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Puddle Jumper
12-29-2005, 10:59 AM
Can aliens exist in Christian fiction?

mdin
12-29-2005, 11:12 AM
Absolutely. There are several books out there about aliens and the bible. Some believe the giants spoken of were aliens.

My-Immortal
12-29-2005, 11:25 AM
Not trying to be rude....and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way at all....but technically speaking, isn't God an alien Himself? I mean, if you think about it, He created the world...He's not "from" this world. I wouldn't consider Him an "Earthling"...

Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the thread or anything - I just wanted to toss that out (again, with no intention of offending anyone).

Take care all -

Puddle Jumper
12-29-2005, 12:00 PM
Not trying to be rude....and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way at all....but technically speaking, isn't God an alien Himself? I mean, if you think about it, He created the world...He's not "from" this world. I wouldn't consider Him an "Earthling"...

Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the thread or anything - I just wanted to toss that out (again, with no intention of offending anyone).

Take care all -
I'm actually referring to aliens being lifeforms from other planets in our mortal realm universe. God is in the spiritual realm beyond mortality so I really am not looking to classify the spiritual realm in that way for this discussion, though if you want to say that you can.

September skies
12-29-2005, 12:03 PM
Can aliens exist in Christian fiction?

I take it you don't mean illegal aliens from Canada or Mexico? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Yes, I believe aliens can exist. Latter Day Saints definitely believe in them (or at least on life on other far-away planets) and so do some Christians.

I don't think this book falls under Christian fiction - but in the book 01-01-00 (RJ Piniero) there is an interesting story combining aliens and religion.

mdin
12-29-2005, 12:15 PM
The Sparrow, too.

MadScientistMatt
12-29-2005, 07:30 PM
I don't see any reason why not. There isn't anything I can think of in the Bible that says that God only created life on Earth.

BTW, C.S. Lewis had some interesting essays on the possible spiritual states of aliens, should they exist. He even had some SF novels exploring different possibilities, including one where an Earthling encounters an alien Garden of Eden and finds himself having to persuade an alien Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Ralyks
12-29-2005, 09:13 PM
Well, they DO exist in Christian fiction (ever read C.S. Lewis's space trilogy, for instance?) so of course they CAN exist in Christian fiction! Now, if you were to ask SHOULD they, I would be hard pressed to come up with a theological reason why they should NOT. There is certainly nothing in the Bible that rules out other lifeforms on other planets, and Hebrews twice talks about the worlds framed/made by God. Why we should presume ours is the only world or we the only sentient beings I do not know. God is infinitely wise and infinitely powerful...frankly, it is a little difficult for me to consider that He would be satisfied with creating just one world, just one race of free-willed, sentient beings.

Of course, the angels are really aliens; inhabitting not a different planet, but a different realm--but I know what you mean, distinct physical beings inhabitting another physical world. I think such other beings probably exist somewhere in the vast universe--but either way, it doesn't much matter or have much relevance to my faith. If such beings do exist, God's plan for them may be entirely different from his plan for the human race. They may not even have required a Reedemer. They may never have fallen (as C.S. Lewis writes it in Perelandra.)

Lyra Jean
12-29-2005, 11:15 PM
I believe aliens exist and I believe that aliens can be used in christian fiction.

Read Ender's Game series. They have aliens in the later books.

There is a short story where a man wanted proof that Jesus was real. He travelled through space and found another planet inhabited by aliens and on this planet their Jesus figure was just crucified and the "apostles" were starting to write everything down. Was the story about aliens, no, but the story used aliens to illustrate the man's disbelief in Jesus very well because he continued searching.

Puddle Jumper
12-30-2005, 03:55 AM
I don't see any reason why not. There isn't anything I can think of in the Bible that says that God only created life on Earth.
I don't believe in aliens, yet I like various movies and tv shows that have aliens in them. But my reason for not believing in them is the Genesis account that says God first created the earth and after He created the earth He created the sun, moon, and stars to give light to the earth, meaning then that the earth is older than the rest of the universe, and then goes through the account of creating life on earth.

That isn't to say He didn't create life somewhere else but I think that would be a bit confusing, because it was the result of human sin that cursed this entire universe. And if all is cursed because of humans, I would think that would be highly unfair to any other sensient (sp?) lifeform in this universe.

I like more C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia where it presents the idea that God may have created other sensient life but have seperate universe's, etc...

I'm not opposed to the idea of aliens but would need proof to believe they exist. It does make sense though to me that we would not be God's only creation. I would think if I had the creative abilities of God, I would create many universe's with many kinds of beings and all that just for the enjoyment of doing so. Like why I dream up stories, I'm creating characters and worlds just for the enjoyment of doing so.

I like what someone I once knew said. If God did create alien life, He didn't find it important enough to mention to us. :p


BTW, C.S. Lewis had some interesting essays on the possible spiritual states of aliens, should they exist. He even had some SF novels exploring different possibilities, including one where an Earthling encounters an alien Garden of Eden and finds himself having to persuade an alien Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit.
Never heard of them. Where might I find them?


Well, they DO exist in Christian fiction (ever read C.S. Lewis's space trilogy, for instance?) so of course they CAN exist in Christian fiction!
Doesn't ring a bell. What's it called? I'm currently reading some C.S. Lewis stuff. Reading through Chronicles of Narnia at the moment, I plan on reading Screwtape Letters later on.

My-Immortal
12-30-2005, 04:40 AM
I like what someone I once knew said. If God did create alien life, He didn't find it important enough to mention to us. :p

Or perhaps we're not important enough to be informed about the alien life...

Puddle Jumper
12-30-2005, 04:50 AM
Or perhaps we're not important enough to be informed about the alien life...
I like that better. Or to say we're not yet ready?

Though I still don't think alien life exists in our universe.

However, a thought I've had about eternity has me wondering if we'll have more of a role than just hanging out in heaven for all eternity in peace and love and no challenges whatsoever. What if God creates other worlds and universe's and somehow we'rer a part, maybe taking a part in their worlds like the angels take part in ours? Maybe?

Or maybe the idea is too far fetched. But considering we know practically nothing about what eternity will be like with God. . . It's the stuff dreams are made of, right?

Robin Bayne
12-30-2005, 04:54 AM
Or perhaps we're not important enough to be informed about the alien life...

Good point!


I think if you write a compelling story and target the right publisher, you can sell an alien story to a CBA publisher.

Betty W01
01-14-2006, 12:11 AM
I think there's so much we don't know for sure that a lot of things may be possible that are even beyond our imagination. Aliens may be one of those things. I hesitate to be dogmatic on anything God has not made a foundational truth.

And Orson Scott Card is a Mormon, so his theology says aliens (beings off other planets) do really exist. Christians just don't know, since it isn't implicitly stated in the Bible Christian beliefs are taken from.

I think if you use Christian principles (like "giving your life for a friend", "monogamy in marriage", "extending help to those in need", "lying is wrong" and so on), you can invent all sorts of worlds and still keep your integrity.

SeanDSchaffer
01-14-2006, 06:14 PM
I voted 'yes,' and my reason for it was that God, being an infinite being that can do almost anything (He cannot lie, according to Scripture, hence the 'almost anything' comment) could have easily made sentient life on other worlds.

Just because the Bible does not say "There is life on other worlds," does not automatically mean there is not life on other worlds.

For this reason, I believe that it is possible to have aliens in Christian fiction. The Bible never says, 'thou shalt not believe in life on other worlds,' so there's no reason in this reader's opinion, to keep aliens out of Christian fiction.

kdnxdr
01-18-2006, 09:23 PM
I thought I would share what I believe, maybe you can use some idea from it:

The scriptures say that God created man a little lower than the angels, so He did create other beings. And, those angels are able to interact with our physical world and according to scripture, do so. But their place of residence is considered the heavens. The scriptures also reference a war in the heavens that is going on, even as we speak. That spiritual warfare involves physical man as well as spiritual beings. According to scripture, when Lucifer was kicked out of heaven and given dominion over the earth and the power of the air, temporarily (which is still in affect), one third of the angels followed him, leaving their heavenly abode in rebellion to God. So, the scenario at this point, according to scripture is that there is humanity, angels, demons and satan as created beings.

Here's my take on the whole thing: According to scripture, man/woman is created in the image of God, nobody else. And, God being the creator has bestowed on man/woman the gift of being able to procreate which is a God act (to create). No other beings are able to do this. I have read many reports of how aliens supposedly kidnapped human beings and then performed experimentation/examinations on them that seemed to focus on the reproductive system. There have also been reports from abductees that they saw what looked to be human children on board some of these spacecraft. Also, there have been reports that women that were abducted while they were pregnant, unexplicably returned home no longer pregnant with no explanation as to what happened. I think the movie "Communion" with Billy Crystal is a very good example of what I'm talking about. That movie was supposedly a true account.

I said all that to say, I believe that the reason aliens would possibly be focused on humanity's ability to procreate is because the aliens can not and desire to be able to reproduce themselves. If they are beings and can cross between dimensions of existence, and they are fallen angels, created by but in rebellion to God, and there is only a finite number of them, I think they are trying to increase their numbers by trying to devise a way to reporduce themselves. I also they are jealous of our ability to procreate. Since, satan's bent is to mock God, it follows that his minions would have the same drive. Also, since satan is under the self-perpetrated delusion that he is going to usurp God's authority, I would think satan et al would be deranged enough to believe that sheer numbers will overwhelm God and so become obsessed with trying to propogate themselves.

I don't know if you can use any of that but thought I would share.

kdnxdr

ps: I think it's important to not that there are different concepts as to what "the heavens" are. This is not just a reference to somewhere "out in space", it has in interesting dimentionality to it.

Carrie Ann Eggert
01-18-2006, 10:19 PM
Here's my take on the whole thing: According to scripture, man/woman is Also, there have been reports that women that were abducted while they were pregnant, unexplicably returned home no longer pregnant with no explanation as to what happened. I think the movie "Communion" with Billy Crystal is a very good example of what I'm talking about. That movie was supposedly a true account.



Ummm...I think you mean Christopher Walken...not Billy Crystal...though it would have interesting to see Billy play such a dramatic part. :)

As for the whole alien/God/Christian theology discussion going on here I have to say that I think that God is an alien and that without realizing it...we are too. Intelligence arrived way too fast for humans without any sort of intervention.
Maybe somebody wasn't too happy with the intervention and wants to find a way to stop it. Maybe a cousin from another world who didn't get a "fair" cut of God's "living will".
Just something to think about.

Carrie:)

kdnxdr
01-20-2006, 02:30 AM
Thank you for the correction regarding the actor in "Communion".

On the God is and alien thing.........The scriptures say that we(humanity) are created in God's image.

Alien means an "other than" image.

The scriptures do not say that aliens are created in God's image, only that God created them.

Actually, we are to cohabitate with God and He refers to us as His children when we take on Christlikeness.

so far what I've read is that Lucifer was a beautiful angel that was created by God that rebelled and was removed from cohabitating with God and will never have that relationship again. Angels who choose to reject God were also removed with Lucifer (who is now satan). Fallen angels are demons, not angels.

satan and demons are committed to doing what they can to entice humans from having a relationship with God.

I, personally, believe that this demonic/satanic activity perpetrated on humanity is part of what we call aliens/alien activity.

"Aliens" are not something like another humanity. There is only one created humanity (albeit that humanity can act pretty alien). And, there are other created beings.

Carrie Ann Eggert
01-20-2006, 09:36 AM
You gave me another "something" to think about.

Thanks!

Carrie:)

Mac H.
01-20-2006, 10:27 AM
>..ever read C.S. Lewis's space trilogy, for instance ?

Never heard of them. Where might I find them?Sheesh. You want everyone to do your thinking for you?

Try: Google [CS Lewis Space Trilogy]

Available second hand from Amazon for $11 USD.

Mac
(PS: If you read the Bible carefully, you'll see that God doesn't bother mentioning the existence of Australia, Quantum Physics, Electricity and Penguins. Since I'm fairly sure penguins exist, there seems no reason to use that logic to disbelieve the existence of aliens)

(PPS: Another poster mentioned the fact that humans are the only beings who can procreate. I suspect that's not true. Penguins procreate as well.)

kdnxdr
01-20-2006, 05:57 PM
In context, human beings procreate, spiritual beings do not. Animals are animals and not the same as human beings. I know evolution teaches differently. Procreation is a God given gift (though humans have a tendancy to use procreation irresponsibly) and animals have been given the ability to procreate as well. According to the physical needs of our humanity, we need them, not just for a food supply, but for their contribution to the ecosystem, for entertainment, beauty and physical service.

Each every person has their own belief system. That's what's so cool about free will which I believe is one of the most under rated characteristics of being human versus an animal.

Angels have free wills. What makes them an angel versus a demon is that they, motivated by love, freely choose to love God. Demons, by free will while they were angels, chose to reject the love relationship with God and as a result lost their place in heaven, becoming demons of rebellion. I don't believe satan encourages free will and he spends his time attempting to undermine free will where ever he can.

Everything that was ever created is, in fact, mentioned in the bible, even all people who ever were born or who will ever be born. Penguins come under the heading of "birds".

kdnxdr

Kevin Yarbrough
01-20-2006, 06:55 PM
Everything that was ever created is, in fact, mentioned in the bible,

Not everything is mentioned in the bible. Dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the bible but they are a lot older than we are.

But let's talk about procreation for a moment. It's a god given gift for us humans, right? What about early humans? Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon? What were they? They procreated, they were human, but they weren't us. Where do they fall into God's plan?

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a Higher Power but I don't buy the creation theory. My take, and this is only my take, is that we evolved and then a Higher Power helped us by pushes in Evolution. A nudge here and an Austrolpetheciene(?) becomes a Neanderthal, another nudge and the Neanderthal becomes Cro-Magnon, yet another nudge and Cro-Magnon becomes Homo Sapien.

Maybe God is like a landlord with many buildings in different cities. He takes care of one building and then goes on to the next city. Maybe one day he will come back, see how we screwed things up and nudge us along in evolution again.

But then again I could be wrong and and could be getting a one way ticket to Hell. I might need to by some Sun Block.

kdnxdr
01-20-2006, 07:26 PM
Dinasaurs are mentioned in the bible as dragons/Levithian.

Do you wear sun block when you stand too close to the fire?

kdnxdr

kdnxdr
01-20-2006, 07:28 PM
my take is take is that, from the first man, and there was a first, humanity has been in a process of de-evolving. And rather than nudges, it's mercy/patience/forgiveness that has kept us from poofing into nonexistence before now.

However, it seems like we're pressing the envelope at this time.

kdnxdr

MadScientistMatt
01-20-2006, 07:55 PM
Dinasaurs are mentioned in the bible as dragons/Levithian.

Do you wear sun block when you stand too close to the fire?

kdnxdr

Or maybe that was a crocodile.

And just try finding an explicit mention of popcorn or a kangaroo there.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-20-2006, 10:36 PM
from the first man, and there was a first, humanity has been in a process of de-evolving.

So, Homo Sapiens are more de-evolved than Neanderthal? Is that what you are saying? We know Neanderthal and all the other earlier forms of man had no spoken language but yet the Bible talks about how God broke up the language, so how do you explain that? We all had one language, as the first man, and then God broke up the languages and then man de-evolved and lost all language and the we evolved again and got back to many languages again. Don't make sense to me.

Creation has to many flaws to be right.
Evolution has to many flaws to be right.
Mix the two and you might have something that could work.

Evolution has been shown to happen in other species, just because it hasn't happened in us in our recorded history doesn't mean it isn't real. Evolution happens on a small scale and our changes have been on a big one. Out of the trees to bipedal. To speech. Farming. Communties. And now we have seen us reach flight and space travel. Those last two within just the last 100 years. Could that be a nudge from God to help us go where he wants us to? Maybe. God works in mysterious ways remember?

kdnxdr
01-20-2006, 11:07 PM
For me, evolution is scientifically, yet still in theory status and has not, in fact, become proven. Unless, I missed something.

And who wrote the book to say that "evolution" is, in fact, linear. All I have to do is read the newspaper, watch tv, observe some fellow humans, and I see barbarianism all around. Look how depraved civilized man can become, instantly. You remove the props of creature comfort and society will get shoved so fast into a new dark age, it will beat any horror book you ever read. What quarantees our so called evolution? That's why our society is frantically racing into the high tech/robotic age.....Nietche's man doesn't exist. For me, I think my favorite book on the subject is "Lord of the Flies". A classic on what we as humans are really made of.

Another book that I found fascinating is called "Genesis in the Chinese Language". As each stroke of Chinese characters are formed they are, in fact, a collection of what is called radicals. These collections of radicals form a symbolic picture that represents the Chinese language. If I'm not mistaken, it is one of the only,if not the only truelly pictographic language that is still used in modern times. The beginnings of the written Chinese language are considered firsthand "snapshots" of those very real observers of what they were trying to convey. It makes for very intriquing reading. And, it's a very small book. For example: The Chinese character for the word "boat" is the combination of 3 radicals that literally interpret to mean 8 persons in a vessel.
Coincidentally, Noah's family was 8 persons in a vessel. The whole language is full of these interesting "coincidences".

At this point, I think you are right.....there are some truths in what is perceived as "evolution" and they do in fact allign with scriptural teaching. And, there are some Christian Scientists, scientists who are Christian (not referring to the denomination), who are scientifically demonstrating the allignment that does, in fact, exist between science and the Christian faith.

I am reading a book, The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil who does believe that humanity has reached it's capacity for evolution and that the next evolution of humanity will be it's integration, literally, into computers and machines, and vice versa, such that we will have to rethink what is the definition of humanity and all the implications that implies. Now, for me, because he is a respected scientist in his field, often quoted even today, and he believes and is scientifically aimed to the promotion of this belief, and his book is non-fiction, well endorsed, that's scary. And, redefining what being human is about IS the next question in our so called "evolution". The monkey thing is pase.

(I saw Kurzweil quoted in the current issue of SEED, a respectable, lay person science journal.)

The average person has no clue where we are with robotics/genetics/computers/nuerolphysics/psychology. Our "next generation" is waited to be revealed. Maybe that will "nudge" humanity enough to realize it's time to start being who we were really created to be.

kdnxdr

kdnxdr
01-20-2006, 11:11 PM
Didn't one of Scwartzennegger's movies have this theme? Total Recall?

Kevin Yarbrough
01-21-2006, 02:27 AM
"For me, evolution is scientifically, yet still in theory status and has not, in fact, become proven. Unless, I missed something."

Off the top of my head a moth in England had changed it's color from white to almost black to mix in better with the background after the start of the Industrial Revolution. Soot was coating everything and it was standing out and becoming easier prey, its color changes, evolved, to a darker one to stay alive. Things like this has happened in other animals as well. Lizards on Galapoagos Islands that learned to swim is another.

Evolution has nothing to do with being a barbarian. Evolution is a trait that helps you survive as a species...I take that back, being a barbarian might be a part of evoluition. It kept us alive and it still does in certain times of need. But you dodged my question. Are you saying we de-evolved from the original man and then evolved back to what God created?

loquax
01-21-2006, 03:19 AM
I don't think there's such a thing as "devolution" or "reverse evolution". We change for the better. It's called natural selection. If barbarianism is better for mankind, then we will evolve to become a better species. One of barbarians.

But that will never happen. With modern medicine, natural selection is destroyed. People with genetic diseases are able to survive long enough to reproduce, and their offspring will carry on these flawed genetics to another, larger generation. Our levels of cleanliness reduce the strength of our immune systems. Our diets are poor, our children are getting fatter.

Basically, our morals have changed "natural selection" to "artificial selection". Seeing as we all think we have a "right" to live, we all will, and we won't ever evolve. Evolution requires people to die because of weaknesses, and if we step in and stop this, humanity will continue to get weaker and weaker until we all die. The end.

Ezy Rider
01-21-2006, 03:24 AM
Boy! Am I way out of my league here?

Evolution was something they taught at school, I missed what it was all about, was studying biology with Miss Walker. Great teacher! Taught me allot. Sigh!

I thought Evolution proved there was no God?

I have enough trouble believing in God anyway, let alone Aliens.

Sorry to anyone who believes in Aliens?

I guess if they come down and kidnap me, I am going to eat my word, not to mention find it all a bit awkward. Oh! So you are real and so is that anal probe, be gentle, at least lube… LUBE! AAAAHHHHHH!

Na! I would never be that lucky.:D

kdnxdr
01-21-2006, 03:34 AM
yes, I'm saying that man, as created by God, de-evolved from what God first created. Initailly, Adam and Eve were covered by the Shakinu (not sure of spelling) glory of God. When they ate the apple and saw they were naked, it was because they were no longer covered with God's glory covering. Then, when they were put out of the Garden, they traded their leaves for animal skins.

It's interesting, and I don't think anyone knows, on either side of the fence, exactly what happened during this period until recorded history.

I know of a true case of a child that was an orphan in Russia. Some Americans adopted the child and after the fact, found out that he was completely, totally, medically blind. He had other sensory deprivaion, developmental issue as well.
The American family got medical attention for the child. The best. After examination, it was determined that his eyes were, in fact, 100% healthy. They did studies and therapies. Through the intense therapies, the child was able to see. The trained the brain to use the eyes. This whole event helped open up a whole new area of research and Time magazine did an article on it called something like "Windows of Learning". It is a medical fact that a child, through sensory deprivation or other developmental failings, can experience "failure to thrive" which usually leads to death regardless of intervention.

No, we have yet no quit being a human being, however, given the "right" set of circumstances, including cases of breeding small gene pools, humans can be altered in physical appearance, mental ability, pysiological abilities. Given a long enough period of this degeneration, all kinds of possibilities exist. For example, when isolated indigenous peoples are taken from their primitive culture, exposed to modernity and education, they learn and even physically change in some way.

I believe we go through transitions depending on alot of factors and given a stretch of factors, as a child raised by animals, or what ever, we are affected. Just goes to show, that being human is very mallable, so to speak, like clay.

What we lost, after the Garden, was our direct one on one relationship with our creator and our covering of His glory.

Going back to that Chinese language thing, it's interesting that the language does express this idea of the covering of man.

When you look at the radicals that form the symbol for light in Chinese thay are "man" plus "fire", a man covered with fire = light. That's so interesting to me. The oldest recorded religion of China which has temple to an unknown God, is recorded in the language. Fire and light are characteristic of that God and His temple. In fact, all the elements of the Genesis story are found there, including man losing his fire covering. Even the temptation story. Cool stuff, to me.

kdnxdr

loquax
01-21-2006, 03:43 AM
Ezy - evolution doesn't prove that there's no God. It just proves that the adam and eve story is fabricated. Although, I don't think we really needed proof now did we http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Ezy Rider
01-21-2006, 03:58 AM
But the other guy just said there was a garden?

Maybe it was planted by Aliens?:Jaw:

kdnxdr
01-21-2006, 04:23 AM
Maybe the garden was planted by God.

kdnxdr
01-21-2006, 04:28 AM
If reality is contingent on one's perception, then, reality is what you make of it. From what I've been reading, whatever holds things together to make them things is fabricated by whomever is the fabricator.

I, personally, choose to believe that God is that fabricator and that his perception of reality is, in fact, reality.

Every person has the free will to choose what ever they want to believe about whatever, including aliens.

Ezy Rider
01-22-2006, 06:31 AM
Yes, I believe aliens can exist.

Aren’t you a cute little kitty, :e2cat: you make me want to believe in aliens and in love.:e2heartbe


I have a great book by Author Isaac Asimov entitled


Extraterrestrial Civilizations:welcome:



To make a long story short, he concluded that there may be 500,000 Alien civilizations in or Galaxy. (Hey we must be one of them)

That is not much really, considering that there are over 300 billion stars in the Galaxy.

So it is mostly empty and there is enough room for us all to live in peace.

What are the chances that we, the two of us were born on the same planet?

1 in 500,000

It is fate, why fight it, we are destined to be together.:e2flowers

kdnxdr
01-22-2006, 07:14 AM
As of today, I am thinking that earth is the only planet I can physically survive on. I haven't heard of any other. That leaves me, as a human, restricted as to where I might survive in the galaxy. I can't even live in every space that makes up my planet. I can't live under water. Can't live too high up, not enough oxygen. Can't live too long underground, need sunlight. It seems to me that, in actuality, to survive, humans need a very specific environment.

kdnxdr

SeanDSchaffer
01-22-2006, 08:09 AM
yes, I'm saying that man, as created by God, de-evolved from what God first created. Initailly, Adam and Eve were covered by the Shakinu (not sure of spelling) glory of God. When they ate the apple and saw they were naked, it was because they were no longer covered with God's glory covering. Then, when they were put out of the Garden, they traded their leaves for animal skins.


....Snipped for Length.


I'd say that I agree with this theory, but only to an extent. I believe that Adam and Eve were not clothed by anything when God made them. The reason I believe this is that the Bible says 'They were naked, and were not ashamed.' I find nowhere in my Bible that says anything about Adam and Eve being clothed with the (don't ask me to spell that word, please) glory of God.

Now, I've heard your theory before, but when you take the word 'naked' and combine it with 'they were not ashamed,' it stands to reason that Adam and Eve were nude, and didn't care that they were nude.

Of course, this is also a theory, just like your theory is. I have no Biblical proof aside from my interpretation of the first couple chapters of Genesis.

Really, it's an interpretation issue here so far as that goes.


Otherwise, though, I agree with the idea that Man 'devolved' over time from the perfect human being that God originally made (with a life-span of eight or nine hundred years after the fall into Sin), to the creature we are today (that can barely make it to one century, if that).

Ezy Rider
01-22-2006, 10:32 PM
As of today, I am thinking that earth is the only planet I can physically survive on. I haven't heard of any other. That leaves me, as a human, restricted as to where I might survive in the galaxy. I can't even live in every space that makes up my planet. I can't live under water. Can't live too high up, not enough oxygen. Can't live too long underground, need sunlight. It seems to me that, in actuality, to survive, humans need a very specific environment.

kdnxdr

Even if there was a planet with an atmosphere consisting of 78 percent nitrogen and 21 percent oxygen, could the immune system handle a zillion new alien germs and bacteria that must inevitably infest it? Or even if another planets atmosphere did contain hydrogen and oxygen, what are the chances that it would be in the exact proportions as on Earth?

The human body does have the ability to adapt given enough time; maybe then we could live on another world, that is at least, Earth like.

The whole concept isn’t that impossible to me.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-23-2006, 10:06 PM
Otherwise, though, I agree with the idea that Man 'devolved' over time from the perfect human being that God originally made (with a life-span of eight or nine hundred years after the fall into Sin), to the creature we are today (that can barely make it to one century, if that).

But this will change, Sean. I was watching a science show on Discovery Health where a guy took fruit flies and did not let them have sex until they reached middle age. They ended up living three times longer than usual and the genes they passed on to their offspring had them living longer as well. Now, as this guy said, the female of our species is becoming more work orientated that she isn't having kids until close her 30-40's and in a few hundred years we might be able to expand our life to 200 years or more. Why is this? Natural selection. When you have procreated and passed on your genes natural selection shuts down, but if you wait until the time it is suppose to shut down it won't because you haven't done it yet.

But kdnxr is still not geting my point. All the other earlier forms of man are hundreds of thousands to millions of years old and according to the bible man is only 6,000 years old. There is no way we could have de-evolved from man to Lucy then evolved back all the way to Homo sapiens. If that is the case then where are the fossils of the first man and the generation where we first started to de-evolve? Did this de-evolution end at Lucy, the scientific worlds Eve?, or did it just stop there and we began evolving again. There has been no proof of any species that ever de-evolved. Species hitting a evolutionary dead end, yes, but not evolving and then de-evolving back to a more primitive form. That would be detrimental to natural selection and would keep the species from survivng since evolution is any "development of a species from its original to its present state." That would be like the first fish coming out of water and growing lungs, move out across land and have future generations have gills. It could kill them. Let's do something on a smaller scale, the moth I mentioned ealrier. It is now darker colored to help survive but it now begins to have white offspring. The species would not survive since they would stand out more and would be easier prey.

We didn't de-evolve. Our life span did get shorter though.

SeanDSchaffer
01-24-2006, 12:48 AM
But this will change, Sean. I was watching a science show on Discovery Health where a guy took fruit flies and did not let them have sex until they reached middle age. They ended up living three times longer than usual and the genes they passed on to their offspring had them living longer as well. Now, as this guy said, the female of our species is becoming more work orientated that she isn't having kids until close her 30-40's and in a few hundred years we might be able to expand our life to 200 years or more. Why is this? Natural selection. When you have procreated and passed on your genes natural selection shuts down, but if you wait until the time it is suppose to shut down it won't because you haven't done it yet.

Cool. Right on.


But kdnxr is still not geting my point. All the other earlier forms of man are hundreds of thousands to millions of years old and according to the bible man is only 6,000 years old. There is no way we could have de-evolved from man to Lucy then evolved back all the way to Homo sapiens. If that is the case then where are the fossils of the first man and the generation where we first started to de-evolve? Did this de-evolution end at Lucy, the scientific worlds Eve?, or did it just stop there and we began evolving again. There has been no proof of any species that ever de-evolved. Species hitting a evolutionary dead end, yes, but not evolving and then de-evolving back to a more primitive form. That would be detrimental to natural selection and would keep the species from survivng since evolution is any "development of a species from its original to its present state." That would be like the first fish coming out of water and growing lungs, move out across land and have future generations have gills. It could kill them. Let's do something on a smaller scale, the moth I mentioned ealrier. It is now darker colored to help survive but it now begins to have white offspring. The species would not survive since they would stand out more and would be easier prey.

We didn't de-evolve. Our life span did get shorter though.


If I could real quickly, I think I might be able to help you out with the definitions here. A lot of Creationists, when we talk about 'de-evolving,' refer mostly to people's surroundings as well as physical characteristics. I've noticed when Creation Scientists talk about how people lived to be 900 years old in the early Old Testament, it generally is inclusive of the idea that the Earth had a better atmosphere and higher atmospheric pressure. If the surroundings are favorable, it is believed that a person will generally have a longer lifespan.

As far as the 'Earth is billions of years old' idea, there is the issue of dating reliability. I can think of at least one dating method that has been, under certain circumstances, proven inaccurate. (Speaking of the Carbon dating method people are constanly referring to on, say, the History Channel, and such places.) If an item, for instance, has been subjected to fire, it would have a higher carbon content than it would were it not, which would result in an inaccurate dating.

Of course, that's one example, and I admit I don't know about other dating methods that I'm sure do exist that might very well be much more reliable. I'm just saying that science as we know it is always changing. What was Scientific Law a few decades ago, could in the next year or two be completely disproven.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-24-2006, 01:51 AM
I'm just saying that science as we know it is always changing. What was Scientific Law a few decades ago, could in the next year or two be completely disproven.

And there lies the crutch of the problem. Science will allow itself to be put under the microscope and be proven wrong, we can't put the bible under this kind of scrutiny because people will not believe the results. It goes against their beliefs, their very foundation. If God did not create Adam and Eve then what else in the bible is wrong?

To get back on track of this thread. God is an alien and he incubated Adam and Eve and dropped them off on this planet as an experiment, he then went back home and got an F on his paper because Boggle Bignehauser did the same experiment and claimed God coppied him. He got grounded for the F and is not allowed the spaceship. When he gets ungrounded he will come here and end his experiment in what we know as "Armageddon".

I'm not serious by the way.

SeanDSchaffer
01-24-2006, 02:09 AM
And there lies the crutch of the problem. Science will allow itself to be put under the microscope and be proven wrong, we can't put the bible under this kind of scrutiny because people will not believe the results. It goes against their beliefs, their very foundation. If God did not create Adam and Eve then what else in the bible is wrong?

You're right. 100% right, in that respect. Most Christians are not willing to listen to what Science has to say. And that is a major problem for people who want to get their beliefs heard. If a person is willing to push something, they must be willing to listen to other people's opinions. At least to listen.


To get back on track of this thread. God is an alien and he incubated Adam and Eve and dropped them off on this planet as an experiment, he then went back home and got an F on his paper because Boggle Bignehauser did the same experiment and claimed God coppied him. He got grounded for the F and is not allowed the spaceship. When he gets ungrounded he will come here and end his experiment in what we know as "Armageddon".

I'm not serious by the way.


It took me a moment to realize you weren't being serious there. I have to admit, you scared me there. Good story.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

kdnxdr
01-24-2006, 07:39 AM
I'm a christian, I'm listening and it's a good conversation. And, an interesting story.

I wonder what was the name of the first evolved couple that decided to have sex, have a baby that was the new up dated version of evolved humanity and how long did it take for that baby to grow beyond puberty and find the first hetro companion that was an also updated evolved person so that they could then start of the next level of evolution? And then it would be interesting to know how long it took for that child to go thru the similar process and that this repeated often enough and with the next evolved mate so that the next level was established so that humanity could then evolve to the next level.

Those are some long odds of getting that whole process going and for it to be successful, if I was placing a bet.

I do however, think the possibility of Adam and Eve being placed on earth, fully grown as an experiment by God, is highly plausible.

But, that's what's so cool about personal belief systems. They are personal as a belief system should be. Some people have belief systems that they hold to be true because if they don't, they are punished by the group they live with. I think it's okay if someone believes in evolution, but because they do, doesn't mean I'm going to and just because I believe a certain way shouldn't be why someone else believes. Each person has to choose what they believe. That's totally cool.

I believe Aliens are fallen angels. There is no other "humanity" "out there".
And, the humanity that is here, is falling apart.

That's why some people, notable scientist's like Ray Kurzweil, believe that humanity has, in fact, reached it's peak of evolutionary ability and that, in fact, the next level of evolution, which he says and proves is happening, is the integration of biological man with machine and machine with biological man such that the legal issues of the future will be contingent on what we as a society define as "human". "The Age of Spiritual Machines" by Ray Kurzweil. He also wrote, "Age of Intelligent Machines".

kdnxdr

Ezy Rider
01-24-2006, 08:09 AM
We are most assuredly biological machines.

Whether we will ever be the Borg or not, I won’t live to see it.

I don’t know about integration between man and machine, but there has been such thing as marriage. A man loved his TV set so much, that he married it, also one guy married his Harley Davison. What kind of kids will they have? A next step in our evolution maybe?




I was watching a science show on Discovery Health where a guy took fruit flies and did not let them have sex until they reached middle age. They ended up living three times longer than usual and the genes they passed on to their offspring had them living longer as well. Now, as this guy said, the female of our species is becoming more work orientated that she isn't having kids until close her 30-40's and in a few hundred years we might be able to expand our life to 200 years or more.



So human lives got shorter because they were having sex earlier?

The human body is far more complex than the fruit flies, so that really doesn’t convince me. They did a test on rats, some they fed just enough to keep alive, while others they overfed. The overfed ones died before their time and the barely fed ones lived considerably longer, and so they think that if we do the same, than we can live longer, but would it be worth it. No, cause it doesn’t stop aging.




There has been no proof of any species that ever de-evolved.



There has never been found any real proof that man evolved from apes or ape like things. Evolution is still a theory that can vary with every new idea that comes along. My science teacher told me, that science can not prove things right, so mach as prove it wrong. I like that.



I do not doubt that there is proof of us being more capable than we are now, the fact that we only use ten percent of our brain, says something or does that mean we have room to grow?



There has also been no evidence of aliens whatsoever, where are they, why can’t we hear them, for if they are out there, it is certain that they could hear us?

Kevin Yarbrough
01-24-2006, 07:59 PM
So human lives got shorter because they were having sex earlier?

The human body is far more complex than the fruit flies, so that really doesn’t convince me. They did a test on rats, some they fed just enough to keep alive, while others they overfed. The overfed ones died before their time and the barely fed ones lived considerably longer, and so they think that if we do the same, than we can live longer, but would it be worth it. No, cause it doesn’t stop aging.

No, I didn't say that was the reason are life got shorter, I was just passing on some info I saw on a science special. Plus, if we underfeed ourselves we will die earlier than if we overfeed ourselves. You see those children in Africa? Your body begins to break down all the muscle and anything it can use for fuel if you don't eat. Most of those kids don't live to be adults. But some scientist are working on some things to help stop the aging process. They say in the next century they will be able to shut it off in your 30's and you could then live to be 100-200 years old. That would be nice huh?








There has never been found any real proof that man evolved from apes or ape like things. Evolution is still a theory that can vary with every new idea that comes along.

Evolution of us from apes is from all of the early forms of man who has more and more features of apes. Is it proven? No, but neither is creationism. My belief is God helped ape evolve into us but I will always keep my mind open to other ideas as to how we got here.

They have a theory as to how the big bang was created, the M theory. Two alternate universes collide into each other and in the process creates a new universe. The math is sound and they say this happens all the time, everyday. But who created the very first universe? And how did another one spawn from it if it didn't have another to collide in to? That is why I believe in a God. I think he set everything in motion and let it all go and sat back and watched.



I do not doubt that there is proof of us being more capable than we are now, the fact that we only use ten percent of our brain, says something or does that mean we have room to grow?

We don't use only ten percent of our brain, we use only ten percent at one time. All areas are stimulated and are in use but not at the same time.




There has also been no evidence of aliens whatsoever, where are they, why can’t we hear them, for if they are out there, it is certain that they could hear us?

The Universe is vast and we have not scanned all of it. It takes almost an hour to communicate with Viking and it is just now past Pluto on the outskirts of our Solar system. If an alien race lived 20 galaxies from us how long do you think it would take to get a message? Not to mention we would have to aim it in their direction and have them recieve it at the exact moment their planet is aligned with ours. Plus you got other planets, asteroids, suns, black holes, that can interfere with the message.

Look at it this way. Say you are going to shoot someone and you set up the gun, the guy is half a mile a way, it is windy and you have a clear shot. You fire the gun and a car drives by. The bullet hits the car, you miss your target. But you can see you did and try again. Try doing this in the dark. You know where your target it but it is pitch black. You set up using landmarks, buildings, cars, whatever and fire. You have no idea if you got the target or not but you leave and move on to the next one hoping you did.

Plus you have no idea how advanced the aliens are. They could be like us in the 1800's. We could be sending them messages but they might not have the capabilities to recieve them yet.

kdnxdr
01-25-2006, 06:33 PM
So, really, any belief in any belief system requires faith. So, in my mind, faith exists because nothing is proven. The question for me then becomes, who you gonna believe, where are you going to invest your faith.

Faith is something that I think comes with the package of being human, there is no way to "not believe" in something. The believer capacity in us has to engage something. Some people only believe themselves. Some people believe that everthing is a result of each individual creating their own reality.

For me, it's simple. Until somebody PROVES something to the contrary, I think God has sufficiently put up the greater proof on every level. And, that in its self is pretty incredible because, there is such a HUGE record of a God in every culture. I've yet to know of a culture that was, in fact, totally Godless. So, then it comes down to selecting a god. I personaly believe that God through Jesus Christ, has left a pretty impressive record of Himself, one that has spanned the globe, not intiated by white people, embraced by a rather large cross section of humanity, across the span of thousands of years. That impresses me. I haven't seen anyone else pull off a campaign that large.

So, for ME, I exercise my free will to choose Christianity. And, I would be very interested to see a belief system challenge the record that has been established. That is my reality. But, I'm open minded.

I've even had a very up close and personal daytime encounter with a UFO that was such a terrifying experience. The thing was huge, not flying away but rather, suspended about 30 feet above mine and my childrens' heads. Beyond doubt, it was a UFO. I have no clue where it came from. It was either extrateresstial or it belongs to the government. Didn't stop me from being a christian.

Flapdoodle
01-25-2006, 07:26 PM
Cool. Right on.




If I could real quickly, I think I might be able to help you out with the definitions here. A lot of Creationists, when we talk about 'de-evolving,' refer mostly to people's surroundings as well as physical characteristics. I've noticed when Creation Scientists talk about how people lived to be 900 years old in the early Old Testament, it generally is inclusive of the idea that the Earth had a better atmosphere and higher atmospheric pressure. If the surroundings are favorable, it is believed that a person will generally have a longer lifespan.

As far as the 'Earth is billions of years old' idea, there is the issue of dating reliability. I can think of at least one dating method that has been, under certain circumstances, proven inaccurate. (Speaking of the Carbon dating method people are constanly referring to on, say, the History Channel, and such places.) If an item, for instance, has been subjected to fire, it would have a higher carbon content than it would were it not, which would result in an inaccurate dating.

Of course, that's one example, and I admit I don't know about other dating methods that I'm sure do exist that might very well be much more reliable. I'm just saying that science as we know it is always changing. What was Scientific Law a few decades ago, could in the next year or two be completely disproven.

If you are going to try to argue using science, it helps to actually understand it first. Carbon dating using radioactive isotopes to determine age, and can be used to age something up to 60,000 years. Fire is irrelevent. The key factor is that all living things consume carbon, and cease to do so when they die. Checking the levels of radiactive isotopes of carbon 14 can give an indication of how old the matter is.

SeanDSchaffer
01-26-2006, 01:21 AM
If you are going to try to argue using science, it helps to actually understand it first. Carbon dating using radioactive isotopes to determine age, and can be used to age something up to 60,000 years. Fire is irrelevent. The key factor is that all living things consume carbon, and cease to do so when they die. Checking the levels of radiactive isotopes of carbon 14 can give an indication of how old the matter is.


Are the people who understand science, only the ones who agree with you, Flapdoodle? I was of the understanding that science can be proven or disproven using experimentation, not by using rhetoric.

It might interest you to know, Flapdoodle, that fire produces carbon molecules. This can throw off, whether you say it can or not, the results in a carbon dating test, because of the increased amounts of carbon in something that has suffered fire.


I suggest before you make your suggestions that everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, to consider that Science does not work according to your personal rules. It works according to experimentation and is never set in stone.

Flapdoodle
01-26-2006, 02:26 AM
Are the people who understand science, only the ones who agree with you, Flapdoodle? I was of the understanding that science can be proven or disproven using experimentation, not by using rhetoric.

It might interest you to know, Flapdoodle, that fire produces carbon molecules. This can throw off, whether you say it can or not, the results in a carbon dating test, because of the increased amounts of carbon in something that has suffered fire.


I suggest before you make your suggestions that everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, to consider that Science does not work according to your personal rules. It works according to experimentation and is never set in stone.

An object exposed to _smoke_ can have its C14 content contaminated as the smoke contains C14 particles that will have a different rate of decay, and the measurements may be out. Similarly, bacteria consume C14 and an object that's been contaminated by bacteria may give a different result.

It's nothing to do with the "amount" of carbon. It's the half-life of the C14 isotope present. Burning something does not affect this.

I know all about science, thankyou (Having a Bsc, Msc and Doctorate in scientific subjects!)

SeanDSchaffer
01-26-2006, 02:44 AM
An object exposed to _smoke_ can have its C14 content contaminated as the smoke contains C14 particles that will have a different rate of decay, and the measurements may be out. Similarly, bacteria consume C14 and an object that's been contaminated by bacteria may give a different result.

....Snipped.


And what produces_smoke_Flapdoodle? I believe it's something I referred to in a previous post. Something we commonly call Fire.

And if smoke, which is produced by fire, can throw off the dating method of the carbon dating system, that means I was correct in that the system is not infallible.


BTW, I never implied you didn't know about science. I simply stated that just because I disagree with you, does not mean I have no knowledge of how it works. Just because you have a college education and I do not does not mean I am ignorant of the basic tenets of science. One of the basic tenets of science is that it can be disproven at any time, by anyone, regardless of how firmly entrenched it is in the belief systems of those who practice it.

I cannot believe anyone who claims to know so much about the way Science works would not admit to that simple fact.

SeanDSchaffer
01-26-2006, 03:07 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to take my leave of this thread. It's obvious to me it's no longer about its originally intended question. It's also obvious to me that one has to have three degrees in every subject known to Man to be allowed to say "I disagree with any of the posters," without being treated like an imbecile for that disagreement.

I came here to learn how to better my writing, not to be treated like an idiot because I disagree with a particular poster.

Have yourselves a wonderful time, and after this post, I am unsubscribing from this thread.

Good day.

Flapdoodle
01-26-2006, 03:13 AM
And what produces_smoke_Flapdoodle? I believe it's something I referred to in a previous post. Something we commonly call Fire.

And if smoke, which is produced by fire, can throw off the dating method of the carbon dating system, that means I was correct in that the system is not infallible.


BTW, I never implied you didn't know about science. I simply stated that just because I disagree with you, does not mean I have no knowledge of how it works. Just because you have a college education and I do not does not mean I am ignorant of the basic tenets of science. One of the basic tenets of science is that it can be disproven at any time, by anyone, regardless of how firmly entrenched it is in the belief systems of those who practice it.

I cannot believe anyone who claims to know so much about the way Science works would not admit to that simple fact.

You said:

"If an item, for instance, has been subjected to fire, it would have a higher carbon content than it would were it not, which would result in an inaccurate dating."

You're trying to backtrack now.

An item being subjected to fire is being burned.
An item being subjected to smoke is not being subjected to fire.
Carbon dating doesn't rely on the amount of carbon present, but the rate of decay of the C14 isotope present. Burning an item doesn't increase its carbon content. It prob. reduces it.

By the way, the amount of error caused by smoke pollution is possibly quite low.

Disprove is not one of the basic tenets of science. It's the philosophy of falsifiability. That is, a scientific theory must have some condition under which is can be shown to be wrong. Intelligent Design isn't a scientific theory because it is always true.

Newton's laws were shown to be incorrect in some circumstances. Despite what some people here have been spouting here, that does not mean Newton's laws are somehow any less important. The fact is they are still true, and they are still used.

Unfortunately, people without experience in science believe they can pick up some coffee table book and suddenly pick holes in science - like the person elsewhere who claimed that there's no evidence for evolution, when there's rather a lot.

Flapdoodle
01-26-2006, 03:16 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to take my leave of this thread. It's obvious to me it's no longer about its originally intended question. It's also obvious to me that one has to have three degrees in every subject known to Man to be allowed to say "I disagree with any of the posters," without being treated like an imbecile for that disagreement.

I came here to learn how to better my writing, not to be treated like an idiot because I disagree with a particular poster.

Have yourselves a wonderful time, and after this post, I am unsubscribing from this thread.

Good day.

You (He) wasn't disagreeing with a poster. You were disagreeing with what is well proven scientific theory to suit your own needs.

SeanDSchaffer
01-26-2006, 05:02 AM
You (He) wasn't disagreeing with a poster. You were disagreeing with what is well proven scientific theory to suit your own needs.


That is a lie. I know much better than you do who and what I was disagreeing with.

Flapdoodle
01-26-2006, 05:05 AM
That is a lie. I know much better than you do who and what I was disagreeing with.

I thought you were buggering off?:)

SeanDSchaffer
01-26-2006, 05:15 AM
That was before I found out you were taking stabs at me behind my back.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Flapdoodle
01-26-2006, 05:22 AM
That was before I found out you were taking stabs at me behind my back.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Anyway, I'm bored with carbon dating now. Let's give it a rest. :tongue

SeanDSchaffer
01-26-2006, 05:22 AM
Listen, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. All this arguing we're doing is going to get us nowhere fast, and I'm sure you'll agree that the best way to win someone over to your way of thinking--or mine, as the case may be--would be for both of us to calm down.

We're both making our beliefs into nothing more than a sideshow, because the main show is now our heated argument over this. It's like the builder of the Taj Mahal, who originally built it as a tomb for his lovely wife. One day, he found his wife's casket lying in the middle of the building, and had it thrown out because he was more interested by that time in the beauty of his building than the meaning of his building.

I for one am done with this sideshow. It was fun while it was a simple, civilized discussion. But we both have become quite heated over this and, if you haven't noticed, we're the only ones posting on thread now.

MacAllister
01-26-2006, 05:24 AM
That's enough. Both of you.

If you can't shake hands and agree to let it go, then put each other on ignore, instead. I think neither of you is reading the other particularly well.

Flapdoodle
01-26-2006, 05:25 AM
That's enough. Both of you.

:flag:

MacAllister
01-26-2006, 05:27 AM
Heh--"Don't make me stop this car and come back there..."

Thanks, guys. :)

kdnxdr
01-26-2006, 06:17 PM
I recently wrote a short story about mine and my childrens' encounter with a UFO. I've asked in AW if anyone knew where I might submit the story. It's not fiction. Some of the magazines that were suggested, I checked out. They were more about the paranormal with "other" stuff. I didn't want to lose credibility with my story by the magazine that it was published in, so I opted to not go to any of those.

It was a truely incredible experience and I try to tell the story exactly as it happened. Fortunately, it wasn't a very eventful experience, no beeming up or anything. However, it was terrifying just to see it "standing still" about 30 feet over our heads while it was daylight. It was definately impressive! My children are grown and they still don't like to talk about it.

You could say, I am a christian who has a real UFO in my personal life story.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-26-2006, 07:46 PM
I personaly believe that God through Jesus Christ, has left a pretty impressive record of Himself, one that has spanned the globe, not intiated by white people, embraced by a rather large cross section of humanity, across the span of thousands of years. That impresses me. I haven't seen anyone else pull off a campaign that large.

And why exactly is Christianity the most dominant religion? Is it because it was embraced by people all across the globe as being the right one? No. It could be because it was forced on Europeans as it tried to wipe out all the pagan religions and they feared death if they talked out against it. Heresy was a good way to get burned at the stake. Then when the New World was found Chrisitanity thought that the indiginous people of North, Central, and South America were heathens and they believed it was their right to make them covert or die. Which, to me, is so stupid because the bible says thy shall not kill. But I guess heathens don't count. I wonder if those people who killed these heathens went to heaven, after all they did it in Gods name.

So, it impresses you that people embrace it because it was forced on them with fear of death? Doesn't impress me much. We embrace it now because it is what we have known all our lives. If Christianity didn't do what they did early on there could be a good chance it would not be the dominant religion.

kdnxdr
01-26-2006, 09:41 PM
I wonder why, of all the nations of the world that have had everything forced on them or suffer death, have so many opted, of their own free will to continue to believe in Christianity plus other belief systems?

I believe, truth be told, almost, if not all, belief systems that are embraced by humans have initially been forced/or death.

I am sure there are a few, but, as well, I am sure their adherents are nominal.

But, maybe I just want to believe that.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-26-2006, 11:40 PM
Hinduism, Taoism, Wicca, many Native North American Indian religions and almost all of the other pagan religions didn't force anybody to convert because of fear of death.

But believe what you want to believe, for those who fail to see the past are doomed to repeat it.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-27-2006, 01:18 AM
Read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Methods_of_studying_religion_objectively_ .28in_a_scientific_and_religiously_neutral_fashion .29

Some tidbits.

"The Roman Catholic Church, for example, has reserved to itself the right to decide which scientific theories are acceptable and which are unacceptable. In the 17th century, Galileo was tried and forced to recant the theory that the earth goes around the sun. The modern Roman Catholic Church accepts most current scientific theories, but still reserves the right to make the final judgment."

So the church, even if science proves it, still has the right to say if it is real or not. If it doesn't go with their thinking then it won't get approval. But then we have other religions like Hinduism that allow science to flourish.

"Another major religion, Hinduism, is not afraid of scientific explorations, nor the technological progress of mankind. There is a comprehensive scope and opportunity for Hinduism to mould itself according to the demands and aspirations of the modern world, it has the ability to align itself with both science and spiritualism.

Because of its emphasis on verification of Truth and exploration of Truth, Hinduism does not have to force the theories of Darwin or Mendel out of school rooms in order to survive, nor suffer from the compulsions of freezing human thought in a medieval time frame in order to justify itself."

Here are the top religions in the world. How many of them forced death if you didn't convert?

Christianity 2.1 billion yes
Islam 1.3 billion yes
Secular/Irreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 billion No
Hinduism 900 million no
Chinese traditional religion 394 million No
Buddhism 376 million (see also buddhism by country) No
Primal indigenous 300 million No
African traditional and diasporic 100 million No
Sikhism 23 million no
Juche 19 million no
Spiritism 15 million no
Judaism 14 million no
Bahá'í Faith 7 million no
Jainism 4.2 million no
Shinto 4 million (see below) no
Cao Dai 4 million no
Zoroastrianism 2.6 million no
Tenrikyo 2 million no
Neopaganism 1 million no
Jehovah's Witnesses 1 million no
Unitarian Universalism 800,000 no
Rastafari movement 600,000 no

2 of them, not most of them like you said kdnxr.

Edgarallenwannabe
01-27-2006, 04:38 AM
I'd say it's very possible aliens exist, but more than likely we'll never meet them (of course...like I really know).I think if God wanted us to know about them, there would be something in the scriptures, but just because it's not in the Bible, doesn't mean they're not there. As far as us meeting them...well, I'm sure the platypus was never mentioned in the Bible, but meeting one, (not to offend platypii (sp?) lovers), would not count as major, existence changing experience.
I pretty much think that meeting an alien would be something MAJOR, and God being God, he'd probably want to prepare us for that.

I always loved the Stargate series, (far superior to it's movie counterpart...there is only one Jack O'Neil, and that's Richard Dean Anderson!), and their explaination of the Egyptian pyramids.

www.kevinlucia.net (http://www.kevinlucia.net)

robeiae
01-27-2006, 08:24 AM
Here are the top religions in the world. How many of them forced death if you didn't convert?

Christianity 2.1 billion yes
Islam 1.3 billion yes
Secular/Irreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 billion No
Hinduism 900 million no
Chinese traditional religion 394 million No
Buddhism 376 million (see also buddhism by country) No
Primal indigenous 300 million No
African traditional and diasporic 100 million No
Sikhism 23 million no
Juche 19 million no
Spiritism 15 million no
Judaism 14 million no
Bahá'í Faith 7 million no
Jainism 4.2 million no
Shinto 4 million (see below) no
Cao Dai 4 million no
Zoroastrianism 2.6 million no
Tenrikyo 2 million no
Neopaganism 1 million no
Jehovah's Witnesses 1 million no
Unitarian Universalism 800,000 no
Rastafari movement 600,000 no

2 of them, not most of them like you said kdnxr.
Kevin, you really can't fully demonstrate the truth of these assertions. For example, the roots of Hinduism go far back into history; we lack written evidence to really know if religion was ever forced on people at the point of a sword. Also, there are other religions, no longer extant but once very widespread, that were forced on people under penalty of death. Examples: Aztecs, Mayans, Olmecs.

Also, religions do not force themselves on people at all; other people do that. And while some of them may have claimed they were representing a religion, it does not follow that other members of that religion feel such actions are justified.

kdnxdr
01-27-2006, 10:00 PM
One other thing, many of the religions that you did mention in "the list" was the fact that alot, including pagan religions, required human sacrifice.

In addition, many did not force their religion on any others because they were simply born into their belief system by culture. They were who they were by birth, and for many of them, anyone outside of that culure and those beliefs were, in fact, considered enemies, spiritually as well as physically and were killed as acts of war, purging their land of the others or to appease the god of their belief system.

Even among Budhist and Hindu (who have a custom of burning women up for various belief purposes) are having intercultural belief differences and killing one another over them.

Some new age belief systems end up in mass suicide which is a way for a belief system to force itself through death on believers.

Mormons have quite a violent legacy over the issue of polygamy. And, there have been some cases where though they weren't killed, the women were simply kept(by fear) to stay in that belief system.

My point was, yes people who have power over other people ususally do exploit that power, what ever it's based on, all peoples w/power of all nations, rule over and coerce the people they have power over. It's just interesting to me, when that influence of coersion is removed, many peoples who are in non-white societies, who have the opportunity to believe something different, continue in the christian belief system. And too, there is being a christian/church by name according to man's dictates and the real true church that is about God. Man has done a pretty lousy job of representing God, in all religions. That's why the whole God/man thing is about relationship, not religion.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-29-2006, 10:04 AM
"It's just interesting to me, when that influence of coersion is removed, many peoples who are in non-white societies, who have the opportunity to believe something different, continue in the christian belief system."

This isn't true. In every other part of the world but the US the Chrisitian religion is declining, even in Europe. The fastest growing religion now is Islam. African Americans and many other minorities in the US are finding Islam a suitable religion for them. Islam is growing in Africa, a non-white society and in parts of Asia, that are also non-white socities. Your thinking is flawed.

"One other thing, many of the religions that you did mention in "the list" was the fact that alot, including pagan religions, required human sacrifice."

Which ones required human sacrifices? I don't think any of them did. Plus, not all pagan religions required sacrifices. Some, yes, but not all.

"Even among Budhist and Hindu (who have a custom of burning women up for various belief purposes)"

As opposed to Christianity burning witches at the stake, burning heretics, torturing and killing people who speak against the church. What's your point?

"Some new age belief systems end up in mass suicide which is a way for a belief system to force itself through death on believers."

I didn't list any new age belief systems in my "list".

"And too, there is being a christian/church by name according to man's dictates and the real true church that is about God. Man has done a pretty lousy job of representing God, in all religions. That's why the whole God/man thing is about relationship, not religion."

I agree with you here. I think no religion is right, they are all man made. God is around us and to believe in him is all you should need.

"Also, there are other religions, no longer extant but once very widespread, that were forced on people under penalty of death. Examples: Aztecs, Mayans, Olmecs."

Rob, the Aztecs, Mayans, and Olmecs never forced their religion onto other people. These were warrior races and that hardly took prisoners except for sacrifices. They didn't care if others followed their Gods, they just wanted them dead.

mdin
01-29-2006, 12:58 PM
Christianity 2.1 billion yes
Islam 1.3 billion yes
Secular/Irreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 billion No
Hinduism 900 million no
Chinese traditional religion 394 million No
Buddhism 376 million (see also buddhism by country) No
Primal indigenous 300 million No
African traditional and diasporic 100 million No
Sikhism 23 million no
Juche 19 million no
Spiritism 15 million no
Judaism 14 million no
Bahá'í Faith 7 million no
Jainism 4.2 million no
Shinto 4 million (see below) no
Cao Dai 4 million no
Zoroastrianism 2.6 million no
Tenrikyo 2 million no
Neopaganism 1 million no
Jehovah's Witnesses 1 million no
Unitarian Universalism 800,000 no
Rastafari movement 600,000 no

2 of them, not most of them like you said kdnxr.

Dude. Where did you come up with this? Some of these aren't even organized religions, and others--like Juche--aren't really religions at all (but for your information, Kim Jong Il happily kills people in the name of Juche every single day). And almost all the others do in fact have historically killed anyway. "Primal Indigenous" for example would comprise tens of thousands of religions through history, and you can bet your butt that they torured/raped/killed the everliving crap out of each other over it for a millenia.

kdnxdr
01-29-2006, 06:16 PM
That's why God sent His Son to represent Him. The word says that NO ONE come to the Father except by the Son.

NO ONE is capable of representing or demonostrating God to man EXCEPT Jesus, who was the sacrifice by the hand of "God's people". The church without Jesus, in Spirit, is only a hollow man made shell that falsely claims to be God's representation on the earth. Just cause the Pope or anyother man says so, don't make it so. There is only one God and only one fully human authentic representative of Him and it's only when we are conformed into That Image that we become ambassadors and when we deviate from His mission, we are not representing Him. The church has deviated from that mission much.

At least, this is what I believe.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-30-2006, 09:50 PM
Dude. Where did you come up with this? Some of these aren't even organized religions, and others--like Juche--aren't really religions at all (but for your information, Kim Jong Il happily kills people in the name of Juche every single day). And almost all the others do in fact have historically killed anyway. "Primal Indigenous" for example would comprise tens of thousands of religions through history, and you can bet your butt that they torured/raped/killed the everliving crap out of each other over it for a millenia.

I posted the link along with the list, Nav. But here it is again. It is towards the bottom of the page. This is the list of the top twenty religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...al_fashion .29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Methods_of_studying_religion_objectively_ .28in_a_scientific_and_religiously_neutral_fashion .29)

And, if you read what I have been talking about, you will see that I didn't say they don't kill people but they don't kill people if they don't convert to their religion. That is what I'm saying. Chrsitianity did that for many, many years. I was replying to kdnxdr's post as to why Chrisitianity is so huge.

But, you are right. The primal ones may have killed people if they didn't convert. Even Juche may have at one time. So, add those two to the list. That makes it four. kdnxdr said most, if not all, religions forced people to convert through fear of death. I just listed the top religions now and hardly any of them did this.

As for Juche, Kim Jong Il had tried to port the religion out of the country at one time but when he find out it didn't work he even admited that Juche is now a religion for his country only.

And everyone of these is and organized religion and listed behind the religion is how many followers it has.

NicoleJLeBoeuf
01-30-2006, 10:07 PM
Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Buddhists burning women up for various beliefs?

Buddhists?

I am aware that there are many variations of Buddhism out there, but I have never heard of any Buddhists labeling anyone a heretic and then burning them. I mean, that's like accusing a Jainist of animal abuse.

The closest incident I can think of is that of Buddhists priests burning themselves as a protest against forced conversion.

Kdnxdr, you need to provide some sort of backup citation for your claim. URL, news article, book you read this factoid in, something. What you say flies right in the face of everything I know about Buddhism.

Kevin Yarbrough
01-30-2006, 11:04 PM
Nav, this is a snip from Wikipedia about Juche.

"Juche in other countries
During the Cold War North Korea promoted Juche as a guide for other countries, particularly third world countries, to build socialism. Romanian president Nicolae Ceauşescu became especially interested in Juche after a visit to North Korea and sought to base his program of Systematization on it. North Korea no longer promotes Juche in this manner and now teaches that Juche is only for Koreans."

You are right, Nicole. I've never heard of a Buddhist burning women before.

Kdnxdr, here are the five precepts they live by.

The five precepts are:

To refrain from harming living creatures (killing).
To refrain from taking that which is not freely given (stealing).
To refrain from sexual misconduct.
To refrain from incorrect speech (lying, harsh language, slander, idle chit-chat).
To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness.

The first precept, against killing, for example, forbids the killing of animals as well as humans. Furthermore, in Mahayana Buddhism, the Buddha indicates how all-inclusive the injunction against killing is, saying (in The Scripture of Brahma's Net):

"Disciples of the Buddha, should you yourself kill, wilfully cause another to kill, encourage someone to kill, extol killing, take pleasure in seeing killing take place, deliberately wish someone dead, intentionally cause death, supply the instruments or means for killing, cut off a life even when sanctioned by law, that is, participate in any way in killing, you are committing a serious offense warranting exclusion. Pray, do not intentionally kill anything whatsoever which has life."

robeiae
01-30-2006, 11:25 PM
Rob, the Aztecs, Mayans, and Olmecs never forced their religion onto other people. These were warrior races and that hardly took prisoners except for sacrifices. They didn't care if others followed their Gods, they just wanted them dead.
Sorry, that's incorrect. They did force peoples that they conquered to observe their religious customs. And these three were just the first that came to mind. The Egyptians also fit this template during the Old Kingdom and parts of the New Kingdom. In fact, I think you will find that any empire/nation that engaged in outright imperialism and had a state religion engaged in forced conversion. The Romans were a bit of an anamoly. The Soviets had no state religion, so they forced people to "unconvert."

Perhaps Chritianity and Islam seem to stand alone because they are both so new and both were/are state religions for modern nation-states.

Rob :)

Ezy Rider
01-31-2006, 03:27 PM
Wait there! What if aliens come here, and take over and we have to follow their religion? Ah well, praise Allah, praise Buddha, praise Jesus, whatever I have to do to save my own bottom, works for me. :hat:

Flapdoodle
01-31-2006, 04:07 PM
Wait there! What if aliens come here, and take over and we have to follow their religion? Ah well, praise Allah, praise Buddha, praise Jesus, whatever I have to do to save my own bottom, works for me. :hat:

Spoken like a true Catholic.

Ezy Rider
01-31-2006, 05:13 PM
They say, religion is like a boat; men get in, only when it’s going their way.

Hey I can dig it, you ever been to confession, it’s a blast.

Ah… I just make stuff up sometimes; I don’t sin as much as I should.:(

kdnxdr
01-31-2006, 06:18 PM
How much should you sin?

Kevin Yarbrough
01-31-2006, 08:41 PM
Who's to say the aliens aren't God, Ezy Rider?

kdnxdr
01-31-2006, 09:39 PM
they could be gods.

God is singular, albeit, with three heads in the trinity, according to the Holy Bible.

SeanDSchaffer
02-01-2006, 02:04 PM
they could be gods.

God is singular, albeit, with three heads in the trinity, according to the Holy Bible.


I've heard it said, by some preachers, that aliens are really fallen angels. Although I do not hold to the idea that fallen angels are the only cause for UFO's and stuff like that, I do think it is an interesting idea.

Kevin Yarbrough
02-01-2006, 06:46 PM
I've heard it said, by some preachers, that aliens are really fallen angels. Although I do not hold to the idea that fallen angels are the only cause for UFO's and stuff like that, I do think it is an interesting idea.

I've heard that as well, Sean, but I don't buy it. The Vatican has made statements in the past decade that states that there are aliens out there and we should accept them as our spiritual brothers.

We are not special. God wouldn't have just created us in this Universe of billions of glaxies. Underkill, don't you think? There is life out there and we will meet them when the time is right, or when the goverment allows it;) .

kdnxdr
02-01-2006, 08:35 PM
If I was God and I knew what I know now about the behavior of humans, I would have only created one human race in "all of everywhere".

Exponentially speaking, can you imagine the havoc we could wreck if we had all of the universe and all the resources and all the technology that could ever be imagined? Talk about a big Bang, it would be every sci fi star war scenario come true. How would we know who the "bad"/"good" guys were and who would determine what a moral dilema was? That's what was so cool about Star Trek, those kinds of issues got to be explored.

And, where does evil come from, or is there such a thing as evil? Can "aliens" be "evil" or are they only human benafactors as some would like to suppose? If humans can be "evil", what's going to ensure that anyone other than human is not consumed with "evil"?

kdnxdr
02-01-2006, 08:38 PM
If the government has established a rapour with "aliens" or "fallen angels/demons" and the "aliens/fallen angels/demons" have conveyed a higher level of technology to government, which the government now employs, then I would say, "yes, there can be other causes of UFO's".

kdnxdr
02-01-2006, 08:42 PM
If, according to the very tiny bit that I've read on the subject, hyperspace is, in fact, a reality and we, in fact, have the ability, or someone else has the ability, to cross back and forth between our "known" space and hyperspace, such that there are "other dimentions" of reality, I would say, UFO's might be a vehicle that had that capability.

SeanDSchaffer
02-02-2006, 12:00 AM
I've heard that as well, Sean, but I don't buy it. The Vatican has made statements in the past decade that states that there are aliens out there and we should accept them as our spiritual brothers.

We are not special. God wouldn't have just created us in this Universe of billions of glaxies. Underkill, don't you think? There is life out there and we will meet them when the time is right, or when the goverment allows ithttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif .


I agree. Like I said in my previous post, I think the idea that aliens are fallen angels is an interesting way of thinking. And maybe some aliens are fallen angels. But I'm thinking much along the lines of what you said above. Why would God make a Universe so huge as the one we live in, just to accomodate the people of one planet within it? Simply put, the idea that God would do that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I do believe, however, that we humans are special to God, just not in the same way that many fellow Christians think we are special to Him. I think other creatures can be physical and even spiritual equals to human beings, but that God holds Humanity in a higher esteem than others. Much like the Old Testament Scriptures that state God has chosen the Israelites as His 'Peculiar' or 'Special' people.

Cytavani
02-17-2006, 05:00 AM
About the evolution thing; Christians cannot deny "micro" evolution. It is shown every day in the Labrador and Chihuahua. What I have studied and found to be impossible is "macro" evolution. Too many of what are called "evolutionary impossibilities". Take the bombardier beetle. It has 13 steps in its defense "killing liquid". These steps involve 360 degree boiling liquid, and mechanisms to prevent it from being killed. According to all research, this beetle would have died trying to evolve. Do the research. As for aliens, why would God create all of this if it was simply to sit there idle? Surely He is using them for something, or will.

Flapdoodle
02-17-2006, 05:31 AM
About the evolution thing; Christians cannot deny "micro" evolution. It is shown every day in the Labrador and Chihuahua. What I have studied and found to be impossible is "macro" evolution. Too many of what are called "evolutionary impossibilities". Take the bombardier beetle. It has 13 steps in its defense "killing liquid". These steps involve 360 degree boiling liquid, and mechanisms to prevent it from being killed. According to all research, this beetle would have died trying to evolve. Do the research. As for aliens, why would God create all of this if it was simply to sit there idle? Surely He is using them for something, or will.

If you'd studied enough, you'd find that there exists evolutionary models for the Bombadier beetle, and they're not particularly complex, either.

Creationist literature gives an incorrect account of the chemical reactions and mechanism in the beetle. This is quite often cited by ID apologists and creationists, but was discredited years ago.

theengel
02-17-2006, 07:08 AM
The Vatican has made statements in the past decade that states that there are aliens out there and we should accept them as our spiritual brothers.

He He, where'd you hear THAT one? I mean I've heard all kinds of things about the Vatican...but this one is new. I bet you won't be able to quote it.

We are not special.
Hmmm...Jesus seems to disagree. In fact, he thought we were to die for.

God wouldn't have just created us in this Universe of billions of glaxies. Underkill, don't you think?
OK, really now...underkill??
I guess that's a question of what you think a human life is worth. Again, Jesus seemed to think it was worth an awful lot.
Reminds me of a poem I wrote back in highschool:





Old Jack Sumpter was twisted and grey

His features were startling in a most repulsive way

His nose overgrown, his eyes were too small

On beauty he was short, on ugliness tall



He walked with a limp, while leaning on crutches

Aware of his looks, he constantly blushes

He grew up as useless as any man was

He had very few qualities, and plenty of flaws



On day he broke down and yelled with a lisp

He fell to the ground, and pounded his fists

“God, why did you make me, the way that you did?

I was a mistake you have to admit!”



Then he looked up through a fountain of tears,

“I have not a family, I have no career.

With the time that I have, I will search God’s green earth,

For a sight that is lower, that’s less than I’m worth.”



“If I can find it, I’ll complain not again

I’ll thank thee dear Lord, and try to amend

But if there’s no sight, that’s more of a mess,

No creature that’s lower, than my lowliness”



“If I see not a thing, more worthless than me

I’ll assume that either you’re a fraud, or you’re mean.

If that is the case, I’ve no reason to live

I’ll take my own life, and never forgive.”



So he searched all the skies, and open blue seas

On land and on water, through rivers through trees

He searched and he searched, but all he could find

Were the wonders of God, which boggled his mind



The ants were industrious, they toiled and slayed

The monkeys amused, as they chattered and played

Insects were eaten, by birds and by bats

Rats fed the snakes, the snakes ate the rats



Kids found the fireflies, quite a treat

The power of elephants couldn’t be beat

Jack saw a beauty in every creature he found

Through its use or its smell, it’s sight or its sound



He turned to the skies that watered with rain

And then to the ground that fed us with grain

The volcanoes were awesome, the swamps were a sight

There was good in the day and good in the night



The seas showed their power with terrible waves

Then showed a calmness that every man craves

Earthquakes and hurricanes tormented the land

And readied the earth for a new better plan



He turned then to Christ, his face hanging low

Emotions were tossing, to and fro

He cried and he cried, as he pointed his gun

His life was now over, his journey now done



Then Christ opened his arms and took in the man

And hugged him and held him, took the gun from his hand

For the first time he spoke, with a voice that was strong

“My poor silly man, you’re thinking all wrong.”



“I created the ants, the birds and the bees

The dogs and the cats, the grass and the trees

The mountains and valleys, the skies and the seas

The fields and the plains, their maker was Me”



“You think you are worthless, compared to all them

They were made in just seconds, and I could do it again

I came to this earth, to suffer and die

NOT FOR THESE THINGS BUT FOR YOU AND YOUR KIND.”

Remember…God does not make trash

Puddle Jumper
02-19-2006, 05:21 AM
I like the idea presented in The Chronicles of Narnia where God created other worlds in other realities or dimensions or whatever you want to call it, populated by different kinds of people. Humans unique to our universe and world, aliens unique to their world in different universes which don't exist in the same realm as ours. Which that would be a better fit with what the Bible says about Earth being created before the sun, moon, and stars and that everything beyond our world which is the galaxy were created around our world. Which I know evolutionists have a fit about that idea but that is Biblical teaching. So then it would make more sense to me that if you wanted to incorporate aliens into Christian fiction, you would do it in that capacity - other realms, realities, universes, dimensions, whatever you call it.

SeanDSchaffer
02-19-2006, 07:08 PM
Snipped....

I know all about science, thankyou (Having a Bsc, Msc and Doctorate in scientific subjects!)


Forgive me for asking, Flapdoodle, but I have been wondering about the above statement for quite some time.

You state that you have a Bsc, Msc and Doctorate in "Scientific Subjects." Exactly what scientific subjects do you have these degrees in? Further, what school or schools did you go to in order to get these said degrees?

Puddle Jumper
02-21-2006, 10:58 AM
If you'd studied enough, you'd find that there exists evolutionary models for the Bombadier beetle, and they're not particularly complex, either.

Creationist literature gives an incorrect account of the chemical reactions and mechanism in the beetle. This is quite often cited by ID apologists and creationists, but was discredited years ago.
That made my head hurt. I guess I should read further back to see what relevance a beetle has to the thread topic, but just reading that made my head hurt. :)

Wade Ogletree
03-08-2006, 10:54 PM
Back to the alien topic:

I believe you can have aliens in Christian Science Fiction whether or not you believe there are aliens really out there. I've been in a discussion trying to frame a the defining factors of Christian Fantasy and Christian Science Fiction over at theswordreview.com. One of my points is that Christian fiction can support most secularly-defined genres. The question is what really makes the story "Christian".

Wade Ogletree

betterfiction.com (http://betterfiction.com)
totallynovel.com (http://totallynovel.com)

james1611
05-04-2006, 07:31 PM
[QUOTE=Puddle Jumper]I don't believe in aliens, yet I like various movies and tv shows that have aliens in them. But my reason for not believing in them is the Genesis account that says God first created the earth and after He created the earth He created the sun, moon, and stars to give light to the earth, meaning then that the earth is older than the rest of the universe, and then goes through the account of creating life on earth.

I have to agree puddle jumper...the biblical account of creation and Revelations account of eternity to come makes no mention from cover to covereth, about any other intelligent mortal beings in our universe.

I think we have gotten used to the references to aliens in our present time and simply like the thought...but it is not scriptural and is excluded by what is said concerning God's creation and eternity to come as well as the spiritual realm.

However it is interesting that you mention alternate universes...because I have recently finished a novel that uses just such "A Separate creation of God" as the setting. However, not wanting to go against the biblical attributes of God...in my story He is still God, the creator and redeemer and man is the mortal creation, with angels in the spiritual realm.

In fact if follows a similar set of circumstances...ie..fallen angels, fallen man and God working through the human history to redeem man and judge sin and bring in his eternal kingdom by way of the Son of God, given for man's sin in this realm as well.

As christians, if we want to please God in our fiction writing it had better honor him, his word, his son, and the fact that he is the only means of salvation...if we present anything else, how can that have pleased him?

check it out: www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com (http://www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com/)

peace,
Rev. James Somers

SeanDSchaffer
05-04-2006, 08:58 PM
I have to agree puddle jumper...the biblical account of creation and Revelations account of eternity to come makes no mention from cover to covereth, about any other intelligent mortal beings in our universe.

I think we have gotten used to the references to aliens in our present time and simply like the thought...but it is not scriptural and is excluded by what is said concerning God's creation and eternity to come as well as the spiritual realm.

.....Snipped for Brevity.....

As christians, if we want to please God in our fiction writing it had better honor him, his word, his son, and the fact that he is the only means of salvation...if we present anything else, how can that have pleased him?

check it out: www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com (http://www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com/)

peace,
Rev. James Somers


Interesting points, to be sure, Reverend. But it must be pointed out that just because the Bible doesn't mention something, doesn't mean it's not out there. A good case in point to that is the toaster. Nowhere in Scripture do you find anything about the modern toaster. Yet it exists. The same thing can be said for the airplane, the Ford automobile, and the electric train set. None of these things are mentioned in Scripture, but they do exist.

I hold to a belief that if it's not mentioned by the Scripture, that means God is neither pleased nor displeased by it. In other words, I believe that if something is not mentioned in Scripture, God is indifferent to it.

Of course, this is only one man's opinion. I most certainly do not propose to speak for God in my post, but rather only my opinion. Still, I do believe it holds some merit, and if God does not say in Scripture that there are aliens, this does not make it a sin to write about them; it simply means that God has not mentioned them, for whatever reason He might have.

Again, however, I did like the way you brought your points to bear. Very well written.

Anya Smith
05-04-2006, 09:08 PM
Not trying to be rude....and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way at all....but technically speaking, isn't God an alien Himself? I mean, if you think about it, He created the world...He's not "from" this world. I wouldn't consider Him an "Earthling"...

Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the thread or anything - I just wanted to toss that out (again, with no intention of offending anyone).

Take care all -

Yes and no. The way I see it, God is the most alien of all entities. Not only to us Earthlings, but to the universe as well. Yet, we must be part of God in a miniscule way. I mean, our consciousness, our spirit, must have originated with God. Why else we're yearning to join IT, and why else we invent all kinds of religions to justify ITS existence.

icerose
05-04-2006, 09:10 PM
Speaking within the realm of christianity and existence of aliens.

In the bible God stated that his worlds were like the sands upon the shore, they were without number, but he knew them, and he knows us.

Each planet and each member of every planet is special to him.

In the creational context, God created us in his image, so it leads me to believe he created all other sentient beings in his image as well.

Thus I believe in Aliens, but that they look just like us. They merely live on a different world.

Anya Smith
05-04-2006, 09:19 PM
Well, they DO exist in Christian fiction (ever read C.S. Lewis's space trilogy, for instance?) so of course they CAN exist in Christian fiction! Now, if you were to ask SHOULD they, I would be hard pressed to come up with a theological reason why they should NOT. There is certainly nothing in the Bible that rules out other lifeforms on other planets, and Hebrews twice talks about the worlds framed/made by God. Why we should presume ours is the only world or us the only sentient beings I do not know. God is infinitely wise and infinitely powerful...frankly, it is a little difficult for me to consider that he would be satisfied with creating just one world, just one race of free-willed, sentient beings.

Of course, the angels are really aliens; inhabitting not a different planet, but a different realm--but I know what you mean, distinct physical beings inhabitting another physical world. I think such other beings probably exist somewhere in the vast universe--but either way, it doesn't much matter or have much relevance to my faith. If such beings do exist, God's plan for them may be entirely different from his plan for the human race. They may not even have required a Reedemer. They may never have fallen (as C.S. Lewis writes it in Perelandra.)

There is a suppressed part of the Kabala, (one copy exists in the Paris Library) that contains the description of seven other worlds God had created. It lists the names of the worlds, describes the inhabitants, what they eat, and the stars in some. The names of the worlds: Geh, Erez, Adamah, Thebel, Tziah, Nesziah, and Arqa.

I came across this the first time in college. My bio professor was Jewish and he showed us an old parchment, which he translated for us. Later, I heard about the Paris copy, but I never saw it.

Anya Smith
05-04-2006, 09:32 PM
I'm not opposed to the idea of aliens but would need proof to believe they exist. It does make sense though to me that we would not be God's only creation. I would think if I had the creative abilities of God, I would create many universe's with many kinds of beings and all that just for the enjoyment of doing so. Like why I dream up stories, I'm creating characters and worlds just for the enjoyment of doing so.

I like what someone I once knew said. If God did create alien life, He didn't find it important enough to mention to us. :p


Never heard of them. Where might I find them?


Doesn't ring a bell. What's it called? I'm currently reading some C.S. Lewis stuff. Reading through Chronicles of Narnia at the moment, I plan on reading Screwtape Letters later on.

Why insist on proof that aliens exist? Many of us believe in God without tangible proof. I'm one of them. Although, when I worked in biology, many of us began to put the clues together about Creation. 1, The universe is not old enough to have allowed Humans to evolve by random selection. 2, The specificity of the Human genes are so high, ten to the thousands, that it couldn't have just clumped together from a promordial soup, it had to have been designed.

Besides, there are proofs, but they have been erased, hidden, suppressed by early Christian priests and Rabbis. Like the part of the Kabala I mentioned in another post here. The Bible is also filled with passages that smack of alien spacecrafts; Ezekiel, Isiah, etc. Granted that the writing is in non-technological terms, but look at it with the eye of a scientist.

Anya Smith
05-04-2006, 09:38 PM
Intelligence arrived way too fast for humans without any sort of intervention.
Maybe somebody wasn't too happy with the intervention and wants to find a way to stop it. Maybe a cousin from another world who didn't get a "fair" cut of God's "living will".
Just something to think about.

Carrie:)

Intervention. Exactly what I believe. It's supported by the still unexplained missing link in our so called evolution.

james1611
05-04-2006, 09:42 PM
[QUOTE=SeanDSchaffer]Interesting points, to be sure, Reverend. But it must be pointed out that just because the Bible doesn't mention something, doesn't mean it's not out there. A good case in point to that is the toaster. Nowhere in Scripture do you find anything about the modern toaster. Yet it exists. The same thing can be said for the airplane, the Ford automobile, and the electric train set. None of these things are mentioned in Scripture, but they do exist.

While I must agree that the bible does not mention everything, it must be noted that your examples are technology and this is constantly changing...God did not create it, man did...the same cannot be said for living beings.

The Genesis record recalls God's creation, and places the Earth at the center (not literally the center of the physical universe, but in God's work), and man created in his image, along with the entire animal kingdom. And while Angels are not mentioned in creation in Genesis, the bible definitely does talk about them at length as created by God and subject to him.
I would say that any "Aliens" and i'm referring to the kind we normally would think of, not God as an alien or spiritual beings as aliens, but anyway aliens would be created and then go on as man...there is no mention and as others have said the creation is subject to sin because of man...no mention of anyone else...

I still enjoy star wars and star trek and stuff, but is it biblical?...no...i don't see those things as anything but pure fantasy, and no possibility of happening according to the bible. That being said, it still makes for interesting and enjoyable entertainment don't it?



James

SeanDSchaffer
05-04-2006, 10:02 PM
Snipped for Brevity....

The Genesis record recalls God's creation, and places the Earth at the center (not literally the center of the physical universe, but in God's work), and man created in his image, along with the entire animal kingdom. And while Angels are not mentioned in creation in Genesis, the bible definitely does talk about them at length as created by God and subject to him.
I would say that any "Aliens" and i'm referring to the kind we normally would think of, not God as an alien or spiritual beings as aliens, but anyway aliens would be created and then go on as man...there is no mention and as others have said the creation is subject to sin because of man...no mention of anyone else...

I still enjoy star wars and star trek and stuff, but is it biblical?...no...i don't see those things as anything but pure fantasy, and no possibility of happening according to the bible.

James


You make a good point, James. Maybe I should have used things that God created instead of what Man created, as an example.

So I will.

The Bible does not mention North America, Central America, South America, Antarctica, or the North Pole. It also does not mention the Panda Bear, the Kangaroo, or the Monitor Lizard. These things nevertheless exist on this Earth, in God's Creation. If we act as though it is somehow dishonoring to God to write about something that God does not mention in the Bible directly, then we must discount every single creation He did not mention in the Bible.

This is why I have to disagree with your assessment of the issue at hand. It makes no sense to me that if it isn't mentioned in the Bible, it automatically doesn't exist. It's similar in aspect to the idea that Being in Church automatically makes you a Christian. That, of course, would be (as some preachers have said) like saying standing in a garage makes you a Ford Automobile.

On the same token, just because the Bible does not directly say something exists, does not mean that God never made it. The Bible gives us generalities in the Genesis account of Creation as to what He made, because if He had given us specifics, the first chapter of Genesis would have been longer than the entire Bible is today. God did not mention directly everything He created, so how can it be that something doesn't exist just because Scripture doesn't mention it? To me personally, such thinking just does not make sense.

james1611
05-05-2006, 12:25 AM
please let me explain better what I mean... All of the things you mention are found within the framework of the creation of this earth...it is a given that God created the things you listed, they were and are a part of the earth.

however do you have knowledge of anything that is a living breathing or spiritual being that is known to exist... and yet it is not referenced in some way in the bible...

What do i mean by that...for example...the panda bear...God created the beasts of the earth, Genesis...Anarctica...God created the heavens and the Earth, it is part of the Earth and always has been...the puffer fish, God created the sea creatures...Even unnamed living spiritual creatures in heaven are referenced, and potential orders of Angels, are all referenced in some way...other wise we would not even think of them (the unseen spiritual).

But now we have no proof of Aliens from another planet, we have not seen or contacted them and have no tangible proof of their existence in any way...We have no reference to life apart from the spiritual and created mortal life on Earth in the bible...So where does this belief in Alien life come from...It did not come from God...It did not come from any tangible proof of any kind...it comes soley from the imagination of man!!!

We as humanity spend untold billions trying to prove life exists on other planets...and that includes probes launched, massive hubble telescopes, space missions, missions to the moon, missions to mars with cameras, untold transmissions beamed out into space to make contact, and do you know what tangible proof we have that our imaginary aliens exist?
NOT A SINGLE THING....So why do we continue to believe that they must exist?...I believe the answer really lies in the fact that mankind as a whole in general (and i don't mean christians here but..) mankind does not want to believe that he is a sinner and must face God in Judgment someday....

What does that have to do with it?...Consider, Men promote and spend so much time trying to prove Evolution for the same reason, prove it and you disprove God....same thing essentially with aliens...prove it and you basically disprove God as creator...because He doesn't mention a thing about it.

The creation groans together waiting for the revealing of the sons of God...why because the creation is subject to the curse of sin...poor aliens out there don't have a chance, since all are condemned by sin in Adam...or maybe they just don't have any redemption at all from sin...gee that stinks...or maybe they do have redemption and Jesus christ made a separate sacrifice for them on their planet as a weevle-wobble green alien instead of a man so they could have redemption...but the bible said that he made the sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL...and they weren't included...

I'm not trying to be smart allecky..but if you think this makes no sense,,,well its based on real tangible facts and also the Bible truth...what are aliens based on?....NOTHING BUT PURE HUMAN IMAGINATION...now thats something to believe in (note of sarcasm).

As I said, I've got no problem with this stuff from an entertainment standpoint, but we don't have any real tangible reason biblical or otherwise to believe it is a reality in this universe.

respectfully,
James

HoosierCowgirl
05-05-2006, 03:26 AM
Off the top of my head a moth in England had changed it's color from white to almost black to mix in better with the background after the start of the Industrial Revolution. Soot was coating everything and it was standing out and becoming easier prey, its color changes, evolved, to a darker one to stay alive. Things like this has happened in other animals as well. Lizards on Galapoagos Islands that learned to swim is another.

But it's still the same moth, IIRC. It didn't go from a moth to a pterodactyl. It probably illustrates natural selection better than evolution. Or dominant vs. recessive coat color. Or color phases of the same creature -- red vs. gray screech owls come to mind. Was there not some later controversy that the famous moth photos had been faked?

As for "aliens in Christian fiction" -- hey, whatever works for you!

Ann

dlcharles
05-05-2006, 04:29 AM
...

I'm not trying to be smart allecky..but if you think this makes no sense,,,well its based on real tangible facts and also the Bible truth...what are aliens based on?....NOTHING BUT PURE HUMAN IMAGINATION...now thats something to believe in (note of sarcasm).

As I said, I've got no problem with this stuff from an entertainment standpoint, but we don't have any real tangible reason biblical or otherwise to believe it is a reality in this universe.

respectfully,
James

In order for me to accept your question within the frame of a logical stance I must offer a qualifier.

Your question creates an automatic acceptance of your stance concerning the bible as the final arbitrator. Since I might then return the question full point I will instead use the following: Those who believe in, and accept, the bible as the true word of God, in all its wisdoms, have to base said belief and acceptance on a non-tangible 'faith'. Doesn't this also allow for others to believe in the alien concept using their same 'faith'?

It would be enjoyable to discourse upon this at great length, but alas, the forum has no room.

Flapdoodle
05-05-2006, 04:46 AM
please let me explain better what I mean... All of the things you mention are found within the framework of the creation of this earth...it is a given that God created the things you listed, they were and are a part of the earth.

however do you have knowledge of anything that is a living breathing or spiritual being that is known to exist... and yet it is not referenced in some way in the bible...

What do i mean by that...for example...the panda bear...God created the beasts of the earth, Genesis...Anarctica...God created the heavens and the Earth, it is part of the Earth and always has been...the puffer fish, God created the sea creatures...Even unnamed living spiritual creatures in heaven are referenced, and potential orders of Angels, are all referenced in some way...other wise we would not even think of them (the unseen spiritual).

But now we have no proof of Aliens from another planet, we have not seen or contacted them and have no tangible proof of their existence in any way...We have no reference to life apart from the spiritual and created mortal life on Earth in the bible...So where does this belief in Alien life come from...It did not come from God...It did not come from any tangible proof of any kind...it comes soley from the imagination of man!!!

We as humanity spend untold billions trying to prove life exists on other planets...and that includes probes launched, massive hubble telescopes, space missions, missions to the moon, missions to mars with cameras, untold transmissions beamed out into space to make contact, and do you know what tangible proof we have that our imaginary aliens exist?
NOT A SINGLE THING....So why do we continue to believe that they must exist?...I believe the answer really lies in the fact that mankind as a whole in general (and i don't mean christians here but..) mankind does not want to believe that he is a sinner and must face God in Judgment someday....

What does that have to do with it?...Consider, Men promote and spend so much time trying to prove Evolution for the same reason, prove it and you disprove God....same thing essentially with aliens...prove it and you basically disprove God as creator...because He doesn't mention a thing about it.

The creation groans together waiting for the revealing of the sons of God...why because the creation is subject to the curse of sin...poor aliens out there don't have a chance, since all are condemned by sin in Adam...or maybe they just don't have any redemption at all from sin...gee that stinks...or maybe they do have redemption and Jesus christ made a separate sacrifice for them on their planet as a weevle-wobble green alien instead of a man so they could have redemption...but the bible said that he made the sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL...and they weren't included...

I'm not trying to be smart allecky..but if you think this makes no sense,,,well its based on real tangible facts and also the Bible truth...what are aliens based on?....NOTHING BUT PURE HUMAN IMAGINATION...now thats something to believe in (note of sarcasm).

As I said, I've got no problem with this stuff from an entertainment standpoint, but we don't have any real tangible reason biblical or otherwise to believe it is a reality in this universe.

respectfully,
James

Incredible. Someone who believes in entities for which there is NO tangible evidence - putting down people for believing in alien life because there's no tangible evidence of its existence. Ha.

SeanDSchaffer
05-05-2006, 04:39 PM
please let me explain better what I mean... All of the things you mention are found within the framework of the creation of this earth...it is a given that God created the things you listed, they were and are a part of the earth.

Yes, this is quite true.


however do you have knowledge of anything that is a living breathing or spiritual being that is known to exist... and yet it is not referenced in some way in the bible...

So in other words, if the Bible doesn't mention it, it can't exist?


What do i mean by that...for example...the panda bear...God created the beasts of the earth, Genesis...Anarctica...God created the heavens and the Earth, it is part of the Earth and always has been...the puffer fish, God created the sea creatures...Even unnamed living spiritual creatures in heaven are referenced, and potential orders of Angels, are all referenced in some way...other wise we would not even think of them (the unseen spiritual).

Ah, but if the Unseen Spiritual creatures were not mentioned in the Bible, would they be nonexistent? I think the answer to that is fairly obvious.


But now we have no proof of Aliens from another planet, we have not seen or contacted them and have no tangible proof of their existence in any way...

We have no physical proof of God, either, yet you and I both know He exists.


We have no reference to life apart from the spiritual and created mortal life on Earth in the bible...

So what? Does this mean they cannot exist?


So where does this belief in Alien life come from...It did not come from God...It did not come from any tangible proof of any kind...it comes soley from the imagination of man!!!

It may at that, James. But this does not mean that they cannot exist.


We as humanity spend untold billions trying to prove life exists on other planets...and that includes probes launched, massive hubble telescopes, space missions, missions to the moon, missions to mars with cameras, untold transmissions beamed out into space to make contact, and do you know what tangible proof we have that our imaginary aliens exist?
NOT A SINGLE THING....So why do we continue to believe that they must exist?...I believe the answer really lies in the fact that mankind as a whole in general (and i don't mean christians here but..) mankind does not want to believe that he is a sinner and must face God in Judgment someday....

So belief in the possibility of alien life equates with not wanting to be judged by God in the end times? Interesting theology: would you like to back that up with some Scripture, please?


What does that have to do with it?...Consider, Men promote and spend so much time trying to prove Evolution for the same reason, prove it and you disprove God....same thing essentially with aliens...prove it and you basically disprove God as creator...because He doesn't mention a thing about it.

Again, this does not make it impossible for such creatures to exist. It only means God does not mention them.


The creation groans together waiting for the revealing of the sons of God...why because the creation is subject to the curse of sin...poor aliens out there don't have a chance, since all are condemned by sin in Adam...or maybe they just don't have any redemption at all from sin...gee that stinks...or maybe they do have redemption and Jesus christ made a separate sacrifice for them on their planet as a weevle-wobble green alien instead of a man so they could have redemption...but the bible said that he made the sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL...and they weren't included...

Who did Christ die for, Sir? Was it so the whole creation could go to Heaven? Or was it for Mankind alone? I seem to get from this that if an alien race lives, it's automatically hell-bound....even though the Bible says nothing of the sort, from cover to cover.


I'm not trying to be smart allecky..but if you think this makes no sense,,,well its based on real tangible facts and also the Bible truth...

How can an intangible God be based on real tangible facts?


what are aliens based on?....NOTHING BUT PURE HUMAN IMAGINATION...now thats something to believe in (note of sarcasm).

So what? It's not like believing they could exist is the same thing as asking them to save your eternal soul.


As I said, I've got no problem with this stuff from an entertainment standpoint, but we don't have any real tangible reason biblical or otherwise to believe it is a reality in this universe.

respectfully,
James

Believing it could be a reality is not the same thing as believing it is a reality. Nor is it against God to believe that something He did not mention in the Bible is a possibility.

james1611
05-05-2006, 05:58 PM
As for no tangible proof of God, I believe we have plenty.

1. We have a creation, and while that is debated by unbelievers, still we are here and God has appeared unto man quite a few times and spoken with man and given man his word through quite credible upstanding people...and while unbelievers may not accept that, for you and I we know that God has interacted with man a whole lot and it is given in the bible...example God speaking with Abraham, moses, Elijah, Daniel, and others.

2. God sent us his son, and he fulfilled over 300 prophecies concerning his coming (many other prophecies have been fulfilled to the letter already as well ie- Tyre's destruction etc)...and keep in mind this is a discussion among christians so you believe what i am saying already...anyway God has interacted with man...and to any christian this is way beyond tangible proof of his existence.

3. That belief in Aliens and such is connected with trying to disprove God... man knowing of God (Romans chapter 1) did not glorify him as God but changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things...professing themselves to be wise they became fools...etc...

Yes man has for a long time been going away from God trying to deny his existence...Isaiah talks about the foolishness of this with idolatry, that man for example would cut down a tree and then take part to make furniture or such, another part he would burn to cook with and another part he would fashion into an idol and fall down and worship it as a god, rather than worshipping the Creator...man has been going away from God for a long, long time and this is nothing new.

If you believe in Aliens that is your business, my only point there is that 1.) that idea did not originate with God...2.)It did originate with unbelievers purely from their imaginations and their seeking a way to justify not believing in God....so why SHOULD a christian believe it? we simply don't have any reason to believe it and its obvious why unbelievers want to chase that dream...it supports evolution and not God as creator (and ultimately Judge, and that is the main thing they wish to avoid, believing they will be judged by Him)
How does it support evolution, because God does not reference it in any way shape or form, therefore the reasoning is, that if they are there somewhere then life can simply happen by chance where conditions are favorable and so forth and suddenly you have bolstered evolution, because that is what they believe happened here on Earth, not in a sovereign Creator God.

As I mentioned before I did not say that something not mentioned in the bible could not exist...but all of these things are referenced in some way in the bible...technology as i stated before is a creation of man, and in flux constantly, but thats not a living race of beings now is it...

You say well, if God hadn't mentioned those spiritual beings...first, He did...second, everything else is referenced in some way that we know of God making, all referenced in some way in his word...third, even if He didn't mention them, they have interacted with man as well, it just happens to also be spoken of in the bible, ie...angels interacting with man listed in the bible.

As for Aliens, all I am saying is....you don't have any of those kinds of proofs, references, interactions, witnesses (credible, not kookie tabloid style), or any other thing whatsoever in biblical or secular circles...so why believe in it.

I did not say God could not have done it...I merely point out that if he had, then almost certainly he would have referenced it somewhere in his word, in some way...because he has everything else, in some fashion from the spiritual unseen to the things seen and created by his hand, and certainly every living thing we know of spiritual and mortal, is referenced in some way, whether generally in the case of the animal kingdom etc...

My point is we have plenty of reasons to believe in the existence of God, we have plenty of proofs, its a matter of whether one believes those proofs or not...but Aliens have none of that, it makes no sense, and it only originated in man's imagination with any enthusiasim in the last century and basically that started with it as entertainment and took off from there. It did not come from God.

james

Anya Smith
05-06-2006, 02:21 AM
As for no tangible proof of God, I believe we have plenty.

1. We have a creation, and while that is debated by unbelievers, still we are here and God has appeared unto man quite a few times and spoken with man and given man his word through quite credible upstanding people...and while unbelievers may not accept that, for you and I we know that God has interacted with man a whole lot and it is given in the bible...example God speaking with Abraham, moses, Elijah, Daniel, and others.

2. God sent us his son, and he fulfilled over 300 prophecies concerning his coming (many other prophecies have been fulfilled to the letter already as well ie- Tyre's destruction etc)...and keep in mind this is a discussion among christians so you believe what i am saying already...anyway God has interacted with man...and to any christian this is way beyond tangible proof of his existence.

3. That belief in Aliens and such is connected with trying to disprove God... man knowing of God (Romans chapter 1) did not glorify him as God but changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things...professing themselves to be wise they became fools...etc...

Yes man has for a long time been going away from God trying to deny his existence...Isaiah talks about the foolishness of this with idolatry, that man for example would cut down a tree and then take part to make furniture or such, another part he would burn to cook with and another part he would fashion into an idol and fall down and worship it as a god, rather than worshipping the Creator...man has been going away from God for a long, long time and this is nothing new.

If you believe in Aliens that is your business, my only point there is that 1.) that idea did not originate with God...2.)It did originate with unbelievers purely from their imaginations and their seeking a way to justify not believing in God....so why SHOULD a christian believe it? we simply don't have any reason to believe it and its obvious why unbelievers want to chase that dream...it supports evolution and not God as creator (and ultimately Judge, and that is the main thing they wish to avoid, believing they will be judged by Him)
How does it support evolution, because God does not reference it in any way shape or form, therefore the reasoning is, that if they are there somewhere then life can simply happen by chance where conditions are favorable and so forth and suddenly you have bolstered evolution, because that is what they believe happened here on Earth, not in a sovereign Creator God.

As I mentioned before I did not say that something not mentioned in the bible could not exist...but all of these things are referenced in some way in the bible...technology as i stated before is a creation of man, and in flux constantly, but thats not a living race of beings now is it...

You say well, if God hadn't mentioned those spiritual beings...first, He did...second, everything else is referenced in some way that we know of God making, all referenced in some way in his word...third, even if He didn't mention them, they have interacted with man as well, it just happens to also be spoken of in the bible, ie...angels interacting with man listed in the bible.

As for Aliens, all I am saying is....you don't have any of those kinds of proofs, references, interactions, witnesses (credible, not kookie tabloid style), or any other thing whatsoever in biblical or secular circles...so why believe in it.

I did not say God could not have done it...I merely point out that if he had, then almost certainly he would have referenced it somewhere in his word, in some way...because he has everything else, in some fashion from the spiritual unseen to the things seen and created by his hand, and certainly every living thing we know of spiritual and mortal, is referenced in some way, whether generally in the case of the animal kingdom etc...

My point is we have plenty of reasons to believe in the existence of God, we have plenty of proofs, its a matter of whether one believes those proofs or not...but Aliens have none of that, it makes no sense, and it only originated in man's imagination with any enthusiasim in the last century and basically that started with it as entertainment and took off from there. It did not come from God.

james

Actually, both God and aliens can exist. The universe is wast beyond imagining. One does not preclude the other. I believe in God, the Creator of the universe and everything in it, but I also belive we're not the only beings in the universe.

We have just as many indications that aliens may have visited the Earth both in the far past and recently. What the Bible says is not the whole truth; priests, men wrote the Bible. They also corrupted it, deleted sections, added other parts. It still reflects some strange things, (perhaps they had overlooked those), like aircrafts, atomic weapons (Sodom and Gomorrah) and many more.

As to aliens; what about paintings of the Renaissance that show flying saucers? If that's not evidence that something or someone was flying in manned craft than I don't know what is.

All I'm saying is that there are some evidences, but they're generally being downplayed.

dlcharles
05-07-2006, 04:26 AM
Well said, AnyaSmith!


James: Aliens? Extraterrestials? Do they exist and is there concrete proof? What constitutes 'concrete proof' and who is the decisor?

If I say to you that I have personally seen a UFO it is concrete proof to me and mine, but you would not accept such on only my saying it happened. By the same token, if you say to me you have seen and/or talked to your God - I was not there to see him, nor did I hear the conversation where he spoke.

As a child of about eight years I was privileged to experience a situation involving six balls of 'fire' which moved in complex patterns above and around my immediate family. No one was harmed in any way, although the adults were frightened terribly. It was experienced, we grew up, but the memory retains the freshness of an hour ago.

You would not, could not, accept this as a concrete - you were not there at the time, but to my parents, my siblings, the two elderly sisters across the way, it was/is/will always be 'a concrete'.

SeanDSchaffer
05-07-2006, 08:14 PM
As for no tangible proof of God, I believe we have plenty.

1. We have a creation, and while that is debated by unbelievers, still we are here and God has appeared unto man quite a few times and spoken with man and given man his word through quite credible upstanding people...and while unbelievers may not accept that, for you and I we know that God has interacted with man a whole lot and it is given in the bible...example God speaking with Abraham, moses, Elijah, Daniel, and others.

2. God sent us his son, and he fulfilled over 300 prophecies concerning his coming (many other prophecies have been fulfilled to the letter already as well ie- Tyre's destruction etc)...and keep in mind this is a discussion among christians so you believe what i am saying already...anyway God has interacted with man...and to any christian this is way beyond tangible proof of his existence.

3. That belief in Aliens and such is connected with trying to disprove God... man knowing of God (Romans chapter 1) did not glorify him as God but changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things...professing themselves to be wise they became fools...etc...
....Snipped.


James,

You will find that a great many people do not consider the Bible to be tangible proof of God. The question arises whenever someone uses your arguments, "Have you ever seen God? How do you know He is physically there?"

Your third point of belief in Aliens being directly connected with trying to disprove God is complete bunk. The idea that because God does not mention aliens, therefore they don't exist, is ridiculous.

You claim to know your Bible pretty well, don't you? That would be most probably why your name is "James1611". For those who don't know, the name 'James' is associated with the Authorized Version of the Bible, better known as the King James Version, and 1611 is the year of its first publication.

But James, just because you claim to know your Bible, doesn't make you an expert in what God is or what He has made.

Case in point: I believe there was another poster who mentioned God creating 'Worlds,' not just one world. This Scripture can be found in Hebrews 1:2 and 11:3. He made, according to Scripture, worlds, plural. Not just one. So my question is, James, why is believing aliens could exist tantamount to trying to disprove God's existence?

Or perhaps a better question might be, why do we Christians refuse to believe something people see almost every day around the world, could even exist? Could it be that we have the mistaken idea that to believe in such things would be detrimental to our faith?

Finally, why would it be detrimental to our faith to believe that aliens could exist? Not saying that they do, only that they could. I have no concrete proof that aliens exist, but I do believe they could exist. You, on the other hand, have no concrete proof outside of the Bible, that God exists, yet you insist that He did not create things you do not personally believe in.

Why don't you let God decide for Himself what He made, instead of trying to prove He didn't make something He doesn't give us a 'yea' or 'nay' on in Scripture?

dlcharles
05-07-2006, 10:44 PM
James,

.......Why don't you let God decide for Himself what He made, instead of trying to prove He didn't make something He doesn't give us a 'yea' or 'nay' on in Scripture?

Good point.

Along the sme line, I have always had a problem with the "six days of creation" bit. Every translation of the bible which I have been aware of has always written that after creating for the six days, God 'rested'.

Rested is past tense, not a present situation. One cannot have 'rested' unless one has ceased the act of 'resting' and again began something else or continued the same 'creativity'. If God 'rested' on the 7th day - what did he create on the 8th day when he went back to work, and so on numerically?

Maybe he created the next step in life - like.. aliens.

james1611
05-08-2006, 09:21 PM
Hello,

Just to qualify...my previous post did state that IF ONE WAS A CHRISTIAN, to paraphrase then what i was saying concerning biblical truth was acceptable...I also believe i state that unbelievers would not accept it as truth.

another note...I did not claim any great knowledge of the bible, if quoting from it or standing upon what it says conveys this then I'm sorry, but that is my position.

Also I believe the bible is God's revelation of himself to man and the promises to preserve it, so by standing upon the bible, as a christian I believe, God has already stated the facts as he sees it.

Yes, the scripture does say worlds, I did not say God did not create worlds...I think my entire discussion made that obvious, but i suppose no one picked up on the obvious. Just because God made the worlds, according to the bible, that does not mean he populated them, and since he doesn't mention that at all and does mention everything else in some manner (as I've stated at length earlier), and because there is not a shred of tangible evidence to the contrary secular or religiously (except the inquirer)...I don't believe.

My reasons for stating why God wouldn't are already here on the thread.

James

SeanDSchaffer
05-09-2006, 05:52 AM
Hello,

Just to qualify...my previous post did state that IF ONE WAS A CHRISTIAN, to paraphrase then what i was saying concerning biblical truth was acceptable...I also believe i state that unbelievers would not accept it as truth.

....Snipped.


Just to qualify my own statement, which you seem to misunderstand James....I am stating that aliens are a possibility, whether you're a Christian or not. Just because the Bible does not say, "God created aliens," does not mean He didn't create them.

And forgive me if I misunderstand your statement, here, but to be a Christian does not automatically mean you can't believe in aliens. To be a Christian, you have to have Christ taking you to Heaven, and that's it. Belief in aliens or the possibility of them does not exclude someone from the Christian faith.

Now let me give you a Scripture since you gave me one:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. -- Hebrews 11:1

Why is it that we can't have faith that something like aliens could exist? There is no commandment in the Bible, "Thou shalt not believe something exists that I did not mention in Scripture." You can say "God didn't do this because He never mentioned it in the Bible" all you want, but that does not negate the fact that God is infinite, and is capable of creating things that are not mentioned in Scripture.

As for evidence, James, you seem to think we have access to the whole universe physically, so that we can study up-close every possible planet in the universe. We haven't even landed a man on Mars, and yet we're supposed to know everything there is to know, as of right now, what the whole universe holds.

No, I will not believe that God, in all His infinite power and wisdom, would make such a massive place as our universe, and not populate it with anything but Earth's human beings. I'm sorry, that is just something I cannot subscribe to.

A giant empty space with no purpose: knowing the God of the Bible, I will not believe in such an idea.

Alien Enigma
05-09-2006, 10:33 AM
Anything that is real should be included in Christian fiction. Include the ALIENS!


You could also talk about the popular belief of the 18th century philosophers that the earth and it's seen universe is inside a giant sphere. The outer sphere could be Heaven or it could be another ball inside a ball. Oh...what possibilities.

Some believe that Venus is Hell. Some believe that the Earth is hollow. It all could fit into Christian beliefs very easily.


Alien Enigma

www.freewebs.com/jefferysmiller

james1611
05-09-2006, 05:18 PM
I never said a person who believes in aliens couldn't be a christian...my posts have never made such an unfounded statement nor would I.

As far as the empty meaningless universe...The Heavens declare the glory of God and we as believers will inherit this universe...as well as the new earth and new jerusalem...no reason to believe it has no meaning...but we shall simply agree to disagree.

This topic is basically only a philosophical discussion and points being made...I think we shall just disagree and see what happens in the end of the matter before God when he makes all things known unto us that are unknown...After all as fellow believers I would not wish to stir up any contention over something that really is not an important doctrinal issue.

be well,
James Somers

SeanDSchaffer
05-10-2006, 07:44 AM
Snipped for Brevity....

This topic is basically only a philosophical discussion and points being made...I think we shall just disagree and see what happens in the end of the matter before God when he makes all things known unto us that are unknown...After all as fellow believers I would not wish to stir up any contention over something that really is not an important doctrinal issue.

be well,
James Somers

Emphasis Mine.


You know, James? You make a good point there. The belief in aliens or the lack thereof is not an important issue within Christianity. I want you to know that, despite what I might sound like when I'm debating someone on any issue, I hold a great deal of respect for anyone who is willing to agree to disagree. You're right: that's what we're going to have to do.

But I want you to understand one thing about what I've been saying all this time. I believe in the possibility that aliens from another planet could exist, not that they are proven fact. I think it's obvious to most everyone who posts here that extraterrestrials are not, at least by our society, proven fact. The point I'm trying to make is I think it's possible, because the Bible doesn't flat-out say, "God did not make mortal life outside this Earth." Of course, He also does not flat-out say He did, but my figuring on this issue is, because God does not give a 'yea' or 'nay' vote in the Bible, the possibility of such creatures existing could be a realistic thing.

But again, I'm not saying they do exist, only that I think they could exist. I have no way of proving either way, whether they do or they don't.

So if I come across as more than a little overzealous about what I believe, I hope you'll forgive that. It's a natural part of me that is not easily suppressed, although I am learning.


Respectfully,

Sean D. Schaffer

goldpeace
05-11-2006, 04:57 PM
My belief is God helped ape evolve into us but I will always keep my mind open to other ideas as to how we got here.
_____________________________

Kev-

According to scripture, God made HUMAN BEINGS in his image-
This of course does not mean "physically", but rather we are spiritual beings as God our Father is. WE have a soul, whereas animals do not.

God further instructed human beings to rule over the animals of the earth-

An ape is not made in the image of God, nor does he have a soul, nor would he be in a postion ever to be equal to...or rule over a human being. No creature "evolved" into a human being according to scripture.

As far as "aliens"....
"IF" they exist-
and if WE, as human beings, are the ones made in God's image, what role exactly would aliens serve?
Why would scripture give detailed description of God's creation of man and the earth- as well as angels...satan as a fallen angel, his demons...and yet, NOT give mention of an alternative life such as aliens?

My guess, as mentioned here....is that they would either be demons-
or,
the govenment.

We have been messing with things that down the line are going to come back to kick us in the butt...cloning and experimenting in "playing God" - creating things that are not human....except in appearance-

jacki

james1611
05-12-2006, 07:05 PM
I'm afraid that makes no sense at all to me. Why would God cause an ape to evolve into a man and then say he created man straight from the dust of the Earth, (lying, by the way)...and so forth....And God can't lie.

Our Knowledge of God comes from the bible, and it does not support evolution in any way...neither does evolution support the bible.

just by way of example...if God caused the ape to evolve then where is the missing link...if ape is inferior to that creature in the middle, why is he still here and the other gone?...There is no missing link...many of the so called bones of neanderthals have been nothing more than animal bones like a tooth or something and they built a whole reconstruction of a neanderthal man around it, later exposed as a hoax. Chick tract..."Big Daddy?" is a good one to look at for this on the chick tract website.

If God is God according to the Bible, then he didn't have to evolve man from anything, he is perfectly capable of creating and doing so in the exact timeline given in the bible. Theistic evolution and gap theory and so forth are nothing more than some unneeded agreement between christianity and evolution (science falsely so-called) evolution is unprovable...it is based on faith...except it is faith in chance, Not God.

In the beginning Dirt, In the beginning Explosion, In the beginning Nothing...

I think I'll just stick with "In the beginning God..."

Evolutionists aren't trying to beat around the bush and reconcile their theories with the bible, so why have some christians felt the need to do so?

Creationists have tons of good solid science to put away evolution and they've got Phd's just like the other guys...so it still all comes down to faith, because none of us or them can go back and witness the creation, and noone has witnessed evolution taking place, so it is going to remain a matter of faith.

"For without faith, it impossible to please him..."

Peace,
Rev. James

Flapdoodle
05-12-2006, 07:16 PM
Creationists have tons of good solid science to put away evolution and they've got Phd's just like the other guys...so it still all comes down to faith,

No, it only comes down to faith for creatonism. There's no creationist "solid science" as creationistm isn't a scientific theory.

The theory of Evolution is based on real-world observations.

james1611
05-12-2006, 08:16 PM
flap,

you really should investigate the issue...check out books by John Norris and the creation science institute website, and many others.

Evolution is based on faith,...and an observation can be made by anyone.

I observe through an EYE, that is so absolutely complex that the statistics of it forming on its own is infinitely against it.

Interesting that with all of man's technology, we can't create life even at the smallest level... and yet it happened by chance...do the math for that one!!!

by the way that's just an observation.

Rev. James

SeanDSchaffer
05-12-2006, 09:14 PM
No, it only comes down to faith for creatonism. There's no creationist "solid science" as creationistm isn't a scientific theory.

The theory of Evolution is based on real-world observations.


I hate to tell you this, Flapdoodle, but there is no human being alive who has been around the entire four billion years' time supposedly required for this world to have evolved. To make a real-world observation of evolution (or creation, for that matter), you have to be there to observe it yourself.

Since neither you nor I nor any human being was around four billion years ago to make such observations, your statement, despite your degrees in 'Scientific Subjects,' is ludicrous.

There is only so much you can observe, and the evolution or creation of this Earth and its creatures, is not one of them.


One more thing: do you want the people here to believe what you believe? If so, preaching to them like a Fundamental Baptist Pastor will not get you the desired results. If you want any of us to turn to your beliefs, give some real-world facts, and not just the generalizations you usually give.

Flapdoodle
05-12-2006, 09:18 PM
flap,

you really should investigate the issue...check out books by John Norris and the creation science institute website, and many others.

Evolution is based on faith,...and an observation can be made by anyone.

I observe through an EYE, that is so absolutely complex that the statistics of it forming on its own is infinitely against it.

Interesting that with all of man's technology, we can't create life even at the smallest level... and yet it happened by chance...do the math for that one!!!

by the way that's just an observation.

Rev. James

I suggest you do some research yourself regarding the eye - it's actually been shown that there is a chain of evolution from a simple light sensitive cell to a full blown eye. There also exists creatures that illustrate all the phases of this evolution.

There's nothing to read up on "creationism". The only work that's vaguely interesting the Irreducible Complexity argument - and the interesting part is how fundamentally wrong it is, and how easy it has been to disprove it. It's not even a scientific theory.

Evolution isn't based on faith. It's a scientific theory.

SeanDSchaffer
05-12-2006, 09:30 PM
Snipped For Brevity....

There's nothing to read up on "creationism". The only work that's vaguely interesting the Irreducible Complexity argument - and the interesting part is how fundamentally wrong it is, and how easy it has been to disprove it. It's not even a scientific theory.

....Snipped.

My Emphasis.


Then by all means, please show us--right here and right now--how it was disproven.


Edited to Add:

By the way, please give us specifics, not vague generalities. Thank you.

Flapdoodle
05-12-2006, 09:34 PM
My Emphasis.


Then by all means, please show us--right here and right now--how it was disproven.


Edited to Add:

By the way, please give us specifics, not vague generalities. Thank you.

Google it - the concept of irreducible complexity was disproven by proving the flagellum was, in fact, reducible. It's out there somewhere. Try the talk.origins website.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

I'm sure you can find it. The BBC in the UK showed a documentary a few months back where they had Behe arguing his theory then showed this.

ID isn't a theory, as it does not have a falsification hypothesis - it's always true, because the answer is "a supernatural "thing" created it."

SeanDSchaffer
05-12-2006, 09:44 PM
Google it - the concept of irreducible complexity was disproven by proving the flagellum was, in fact, reducible. It's out there somewhere. Try the talk.origins website.


What? Are you, by chance, afraid to share with us simpletons the vast amount of knowledge you claim to possess?

Or do you really know everything that you claim to know?


Right here, right now.

james1611
05-12-2006, 10:05 PM
actually I am a fundamentalist baptist...as long as you mean dogmatically bible believing and a member of a baptist church...

I'll stand on God's word, because it will never pass away (quote).

As for Flap's case or examples, there will always be found examples for either side to quote in such a debate, so essentially getting into an argument about it on this forum is pointless for all involved.

Are we going to answer it here...I doubt it. Why? Because Flap didn't come here to be convinced of anything, and as a born again believer in Jesus Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, I certainly will not be convinced that chance resulted in God's creation.

All the evidence is displayed before us all, as Romans chapter 1 tells us, so it is a matter of interpretation of the evidence... But as the bible says "we are without excuse!"

Rev. James

SeanDSchaffer
05-12-2006, 10:48 PM
actually I am a fundamentalist baptist...as long as you mean dogmatically bible believing and a member of a baptist church...

I'm sorry if my post insulted you, James. I didn't mean it to. I was actually referring to the style of preaching, not the beliefs of the Fundamental Baptists. I was actually raised as a Fundamental Baptist, and, though I don't consider myself one any more, I do hold a high amount of respect for them and what they believe.

No, I was only referring to preaching style.


I'll stand on God's word, because it will never pass away (quote).

As for Flap's case or examples, there will always be found examples for either side to quote in such a debate, so essentially getting into an argument about it on this forum is pointless for all involved.

Are we going to answer it here...I doubt it. Why? Because Flap didn't come here to be convinced of anything, and as a born again believer in Jesus Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, I certainly will not be convinced that chance resulted in God's creation.

All the evidence is displayed before us all, as Romans chapter 1 tells us, so it is a matter of interpretation of the evidence... But as the bible says "we are without excuse!"

Rev. James


Now that is something I hadn't thought about. I think you're right. Flap didn't come here to be convinced, or, if I might add, to convince others. Again, my passion for what I personally believe has given me an overzealous attitude that is very much not complimentary to this discussion. For that, I humbly apologize. I am learning to control myself better, but for me such learning takes quite some time to apply to my life.

Like I said once on Mindsight, I have a tendency to take other people's arguments as a personal insult. Of course, this is not the way debates work, but I must admit I am guilty of thinking wrong in the way of how I treat a debate.

So, I think I will try to calm myself down a bit, and not use such stereotypical descriptions as I used of the Fundamental Baptist Preacher earlier. It is easy to forget that such statements, though not thus intended, are still very insulting to other people than it was meant to address.

james1611
05-12-2006, 11:16 PM
Don't worry, i wasn't insulted.:Hug2:


These debates are endless and pointless though, noone enters them to be persuaded only to argue...ever visit a christian chat room?...OH BOY, constant arguing!

peace,

Rev. James

dlcharles
05-16-2006, 01:13 AM
Oie! Has it been four billion years already? No wonder my arthritis is acting up. I remember it like it was yesterday. There I was, sitting outside my cave, when all of a sudden it happened - just like that (snaps fingers)!

Or did it? You know, after four billion years the mind starts to play a few tricks. Not that I'm getting senile, mind you, but some of the memories - not so clear anymore. Like my pets, big things with long teeth which could really hurt sometimes.

Where was I? Oh, yes - memories of how it was at the time, but I feel an ice age closing in and its getting pretty cold here. Maybe you should come back in a few thousand years or so to talk some more. Would you care for a bagel to take with you?

james1611
05-16-2006, 01:54 AM
Wow! And I thought dopey had only been around since the 50's or 60's.

james

Puddle Jumper
05-16-2006, 08:12 AM
actually I am a fundamentalist baptist...as long as you mean dogmatically bible believing and a member of a baptist church...
So no dancing, eh?


I'll stand on God's word, because it will never pass away (quote).
Amen.

I see the word evolution, which I suppose can be connected to aliens as the theory of evolution would logically come to the conclusion that there would be life elsewhere in the galaxy whereas Christianity tends to say no because the earth was created before the sun, moon, and stars.

Of course if you create your own universe in fiction anything goes. But I think it's hard to mix fantasy with Christianity without Christianity itself coming across as fiction. Unless the fantasy element has some basis in the Bible, such as angels and demons as we see depicted in a fantasy-like tale such as This Present Darkness.

C.S. Lewis was able to make aliens sound plasible by saying they exist in a completely seperate universe from our own. Narnia was not a place one could ever travel to by means of a spaceship but through magic stepping out of our universe and into another which God created seperately. Which to the Christian does sound very possible. Why should we think this universe is the only universe God ever created? Why should we think that the only people God ever created were angels and humans? God's creativity knows no bounds or limits.

For that reason I don't think there's anything wrong with fantasy or fiction concerning aliens so long as it's not pushing an anti-Christian belief. And I think we should be careful that in the process, Christianity does not come across as fiction.

james1611
05-17-2006, 08:33 PM
I've used just such a possibility in my own novel, to skirt around the biblical history from genesis to revelation...its done already, but a separate creation...ah yes!

The playing field is almost wide open, however from a christian perspective one could not legitimately get around the nature and attributes of God in your story...God must still be God no matter what he creates.

As for my own novel, I chose to use man, angels (good & bad) and salvation by faith in the Son of God. But the history is completely different and the technology much higher. Also some special gifts to the protaganist and his kind, but NO USE OF MAGIC...this would go against the bible to incorporate even so-called "white magic"...even Anton Levey laughed at that idea! He said it all comes from the same source and he was the founder of the church of Satan!

Christians should always seek to honor God first, even when writing fiction, and there are ways to do so, after all I would hate to stand at the judgment seat of Christ and have to give account for a book I wrote and how it did not even honor God.

Rev. James