Let's talk Story

wonderactivist · Apr 30, 2012

We have a new, NY Times bestselling author in my town. :hooray:

(No, not me, I only wish.) Her book is self-pubbed and a hot romance. By all accounts, it's no feminist or literary manifesto but IS a great story. Reviews of it say everything from "It's my fave book in years," to, "I hate myself for reading it, but can't put it down."

Sure the book's really sexy and that's a great art in itself, but reading it reminds me of another aspect of the book that I don't think we talk about enough: the story that sometimes gets lost in revision ... or maybe it wasn't there to begin with? This self-pubber did one thing for sure, she built a powerful story and was able to keep it intact by editing only lightly. Personally, I think any imperfections in the text only accentuate the gritty tale.

What are your thoughts on "story," how to construct it, preserve it, and how to make it un-put-down-able?

Thanks,

Lucie

Once! · Apr 30, 2012

Well said. I sometimes think that we obsess too much about style and neglect the importance of a good story.

For some reason, Michael Crichton comes to mind. Never really impressed me as a stringer-together-of-words, but what imaginative and topical plots.

Bufty · Apr 30, 2012

I'm not sure exactly what you expect to see in responses here.

Your question covers the whole craft of writing.

LAgrunion · Apr 30, 2012

To me, there are two kinds of books/stories that grip me, that are hard to put down.

One is the plot-driven story. It has an intriguing premise, and I want to keep reading because I want to find out what happens next. Suzanne Collins's Hunger Games does that for me.

The other kind is the story that goes beyond the superficial. It touches me deeper with emotional heft. This too makes me want to keep reading. Jodi Picoult's My Sister's Keeper does that for me.

KellyAssauer · Apr 30, 2012

wonderactivist said:
What are your thoughts on "story," how to construct it, preserve it, and how to make it un-put-down-able?

Excellent writing makes it un-put-down-able for me and
the story comes second. It has to be that way, because we've told every story there is to tell. It's like watching the evening news once a year, all the stories are the same, only the names have changed...

This is why I lean more toward books where the characters are the story, but don't listen to me, I'm in the minority.

Forlorn Radiance · Apr 30, 2012

I love stories. I read because I want to see something the author sees. Solid writing and style can help the author depict his image more clearly, but at the end of the day, why would I bother to read the most well crafted, structurally sound book ever written, if it were written only to be "good writing". There are tons of technical books out there.

That being said, Brent Weeks' "Night Angel Trilogy" was a recent book series that came to mind when I read your post.

shadowwalker · Apr 30, 2012

I think, in many cases, the story does get lost in worries about POV, tense, flow... all the technical details. And it is, perhaps, why there are writers out there in Bestselling Land that others scratch their heads over - how could they possibly be popular/considered good/successful? And it's typically because story trumps everything.

sunandshadow · Apr 30, 2012

I don't think revision tends to damage story, so I'm a bit puzzled by the suggestion of that in the original post. The goal of revision is to clarify and polish the presentation of the story, including by adding small amounts of new material to strengthen whatever theme emerged over the course of the first draft. I'm not really picky about imperfections in the text - I'll ignore misspellings and an awkward sentence here or there if there aren't too many - but I don't think they can possibly be considered "beauty marks".

Kerosene · Apr 30, 2012

I would rather read a book made up of interesting characters than a good story.

Nobody watched House for the medical stuff. We watch it (did, canceled) to see what Hugh Laurie would do.

As a writer, I can't read writing that doesn't make sense or pisses me off. Most, if not all of the books I might read cause me to cringe and break from the story when I see the author change tense, shift POV or anything else.

Character = Story.
So, good characters = good story.

On writing, write what you need to say. Make it clear and precise. If there are problems, work them out. If there are imperfections, either polish them to be a asset or ripped them out of the text.

(Oopsies doesn't made good writings.)

There is no beautiful diamonds with faults. Only faultless diamonds. So polish when faultless and when you're knee deep in battle and can't find the enemy, when you know they are out there, cut yourself out of the jungle and say it's finished. If you can't find the enemy, you'll end up wasting bullets. After, if the enemy show themselves, fire if you can, but if there is already a treaty (publish, out in the world) don't bother. It's part of history now.

amboyleauthor · Apr 30, 2012

Glitches in the prose usually distract me when I'm reading. I tend to analyze the writer's style and focus on the "mistakes," and that takes away from my enjoyment of the story. That being said, though, there are exceptions to every rule. If you've ever read Christopher Moore, he breaks about every writing rule in the book. Yet his stories are so gosh darn entertaining that I don't mind the mistakes and, after a while, don't even notice them.

It's true though that for some writers, focusing on the rules can detract from their ability to weave together an interesting story. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "dance like nobody's watching." Well, from a writer's point of view, I say "write like nobody's reading," at least for the first draft. This way, you're sure to capture the essence of the story before the editing begins.

JKRowley · Apr 30, 2012

It is tension that makes a book something I cannot put down. A good storyteller keeps me engaged in the story and on the edge of my seat.

Daniel.Trujillo.D · Apr 30, 2012

For me, characters are the most important aspect of the novel. I could have before me the most amazing story ever, with a perfect mix of mystery, romance, suspense and drama, but if the character's aren't doing it for me, I won't stick along for the ride. Meanwhile, I could be reading a story about a man simply eating two pounds of Gouda cheese, but if I find this character fascinating —however the author manages to make that possible—, I'll gladly continue reading about this man's bout with cheese or about any future dairy product-related encounter he may have.

DidiBlue · Apr 30, 2012

Two words. TENSION and CONFLICT. In every scene and on every page. In every line of dialogue, even in the body language. Two dogs, one bone. Always. I don't believe in having a protag and an antag so much as having characters with strongly opposing desires and goals.

The basic plot is that Character A needs Object B, and s/he will do anything to get it. The resolution is that s/he either gets that thing, or s/he doesn't. That's why we keep turning the pages.

LAgrunion · Apr 30, 2012

I understand why many writers care about the quality of the writing. It's their craft. They spend countless hours honing it. They care tremendously about HOW the words come out. I appreciate that.

A good storyteller, however, is different from a good writer. I reckon many, if not most, of the mainstream commercial audience care little about the quality of the writing. They just want to read a good yarn.

Look at the current phenomenon Fifty Shades of Gray. I've read or heard from a few people that, yeah, the writing is not all that (some say it sucks), but for some reason they can't put it down. A quick troll of the internet discussions pretty much confirms that impression - it's a compelling read, but not great writing.

I haven't read the book myself (though I plan to), so I don't have an opinion yet. But I've heard similar reaction to many other "can't put it down" bestsellers in the past, e.g. Twilight, Da Vinci Code...

wonderactivist · Apr 30, 2012

Thanks for all the great thoughts, guys. And keep 'em coming if you can. Bufty, I know it seems really broad and that's because it really IS what our craft is about, but we usually don't discuss it much.

LAgrunion, the bestseller in my town is actually similar to 50 Shades, though it leans more romance than erotica. DidiBlue, Daniel, JK and Will I also believe in living characters clashing together. Seems like the resulting tension, and those unpredictable true moments, make the story.

amboyleauthor, I just LOVE this: "I say 'write like nobody's reading,' at least for the first draft. This way, you're sure to capture the essence of the story before the editing begins." I'm going to frame that.

Forlorn and sunandshadow, I should clarify that I'm not trying to imply that good writing is bad for stories, just that sometimes the story can get lost in the edits and revisions. Like shadowwalker, I often pick up best sellers and wonder whether the author would have been pubbed if that was his first book.

Kelly, we agree on characters, but I have to disagree on the idea that all the stories are just being retold. I've seen the ads for a "book of all the plots" too. And maybe I'm wrong, but I think if you write character-driven stories, your plots will be unique. Like Michael Chrichton's (as Once pointed out). The story isn't the plot anyway. It's the convergence of characters, plot and themes. To me, it's the universe of the book.

Totally loving this chat. To me, there is a difference between a storyteller and a writer. I want to be both, but I think to do that I have to focus on the story part. Maybe that's why some people find QLH so intimidating. Because it requires you to focus so succinctly on what your story is really about. And that isn't always the main plot.

Warm regards,

Lucie
who is nervously pasting up a full tonight

jjdebenedictis · Apr 30, 2012

Man, I hate typos. No, they won't stop me from reading onward, but they kick me out of the story and remind me I'm reading a book, every time. I resent that.

Imperfections are not a merit badge of authenticity. They're still flaws. The book would have been better without them.

Cliffhanger · Apr 30, 2012

jjdebenedictis said:
Man, I hate typos. No, they won't stop me from reading onward, but they kick me out of the story and remind me I'm reading a book, every time. I resent that.

Imperfections are not a merit badge of authenticity. They're still flaws. The book would have been better without them.

I gotta agree. Typos aren't street cred, they're mistakes. Mistakes the author or the editor should have spotted as professionals. Letting these slip and trying to claim them as a badge of honor just reinforce the 'self-published books are crap by folks who can't hack it at real publishing houses'. I've read amazing books by self-published authors and crap from New York, I know there's no real difference save in the supposed professionalism. Be professional, work like a professional.

Libbie · May 1, 2012

Eh -- sometimes I'm in the mood to read a tight-paced book I can't put down. Sometimes I'm in the mood to read Annie Dillard and get all weepy over how amazing and touching her sheer word-power is. Not much on plot, is ol' Annie, but damn, that chick can write a gorgeous sentence.

Both kinds of writing, and all stops in between, have their place in the world.

In terms of what makes for good STORY, I agree with DidiBlue. Tension and conflict.

aikigypsy · May 1, 2012

The idea that revision interferes with story is contrary to my experience. As a writer, plot is what I struggle with most, so when I revise I'm trying to strengthen the story, more than cleaning up language. Not that the language doesn't need a little brushing up, but it's secondary until the final pass revision.

BethS · May 1, 2012

DidiBlue said:
Two words. TENSION and CONFLICT. In every scene and on every page. In every line of dialogue, even in the body language. Two dogs, one bone. Always. I don't believe in having a protag and an antag so much as having characters with strongly opposing desires and goals.

This.

DennisB · May 2, 2012

Getting off topic, here, I guess, but I have trouble finishing a book if I see writing problems. I'm pretty anal when it comes to dialogue. And, unfortunately, I tend to be very, very conscious of writing style, as opposed to just reading.

Boyle: Isn't what House does, and how he reacts, in large part "the" story?

Let's talk Story

wonderactivist

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

LAgrunion

not to be taken seriously

KellyAssauer

The Anti-Magdalene

Forlorn Radiance

Thick skin:Check. Published book:?

shadowwalker

empty-nester!

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Kerosene

Your Pixie Queen

amboyleauthor

Reincarnated Newbie

JKRowley

Daniel.Trujillo.D

DidiBlue

Penmonkey

LAgrunion

not to be taken seriously

wonderactivist

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

Cliffhanger

Libbie

Worst song played on ugliest guitar

aikigypsy

BethS

DennisB