Thrown weapon effectiveness

1) It's fiction, and Fantasy, so you get some leeway.

2) Hand-propelled weapons aren't very effective at killing. Even bows and crossbows are no where near as accurate and effective as portrayed in most fantasy. There is a reason people switched to gunpowder after all (and even a modern weapon cannot kill very reliably in one shot, unless it's at very close range).

Main factors to consider: range, armour, and how much you feel you need to adhere to 'realism' in a Fantasy.

The thing with knives and hatchets and axes, they require a rotational period. So there is a point in their rotation, where the handle is as likely to strike as the point. (One of the nice things about the 'throwing stars' - lots of points. Same for your kpinga - but it still has a handle on it.)

I have friends who are professional knife throwers.(It's how they make their living) They are really, really good at judging the distance from where they are, to the target, and how many rotations it will take, and whether or not they need to throw from the point, or the handle.

They tell me, it's damn near impossible to hit someone who is in motion coming toward or away from you. If you do - it's pure luck.

Now then, creeping up on someone, throwing the knife into them at a distance while they stand watch - sure, they could to it. In the midst of a moving battle? 50-50 chance of success - for the good ones. (Of course, a really heavy axe or hatchet aimed at a head, could also knock someone out with the handle or body of the head.)

Thrown weapons (spears) were fairly effective - used for hunting for thousands of years. You can add something like an atalatl - a stick with a cup on one end, attached to the butt of the spear. This increases the power of the throw. The tennis ball throwers for dogs utilize the same approach. An atalatal will increase the effective velocity of the spear to about 90 miles per hour. (150hmh)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl


Javelins and Pilums were fairly effective as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin

A skilled knofe thrower can be very effective, but such people are rre. The Romans were effective with javelins and Plumbatae, but those were from masses of soldiers, where some of the weapons had to hit. I am surprised that plumbatae didn't become more popular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbata

There is a technique where knives can be thrown straight (not rotating) over middling-short distances WriteKnight.

Still, hitting a critical organ is the hard part. Most targets will live for a while after being hit. Just look at Congresswoman Giffords. Shot in the brain and she survived (mind you, with modern medical intervention).

Absolutely no way a thrown weapon at any kind of range gets you better than 50-75% instant kill. No matter the skill of the user. If the enemy is wearing any kind of armour it just makes things harder.

Mostly, with thrown knives, what you've done is 1) you've disarmed yourself, 2) you've armed your opponent, and 3) you've pissed him off.

Regardless of what you've seen in the movies (e.g. the James Coburn character in The Magnificent Seven), you really can't throw a switchblade or similar hard enough to penetrate bone. You'd be hard-pressed to stab hard enough even if you held the weapon in your hand. Most vital organs are surrounded by bone. Organs that aren't protected as well are usually covered with layers of tough muscle, and/or aren't instantly fatal. You may hit someone in the liver or the kidney, and they may bleed to death -- an hour from now. Plenty of time for them to both raise the alarm and walk over and kick your ass.

I'm told that shuriken and throwing stars were used to distract an opponent by making him duck or blink, giving you time to close the distance to effective hand-to-hand range, or make a retreat. A handful of change tossed at someone's head has the same effect, and is just about as lethal.

For lightly armed travelers I think that javelinsor plumbtae would be best. They had enough weight to be effective, and those small throwing axes would be about as good.

Hurlbats, franciscas, arrows, rocks and so forth are designed to make advancement of the opponent more difficult by injuring but not killing. The heavier weapons (spears, hammers, swords) were the ones that killed. For a traveller, the spear is the easiest weapon to carry and maintain. Projection weapons would be the bow and arrow.

Grenades... Yes, seriously.

Grenades have been in documented use since the 15th Century - perhaps even earlier in China. Do some searching online - there's a lot of information out there.

Do you think that 15th century grenades were efficient killing devices?

If your up for doing a little inventing- as opposed to adhering to actual historical weapons- I've got two suggestions for a fantasy story.
The first would be a type of bolo such as South American cowboys use, but studded with perhaps sharpened sticks or tacks- almost like a ball and chain flail but in miniature and triplicate. Easy to pack a bunch of them without a lot of weight or volume.
The second idea is a boomerang (the non-returning type) but sharpened either on the points, or as a blade edge- or both. A lucky hit could slit a throat, a good stick would cause a lot of blood loss and weaken the enemy. Maybe aimed at the face or hamstring. Again, easy to pack a dozen of them without slowing you down, and if you survive the battle, you could retrieve them to rearm yourself.

Drachen Jager said:

Do you think that 15th century grenades were efficient killing devices?

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Yes, but normally they were best at killing the grenadier.

Okay, already posted on a couple of other combat related threads so thought I'd chime in here as well. I'm a contributing editor at Black Belt Magazine so have a bit of experience in the close combat field.

The first thing is differentiating between the "possible" and the "probable" when talking about something like this. Yes, any thrown weapon, even a baseball, can potentially kill someone, though it's not likely. A thrown knife would almost never have better than a 50% chance of killing someone, and even that high a percentage is unlikely. Hatchets might have a little better success rate since they are heavier and could, potentially, crush someone's skull if you hit them in the head.

You also have to keep in mind, there are only a few spots you can stab someone, even with a hand held knife, that will kill the person quickly, say in under 10 seconds (and yes, I do know far too much about this stuff for my own mental health). Also, most of these places you would have to penetrate several inches, not even counting going through clothes or armor, so the knife you use can't be a small one. I doubt even an expert knife thrower, in the midst of combat, would stand a decent chance of doing do fatal damage.

That being said, as someone above pointed out, knives and small bladed weapons are sometimes used in various martial arts as distractions to close the distance on an opponent (you would, of course, be holding another knife or sword in your hand to finish the opponent). You might want to Google a group called Sayoc Kali, a Filipino style that specializes in this tactic.

Also, one major exception to this rule is if the knife blade were coated with poison, something that has been used historically. However, most of these poisons would not kill or disable a person instantly, they would only insure that, win or lose, he suffers from the effects later on. However, since you're writing in a fantasy setting, you could certainly come up with a fast acting poison.

Final note, I believe a knife rotates 180 degrees for every 8 feet it is thrown. In other words, if you want to hit somebody standing 8 feet away from you, you'd have to hold the tip of the knife and throw it with the handle facing the target. At 16 feet, you'd throw by holding the handle and having the tip pointing at the target. But I'm not an expert on throwing and it's possible the size or weight of the weapon might cause variations in this.

Hope that helps.

Um. So, I just feel the need to point out that if your thrower is a ninja, they are gonna kill cause that's what ninjas do. If this is a fantasy, you could be dealing with ninjas. If you needed to be.

Slings, as in David and Goliath?

Also consider hoops and lassos. Hoops for their ability to be lit on fire and lassos for their ability to act as snares. Effective for taking down riders and cavalry.

If you're trying to be quiet behind enemy lines, how about strangling with a garotte?

Glad I could be of help, PPartisan. Also, Ultragotha makes a good point about, if this is commando stuff behind enemy lines, it would likely be "silent" killing. Besides strangulation, a knife could be used. But that is a whole different realm of using a knife - one that it's probably best not to get too involved in describing in an open forum. But suffice to say, commandos, even in ancient times, would not have been too involved in open combat with an enemy but would have looked to do quick raids and, by necessity, would probably try to kill silently and quickly since they'd likely be outnumbered.

Don't want to be spammy here but I just posted an article on my site about what makes a great literary fight. Might be of interest to you and others who are looking to write some close combat scenes. Link is in my signature. Article was posted May 3. Good luck with your book.

Drachen Jager said:

There is a technique where knives can be thrown straight (not rotating) over middling-short distances WriteKnight.

Still, hitting a critical organ is the hard part. Most targets will live for a while after being hit. Just look at Congresswoman Giffords. Shot in the brain and she survived (mind you, with modern medical intervention).

Absolutely no way a thrown weapon at any kind of range gets you better than 50-75% instant kill. No matter the skill of the user. If the enemy is wearing any kind of armour it just makes things harder.

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Most of this simply isn't true. Nothing is 100%, but you seem to know very little about weapons, including firearms.

Little less of the personal comments, little more of the evidence to back up your opinions please.

There's a Sikh weapon called a chakra (or chacra or chakram or chakar) which is a kind of a throwing disk or ring. It about 5 to 12 inches, 1/2 to an 1 1/2 wide with the outer edge sharpened. You hold it between the thumb and first finger and you throw it. It would not be the only weapon that you'd use but would be the one you'd use at a distance before you'd come in and finish the job with another weapon. They are not designed to take off a head.

Wow. I may not be the original poster, but a lot of this information is incredibly useful to my WIP as well. You guys tend to know your stuff.