing? Because if you believe your work is going to be a hot-seller and the best piece of fiction ever, then nothing anyone writes here should affect that opion. You will need that conviction from start to finish, and even after you publish a novel when the reviews start to come in. Does that mean your work is bad? No, because every single writer and successful novelist goes through it as well.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say this, because I personally believe that self-doubt is a large and natural part of the process for any writer. I think writing, which is ultimately a very rewarding and enjoyable task, can also prove very frustrating a lot of times. It is perfectly normal for you to doubt yourself and your work in the way that you do, and what you need to do is just push on through. I wish there was better advice, I wish that there was more to it than that, but I don't believe there is. Just hold firm to whatever belief you do have in yourself, and push on through.

Also, if you are going to post works on the internet, for the entire world to see, then perhaps you should proof-read and do a bit of self-editing first. I know it's tempting to get feedback the minute you finish something, believe me, I've been guilty of it a few times before, but just keep in mind that the critiques might be less harsh if you did polish it a bit first. You said people were citing a lot of grammatical problems in your work, and while that does not validate their overly harsh criticism, it does mean that you are not representing your full potential as a writer to them. We want to read and critique you at your best, not after your first draft of a piece.

Hope this was helpful, and good luck

buz · Jun 9, 2012

When you first open your writing up to critique, it sucks. It's hard. But it's supposed to be hard and it's supposed to suck. Learning anything new is the same, unless you are a supa-talented genius at the thing, which few of us are. If people tell you everything you did was awesome, that's not helpful. It's like when you have a wound that has scabbed over with some sort of nasty putrid foreign material still inside. You have to rip open the wound and scrub all that foreign stuff out and drain the pus, and that hurts and it's disgusting, but afterwards you don't have a pus-encrusted gangrenous appendage.

However, honestly, the attitude I saw on SYW was a little like punching the doctor for touching it. I almost deleted my crit after I saw the comments that had appeared while I was creating it. Then I decided that you probably just lashed out because this is new to you and it stings and it sucks and you haven't gotten used to it yet, and hey, we all say stuff we regret. (Also, it's not like my critiques are frickin' gold.) However, I would wager that the behavior you displayed will turn away potential critiquers of your work. And from this, you lose out. Significantly.

People are not there to make you feel good about your writing. They are there to make it good. They are there to try to make you genuinely successful in your writing. This involves shredding, bloodletting, and all manner of other hyperbolic beating sorts of words. Not all of it is great or spot-on, and you are absolutely free to ignore anything you want, but all of it is given in the spirit of helping a fellow writer, and should be received as such.

It's okay and normal to be pissed off or shaken at first--in private, behind your screen, where your cries of hatred remain silent to the world

. But it's not cool to crap all over the people trying to help you. None of those people were self-aggrandizing charlatans. They were people with more experience who offered you sound advice. Every single one. Even the one who just said "slow down". Even the one who said "I couldn't read this because of punctuation errors." Maybe not the one who said "OH MY GOD IS THAT A SPIDER" but I'm sure that was said in jest.

In conclusion, getting critiques is difficult to sink into, and I think (hope) you just had an extreme reaction to the newness of it all, but it does get easier. And they are invaluable parts of the learning process.

Ohgodaspider · Jun 9, 2012

buzhidao said:
When you first open your writing up to critique, it sucks. It's hard. But it's supposed to be hard and it's supposed to suck. Learning anything new is the same, unless you are a supa-talented genius at the thing, which few of us are. If people tell you everything you did was awesome, that's not helpful. It's like when you have a wound that has scabbed over with some sort of nasty putrid foreign material still inside. You have to rip open the wound and scrub all that foreign stuff out and drain the pus, and that hurts and it's disgusting, but afterwards you don't have a pus-encrusted gangrenous appendage.

However, honestly, the attitude I saw on SYW was a little like punching the doctor for touching it. I almost deleted my crit after I saw the comments that had appeared while I was creating it. Then I decided that you probably just lashed out because this is new to you and it stings and it sucks and you haven't gotten used to it yet, and hey, we all say stuff we regret. (Also, it's not like my critiques are frickin' gold.) However, I would wager that the behavior you displayed will turn away potential critiquers of your work. And from this, you lose out. Significantly.

People are not there to make you feel good about your writing. They are there to make it good. They are there to try to make you genuinely successful in your writing. This involves shredding, bloodletting, and all manner of other hyperbolic beating sorts of words. Not all of it is great or spot-on, and you are absolutely free to ignore anything you want, but all of it is given in the spirit of helping a fellow writer, and should be received as such.

It's okay and normal to be pissed off or shaken at first--in private, behind your screen, where your cries of hatred remain silent to the world . But it's not cool to crap all over the people trying to help you. None of those people were self-aggrandizing charlatans. They were people with more experience who offered you sound advice. Every single one. Even the one who just said "slow down". Even the one who said "I couldn't read this because of punctuation errors." Maybe not the one who said "OH MY GOD IS THAT A SPIDER" but I'm sure that was said in jest.

In conclusion, getting critiques is difficult to sink into, and I think (hope) you just had an extreme reaction to the newness of it all, but it does get easier. And they are invaluable parts of the learning process.

Thank you for your honesty. I will be sure to keep that in mind.

leahzero · Jun 9, 2012

If you can't take people criticizing technical errors in your writing, you are not ready for critique. Pointing out errors in your writing is factual and objective. It's not personal. At all.

The fact that you're taking it personally and lashing out at people who spent their time trying to help you is highly off-putting. I certainly wouldn't waste my time on someone who only wants air blown in their ear, rather than constructive feedback and correction.

If all you want is encouragement, don't post in SYW. Post in Rejection & Dejection or one of the other non-critique forums.

SomethingOrOther · Jun 9, 2012

Ohgodaspider said:
I'm glad to see moderators here are so professional.

At some point, every writer experiences what you are experiencing right now. It's a very important--and painful--liminal stage all writers have to go through.

This is what happens:

You have a certain idea of your own skill level. You submit your work for critique, hoping to receive advice that will help you improve.

But the advice you receive operates on a much lower level than you expected. It covers things you thought you already understood.

Your idea of your own skill level is something you've built up over weeks or months. It's not going to change so quickly without a fight. But it's a lot easier to form new opinions about people who are still blank slates to you than it is to change your own opinions about yourself. So this happens:

Lots of shit.

But the shit will eventually be cleaned up. It might happen quickly--within a week--like if you got up and washed it all away with a powerful hose. Or it might happen slowly--over the course of a few months--like if you waited for a few rainstorms to pass by. And then you'll laugh and see that people weren't that wrong. It always happens that way.

But if you keep your defenses up and try to remain steadfast in believing everyone is a self-aggrandizing charlatan, it'll be like you erected a glass shell around that column, and neither rainfall nor hose-water nor the tsunamic swelling of the oceans will get through and the shit will never go away and any chance of success you have will say, "Man, something really smells," and leave and never return.

It's close to impossible to be successful without experiencing this at least once. You might experience it many times over the years. I have. It sucks. But the important thing is you're not being swarmed by a bunch of mean-asses who all have large canisters of spider spray, even though it might feel that way.

Williebee · Jun 9, 2012

In short, toughen up or take a hike. If you are really a writer, you'll do the former. I hope you do.

In SYW we pick the nits. Then we pick the nits that those nits carried in. When it's over, the only nits left are the ones you chose to leave in, the ones that represent your style, your point of view -- but not the grammar/punctuation/tense/head hopping/plot & logic hole nits. They are long gone. That means that, when you are ready and submitting for publication, you've got a fighting chance. An editor or agent won't have an easy reason to toss your work aside. They will have to either love your story or hate it. Either way, they'll respect the effort, and THAT is a win.

Take the criticism. Say thank you. Rip out the nits and bring it back until we can't help ourselves, we have to read it. That way lies success.

Good luck.

buz · Jun 9, 2012

SomethingOrOther said:
At some point, every writer experiences what you are experiencing right now. It's a very important--and painful--liminal stage all writers have to go through.

This is what happens...

(Can that whole post be stickied or in some other way immortalized...?)

Ohgodaspider · Jun 9, 2012

Williebee said:
In short, toughen up or take a hike. If you are really a writer, you'll do the former. I hope you do.

In SYW we pick the nits. Then we pick the nits that those nits carried in. When it's over, the only nits left are the ones you chose to leave in, the ones that represent your style, your point of view -- but not the grammar/punctuation/tense/head hopping/plot & logic hole nits. They are long gone. That means that, when you are ready and submitting for publication, you've got a fighting chance. An editor or agent won't have an easy reason to toss your work aside. They will have to either love your story or hate it. Either way, they'll respect the effort, and THAT is a win.

Take the criticism. Say thank you. Rip out the nits and bring it back until we can't help ourselves, we have to read it. That way lies success.

Good luck.

Thank you. I can feel it all ready.

justbishop · Jun 9, 2012

Reassurance, huh? Well, from one AW newb to another, I can tell you that my WIP (which is the first thing of any real length I've ever attempted to write) is indescribably better for the advice that I've been given in the YA SYW forum. Yes, it hurt to read a lot of the things that were posted, but I went into the experience knowing that no one here--or at least no one I've come across--was out to just tear me down for the sake of being nasty.

In other words, assume the best of people. Even if you're wrong about them, you'll probably find something in what they've said that can help you to improve yourself. Good luck

semmie · Jun 9, 2012

Ever boil a chicken?

Notice all the junk rises to the top? (Is it fat? I dunno. It's gross, is all I know.)

Yeah, it happens.

It's good.

Skim it off.

Keep writing.

ladyleeona · Jun 9, 2012

Ohgodaspider said:
I'm glad to see moderators here are so professional.

Calla is a professional. What was unprofessional was implying everyone you've come into contact with is/was a "self aggrandizing charlatan." Especially when they just spent time giving your work a critique. You know, when they could have gone outside and mowed the lawn instead.

Williebee said:
In short, toughen up or take a hike. If you are really a writer, you'll do the former. I hope you do.

In SYW we pick the nits. Then we pick the nits that those nits carried in. When it's over, the only nits left are the ones you chose to leave in, the ones that represent your style, your point of view -- but not the grammar/punctuation/tense/head hopping/plot & logic hole nits. They are long gone. That means that, when you are ready and submitting for publication, you've got a fighting chance. An editor or agent won't have an easy reason to toss your work aside. They will have to either love your story or hate it. Either way, they'll respect the effort, and THAT is a win.

Take the criticism. Say thank you. Rip out the nits and bring it back until we can't help ourselves, we have to read it. That way lies success.

Good luck.

Williebee's post is pure gold. Keep writing and learning from SYW. Then go and apply it to your work. Then come back and get beat black and blue for another issue that you didn't even know was an issue. Then fix that. Then come back. That's how improvement happens--little by little. Hang in there.

Punctuation errors bother some people so much they'll stop reading. (If they lay the blame on your punctuation, that's why they stopped reading.) That's their prerogative. It's a relatively free crit. All that's asked is you participate in the forums, and honestly, if you want to improve, that's not even a burden. There's tons of interesting stuff going on here.

Old Hack · Jun 9, 2012

It can be incredibly painful to receive criticism on your work. I think we all can agree on that one. And it's easier to blame the person who said the mean things about our work than it is to accept that our writing isn't as good as we thought it was. So how to gain the skill to revise our own work in a more painless way?

It's easy.

Help other writers improve their work.

Go to SYW and crit as many pieces of writing as you can. Do it thoughtfully and honestly, do it often, and do it a lot. Spend a month on this and then go back to your own work. You'll be surprised how much easier it is to revise it, and how much you know.

MacAllister · Jun 9, 2012

Old Hack said:
Go to SYW and crit as many pieces of writing as you can. Do it thoughtfully and honestly, do it often, and do it a lot. Spend a month on this and then go back to your own work. You'll be surprised how much easier it is to revise it, and how much you know.

This might be the best advice anyone could possibly give you, at this point.

Yes, it's hard to be critted.

It's even harder to figure out when a critter is right, and when a critter just has different tastes and sensibilities than your intended audience.

But ultimately, neither of those problems is really as big an issue as it seems like, early on -- and by the time you have the level of control to deal with crits in a healthy and professional manner, it's REALLY not that big of a deal.

Doing a whole bunch of critiques? That will help you (and almost anyone) more than pretty much anything else I can think of -- especially at the stage you're at right now. I'm always a little surprised, in fact, that we don't have tons more people critting than asking for critique -- because in general you'll learn more from critting than from being critted.

Theo81 · Jun 10, 2012

AW is not your bitch.

The Mods are volunteers.

We have our own projects to write, our households to run, our jobs to do, our families to care for.

We are *not* your bitch.

I get that it's frustrating for you - you don't want to have your grammar mistakes pointed out. I mean, hey, its boring, man. Who cares about grammar 'n stuff?

We do. Agents do. Publishers do.

The fact is, if you are seeking publication, punctuation is a deal breaker. Your story could be the Next Big Thing, but I'll never know that because "She poured over the photograph's." would be enough to know I'm not going to read it.

Go out and Crit. Re-earn some of the goodwill you've just set fire to. You may even learn something - who knows?

RobJ · Jun 10, 2012

Ohgodaspider said:
I need some reassurance to not give up on my writing

Give up if you want to. :Shrug:

James D. Macdonald · Jun 10, 2012

Theo81 said:
Who cares about grammar 'n stuff?

We do. Agents do. Publishers do.

The only reason that agents and publishers care is because readers care, and in publishing the reader is king.

semmie · Jun 10, 2012

MacAllister said:
This might be the best advice anyone could possibly give you, at this point.

Yep!

I knew when I joined AW that I was too thin-skinned to submit my work to anyone for honest critique. I knew that it would make me cry (I'm not even joking) and would reveal how much I had to learn (discouraging). I still haven't posted anything to be critiqued.

But I've critiqued a few things (reminder: I need to do more), and it has made me aware of some things I needed to change in my writing, things I needed to tighten up, things I'd been blundering altogether.

Lots of great responses in this thread, Spider. Count it a blessing.

Need Some Reassurance

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