How long did it take?

A very fortunate and gifted few are lucky but for the great majority of the unwashed learning the craft consists of a mixture of determination and stamina and resolve and dedication and drive and patience and frustration and reading and writing and writing and reading...and hard work for as long as it takes.

And by the by...the learning never stops.

Join the club - oh, you already have - .

As long as it takes.

Sorry but it does. There is no set time limit for learning. As Bufty says, learning is for a lifetime.

But that doesn't mean that writing will take a lifetime.

I started my first novel a few months ago. 100,000 words later I can't believe how much I've learned. My original plot has gone through many changes, which has meant a lot of 'wasted' writing, but the result (so far) is much better than I originally envisioned.
Next time I'm sure I'll be able to outline my plot more accurately on the first try. And the time after that, even better.

Sometimes it seems like I can feel the skills refining. The more I write, the faster the progress. I don't know the last time I grew so much. Like my whole life I've been a compressed bud, and only now, learning the craft of writing, have I begun to blossom.

So I can't really answer your question.
Just keep going. Enjoy the process unfolding.

celticroots said:

...Any advice would help.

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Stop reading books about how to write: just tell your story the best way it feels to you. Forget about following so-and-so's ten or twenty or fifty tips to plot construction. Worry about that later, if you have to, during revisions. The main thing is to write the damn book without cluttering your mind and impeding your progress with a lot of questionable advice that may work for some writers but won't for you.

If you're the kind of person who likes stories with a moral, you can see a plot as an argument between two or more points of view, which are represented by characters. (Characters don't have to be people, a setting or paranormal force such as a curse which affects the other characters can also be considered a character.) The progress of the story collects the various points into one unified argument and the strongest argument against it, which clash dramatically at the climax. The way things turn out, with rewards and punishments distributed to the characters, is how the author makes the final persuasive statement about which side of the argument was right.

celticroots said:

I am learning that series of events (this happened then this happened, etc) isn't a plot. A plot, from my reading, is about a protag who has a goal (something concrete that they can work toward) and an antag who gets in the way of working towards said goal. There also has to be a reason why the goal is crucial to the well-being of the protag in some way, and a reason why he/she can't give up on reaching the goal.

It could be that I am totally wrong too. Lol.

Any advice would help.

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You may be overthinking this. I think of plot as a series of scenes. It is what happens in the novel. What you are describing above adds conflict and tension to the plot, which are important in telling a good story. Your readers need a reason to keep turning pages.

Donald Maass has an excellent chapter on tension in his "Writing a Breakout Novel" book.

I think learning about the craft is a lifelong journey for a writer. I hear many people notice growth in published writers' works, and preferring their later novels because the storytelling improves.

It is easy to feel like a failure, but you are not a failure unless you give up and stop writing.

Keep working. Keep learning. Keep writing. It is a frustrating journey, but the process feeds the soul.

I have zero data to back this up but for some reason I want to say three years with more gradual improvements after that. Reading how-to books and essays on writing was very helpful in learning about different approaches to writing and I still enjoy them for inspiration. There's something about a good how-to book that makes my want to put down the book and start writing. (The best books are always a slow read because of this.) I don't see myself giving up experimenting and trying new things. Hopefully I will keep growing as a writer for years to come.

I recommended John Vorhaus' The Comic Toolbox for it's clear, thoughtful and commonsense approach to plotting. I'm not a particularly comedic writer but the book was very valuable regardless.

I think the best way of learning to plot is by reading - a lot. And by this I mean literary too. Read ones that are known for their break-neck plots, and those who are much slower. Understand what is meant by a 'saggy middle', and pacing [fast-pacing and 'breather' scenes.]

And most importantly, write. You can't learn to be a good writer by reading the theory, there isn't a magic spell hidden in the end notes.

Well, I'm never going to stop learning how to improve my writing. As for how long it took until I felt I was "good" at writing, that's a hard question to answer. I sold the first short stories I ever wrote, so I doubt I ever went through a stage where I was absolute shit at it, unless you count the fiddly writing I did as a kid/teenager. I'm sure that was absolute shit. Once I decided I was going to write seriously, though, I was producing stuff that found a paying audience quickly.

I'm not saying that to brag; just to point out that everybody reaches that point at different times and in different ways. I think a lot of my positive attitude toward my own writing comes from the fact that I have fun when I write; I'm not pressuring myself (most of the time); I never expect myself to get it right the first time or the tenth time around; I never expect that what I write today will be kept in revisions later. I just let it flow and see what happens, and work with whatever comes. Fluidity like that, I think, allows you to have a different perspective on your writing from what I often see discussed on the forums here (and in my writers' group), where writers so often feel that they need to get it right, or play to a certain theme, or sound like X writer or...whatever holds them back from just enjoying the process.

...I still haven't sold any of my novels, though, and not for lack of trying!

It has taken at least nine years of writing all the time (since I was 13) for me to be mostly sure that I can produce something decent as far as writing a thing down. Structuring and plotting the thing though is still a work in progress, but I think I grasp the concepts even if my execution is questionable (mild way of putting it). Every project seems to generally be better than the thing before it and I have written so very much crap, and all of that crap was necessary to the learning process. Conclusion: it is on-going with at least nine years behind me, although, a very many of those years my brain wasn't really fully formed and I thought I was so very smart... take all that for what you will

There's no time limit or point when you stop learning. There's just writing. And them writing some more.

Just keep at it and keep learning. A plot is an MC with a definite goal versus the antagonistic force opposing him/her. Good plots follow a classic structure of plot points with rising action, followed by a climax and resolution.

Learning how to write a decent plot can certainly be harrowing for many (like most). I'm one those apparently rare types that finds (relatively) little problems with plot and story arc outlining. Not to say I don't have anything new to learn. I wrote my first WIP, went back a few times to correct the writing-craft portions and then realized I had a gaping hole that needed correcting, forcing a re-write.

As far as definition is concerned, I'd have to agree that plot is more over-arcing than just a series of actions and scenes the characters deal with. It is the overall reason for the journey, the reasoning behind undertaking the quest (cliche fantasy term, I know - insert whatever you want to call the ultimate goal), and their reactions and reasoning for said reactions that drives the story forward. Fail to explain how the character got from point A to B and the decision factors that led to him choosing path 1 over paths 2+ are more important in supporting the overall plot.

Personally, linking an overabundant imagination and the ideas for certain scenes, characters and dialogue sequences comes down to having a notebook handy for those ideas that pop into the noggin. Ideas typically coalesce thereafter. As an aspiring genre writer, this may be an easier feat than for other categories.

I actually wrote a post on the following link in my blog, more as a personal reminder to always keep the readers in mind when dealing with plot and the actions that drive the story. If you've ever suffered through the Star Wars prequels (shudder), this series of videos is a crash course in plot and character development in a movie context. It's also just beslubbering hilarious.

(Language Warning)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI

What benefitted me most as a writer were the few improv comedy classes I took. I started seeing how plot develops naturally from a simple situation and grows into something more complex and compelling as characters propel it forward. Every improv scene becomes a narrative. You begin to naturally know what should follow a particular scene and your various plots begin to feel more organic or "right".

There is so much to learn.

I learned how to plan/plot a story. Only took me a few years. Then I discovered I cannot finish a story if I plot it in advance as I lose all interest.

I honestly believe I learned writing even when I stopped learning writing. It takes time.

I was reading that your brain has to make new pathways, which can help you put all your knowledge at the tips of your fingers.

I discovered that words are just symbols for experience, feeling etc and that is why people read. You have to show them something.

It took me forever to learn how to construct sentences. I'm still learning, adding in nuances.

Took me just as long to learn to edit.

Quit now if you can't take it. The only reason I kept going is because I cannot stop writing.

If you want to continue, do whatever it takes.

I wake up at 5am for two hours of uninterrupted writing time. It's hard, but coffee and YouTube helps. Read whatever books you think you need. Do everything in your power to reach that end. When your brain feels like it might implode, take a break for a while. You are still learning here, building pathways, refilling your imagination tank.

I wouldn't take away a single moment of my struggle. Which sounds crazy, I know. I love writing. I love creating. The things that took me so long to learn are worthwhile and everyone writes a different way, so you just have to take that leap.

While you're learning, start believing in yourself. Believe it like the sun will rise tomorrow. Know it. Never let go of it.

Research everything you can on writing. It will help you, even if you don't use it.

Specifically, plot. Well, I think in scenes. Usually, it's a love scene or death scene and I build on from there with characters. A great way I think of it is: you have a character which conflicts with another character internally and externally.

I start writing and just let it all go for a first draft. I don't edit my work until rewrites.

I have a death scene: maybe a young woman witnesses a death in the street. Who's the worst person she could meet? The dead guy's twin brother who wants to date her. Maybe the killers are after him as well, and she doesn't want to be seen with him, but she gets embroiled anyway. All she'd have to do is admit she saw the murder and didn't go to the police about it, and the bad guys would go away, but she can't. She has fallen in love with this sweet guy and it would break his heart.

I just play with 'who's the worst' etc to put this immense conflict in front of the characters.

Oh, and the strength of your villain is the strength of your story.

I've been writing on and off for eighteen years (if you can count being the precocious ten year old who competed in Power of the Pen). I don't find plotting to be a serious challenge for me, but I haven't sold a book yet, so I can probably shut up.

A plot isn't just a string of events. That is boring. There is a journey. But if you think too hard about protagonist and antagonist and themes and metaphor and so forth, your brain gets in the way of your writing.

I personally don't read writing advice books anymore because they make me panic and hate my work. My advice instead is to reread books that you absolutely loved, that made you miss your stop on the train, that kept you up at night, that you couldn't put down. Read them critically to see why they had that effect on you. And do that.

I'm a newbie to the site and also to the idea of having a career as a writer. Take what I have to offer with that in mind.

Writing has always been very easy for me. It doesn't take me very long. Perhaps I'm one of the lucky few who are gifted this way. I don't know how to explain it other than I just have a sense of peace and "aha" when I write.

There are two reasons I think this may be the case. First, I'm a very emotional writer and my passion is in seeking a response from my reader. I write from my heart and for the heart.

Secondly, I have to credit life experience. As I look back over the last 33 years of my life, I'm surprised I'm still standing! During the thick of it, I would always tell myself that one day, these events would make for good writing material. I'm about to find out

Okay, and I guess there may be one other thing in my court. I have ADHD. It's extremely useful in gauging my writing flow, I'm constantly thinking about new things, and I'm able to do a lot in a short amount of time. If it keeps my attention, then it's likely to keep a reader's attention. Perhaps it's a secret power? LOL

Honestly, I think you may be over-thinking it all. Granted, I'm a nobody. For me, I've never thought about writing technique over that which we were taught in 2nd grade. I'm not interested in being the kind of writer that a textbook is necessary to understand my work. If it were, I doubt I'd have the attention span to read it!

All this is offered to you from someone who has yet to write anything to be critiqued. Though, if you have a pen handy, you can ink up my post if you'd like. LOL

Good luck and write, read, and see if you feel it.

celticroots said:

I am learning that series of events (this happened then this happened, etc) isn't a plot. A plot, from my reading, is about a protag who has a goal (something concrete that they can work toward) and an antag who gets in the way of working towards said goal. There also has to be a reason why the goal is crucial to the well-being of the protag in some way, and a reason why he/she can't give up on reaching the goal.

It could be that I am totally wrong too. Lol.

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No, you're not wrong at all. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Improvement takes time, patience, and persistence. And the willingness and ability to learn from mistakes.

I don't think you ever stop learning about the craft of writing, to be honest.

I'm a firm believer in how to books of every stripe, but I also tend to believe they should come later, after you get a few stories down.

I sincerely believe one of the reasons I sold the first draft of the first three short stories I wrote, and the first draft of the first novel I wrote, is because I had no clue what I was doing.

I didn't know you were supposed to do more than one draft, I didn't know one POV from another, and a week before I sat down to write that first story, I didn't know a comma from a coma.

I never wanted to be a writer, never even had a passing thought about being a writer, but I had read about a million short stories and novels, so I sat down to write one solely with the idea of making some money.

All I knew about writing came from the short stories and novels I'd read, and I simply wrote a story based on how those were written.

I started reading how-to books after I quit my day job and started writing full time. How much I didn't know amazed me, and I learned a ton from those books. I learned more when I went off to college.

But I learned to tell a story by reading stories, and by sitting down and writing one.

I really believe that new writers frequently try to take in too much information about technique, POV, and a hundred other things. It all gets confusing, and makes just sitting down and telling a good story much more difficult.

If I knew how much I didn't know, I doubt I would have even considered writing and submitting anything, anywhere. I doubt there's a chance in a million I would have taken up writing as a career.

I do believe in how-to books, and even in college courses. I firmly believe every writer should read the entire 808 section at the nearest public library. But I also believe advanced technique should wait until you're already an advanced storyteller. You're cramming your head with so much minutia that the right things can't just flow out of your fingers.

For now, forget all of it. Just sit down and write a story without worrying about technique, POV, plot, or anything else except a story.

I agree with so much that JAR has said above. I, too, sold my first short without a clue how to do things. I read a magazine full of mystery short stories and said to myself, I can do this.

So I did. Since then I've paid close attention to how my favorites writers tell their stories. I started writing in first person only because I felt I could 'control' things better if everything is seen or experienced by 'me.' But at the time I sent in my first story, I thought there were only two povs - first and the other way (third, omni, etc.)

I do think, too, that many starting writers worry too much about: their education and what kind of degree they should have, or are they worry about technique, voice, how to write action scene, how to write dialogue, and so on and so on.

The best advice is just to read. Read, read and read some more. I always was a voracious reader and read that first short story magazine because I'd run out of books (in the family cottage) to read. I was trying to entertain two little kids on a hot summer day, so I brought them to the beach. They had their pails and swim fins; I had an AHMM magazine.

It doesn't hurt to study technique, of course, or ask writers how they achieve 'voice' or which POV they prefer. But it is also helpful to just sit and write and work at it. What should be uppermost in any writer's mind when he or she sits down to write - is the story.

Story first. Always.

I also am a fan of how-to books; just don't read 500 before finishing your first novel. I applaud your studying your craft and figuring things out.

Writing's a complicated skill, and while 1 in 1000 who try to write will do it very well unconsciously, without working at it (I had a writing student who wrote a brilliant first story, utterly publishable), most of us need to work a lot at it. David Gerrold famously said it takes 1 million words of writing (fiction, he meant, not stuff like blogs and IMs) before you can write a good novel. I might half that million, but the general idea is right. I had finished at least 40 stories, most of them 20ish pages, before one sold, several drafts of most of those, and some abandoned things. If I have to finish 40 novels before one sells, I'm in trouble!

I did get frustrated as a young writer, yes. I remember one day where I actually wept, because the thing on the screen was not the thing in my head, not at all, and I had no idea how to get it there.

I think a lot of people come to writing thinking that because they like to blog and to read and their granny liked the birthday poem, it's going to be easy. It ain't.

Plot is the most difficult element of writing for me. It took several years to get a good grasp of how to do it well. I'd say it probably took five years of work to write a publishable novel.

That being said, I'm still learning. I push myself with every book I write to do something new that I haven't done before. Last time I did one subplot. This time I'm doing three. It's still debatable as to whether or not I've done that with success (at the moment, the answer is an easy "no" but I'm hoping to fix that on rewrites). Next I'm trying with alternating POVs. There are a number of things I want to experiment with and learn.

I think every writer can always improve. The trick is attempting new things that challenge you and learning from those challenges. As to how long it will take you, obviously that's something you'll just have to wait and find out. It's okay, though, because that's a lesson in and of itself. Patience is as important as any other aspect of writing.

Read King's On Writing, watch this video, then write your ass off, and read like a fiend.

I was sucked into the black hole of reading about writing, instead of actually writing, for a few years. Don't fall down that gravity well. Learn by doing, not reading about how others do it.

There are quite a few genre specific books out there which are decent enough, but honestly, most of that can be coaxed out yourself by reading a dozen or so top novels in the field and stumbling your way through a few shorts in the genre. Some genres plot is king, others it's the characters who are more important.