Being a Good Critter

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Bogna

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I'm going to going to my first Milford style conference in July and I was wondering what makes a good critique. I've never done any critiquing before and I want to make sure that I'm giving the best feedback that I can.

What do you find helpful/not helpful when receiving a critique? When you do a crit, how do you approach it and share it with the author?
 

Once!

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For me the best feedback doesn't tell me how to write. It tells me about the act of reading. When a critter says "I didn't like this character" or "I didn't understand this bit". When my wife said "I thought you were being too blokey".

The one bit of feedback that you cannot ever argue with is when a reader tells you how your work made them feel. You can't get inside their head and experience it. You cannot challenge it. You just have to take it on the chin.

So unless you are very confident, I would avoid critiques that tell someone how to write - eg "use shorter sentences" or "you've got too many adjectives"

Instead I would focus on how the work made you feel as a reader. Things like "the pacing was a little slow for me. I got bored" or "I didn't understand this bit".

After all, what we all really really want is to write something that appeals to readers, whether they are agents, publishers, the paying public or the judging panel for the Man Booker. So knowing how readers react to our work is priceless.
 

gothicangel

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I'm going to going to my first Milford style conference in July and I was wondering what makes a good critique. I've never done any critiquing before and I want to make sure that I'm giving the best feedback that I can.

What do you find helpful/not helpful when receiving a critique? When you do a crit, how do you approach it and share it with the author?

I think the worst comment I received from a crit was: 'if this kind of shit gets published, then I don't want to be published.' Once the shock wore off, I put it down to a unprofessional critter, who decided to get personal [and maybe a bit of jealousy.]

When I crit I tend to start off saying what was good, and what I personally enjoyed. Then I start with what I felt wasn't working, what could be improved. Sometimes I recommend films or books that might help the writer.
 

heyjude

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I always point out the good as well as the bad. It's helpful to know that a character has been developed in a believable way, or that a bit of dialog is sensational. But I also point out writerly stuff, too. Too many adjectives? That's going to slow me down as a reader. The writer should know that stuff.

I'll do everything from "you've got an extra space here" to "character didn't show enough growth over the ms." It's all important, IMO.

When I receive a crit, I hope for the same but it depends on the person doing the critting. Some have strengths (like character building) that are incredibly helpful, but other areas (maybe grammar) not as much. So it's important to pick and choose what you want from your crit, what's genuinely helpful to you--don't take everything wholesale.

And always say thank you, no matter how much it hurts. :)
 

KellyAssauer

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I've never done any critiquing before and I want to make sure that I'm giving the best feedback that I can.

AW's hugely popular Share Your Work section is chock full of critiques and can be found here. *password: vista*

What do you find helpful/not helpful when receiving a critique? When you do a crit, how do you approach it and share it with the author?

The best way to approach a critique is in a professional manner. You are looking for what works in the piece and what parts of the writing may need improvement.

Read through critiques in the SYW area. Find the comments that appeal to you as a writer, then examine why you thought they were helpful. Find the kind of crits that you would like to have if it was your piece being critiqued.

A good critique addresses the mechanics of the writing. Comments should help the writer see clearly how the work can be improved, and at the same time should encourage the writer to continue writing and working. Take a sentence or paragraph and re-write their words to provide a meaningful example of how to fix or improve the work.

There's a bunch of writers right here on AW that would very much appreciate your comments. So I'd suggest that the best way to learn how to critique is to go do some critiques! - And where would better to do this than right here? =)


*do note that the SYW area for erotica here at AW has certain requirements. Read about them here*
 

Layla Nahar

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I would suggest you read Ch 4 of Peter Elbow's "Writing Without Teachers". It's exactly about what you asked. Try your local library if the idea of buying another book is a turn-off.

I also second (or third?) the suggestion that you start by giving it a try in the SYW section here. You'll learn a lot!
 

lorna_w

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First, I recommend trying to learn what you can for yourself out of the critique process. Over the early years, I learned much more about the craft from critiquing than listening to critiques. Process: you think, "well, this isn't quite right. Hmmm, I wonder why? " You think about it, try some alternative ways of doing what the author was trying to do, and finally you get an "aha!" and you've learned something about writing that will stick with you. See doing the critique as a golden opportunity to learn.

Second, there is no reason to be cruel. If you really, really hate something, say "I don't think I'm in the intended audience for this," and focus on some specific craft issue like "I notice you rely on visual images and I'd like the occasional smell or sound, too," and stop talking and let the next guy talk. If it's verbal critiquing going on, short critiques are nice (most people go on and on and on and repeat what's been said before). On a related note, I like to own my possible shortcomings. "I couldn't get into this, and that may be your fault or a concentration problem of my own last night, but here's where I drifted off." It actually might not be the text but me who is deficient. If I'm the sixth person up, and other people got some complicated thing that was going on and I hadn't and hated the thing, I admit it. "Listening to those who just spoke, I see I missed the whole point, and I'll re-read and give this back to you tomorrow. Because I didn't get it, I pass."

Orson Scott Card says there are three core negative reactions by readers: huh? (I didn't understand this), no way! (there's a verisimilitude problem) and so what? (I'm not engaged enough to care, or it's an irrelevant detail or overly long passage of description I didn't need). That's one way to think about critiquing, marking where you were confused, where you had not yet been convinced that a character would do that (or that physics works that way), and where you lacked sympathy for or belief in a character.

When you're getting your own work critiqued, write furiously. That way, if someone is being a jerk and you want to defend, blush, or weep, you can focus on writing instead and not have to lift your head if you don't want. (You don't need to write down what the nasty one is saying; you can write "this guy is a jerk. His crack whore of a mother should have used birth control." Who'll know but you?) Never defend or explain unless asked a direct question and then keep it to one or two words. Thank everyone for taking the time, even if your feelings were hurt. They've given you the gift of their time and attention, and gratitude is the correct response.
 
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LAgrunion

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I always point out the good as well as the bad.

I second this. Sometimes people focus too much on what they don't like. Hearing the bad is important because otherwise you can't improve. But it's also important to hear the good. For one, we all like encouragement. Also, I like to know what I'm doing right so I can do more of that.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of sugar-coating. I prefer the honesty be dialed up to eleven. When people are trying to censor themselves in critiquing me, I feel that there is the danger I may end up as the emperor with no clothes.

Sure, sometimes brutal honesty can hurt. But that's no big deal to me. It's just feelings; I'm not physically hurt by words. I just try to get over it and move on...
 

HoneyBadger

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There are a number of how-to articles online about Milford-style crits specifically.

A few tips from one (more in the article):

What Worked. These are the Story Aspects (see below) that make you want to eat the author’s brains so you can absorb their brilliance. Or, at least, they are the bits of the story you enjoyed — aspects that are well done, word choices and turns of phrase that shine, passages that so swept you up that you forgot you were critiquing, and so forth.

What Didn’t Work. No, this is not your opportunity to give a rant about how improper apostrophe use is your pet peeve, or to say how much you dislike a particular social world view that is reflected in the story, etc.

Focus instead on specific things in the submitted piece of writing that the author might address to make the story a smoother, clearer, more enjoyable read (from your perspective). For example, Story Aspects that you felt were lacking or needed enhancement, points of confusion, points where the story lost your interest, points where you were bumped out of the immersive reading experience, and passages or story elements that you felt detracted from the enjoyment or clarity of the story.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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The goal of a Milford style critique is to help the writer make the story as good as they can. One of the hardest parts of doing this is putting aside personal taste and personal writing style. Ideally, one should be able to put aside what kinds of stories one likes and dislikes and one's own way of doing things, and try to in effect get alongside the writer and try to help them get back on their own path.

Usually, one starts out with what you think works in the story followed by what you think doesn't. Elements to focus on are things like plot, characterization, description, flow, pacing, language use, consistency, coherence etc.

You can say something like, "The plot makes sense." even if you don't like it, or "the characters hold together and seem human," even if you hate the characters (that can actually be a good sign).

If you are a good copy editor, then do make copy editing suggestions. Mark up the document professionally, noting places where things work and don't work. Edit, don't editorialize.

The trickiest element can be spotting where something has gone wrong. It's pretty common for even the best editors to realize something isn't working far past the point in the book where the problem has crept in. Thus, it's more important to say what seems to not be working when you notice it, but not to prescribe solutions too much.

Depending on the number of critiquers it's important to listen to what others are saying because you may simply want to agree with them rather than reiterate, or if you disagree you may need to marshall an explanation for why you disagree.

There is also a tendency in such critiques to be dogmatic about the rules of writing. I recommend resisting this urge. One of the things I've noticed over the years is that the more experienced the writer the less they tend to refer to rules while critiquing, and the more they tend to dig into the stories themselves.

If the story has problems that are external to it (lack of knowledge on the part of the writer such as not knowing aspects of history, culture, science etc), making suggestions for sources is helpful.

Also people take critiques very differently. Developing the separation between writer and story that is necessary to become a successful rewriter is one of the most valuable skills that can be developed in a critiquing environment. But some people have a harder time with this than others. Don't be hard on anyone having a hard time, and if you have a hard time, work on the separation above.

Warning about jerks: A group of critiquers may contain one or more jerks, people who are there to show off or to tear others down. The best thing to do in those circumstances, I've found, is to disagree firmly with the critique given without attacking the critiquer. Note: you can only do this when you are a fellow critiquer. Don't argue when you are being critiqued.
 

Susan Coffin

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Be honest. Your tell the writer what you did like and did not like. Make your comments specific and clear, and provide what you think is a fix. Avoid generic remarks, as they can confuse.

A good critique group is made of other writers with different strengths. Maybe one likes to critique technique, another grammar. There will probably be someone else whom is into voice. It's important to have a well rounded group of not too many members (I would say about four to five).

I was in a critique group for a few years. One person was really big on voice and could tell people when something sounded out of character. This person once said about a piece of dialogue I wrote: "This is YOU speaking, not your character." Blew me away, but she was right on.

When someone critiques your work, it's important to listen and make comments after they are done. Put your armor on. After all, if you are in a critique group, you are asking for feedback.
 

bearilou

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What do you find helpful/not helpful when receiving a critique?

Giving me time to process the crit. I can't dive into it immediately. I need time to wind up and open it, read it, process it. Then I'll have questions so I'd be patience while I try to get to the meat of what was said. You, as the critter, will be open to what it is that I tell you I want you to focus on.

When you do a crit, how do you approach it and share it with the author?

I find out what exactly the author wants in the form of a crit. There is a fairly intensive instruction with the author about what they want, what form it will take, how intrusive or highlevel, will there be discussion along the way or hit them all at once. I don't take a gander at what they have written until I know precisely what they want and what form it will take.

I prefer AIM conversation, after I've marked up the document so that instant discussion can happen over anything that will be unclear. This is a preference for either critting or being critted.
 

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I can only say what I've found particularly helpful, as I haven't had many occasions to return the favors. Start big, read the entire story, then once you get not just the story, but also the threads that tie it all together, then look at specific scenes and lines, characterizations etc and tell me what did and did not serve the story well. Fairly new at all this, so I've only had two, what I would call great critiques so far, one from a professor in New Jersey who read the entire book twice before she commented at all, and then I was gratified and awed by her detailed observations. And then from an old time newspaperman in PA (he's in his 90's but I should be so sharp) who had reported on my MC and interviewed him, and though much of my book is not written in a proper journalistic style, he was able to not only get past my sometimes long and winding prose but in fact saw their virtue. One thing though, and I hope he wouldn't mind my speaking out of school, but he thought the sex scenes over the top, risque. Trust me, they're not, but just goes to show that you have to consider the source on these things, too.
 

dangerousbill

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I'm going to going to my first Milford style conference in July and I was wondering what makes a good critique. I've never done any critiquing before and I want to make sure that I'm giving the best feedback that I can.

The best guide I know of:

http://www.crayne.com/howcrit.html#Top

Long, but worth reading--twice.
 

juniper

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I was in a weekly crit group for about 2 years before a schedule changed made me leave it.

As a writer, I really, really disliked the pages that only said, "Keep writing!" or "Good story!" or just had smilies on it or something. I felt as if it were a total waste of time.

I really appreciated the ones that said, "The story lags here" or "seems out of character" or "don't understand the connection" or whatever.

I was there to receive advice on how to improve the manuscript, not pats on the back. Pats on the back come from friends and family. Crits come from fellow writers who are looking to improve their craft. Not the ones who just want to squee!!!

I gave the same kind of crits I wanted to receive, to the ones who could handle it. Some of the writers, as I got to know them, just wanted the smilies. So that's what I gave them.

I'm assuming you don't know the other writers who will be there, but since they're paying (I think) to be there, I'd expect them to want a good crit and not jus the smilies.

But do it all, the critting and the accepting of crits, with grace and not malice and not jealousy, and it will be a good experience on both ends.

And have fun!
 

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How does Milford work when it comes to purple prose and style issues like that? I think there is a subjective element to critting that might have me using my own style too much in critting someone else's piece.

I do try to warn folks that it may just be me, and that I'm kinda wonky, but I'd like to get a better grasp on what is too subjective and what isn't.

For the OP, so far I crit like I like to get critique: any thought at all you have about my work, go for it! I like to look at any suggestion or concern anyone has and ponder it. I like to take what helps and not worry about the rest, assuming we may have a taste difference.

I especially like critiques from folks who are familiar with what I am shooting for, because a taste difference there might be a major problem.

I really appreciate any thoughts, though. I see it as a big group of readers who are actually speaking up about my work, which is fascinating and quite helpful. Some would never buy it, of course, but I get to see the breakdown.
 

Layla Nahar

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I think there is a subjective element to critting that might have me using my own style too much in critting someone else's piece.

If you refrain from making suggestions, but simply stick to describing how the words affected you, describing how you respond to the piece as a reader, that would take the issue above out of the picture.
 

quicklime

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So unless you are very confident, I would avoid critiques that tell someone how to write - eg "use shorter sentences" or "you've got too many adjectives"

Instead I would focus on how the work made you feel as a reader. Things like "the pacing was a little slow for me. I got bored" or "I didn't understand this bit".

After all, what we all really really want is to write something that appeals to readers, whether they are agents, publishers, the paying public or the judging panel for the Man Booker. So knowing how readers react to our work is priceless.


I disagree with this entirely; if there are way too many adjectives or the writing comes off amateur or strained through a huge over-use of adverbs (really, one should only tell the writer how they "feel" about a line like "Billy sprinted across the yard at a blisteringly quick run."????) that's entirely fair game, and you'd be doing the writer a disservice to ignore it, imho. I suppose I could tell them "that many adjectives makes me feel pissed off and irritated." :tongue
 

LAgrunion

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For me the best feedback doesn't tell me how to write. It tells me about the act of reading.

So unless you are very confident, I would avoid critiques that tell someone how to write - eg "use shorter sentences" or "you've got too many adjectives"

After all, what we all really really want is to write something that appeals to readers, whether they are agents, publishers, the paying public or the judging panel for the Man Booker. So knowing how readers react to our work is priceless.

I disagree with this entirely; if there are way too many adjectives or the writing comes off amateur or strained through a huge over-use of adverbs . . . that's entirely fair game, and you'd be doing the writer a disservice to ignore it, imho. I suppose I could tell them "that many adjectives makes me feel pissed off and irritated."

I think I agree with both Once and quicklime - if that makes sense.

I'd like to hear EVERYTHING - tell me how you feel, tell me if my writing sucks. It doesn't have to be one or the other; both can help me improve.

If I had to choose one camp, though, I'd probably go with the reader's reaction, as opposed to an evaluation of the mechanics of my writing.

I love nice writing, don't get me wrong. But I also see that there are sooo many big sellers out there with mediocre to bad writing. That leads me to think that, if you're writing with a goal of publishing and making a career out it, ultimately you just have to write something the market wants to buy. On that front, a holistic reader reaction trumps technical issues of writing.

I just read 50 Shades of Grey, which has been vilified by many as bad writing. I actually thought the prose wasn't so bad. Repetitive at times, yes, but horrible writing? Not really, in my opinion. The bottom-line is that the story was compelling enough that tons of people want to read it. Assuming it was bad writing, the fact remains that boatloads of people like it.
 

Layla Nahar

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You can say 'In the section where there are a lot of adjectives back to back I had to stop and think to make sense of what I was reading. I lost focus and I lost track of the story."

You're saying the same thing but entirely in reference to yourself as a reader.
 

ladybritches

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You can say 'In the section where there are a lot of adjectives back to back I had to stop and think to make sense of what I was reading. I lost focus and I lost track of the story."

You're saying the same thing but entirely in reference to yourself as a reader.

Honestly, I'd prefer a more direct approach. If you say, "I got distracted by all the adjectives", that's still referencing your feelings as a reader, and I wouldn't have to guess what, exactly, was tripping you up.
 

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I'm very new to get critiqued and I have already run into bad ones ( I cried) and very good ones. Here are some of the comments that I found the most useful:

'[FONT=&quot]These two sound very similar to me. Maybe ‘Some swore but complied, while others remained defiant’

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Loop? I’m not sure I can picture this

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Two questions raised by this – what brought this explanation on? It seems out of place here, and why doesn’t Cristia already know this?'

The first is a stylist thing that made the reader stumble through. The second points out and image that the reader couldn't picture. And the third points out that I 'put words in my character's mouth' solely for the reader.

What I don't like is a person trying to change my over-all style. As in to eliminate certain elements. One person told me that I shouldn't use acronyms ( he said I reader won't like them). I have a military aspect to my novel and to have them not use the acronyms would compromise both me and the character. Another suggested I put action after every bit of dialogue so instead of having:
"Jimmy likes peaches," Jon said.
"Who eats peaches?"
Its:
"Jimmy likes peaches," Jon shrugged pursing his lips.
Kelly sank into a chair, "who eats peaches?"
(Maybe not the bestexample, but you get the drift?)
I hope this helps :)
[/FONT]
 

ladybritches

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but, but ... that's the point!

lol. I don't think I was clear on what I meant. My point was that you can be direct and still focus on your "response" as a reader. I don't like critiques that pussyfoot around the problems like critters are trying to spare my feelings. I don't have feelings. Ha. I like bluntness. If you don't like the adjectives just say so.

We all have different personalities, and I respond better to criticism than praise, for some reason. So I like "these is the facts ma'am" kind of critiques that just tell me what I'm doing wrong. Someone else might respond better to your gentler, kinder approach. :)
 
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