Too Dark for Wicca

meowzbark · May 17, 2012

I originally planned on having amateur witchcraft in my novel that mimicked spells and rituals used in Wicca, however I found that my character is much darker and more reckless. Thus, the spells she casts wouldn't be used by most Wiccans.

I'm a little unsure of how to portray the difference in my book. I want it to be authentic, but I'm superstitious myself so I don't want to accidentally conjure any bad spirits for myself or readers by detailing the exact process. I also don't want to directly say that the character is practicing Satanism, but I want her actions to portray it. The book itself is not about Good vs Evil, rather karma. If you do bad things to others, it will happen back to you.

So to those that practice Wicca, is there anything that I should avoid mentioning that is Wicca specific with witchcraft? Or is there any obvious differences that I should mention? I have researched Wicca (and still am), but an inside opinion would be appreciated.

Mr Flibble · May 17, 2012

I'm a bit on the fence here for various reasons, so maybe just a discussion? Note: I am pagan, but not wiccan.

On the one hand, just because you are wiccan doesn't mean you can't be reckless, or are a nice person. Not all satanists are Teh Evul!! either (I work with one, well, a Luciferian. She's lovely. Really.)

On the other hand, wiccans/pagans can get a bad deal in fiction, so...

Also wiccan to satanist is a bit of stretch!

Please excuse this soapbox I am hiding behind me.

You can explore the karma/what goes around comes around with both wiccan and satanist characters (or any other religion tbh) but...I'd say concentrate on your character. What does she believe? Why? How does this link to her religion? How is this all going to tie into your theme? (Also, whatever religion you go with, you don't need to detail exact specifics - for example, to portray a Christian you wouldn't always need to lay out all the prayers word for word. Hints could be enough)

I think if you concentrate on her as a person, rather than as a practitioner of A Religion, it should help.

Not sure if that helps you or not....

meowzbark · May 17, 2012

IdiotsRUs said:
I'm a bit on the fence here for various reasons, so maybe just a discussion? Note: I am pagan, but not wiccan.

On the one hand, just because you are wiccan doesn't mean you can't be reckless, or are a nice person. Not all satanists are Teh Evul!! either (I work with one, well, a Luciferian. She's lovely. Really.)

On the other hand, wiccans/pagans can get a bad deal in fiction, so...

Also wiccan to satanist is a bit of stretch! Please excuse this soapbox I am hiding behind me.

You can explore the karma/what goes around comes around with both wiccan and satanist characters (or any other religion tbh) but...I'd say concentrate on your character. What does she believe? Why? How does this link to her religion? How is this all going to tie into your theme? (Also, whatever religion you go with, you don't need to detail exact specifics - for example, to portray a Christian you wouldn't always need to lay out all the prayers word for word. Hints could be enough)

I think if you concentrate on her as a person, rather than as a practitioner of A Religion, it should help.

Not sure if that helps you or not....

The character is a teenager who is doing witchcraft to get what she wants. She curses another teenager who she thinks is competing for a guy she likes, she performs a love spell, and a few other things. To her, the religion is not important. She's impulsive and wants immediate results. I think it ties better with Satanic beliefs, because they basically believe that their goal in life is to achieve the best life they can. She's selfish for most of the book and it's not until the end that she changes...but by then it's too late for her. I'm honestly torn between her misusing Wiccan magik and her using Satanic spells. She isn't the MC, but she's a very essential part of the story. The MC is the unfortunate recipient of some of her spells. I know Wicca has gotten a bad rep over the years and I'd rather not add to it.

My research has also shed very little light on the consequences of performing Wiccan spells that influence the will of others besides that if you do evil, it will come back threefold. Most authors warn against it, but don't give specific examples of what will happen. As opposed to Christian religion, which essentially gives you the same punishment no matter what rule you break...do it our way or you're going to Hell. And, I believe that Satanist do believe they are going to Hell but I could be wrong and they believe that there is no Heaven/Hell. I need to double check on this. I haven't done too much research on Satanism.

Basically, I want this character to be authentic. I know her personality and role. I just want the religion-associated details to be accurate rather than based on stereotypes. As I said prior, I'm an outsider trying to figure this out. I'm not a follower of any particular religion ATM, but I love reading about various mythologies and religions.

Mr Flibble · May 17, 2012

If the religion isn't important to her, she doesn't need to be tied to any one. Could you not have her just going for whatever seems good for her purposes at the time (so she might try one spell at one time, and another from a different religion at another?) Might help show her impulsiveness and selfishness?

If she's not religious, it won't really matter to her where the spells come from, just what effect she wants them to have. Could reinforce that it's the intent behind the spell that's the issue, rather than the spell itself.

meowzbark · May 17, 2012

IdiotsRUs said:
If the religion isn't important to her, she doesn't need to be tied to any one. Could you not have her just going for whatever seems good for her purposes at the time (so she might try one spell at one time, and another from a different religion at another?) Might help show her impulsiveness and selfishness?

If she's not religious, it won't really matter to her where the spells come from, just what effect she wants them to have. Could reinforce that it's the intent behind the spell that's the issue, rather than the spell itself.

Yes, that's a good solution. I really like it.

Marya · May 17, 2012

You might want to do a little research on practitioners of the Left-Hand Path, darker ritual magick and a concept used by Chaos magicians and Thelemites, as well as others. Or think about British tradition witchcraft rituals and fetishes or Caribbean voudoun.

Spy_on_the_Inside · May 17, 2012

I have to agree. Wiccans and even other Neopagans do not corner the market on magick. If you don't see a religion as fitting in with what she wants, she can certainly forksake any path. Maybe even, in your story, make a point of her skipping over a lot of the religious principles.

I can see this sort of thing as even appealing to Pagans as well, showing the dangers of what can happen if a teenager goes into magick without any respect for the rules that go along with it and without any idea of what they're doing.

But in your previous idea, I do remember you saying you wanted to differentiate what your character wants from what the Wiccan religion is about. I think this is a good idea. Wiccans tend to get flack anytime magic appears in a story *cough*honesttoGodHarryPotter*cought*. I think Pagans out there would appriciate it if you did take some time to do that.

You mentioned also in your thread, a Wiccan or Pagan employee at a New Age store she goes to warning her what would happen and essentially saying she's an idiot.

Just please don't make a carbon copy of the shop lady from The Craft. Yes, she was awesome, but there are indeed Pagans who wear t-shirts and blue jeans.

Rufus Coppertop · May 17, 2012

I can't give you an inside opinion because I'm not a Wiccan.

Regardless of that, this might be useful to you in some way.

If you can get hold of Magika Hiera and Ancient Greek Love Magic by Christopher A Faraone, also, Greek Magical Papyri in Translation edited by Hans Dieter Betz, you'll find some gob-smackingly ugly love spells.

An aspect of it that you might enjoy exploring is that (with Classical and Hellenic erotic magic at least), the mechanisms used are similar to the mechanisms used in curses because love spells that are designed to hijack the free will of another, are in fact a type of curse.

Betz, page 83 translates a spell that can be modified from an agoge spell (which drives the victim to the house and into the arms of the spell-caster) to an illness or death curse by the simple modification of the last sentence in the incantation.

Some involve tying a dappled wryneck (Iunx Bird) top a wheel and torturing it with the intent that the target of the love spell might feel the agony suffered by the bird until they come to the sorcerer and yield.

There is one designed to break up a marriage which involves pouring red hot coals into a metal vessel containing a live lizard, while chanting an incantation to the effect that the husband and wife might burn with hatred for one another.

Another translated in Arcana Mundi by Georg Luck (not George), involves sticking bronze needles into a figure and tying it to a lead tablet with incantations engraved and burying it with someone who suffered an untimely death while asking the gods of the underworld and the restless dead to persecute and torment so and so and deprive her of all joy until she comes to me and becomes mine forever....or words to that effect.

Too dark for Wicca? Yeah. But Wicca is not all of magic.

Maybe your character can embrace the darkness and suffer some consequences.

meowzbark · May 17, 2012

Spy_on_the_Inside said:
Just please don't make a carbon copy of the shop lady from The Craft. Yes, she was awesome, but there are indeed Pagans who wear t-shirts and blue jeans.

My shop owner is a middle age man with a hole in his throat from smoking too much.

Rufus_Coppertop said:
If you can get hold of Magika Hiera and Ancient Greek Love Magic by Christopher A Faraone, also, Greek Magical Papyri in Translation edited by Hans Dieter Betz, you'll find some gob-smackingly ugly love spells.

Thanks Rufus for the books. I'll try to find them.

As for the ideas, please keep them coming!

Spy_on_the_Inside · May 18, 2012

Your shop owner sounds cool. Reminds me of the owner of Magus Books near where I live, with his British accent and his tea with the smell that stings my eyes.

But I'd love to see the chaper when it's done.

Sarashay · May 18, 2012

Wicca has existed as a religion for less than a century and people have been using it as a starting point to wander off and do their own thing for much of that century, so I'm not sure what you're worried about exactly.

Given that what the spells DO is more important to the plot than where they come from, could you possibly give this dark path a name of your own invention? Then it can be exactly what you need it to be and nobody has room to complain that you're not doing it right.

StephanieFox · May 18, 2012

Wiccans and other Pagans don't believe that spells work unless there is focus and intent behind them. You can wave around an athame and a wand all you want, but if you can't focus and release energy you might as well be saying nonsense words. Many Wiccans make up their own spells, but since you character is just a kid, she may not know that and may not know how.

However there are several spell books out there.

The tools and theatrics are a way to focus the thoughts and energy. How that helps.

Karen Junker · May 18, 2012

I'm British Traditional Wicca -- if you'd like to PM me, I'd be happy to help.

rainsmom · May 18, 2012

When you mention curses, honestly, I think Hoodoo. It's pretty straightforward low magick. NOT a religion.

In my opinion, if you invoke the word Satanism at all, your readers are going to focus on that. It's just too charged to be used casually. Believe me, there are very definitely people who practice witchcraft or folk magick who aren't into Wicca. Magick very definitely does NOT have to be tied to religion.

Spy_on_the_Inside · May 18, 2012

What did I tell you, meowzbark? There are plenty of people here willing to help you.

Karen Junker · May 18, 2012

Rainsmom is absolutely right. Your character may be able to practice magic with no religious overtones at all.

Too Dark for Wicca

meowzbark

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

meowzbark

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

meowzbark

Marya

In search of distractions

Spy_on_the_Inside

Rufus Coppertop

meowzbark

Spy_on_the_Inside

Sarashay

Shut Up and Write

StephanieFox

Maybull the Bulldog

Karen Junker

Live a little. Write a lot.

rainsmom

Feeling like an old timer

Spy_on_the_Inside

Karen Junker

Live a little. Write a lot.