Titles and first/last names in medieval times.

anthony draco

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I have problems with titles. (Is that the correct word for nouns before names, like 'Dr, Mr, Mrs, etc'?) In medieval times when people rarely have surnames, is it fine to address the first name with Master, Mistress, and such? Does Master Pucey sounds fine?

I've seen them used with last names most of the time, so I'm wondering if titles work with first names too.
 

thothguard51

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Google Medieval Titles...

As far as sir names and family names, depends on the culture. Again, google is your friend...
 

anthony draco

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I have. But none of them can really tell me if I can use titles with first name. Like Master + first name, in commoner.
 

thothguard51

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Using titles in literary work, is dependent on the culture and time frame your story takes place within. Even a fantasy world will have rules that the writer gives it for such usage.

Some cultures use only a first name. Some will use a first name followed by tribe, parentage, or even a number to show which one they are. Using a title along with a name will always depend on the culture and if used formally or informally...

King Edward the 1st,
Jarl Ragnor of South Hampton,
Master Merlin,
Mistress Nimu,
King Arthur,
Master Nathin of Thothguard...Formal address/introduction.
Master Nathin...informal address.
Ambassador Joseph Hayden of the United States, Formal introduction.
Ambassador Hayden, informal address. Never Ambassador Joseph.

But, to understand title usage a bit better, try reading a very small book by William Strunk and E.B. White, called, The Elements of Style, if you have not already. You can even pull up a free copy on line by searching, The Elements of Style. EOS is a good primer...

Did you try searching Medieval titles using Wikipedia? Because Master has many different meanings and ways of saying master, depending on the culture.
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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Medieval Times is practically useless as a term for identifying what sorts of titles you want.

When in medieval times? Which country? Are you asking about 10th century Norway or 13th century India or 12th century France or 14th century China or what? The answers will be very different depending on the time and place.
 

anthony draco

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OK, it's like Game of Thrones medieval. It's high fantasy, but the theme is primarily European around medieval time, when there was still knights with shining blades and such.
 

areteus

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Game of Thrones is not a good historical reference... parts of it are very much early medieval (the North, for example, where the Starks are pretty close to Anglo Saxons in many ways) whereas Kings Landing is very much a Tudor setting which makes it very much renaissance/early modern rather than medieval.

And you will always have surnames where there are titles in general. Even commoners will be named at the very least for the village they come from (Bob of Hallam) or their profession (Bob the Carter or John the Smith) which will later evolve into proper surnames (Bob Hallam, Bob Carter, Bob Smith). Nobles and educated gentlemen will have surnames based on where their lineage comes from.

As an example, my own surname, Lascelles, is shared with a noble family (the Earls of Harewood, Yorkshire and no, I have no idea if there is a relationship or not...). The name is listed on the Battle roll created by William I after the Battle of Hastings as being that of one of the knights who fought with him and was granted land as a result. The origin of the name comes from the region of Normandy they came from.
 

anthony draco

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@thoth

Allow me to point out a bit. I was answering Ultragotha's question. Not that I wasn't capable of searching, but if I could provide more information for someone to help me more, I would provide it. The more the better. You seem to think that by answering that question, I somehow didn't understand your answer. My question was 'In medieval times when people rarely have surnames, is it fine to use Master, Mistress and other titles with first names'? And I got your answer from post #4. Some titles can be used with first name only, when the person doesn't have a last name, and in informal situations. Thank you.

@areteus
Since your information and thoth's differ, may I ask to confirm if I got it right? Even when you use 'Master' in informal situation, like in a conversation with someone you know well but respect to a degree, I usually need to use his last name following the word 'Master'?

So if he had no last name, but is known by the town as 'the smith,' I need to address him as 'Master Smith' instead of his name?
 
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mayqueen

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Try looking up some of the historical reenactment groups like Regia Anglorum (for Saxon/Viking times) and the Academy of St. Gabriel. They usually have society naming guides that will help you out.
 

areteus

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I don't think the information I gave was any different... I did not mention situations where titles had to be used with first or surnames, I merely pointed out that there are very few situations in which someone who has a title (whether it be noble or academic or craft based) will not have a surname because people with those titles generally come from families who are noble and/or rich and therefore have such things (and even commoners can have them too). Even if someone didn't have one for whatever reason (it is possible) then by the time they were worthy of being called a title they would have acquired a surname, even if they have to make it up.

Thoth is probablty right about Master in terms of official etiquette, though there is a difference between the use of the word Master in respect of a noble title and in respect of a guild or craft title or an academic title...

It is sometimes appropriate to refer to the sons of gentlemen as 'Master', especially when they are younger than their majority. This is usually Master First name.

In the regency, daughters were named Miss and either surname (if eldest daughter) or first name if one of the younger. So, the eldest daughter in Pride and Prejudice is called 'Miss Bennet' whereas the heroine, who is the second sister, is referred to as 'Miss Elizabeth'

Academic titles, in theory you can be referred to as Master if you have a Master's degree but I don't think this has ever been used much if at all (which is why I cannot go round insisting people refer to me as Master Lascelles like some people I know with PhDs do :) ). So I am merely plain old Mr Lascelles unless I am talking to a convention of Doctor Who fans :)

In guilds the term Master may refer to a high ranking craftsman who has achieved the highest recognition in their guild in terms of the skill they display in their craft. I am not aware of a convention in this (but could be wrong) as I suspect such things are purely internal matters and there are possibly rules within the guild to discuss how one addresses a Master...

Now, the fact is you are clearly contemplating a fantasy world and so the specifics of real world titles mean less than what works for your story. You can decide that it is Master First Name or Master Surname or Magister or Maestro (both alternate names for Master in different languages) or Delactryn (a random title I just made up) or whatever. No one is going to criticise you for making that decision (though they may question the logic of it, but if you have researched well and have reasons for everything you can usually answer most such questions...). This is assuming, of course, that you are writing a fantasy (your comments about it being 'a bit like Game of Thrones' suggests this is the case) rather than an historic novel set in an actual period in Earth's history... if the latter then you had better be prepared for more nit picking from history buffs* :)


*Trust me on this... my wife said that she was more offended by the recent new series of Robin Hood (which had shocking historical inaccuracies) because it claimed to be set in a specific date in history. Had they not claimed a date or stated it as 'ye merrie olde englande' she would not have criticised it for its inaccuracies so much... :)
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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@thoth

Allow me to point out a bit. I was answering Ultragotha's question.

"primarily European around medieval time, when there was still knights with shining blades and such" helps a bit.

But what flavor of knights in shining armor do you want? The flavor of society is going to be very different if you model it on Germanic culture than if you model it on English or Spanish or French.

The height of the age of Chivalry was... 14th and 15th centuries I think.

Are you looking for titles of Nobility in England? Because they haven't markedly changed since then and you can look all that up in Burke's Peerage. Baronet is a newer title and you wouldn't want to use that but the others should work. Bear in mind that Viscount and Marquis are titles the English inherited from the French and if you want a more "pure" list of English-ish titles you might consider avoiding them.

If you're looking for how to address a Master Craftsman, some searching on Medieval guild structures will help.

If you just want to know how to address some random person with no rank, Goodman and Goodwoman (in England) might work.

You've got some leeway as you're writing Fantasy. But please make it consistent. (I love Lois McMaster Bujold's writing with a passion; but sorting through her use of titles of address in the Vorkosigan universe is ... confusing.)

NOTE that Kings were not called "Your Majesty" until the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V and King Henry VIII adopted that form of address in the early 16th century. Before then, Kings (in England at least) were addressed as "Your Highness". As your WIP seems to rely on history from before then, you might want to take this into consideration when deciding how to address the King or Queen (if you have one).

In my WIP, I'm using
"Your Grace" or "Lord Title" for Jarls
"Your Grace" or "Lady Title" for wives of Jarls
"Your Excellency" or "Lord Lastname" for Thengs
"Your Highness" or "Sire" for the King
"Lady/Lord Firstname" for children of Jarls
"Lord Lastname" for the eldest son of a Jarl.
But my WIP is set far later than yours and relies heavily on an Anglo-Saxon pre-conquest backstory (Fewer secondary titles in the Nobility mean that eldest sons don't pick up a courtesy lesser title from their father.)
 

areteus

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You know even in AGOT, Martin gave his bastards unique surnames.

Yep, in a similar model to that used by Pratchett for orphans adopted by guilds (i.e. Clockson indicates an orphan adopted by the Clockmaker's guild)
 

Flicka

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And you will always have surnames where there are titles in general. Even commoners will be named at the very least for the village they come from (Bob of Hallam) or their profession (Bob the Carter or John the Smith) which will later evolve into proper surnames (Bob Hallam, Bob Carter, Bob Smith). Nobles and educated gentlemen will have surnames based on where their lineage comes from.

Sweden in the Middle Ages didn't have family names or 'last names' in any true sense, just patronymal last names. You'd be Firstname Father'sFirstname'sSon. Like if your father was Knut and you were Sven, you'd be Sven Knutsson - regardless of social status. Certain major noble families had family names that reflected their shieldmarks (or vice versa), but those weren't used as names - Sven Knutsson could belong to the Oxenstierna family, but he'd only be known as Herr Sven (or Sven Knutsson when talked about). Lots of noble families never developed family names and in history books they're just referred to as their shieldmarks - like Three Stars And Crescent, but that's just our way of keeping them straight - they never used those. Ordinary people didn't generally start using set family names until around 1900.

Just an example of a slightly different naming tradition.
 

Deb Kinnard

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IMO you need to firm up your fictitious setting, at least in your mind. Usages in Saxon England were different than in 14th century England. They may or may not have used "master" for a man who was not recognized as respectable in his chosen trade. To the best of my knowledge, goodman was not used until quite late in the Renaissance. The use of Hlæford and Hlæfdige would've died out sometime after 1066, and been replaced by seigneur and madame. I don't doubt quite a few blows landed on Saxon flesh from their parvenue conquerors when the Saxons made errors.

My point is, if you firm up your thinking about when/where, your naming scheme will become internally consistent, and that's what you're aiming for, not necessarily absolute historical accuracy. If you decide British, that's fine, if Swedish or French or something like it, that's equally defensible. Just make sure it's consistent.
 

jaksen

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Take what you like from this thread and your own research, create your own system. Write it down, a few notes, then go from there.

If it's a fantasy world, base it a bit on reality, yet make it your own.

That's what I would do - and have done.