Great authors and jobs?

Well China Mieville has a bibliography of over 30 works fiction and non-fiction and is an Associate Professor of Creative Writing at Warwick University.

From Warwick Uni's site:

He teaches on the Practice of Fiction module (EN236); and supervises students on the Creative Writing MA. He also teaches a non-credit course on early twentieth-century 'Weird Fiction', running in January and February every year.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/about/people/permanentacademicstaffstaff3/chinamieville/

I think the OP is asking about if it's possible to dedicate the time into writing that it takes to go from writing crap from writing well, if you have a major commitment.

The answer is yes.

You just need to dedicate hours to it, which will naturally involve sacrifices in other areas. But if you make them, your writing skills will improve.

Take Jennifer Echols, who had numerous books out while working as a copyeditor. She used to wake up early to work on copyediting so she could write during the day. (She also ran quite a few marathons as well.) It's only recently she's stopped copyediting.

Also, Maggie Stiefvater is a freelance artist on the side (or maybe it's 50/50, not sure).

The purpose of my question is to know whether there are people who have recently created artistic masterpieces -- define that as you will -- in the time remaining after demanding, unrelated jobs

Click to expand...

Yes, there are.

Charles Bukowski worked in a post office for a long time. Joshua Ferris wrote the award winning Then We Came To An End while working at an Ad agency. I believe Jonathan Franzen worked as an English professor at Swarthmore before publishing his first novel.

I don't think Scott Turow ever quit practicing law. I think Grisham did, but didn't he write his first novel on the train to and from work? (I get them mixed up; sorry.) Didn't Stephen King work through his first couple novels?

Many, many, many literary writers teach at MFA or English programs f-t. Most literary novels don't earn bupkis, so this isn't some brave choice, it's an "I'd like to eat more than once a day" choice. But even Toni Morrison kept her day job after Beloved was such a hit, I believe. I think Amy Bloom did work for awhile as a psychiatric social worker while writing award-winning short literary stories, but I also think she no longer does work a day job

Me.
And, you know, virtually every writer I know.

Most phantasmic writers write with a full-time job, if only to keep themselves involved in experiences that allow them to continue writing stories. It's rather anxiety inducing with all the dullness and ennui from sitting at home with your cat on your lap as you write.

willietheshakes said:

Me.
And, you know, virtually every writer I know.

Click to expand...

Yeah. This.

Unless the real question is 'what are my chances of really hitting the big time while working my ass off in a 40+ hour week' as a justification to quit said job.

theorange said:

Have there been any authors who have written extremely high quality, artistic books in the last 20 years who have done it while holding down full-time jobs? If so, who?

In particular, is there anyone who's written astonishing work while also holding down a job as a lawyer or a doctor or other typically high-working-hours professional?

Click to expand...

Yes. Great art doesn't pay the rent or put food on the table. Oh, it can eventually pay once it is sold, but while writing it, you have to live on something.

I'm also curious why you are asking this question. Are you looking for permission to quit your day job and have someone else support you?

theorange said:

If for example you look at some of the canonical novelists of the past century and a half: say, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Woolf, Proust, Faulkner, Nabokov, Joyce, Roth, Bellow, Atwood, McEwan and so on... these are not people who held down 40-hour+ a week jobs. Thomas Pynchon worked for 2 years for Boeing before his first novel, then quit. David Foster Wallace taught a bit. Academia/creative writing instruction/freelancing seem to be a bit more frequent, but standard 9-5 grinds seem to be rare.

Then there's another question of the differences between types of jobs. As cmi0616 pointed out above, Bukowski worked at a post office. TS Eliot worked as a banker (but his friends wanted him to quit...they worried it affected his art). Would any of them have worked as a surgeon, or done some other job that required 60-80 hour weeks -- and, even more than time, required their mental energy and occupied their mind?

Click to expand...

I admit to a bit of curiosity as well but probably on a more general scale. I'm always interested in writers who have gotten published and worked the 40+ hours weeks but not just in mental energy expenditure but in physical as well. Working 60-80 hours a week as a lawyer or a surgeon is grueling, no doubt, but so is factory work where you're on your feet all day. Or long-distance truck drivers. Delivery drivers. Or day care providers.

And if anyone thinks sitting behind a computer all day in a full-time job is a bed of roses. That can get taxing on a body, too.

Then there's those writers who do all that, then come home and see to the needs of their family before their own writing, as callalily61 above said. I mean, the laundry doesn't do itself, right? It's one thing to come home and have the spouse take care of all the familial needs so the writer can write after their grueling day. What about those who don't have that kind of support?

I understand your curiosity about this subject. I don't think that having a high-intensity career and being a writer are incompatible, as one can feed into the other.

That being said, we have to set aside the time to write. It might be harder to do as a surgeon, but we all lead complicated lives, right? We work a non-writing jobs, we write, we have hobbies and friends, and many of us (not me) are raising families.

No limits, just finding the right mix.

MFM

theorange said:

I'm also curious why you are asking this question.

Well, there are definitely personal career implications in this, but I'm also curious about the topic generally.

If for example you look at some of the canonical novelists of the past century and a half: say, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Woolf, Proust, Faulkner, Nabokov, Joyce, Roth, Bellow, Atwood, McEwan and so on... these are not people who held down 40-hour+ a week jobs. Thomas Pynchon worked for 2 years for Boeing before his first novel, then quit. David Foster Wallace taught a bit. Academia/creative writing instruction/freelancing seem to be a bit more frequent, but standard 9-5 grinds seem to be rare.

Then there's another question of the differences between types of jobs. As cmi0616 pointed out above, Bukowski worked at a post office. TS Eliot worked as a banker (but his friends wanted him to quit...they worried it affected his art). Would any of them have worked as a surgeon, or done some other job that required 60-80 hour weeks -- and, even more than time, required their mental energy and occupied their mind?

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician_writer

MyFirstMystery said:

That being said, we have to set aside the time to write. It might be harder to do as a surgeon, but we all lead complicated lives, right? We work a non-writing jobs, we write, we have hobbies and friends, and many of us (not me) are raising families.

Click to expand...

Yes, but that's not really what the OP is talking about.

Is it possible to write a novel while working a demanding, time/energy/whatever-intensive job? Of course.

But the OP is asking if it's possible to create art under such circumstances. High art, fine art, novels that endure, that become classics, etc. Art that is rich with meaning, allusion, symbolism, insight. Art that transforms and transcends.

And I think the answer to that is more complicated.

MyFirstMystery said:

I understand your curiosity about this subject. I don't think that having a high-intensity career and being a writer are incompatible, as one can feed into the other.

That being said, we have to set aside the time to write. It might be harder to do as a surgeon, but we all lead complicated lives, right? We work a non-writing jobs, we write, we have hobbies and friends, and many of us (not me) are raising families.

No limits, just finding the right mix.

MFM

Click to expand...

This. What works for one person may not work for another. Some people thrive in high-intensity careers and have great support at home, so it may be easier for them to write than, say, a person whose career drains them. As MFM said, it's all in finding the right mix.

leahzero said:

But the OP is asking if it's possible to create art under such circumstances. High art, fine art, novels that endure, that become classics, etc. Art that is rich with meaning, allusion, symbolism, insight. Art that transforms and transcends.

And I think the answer to that is more complicated.

Click to expand...

I think first we'd need to agree on what fits this description. Or at least come up with a list that we could possibly mostly agree on.

Then it's simply a matter of doing a little background research on the authors and getting a look at what they were doing when they wrote it.

people can, and do, multitask. it seems that is the base of your question, you're just asking a bit further: can people do it WELL?

Of course; some can, some cannot.

Are you a surgeon asking?

You say you deliberately leave the question vague and that is all good and well, but if you want real, specific answers, real, specific situations and/or limitations might be useful...i.e. beyond being vague, what are you really asking? because at the base, vague level, the vague answer is "yes."

yes.

standard 9-5 grinds seem to be rare.

Click to expand...

Excuse me while I giggle inanely (is it 95% of novelists that have to have a day job too? Pretty sure)

You aren't looking very hard


And last November my job went tits up. I was working 60-70 hours a week - and still managed to get 20k words in that month

I am I everyone? No.

But yes, it can be done. And has been done. Very very often.

But the OP is asking if it's possible to create art under such circumstances. High art, fine art, novels that endure, that become classics, etc.

Click to expand...

Oh dear - I feel a turn coming on. Fine art is in the beholding much like beauty.

Some of my fave novels were written while the author held down a full time job. ( so were many supposedly artful books)

What is a book? Is it art - does that 'art' make it better? Or is sheer pleasure in the reading of it a more worthy gauge?

Or is a book you can just lose yourself in worth more than any artistic intent?

Is it possible to create art with the same effort that is required to make a beach read? Depends on the writer - I suspect it comes easier for some than others. And I suspect that art is defined differently for different people.

Myself? I place pleasure in reading above art. I have to enjoy reading a book, and then I can reflect on its art. If the artful book bores me, I put it down. If the writing of the book was easy - does that make it less artful? If it was hard, does it make it more so? No. The end result is what matters. ALWAYS.

And pleasure (for me) > art.

Hmm. I may feel another post coming on.

theorange said:

I'm also curious why you are asking this question.

Well, there are definitely personal career implications in this, but I'm also curious about the topic generally.

If for example you look at some of the canonical novelists of the past century and a half: say, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Woolf, Proust, Faulkner, Nabokov, Joyce, Roth, Bellow, Atwood, McEwan and so on... these are not people who held down 40-hour+ a week jobs. Thomas Pynchon worked for 2 years for Boeing before his first novel, then quit. David Foster Wallace taught a bit. Academia/creative writing instruction/freelancing seem to be a bit more frequent, but standard 9-5 grinds seem to be rare.

Then there's another question of the differences between types of jobs. As cmi0616 pointed out above, Bukowski worked at a post office. TS Eliot worked as a banker (but his friends wanted him to quit...they worried it affected his art). Would any of them have worked as a surgeon, or done some other job that required 60-80 hour weeks -- and, even more than time, required their mental energy and occupied their mind?

Click to expand...

You do realize that a 9-5 job is not 60-80 hours a week. I really don't know that it's fair to compare writers from 100 or more years ago with today (Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky). Nabokov was a teach and only quit to write full time after Lolita brought him financial success. Proust was a wealthy dilettante and lived with his parents. Joyce was a teacher, banker and had numerous money making schemes, especially starting cinemas. It was late in his life when he received financial support from others to write full time. By then his health was failing and it took him years to finish anything. Saul Bellow wrote his first novel while in the merchant marines.

I guess my point in all that it's a false perspective to think that because these writers did not always have career while they creating that there was nothing to distract them from their art. They had wives, children, money woes, health concerns. They weren't living in an air-conditioned turret, untroubled by the concerns of those with jobs.

It is certainly possible to produce quality novels while working 50+ hours per week, at least for some people. It all depends on the person and the situation. And this includes time to strive to continually learn and improve in the craft, which is necessary to hit the quality marks some of us expect of ourselves.

As for the question of lasting artistic masterpieces, that's never for the writer to determine. Any new or developing writer, with no chops or evidence of honorable acceptance, who sees him/herself as able to sit down and produce a lasting masterpiece, has an ego that is lapping his/her accomplishments.