Underwhelming climax problem

sunandshadow · May 14, 2012

I've been working on outlining a plot. It has a clear main character and villain, who have strong conflict between them (at the beginning of the story they have an interaction where each feels injured by the other and they have violently opposed politics) as well as a third character to fight over (FMC's love interest is villain's son, villain opposes any contact between the two). I knew I wanted to end the story with the villain finally being forced to leave the MC alone and accept his son being in a romance with the MC (and also as a subplot, the villain has refused to start any relationships of his own for years, I want him to move on, open up, and start a relationship with a secondary character who everyone knows has a crush on him).

So the part that was missing until recently was how all this conflict would come to a head and get resolved. Now I thought of an idea, it would work EXCEPT... the idea I thought of has the climax be a fight between the villain and his child (after the MC makes a final persuasive argument to the son, the climax all revolves on his decision whether to be with her and his convincing of his father to accept that. The MC would not be directly interacting with the villain. I was just reading a how-to book saying that this makes for a weak ending. And it does feel kind of weak. Soo, suggestions? Questions? Opinions?

sliccat · May 14, 2012

Okay, your supporting character (Male MC) is solving your story's main conflict, which is your problem. Usually, the most effective solution would be to have the main character pose the argument to the villain, and come up with another secondary character can solve (and the MC can't). It's hard to say more without knowing more about your story, but for example, your supporting could engineer a way for MC to confront the villain directly (or his argument could be to convince the villain to actually hear out the MC). The supporting and MC could face it together. Or the villain could create some other barrier to their relationship that the main character has to overcome, and the supporting's argument with the villain would be the story's resolution.

Kerosene · May 14, 2012

Have them kill each other.

If you're ending at a luke-warm part, cause more conflict and force the two sides to clash. Give them both a heavy reason to go at each other.

sunandshadow · May 14, 2012

sliccat said:
Okay, your supporting character (Male MC) is solving your story's main conflict, which is your problem. Usually, the most effective solution would be to have the main character pose the argument to the villain, and come up with another secondary character can solve (and the MC can't). It's hard to say more without knowing more about your story, but for example, your supporting could engineer a way for MC to confront the villain directly (or his argument could be to convince the villain to actually hear out the MC). The supporting and MC could face it together. Or the villain could create some other barrier to their relationship that the main character has to overcome, and the supporting's argument with the villain would be the story's resolution.

The main problem of the story is one that exists several chapters before the supporting character is part of the story, so the supporting character can't become the main character and the romance can't be the main story question. The supporting character is the catalyst that makes the MC resume the fight she had given up on years ago. The problem is, the development of the story has established pretty clearly that the villain isn't interested in listening to anything the MC has to say. So there isn't really any argument she could make directly to him that would be effective. The supporting character, on the other hand, being the villain's beloved son, has an "in" there that the MC doesn't have. She could certainly stand there with the supporting character while he was making his argument, but the villain would pretty much ignore what she had to say.

I'll consider the idea of the villain creating a new barrier to their relationship for them to overcome, that has potential, and it is totally in character for him to actively try to interfere in a way that would make a big mess.

sunandshadow · May 14, 2012

WillSauger said:
Have them kill each other.

If you're ending at a luke-warm part, cause more conflict and force the two sides to clash. Give them both a heavy reason to go at each other.

Er, no. There's supposed to be a happy ending where romances succeed and everyone agrees to live more-or-less at peace. And neither of the two is a violent person, they are both kinda pacifistic and more inclined to political maneuvering. So, more conflict, yeah, but no killing or physical combat. Also, it's been established earlier in the story that even when she was at her most desperate she didn't have the power to force the villain to do anything.

Kerosene · May 14, 2012

sunandshadow said:
Er, no. There's supposed to be a happy ending where romances succeed and everyone agrees to live more-or-less at peace. And neither of the two is a violent person, they are both kinda pacifistic and more inclined to political maneuvering. So, more conflict, yeah, but no killing or physical combat. Also, it's been established earlier in the story that even when she was at her most desperate she didn't have the power to force the villain to do anything.

It's figurative speech. "At each other's throats".

So after re-re-reading and mapping what you said.

The only solution I can think of is a mutual enemy. Make someone or something that both the MC and villain can hate.
They don't have to work together, but the villain has to reconcile his ways to face the opponent. For the villain, it's either the MC goes down or his son.

It's like this.

I like vanilla ice cream.
You like chocolate.
Your son likes strawberry.

A person walks in a says he likes sherbet more than anything and can prove to everyone it's better.

Either we both go down, or we work together (or in the same way) against a mutual enemy.

Lady Ice · May 14, 2012

sunandshadow said:
I've been working on outlining a plot. It has a clear main character and villain, who have strong conflict between them (at the beginning of the story they have an interaction where each feels injured by the other and they have violently opposed politics) as well as a third character to fight over (FMC's love interest is villain's son, villain opposes any contact between the two). I knew I wanted to end the story with the villain finally being forced to leave the MC alone and accept his son being in a romance with the MC (and also as a subplot, the villain has refused to start any relationships of his own for years, I want him to move on, open up, and start a relationship with a secondary character who everyone knows has a crush on him).

So the part that was missing until recently was how all this conflict would come to a head and get resolved. Now I thought of an idea, it would work EXCEPT... the idea I thought of has the climax be a fight between the villain and his child (after the MC makes a final persuasive argument to the son, the climax all revolves on his decision whether to be with her and his convincing of his father to accept that. The MC would not be directly interacting with the villain. I was just reading a how-to book saying that this makes for a weak ending. And it does feel kind of weak. Soo, suggestions? Questions? Opinions?

Your story is unusual in that it has a happy ending for all, and I'm not entirely buying it if the antagonist really is a "villain".

You're right to doubt your ending. This is the MC's story, not the love interest's. It also puts the power in the hands of the love interest, rather than the MC who obediently has to wait until the love interest mans up and chooses her.

Presumably there is more at stake with them being together than simply having the father disapprove? For example, the love interest gets kicked out. If the stakes are high enough, surely the MC is going to confront the father? Or perhaps they run away together and run out of money? The love interest can have a chat with his father but it need not be the climax.

Lady Ice · May 14, 2012

sunandshadow said:
The main problem of the story is one that exists several chapters before the supporting character is part of the story, so the supporting character can't become the main character and the romance can't be the main story question. The supporting character is the catalyst that makes the MC resume the fight she had given up on years ago. The problem is, the development of the story has established pretty clearly that the villain isn't interested in listening to anything the MC has to say. So there isn't really any argument she could make directly to him that would be effective. The supporting character, on the other hand, being the villain's beloved son, has an "in" there that the MC doesn't have. She could certainly stand there with the supporting character while he was making his argument, but the villain would pretty much ignore what she had to say.

He wouldn't ignore her if she threatened the death of his son or claimed to be pregnant by the son. Obviously these are rather extreme tactics but your "villain" must have a weakness. Alternatively, something happens that changes the villain's perspective on things, so then he is more willing to listen to the MC.

brianjanuary · May 14, 2012

You do need the MC to have a powerfully-motivating story goal, something he/she wants desperately, plus an antagonistic force (aka villain) opposing the attainment of this goal. Then at the climax you have the final battle between the two opposing forces and the MC attains the goal. For the reader to feel satisifed, the MC must personally defeat the villain and attain the goal, even if the goal is ultimately lost again or the MC's character arc has changed him so that the goal has become no longer important.

Debbie V · May 14, 2012

I'm beginning to think the story revolves more around the villain than the main character. Your description makes his goal clear - Keep my son away from that dreaded woman who.... He also has the most emotional growth in that he must overcome whatever stopped him from having relationships, open up and move on. Perhaps he is really the main character.

If not, please give us more info on what the main character's goals are, and why her relationship with the villain matters (son excluded).

BradCarsten · May 14, 2012

Ask yourself what makes the Villain finally accept his son's choice, and what event changes him enough to finally put aside his own hurt and allow love in.
That usually only happens when an event forces a person to reassess their life.

If his son is almost killed in a car accident for example and the protagonist sits by the bed 24/7 forcing him to see a different side of her.

if his political career crumbles, he loses his house, he loses his friends and in his darkest hour the protagonist comes through for him despite all the bad things he has done to her.

Find the trigger and you will have your climax.

BethS · May 14, 2012

I am very confused by all the references to MC and FMC and villain and son. I've read your little synopsis several times and I still get lost. Is the MC the villain's son? And he's in love with a woman his father doesn't approve of? Is there more than one MC, because I can't make sense of this:

I knew I wanted to end the story with the villain finally being forced to leave the MC alone and accept his son being in a romance with the MC

I thought the FMC was the one in love with villain's son...who is, or is not, the MC?

Can you restate this using names, pretty please?

In general answer to your question, the protagonist and antagonist must collide at the end. You can't have someone else solving the protag's problem.

sunandshadow · May 14, 2012

BethS said:
I am very confused by all the references to MC and FMC and villain and son. I've read your little synopsis several times and I still get lost. Is the MC the villain's son? And he's in love with a woman his father doesn't approve of? Is there more than one MC, because I can't make sense of this:

I thought the FMC was the one in love with villain's son...who is, or is not, the MC?

Can you restate this using names, pretty please?

In general answer to your question, the protagonist and antagonist must collide at the end. You can't have someone else solving the protag's problem.

Apologies for the confusion. The FMC is the MC. I just put an F on the first occurrence because I realized that sentence didn't make her gender clear. There are three characters: Female MC, Male Villain, and Villain's son who is also Female MC's Love Interest. They don't have names yet, sorry. ^_^;

Urgh I'm going to respond to more of these posts but I ran out of time.

BethS · May 14, 2012

sunandshadow said:
They don't have names yet, sorry. ^_^;

So I gather this is an outline you're working on?

Interesting that they don't have names. I find that names make characters much more real and three-dimensional. And when that happens, it's easier to see what motivates them and what they'll do next.

Lady Ice · May 14, 2012

You could always give them placeholder names, such as Girl, Boy, Villain. Or even names based on a characteristic they have, such as Blondie or Fatty.

thothguard51 · May 14, 2012

I have a question...

While you have not said so specifically, it seems the villain/antagonist is in love with the protagonist.

The protagonist is a woman, the antagonist is a man, so what are their ages at the beginning of the story when the conflict arises? The reason I ask is that you have the protagonist fall in love with the antagonist son and I assume he is over 18 which would make his father in his mid to late 30's.

If this is the case, is the woman as old as the antagonist? Older woman - younger man romance? If so, then I don't understand how the son does not know of his fathers hatred for this woman or why they father did not make sure the son did not understand the conflict between the two.

As to how to resolve, add a second antagonist who is plotting against both houses and in the end, the 1st antagonist dies saving both his son and the protagonist. This way, the protagonist is guilt free in the death of her lovers father. Or, if he does not die, he saves them and realizes his error and moves on... sadder, but resolved.

sunandshadow · May 14, 2012

BethS said:
So I gather this is an outline you're working on?

Interesting that they don't have names. I find that names make characters much more real and three-dimensional. And when that happens, it's easier to see what motivates them and what they'll do next.

Lady Ice said:
You could always give them placeholder names, such as Girl, Boy, Villain. Or even names based on a characteristic they have, such as Blondie or Fatty.

Yes it's an outline.

I'm very picky about names, so I often only name a character after I've developed the story concept, including that character's concept, to the point where I'm satisfied with the prewriting and ready to start actually writing.

But placeholders I can do. Let's call the FMC Dew, the Son/Love Interest Stratus, and the Villain Captain Thunder.

sunandshadow · May 14, 2012

thothguard51 said:
I have a question...

While you have not said so specifically, it seems the villain/antagonist is in love with the protagonist.

The protagonist is a woman, the antagonist is a man, so what are their ages at the beginning of the story when the conflict arises? The reason I ask is that you have the protagonist fall in love with the antagonist son and I assume he is over 18 which would make his father in his mid to late 30's.

If this is the case, is the woman as old as the antagonist? Older woman - younger man romance? If so, then I don't understand how the son does not know of his fathers hatred for this woman or why they father did not make sure the son did not understand the conflict between the two.

As to how to resolve, add a second antagonist who is plotting against both houses and in the end, the 1st antagonist dies saving both his son and the protagonist. This way, the protagonist is guilt free in the death of her lovers father. Or, if he does not die, he saves them and realizes his error and moves on... sadder, but resolved.

The female main character (Dew) and the male villain (Captain Thunder) hate/fear each other, there is not any kind of love between them. Captain Thunder is about 10 years older than Dew. Captain Thunder's son Stratus was born when the Captain was about 28 and Dew was 18. By the end of the story Stratus is 21, so Dew is 39 and Captain Thunder is 49. So the part about the romance between the main character and the son being an older woman-younger man romance is correct. Stratus doesn't know of his father's hatred for pretty much anyone because Captain Thunder has always tried to keep his son sheltered and innocent and the father always tries to maintain a heroic image in public because of his political position.

sunandshadow · May 14, 2012

brianjanuary said:
You do need the MC to have a powerfully-motivating story goal, something he/she wants desperately, plus an antagonistic force (aka villain) opposing the attainment of this goal. Then at the climax you have the final battle between the two opposing forces and the MC attains the goal. For the reader to feel satisfied, the MC must personally defeat the villain and attain the goal, even if the goal is ultimately lost again or the MC's character arc has changed him so that the goal has become no longer important.

The story's overall goal is emancipation from past hurt, or it could be restated as fixing past injustice (which caused long-term hurt). This goal applies to all three characters. Captain Thunder feels that Dew injured him out of sheer perversity (of the political kind); the specific injury is that he will never again trust women, whereas previously he has put them on a pedestal as inherently good beings. In response he injured Dew with the goal of preventing her from ever being able to advance her "perverse" political goals, ignoring the clear evidence that his prevention caused her extreme emotional trauma, and she also got physically beaten and ended up in the hospital. The Captain felt slightly guilty because he only intended for her to get intimidated, not beaten, but he refused to compromise at all regardless of his feelings. Stratus feels betrayed by both of them because they both told him half-truths, but the more long-term injury is his father's fault for pressuring Stratus to live up to an image and making him feel guilty for wanting to be himself and follow his heart.

So the goal for all three of them is to get over their injuries and trauma and instead heal and become trusting and loving again. Getting over their trauma requires confronting the source of their trauma. Stratus needs to stop being sheltered, face the hurtful truths the others were concealing from him, and form his own opinion. Dew needs to find a way not to feel helpless in the face of Captain Thunder's tyrannical power and inclination to hurt her unjustly with it. (That's the part I'm having trouble with. She is supposed to be like Rosa Parks who used passive resistance to fight injustice and suffered with integrity until she finally triumphed. But I haven't thought of a plausible and in-character way she would actually be able to make Captain Thunder quit acting like a zealous bigot.) Captain Thunder needs to let his son grow up, understand that Dew is not perverted or crazy or whatever zealots label their incomprehensible enemies, and realize that he can and should try trusting other women, specifically a secondary female character (let's call her Muffin) who actually does have the sweet innocence Captain Thunder grew up admiring in women and who everyone knows has a crush on the Captain.

robertbevan · May 14, 2012

"Just a minute!" came a female voice from inside the house.

The door opened.

"Oh, it's you," said Muffin.

"Hello Muffin." said Dew. "I need to talk to Stratus."

"He's in his room. His father says he's not supposed to talk to you."

"You're not the boss of me!" Stratus's sweet voice rang out from the top of the staircase. "I'm an adult now, and you can't tell me what to do!" He started down the stairs, stepped on a Lego halfway down, and fell the rest of the way.

"Please, Muffin," said Dew. "Just a moment alone."

"Fine," said Muffin. She turned to where Stratus lay at the bottom of the stairs. "But I'm telling your father." She stomped off into the kitchen.

"Why aren't you dressed?" asked Dew. "You can't go to the opera house dressed like that."

"My dad said I'm not allowed to see you anymore," said Stratus, rubbing the pain out of his elbow. "And I can't go out until my room is clean."

"Dammit Stratus! Your father is a fifty-year-old man who calls himself Captain Thunder. It's about time there was a grown-up in this house. Now you march your cute little ass right back up those stairs, put on a clean shirt, and get in the car. These tickets didn't come cheap, you know."

Stratus sighed. "Fine, I'll go."

"And later, after you pleasure me orally, I'll take you out for ice cream."

Lady Ice · May 15, 2012

I had no idea Dew was 39 and Stratus was 21! To be honest, I'm shipping her and Captain Thunder, unless Captain Thunder is beardy and paunchy.

Please keep these names, they're brilliant!

frimble3 · May 15, 2012

sunandshadow said:
She is supposed to be like Rosa Parks who used passive resistance to fight injustice and suffered with integrity until she finally triumphed. But I haven't thought of a plausible and in-character way she would actually be able to make Captain Thunder quit acting like a zealous bigot.

I agree, she has to actually do something. Rosa Parks suffering silently with integrity didn't actually change the 'back of the bus' situation. The Bus Boycott (economic sanctions) did.

JSDR · May 15, 2012

What you have sounds like Star Wars.

The story is basically told from Luke/Leia's POV's, but the story is *about* Darth Vader. His choices are what keep the plot moving forward. L and L just kind of react to everything he does, which is how you're constructing the final conflict - FMC's future depends on what the two dudes decide.

It's doable, but if the story is primarily from her POV, then something she does should decide her fate.

So, according to your original post, you feel the weakness of how you've set it up. Change it.

You've set up that Captain Thunder has vulnerabilities. At the climax, he'd be most vulnerable. FMC can take Love Interest's hand and confront Thunder (forgot names already) and tell him:
"Dude, your son has chosen to be with me. If you love and respect him, then respect his choice. Maybe with time, you can come to understand why he chose me - I'm not bad/evil/whatev. I've forgiven you. I'll not be cliche and say you need to forgive yourself, I'm just letting you know that as far as I'm concerned, there air is clear between us.
"But your son has chosen me. Don't make him choose between us because you'll lose, and you'll lose him forever. I've forgiven you but I haven't forgotten, and I'll not waste kind words defending you to him if letting him go is what you choose.
"Anyway... That's all I wanted to say."

Underwhelming climax problem

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