Dog Attack

aruna · Apr 6, 2012

I'll say this first: I love all animals (except rats!) and especially dogs. I'm not afraid of dogs. Not in the least. If I go for a walk and a dog approachs me with a wagging tail, I'll pat its head. I've never, in all my 60 years, had a problem with a dog, or been attacked by one. Dogs like me. Until last year.

Last year I moved to Germany. I live in a quiet residential area; there are four houses in a pretty cul-de-sac, and I live as a tenant in one of the end houses. One of the families has a dog, a bulldog. This dog hates me.

From the moment he first saw me, this dog has been outraged by my presence. Last summer, he used to lie outside their front door most of the day and the moment I appeared he would fly into a rage and storm towards me barking furiously. They would come out and call him back. Usually he obeyed. Usually he would stop shortly before he actually got to me and that would be it. Once, though, he lunged at me and bit my finger. He drew blood.

His owners are nice people, a young family with three small kids. Apparanelty they got this dog specifically because the breed is supposed ot be friendly. And the dog IS friendly -- to everyone else. There is no-one else he attacks. The post lady comes and goes freely. Visitors come and go, delivery people, the newspaper boy; most of all, all the other neighbours are fine with him.

We've discussed the problem. I've gone up to them when they had the dog on a lead and were in control, patted the dog's head, tried to make friends. He accepted the patting, but the next time he saw me, attacked me again. Last Christmas we all had a neighbourly get-together on the road with everyone drinking mulled wine and eating snacks. I was there and so was the dog, who ignored me. I thought all was OK now, but next time -- attack. When I meet them somewhere while they're walking the dog, the dog will fly into a frenzy and they have to pull him in. He's almost frothing at the mouth with rage. It's incredible.

Yesterday, I was just about to walk past their house; the dog was nowhere to be seen. Then I saw the front door open and one of the kids come out. I thought, uh-oh -- and indeed, next thing she was calling out the dog. He was hardly out the door before he saw me; next moment he was flying across the road like a cannonball. He flung himself at me and bit me in the stomach. Luckily I was wearing a thick jacket and that's what he got in the mouth; otherwise it would have been flesh. Almost threw me over. I mean, he leapt off the ground, this little tiny thing, and got me right in the belly! Imagine the rage behind that!

I was stunned. They all came out crying and called him back mother apologised and I went home.

Well, it can't go on this way. We've discussed it a few times and at first they thought it was my car that scared him but I changed car and it continued. They suggested that I "emit fear" but I certainly don't. I'm not a fearful person, though now I have to say I always check before I leave the house and won't go past if he is anywhere around. It's been winter and he's been mostly indoors. People have suggested that I smell differently, which could be true as I probably have a different diet to the typical German one; but yesterday for instance it was certainly sight, not smell, that instigated the attack. Can dogs be racist? That's the only difference between me and every other person he doesn't attack.

This is so upsetting. I want to get on with my neighbours. I want to walk freely past their home. Summer is approaching. They will have to put some kind of barrier or keep him indoors, or only let him into the back yard and make sure that is fenced off (at present it isn't).

Most of all, I want to know WHY???????

Old Hack · Apr 6, 2012

Aruna, I don't care how you smell or what you're emitting: the owners of this dog have a duty to keep it under control and stop it attacking you. They're the ones at fault here. You're not doing anything wrong.

The dog has bitten you so badly it's drawn blood. If you hadn't been wearing that thick jacket you could have been badly injured when it nearly knocked you down.

I wouldn't wait for anything to get worse here. I'd tell the police, and ask them to handle it. It doesn't matter what size this dog is (you say it's a bulldog but also that it's a little tiny thing, so I'm guessing it's a french bulldog, which is a small dog), or how nice its owners are: if it's attacking anyone then that's inappropriate, and the owners have to stop that happening right now. The fact that this has happened to you more than once means they're not doing all they should, even though they know how it's distressed you. So make it official. Tell the police, and tell your neighbours to control their aggressive dog.

aruna · Apr 6, 2012

Oh Lord, Old Hack, I can't! I need to do this through negotiation!
I know they will have to keep the dog inside and controlled, and I will tell them that.

When I say small, I mean below the knee. A short, stocky, muscular thing, like this. (ugly as hell!)

I think I'll get one of my neighbours to intervene. He's an ex-policeman and not only very nice, he's known me for 25 years (I lived in this house before.)

I still want to know why, and if it can be trained not to attack.

Old Hack · Apr 6, 2012

Aruna, those dogs are really heavy and powerful. That dog could do you some serious damage. Yes, it could probably be trained to not attack you: but such training would require a lot of time and effort from its owners. If they're aware that the dog has gone for you twice now and they're still not doing anything about it then I doubt they'll be willing to put the time in to train the dog appropriately. And even if they did I'd never, ever trust it 100%. I understand that you want to do this in a neighbourly way: but perhaps you could talk to the police and let them know what's happened, but tell them you're working with your neighbours so don't want them to take action at this time. Then if the dog has another go at you there'll be a documented history of events for the police to work with. But whatever happens, be careful. I think you're in danger here of getting hurt really badly, and I'm very worried for you.

heyjude · Apr 6, 2012

Aruna, I'm so sorry! How awful!

We've gone through something similar--our neighbor's dog bit my daughter (then 8). We told them we expected the dog to ALWAYS be on a leash outside, from now on, and for the most part he is. The next time we saw him without a leash we told them it's unacceptable for her to be frightened to be outside her own house and that if we saw him without a leash again, we'd be forced to call the police. We felt bad about it, we are dog people ourselves and believe that there are no bad dogs, but clearly something's wrong here.

No one should have to live in fear at their own home. Tell these people to get a leash and/or a fence and use it. :Hug2:

ETA: As to why, you may never know the answer to this. We recently adopted a dog who has what must be quite the past. She's petrified of guns and will charge my 7-year-old son if he has a Nerf or other play gun, growling and barking. Usually she loves him and is a submissive little girl.

regdog · Apr 6, 2012

Old Hack said:
Aruna, those dogs are really heavy and powerful. That dog could do you some serious damage. Yes, it could probably be trained to not attack you: but such training would require a lot of time and effort from its owners. If they're aware that the dog has gone for you twice now and they're still not doing anything about it then I doubt they'll be willing to put the time in to train the dog appropriately. And even if they did I'd never, ever trust it 100%. I understand that you want to do this in a neighbourly way: but perhaps you could talk to the police and let them know what's happened, but tell them you're working with your neighbours so don't want them to take action at this time. Then if the dog has another go at you there'll be a documented history of events for the police to work with. But whatever happens, be careful. I think you're in danger here of getting hurt really badly, and I'm very worried for you.

Seconding all of this and adding a big hug :Hug2:

The dog you gave a picture of is an English Bulldog.

aruna · Apr 6, 2012

Thanks! They are going to have to put up a LOT of fencing because one side of their property is open to an empty plot. Also, there will never be complete security, because when the kids come and go (as they did yesterday) they open the front door and the dog can easily slip out.
This is such a hassle. But living here was perhaps too good to be true -- I was settling into a pretty idyllic life with much time for writing!

night-flyer · Apr 6, 2012

Aw, Aruna I know that these are your neighbors and you all have to get along and live together, but like you said- it can't go on like this. If the kids are letting the dog out then they need to get a fence to keep it in the yard. It's their responsibility to keep the dog under control. I don't care if it's the sweetest beast on earth, it has attacked and it apparently will keep on doing so when the opportunity arises.

No matter the reason, it's not on you to have to figure it out. It's their responsibility as the owners of the dog. You've gone above and beyond being neighborly and trying to be friends with the dog and talking reasonably with the owners. If you see the dog out again unrestrained call Animal Control and clue them in on what's been happening. Don't wait until you're seriously injured. You have the right to be outside, walk around the neighborhood, or whatever without worrying about getting attacked. :Hug2:

We had a German Shepherd- best guard dog/family dog in the world. One day my mom was out watering the airconditioner and I was playing in the backyard. A black man came up behind her and grabbed her- knocking her to the ground. He hadn't notice the humongous shepherd lying under the bush by the a/c. Anyway the guy got away, bloody and probably seriously injured. After that day though our dog would go after every black man he saw except for our family members and friends that he already knew. I can't really say he turned racist, he may have just thought that every guy he went after and didn't know was the same man that attacked my mom.

Who knows what can trigger a dog to attack. Reguardless, it's not your fault. The owner's know there's a problem and they need to take the proper measures to keep you and others safe.

ETA: posted before I say your post, Aruna. Can't they just fence in a portion of the land just around the house in case it gets out?

cray · Apr 6, 2012

Old Hack said:
Aruna, I don't care how you smell or what you're emitting: the owners of this dog have a duty to keep it under control and stop it attacking you. They're the ones at fault here. You're not doing anything wrong.

The dog has bitten you so badly it's drawn blood. If you hadn't been wearing that thick jacket you could have been badly injured when it nearly knocked you down.

I wouldn't wait for anything to get worse here. I'd tell the police, and ask them to handle it. It doesn't matter what size this dog is (you say it's a bulldog but also that it's a little tiny thing, so I'm guessing it's a french bulldog, which is a small dog), or how nice its owners are: if it's attacking anyone then that's inappropriate, and the owners have to stop that happening right now. The fact that this has happened to you more than once means they're not doing all they should, even though they know how it's distressed you. So make it official. Tell the police, and tell your neighbours to control their aggressive dog.

this!

now. forget about hurt feelings.

i know that's easier said than done but really it is the only option.

until this is resolved, maybe you can carry a small jar of peanut butter or something to offer that dog as it attacks.
gawd, that sounds stupid. :Shrug:

don't listen to me.

listen to old hack though!!!!

peace.

heyjude · Apr 6, 2012

The peanut butter isn't a dumb idea!

Actually, I frequently carry a pocket-sized air horn. When the dog gets close, blast it. Stops them in their tracks.

Lyra Jean · Apr 6, 2012

No peanut butter. That's like a treat. If you have that every time the dog attacks it's getting a treat and you are training it to attack you. I would go with the air horn or something else unpleasant for the dog. Maybe pepper spray or bear spray or something.

If you do this let your neighbors know you are protecting yourself against their dog. Also what Old Hack said.

moth · Apr 6, 2012

Second all the advice above. (I'm a dog person too, I've had dogs all my life.) :Hug2:

aruna said:
when the kids come and go (as they did yesterday) they open the front door and the dog can easily slip out.

This is also the owners' responsibility to correct. My kids go in and out the front door all the time and all my animals (dogs and cats) know they're not allowed to follow. House rule. My kids know it too, and if one of the animals ever does try something cheeky they shut the door right away or yell for me or something.

It wasn't without work that I was able to institute that rule, though. One of my cats used to be an outside cat, and I decided I wanted her to be an inside cat like my other cat (for her own safety and for the safety of our local birds). It took over a year of vigilance on my part, with both training her and with reminding my kids to watch for her whenever they came inside, to get her to start respecting the rule, and though I've been able to dial it back some, I still keep a hawk's watch -- every so often she does look like she wants to try to make a break for it. Which is understandable, but hey, new rule, get used to it, miss kitty.

(Though I have to admit that the screen door accidentally slamming into her face [scaring her to pieces, not hurting her] at one point early on in the transition did help a lot

)

All of which is to say, your neighbors do need to be completely on board, long-term, in terms of controlling their pet. Maybe you could tell them (gently but firmly, in a neighborly way) that you know it seems like huge changes to make, but it also just goes along with having a pet, it's part and parcel. And you really don't want to have to involve the police, but if nothing changes you might be forced to, to protect your own safety.

Write it out, get the wording just right, and practice it a few billion times...?

Thinking of you.

ETA just saw this:

Lyra Jean said:
No peanut butter. That's like a treat. If you have that every time the dog attacks it's getting a treat and you are training it to attack you. I would go with the air horn or something else unpleasant for the dog.

Yes yes yes. Also yes to Lyra Jean's note about letting the owners know you'll be using an air horn or what have you, only as defense and only if necessary of course.

veinglory · Apr 6, 2012

The only time I have seen such specific issues with a person it was traced to a superficial similarity between that person and someone that had maltreated the dog in the past. So it may not be anything about you.

And a treat could work. Not everything is operant. The dog is not attacking to 'get' something but out of an emotion. Changing emotions is a job for Pavlovian psychology. It is hard to be psycho-enraged and eating a treat, and it is hard to hate someone who gives you treats. This could work if you find a treat the dog likes enough.

If you go the air horn or other aversive route you are writing off the possibility of changing the dog's mind about you being a basically 'not good thing'.

Lyra Jean · Apr 6, 2012

With the treat thing you can give it to the dog when he is nice to you. You said that has happened sometimes. This way the dog associates you with treats when he is not attacking you.

All my dog knowledge comes from shows like, "It's me or the Dog" and "The Dog Whisperer" I don't even own a dog I own a cat. So take my advice for what it is worth.

lbender · Apr 6, 2012

Hi. I agree with most of the others. It's not your fault or your responsibility. It's theirs. Go ahead and file a report to have it on record.

DO NOT try and make friends with the dog. That ship has sailed. You've tried already. It's a losing proposition to make friends with someone who's attempting to kill you at each meeting.

Protect yourself. The air horn idea is good. A super soaker will usually work. I'm not trying to be mean or cruel but, if necessary, carry a baseball bat. It's called self defense.

The object at this point is to coexist. If the dog decides to leave you alone because the alternative is too unpleasant, that's the best you can achieve at this stage.

Good luck.

randi.lee · Apr 6, 2012

Lyra Jean said:
No peanut butter. That's like a treat. If you have that every time the dog attacks it's getting a treat and you are training it to attack you. I would go with the air horn or something else unpleasant for the dog. Maybe pepper spray or bear spray or something.

If you do this let your neighbors know you are protecting yourself against their dog. Also what Old Hack said.

I am a dog trainer. I have been dealing with this sort of thing for years now. Lyra is absolutely right. Do NOT give this dog treats if it is going to teach the dog that attacking you is OK. This is a collosal mistake people make all the time.

YOU HAVE TO PUT RESPONSIBILITY ON THE OWNER.

I don't care how amicable you want to be, most of the time bad behavior in dogs is induced by the owner. They are likely putting out some kind of vibe or have done something in the past that has lead the dog to believe this type of behavior is appropriate. They're the ones who need to deal with this, whether it is fencing or a tether or only letting the dog out when they have it on a leash.

Here's the other thing you should really be thinking about if you want to remain friends with these people/ "save" this dog: If another person gets attacked do you really think the next victim is going to be as lenient as you? No. They're going to call the police, file a report and the dog will be put to sleep.

As well, the next person might not be as lucky as to recieve a puncture wound or two and not much else- and a puncture wound is bad enough! I was bit by a client's dog three weeks ago and I still can't put full pressure on the palm of my hand.

So what would you rather do? Temporarily piss off your neighbor or wait for this to happen to the next guy?

Lyra Jean · Apr 6, 2012

lbender said:
Hi. I agree with most of the others. It's not your fault or your responsibility. It's theirs. Go ahead and file a report to have it on record.

DO NOT try and make friends with the dog. That ship has sailed. You've tried already. It's a losing proposition to make friends with someone who's attempting to kill you at each meeting.

Protect yourself. The air horn idea is good. A super soaker will usually work. I'm not trying to be mean or cruel but, if necessary, carry a baseball bat. It's called self defense.

The object at this point is to coexist. If the dog decides to leave you alone because the alternative is too unpleasant, that's the best you can achieve at this stage.

Good luck.

You can't anthropomorphize an animal. It's not the same a human.

aruna · Apr 6, 2012

Thank a million to all your input. I am slowly coming around to the fact that I HAVE to risk a conflict in the neighbourhood, which was the thing I was trying to avoid. For a start, I'm a bit miffed that they have not come around to discuss it. They should have done that. Why should I go ringing on their doorbell, risking another attack when they open the door? They saw what happened (mum and kids). Seems to me they are avoiding the issue, and I can't let them get away with that.
I have since found out which is the correct instance to contact in Germany, and I'll call them on Tuesday just to discuss it and make sure that it's been reported.

I was tempted to try the friendship/treats thing, but I've decided I don't want to be friends with this dog. I'm going to see what I can get in the way of sprays or noise-makers.

If that dog had had a longer snout I'd have had puncture marks in my belly. The only thing that saved me from that was my coat and his flat face.

polleekin · Apr 6, 2012

I'm glad you're going to take steps to report this and force the owners to deal with it.

I love dogs. But when a dog is aggressive and the owners can't (or won't) keep it under control, that's not okay. That dog should never be allowed to run about off-lead. The first time he went after someone in an aggressive way, bite or no, they should have stepped up to deal with it.

My dog does not get along with other dogs. He growls and gets in their face. When I pass another dog on a walk, I am the one to cross the street to make sure he doesn't harass the other person or dog. That's my responsibility, not the responsibility of the person and dog just trying to pass on the street.

I've known two families who had their dogs put down by animal control after incidents of biting. That family needs to realize what will happen if they don't take this seriously and deal with it. Someone might get seriously injured by their dog, and ignoring the problem (or putting the blame on you in any way) is not okay and is not safe.

Good luck, I hope a good solution is found! I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

veinglory · Apr 6, 2012

Even if you go the treats route I would agree that the owner needs to be involved.

And given that this off-leash dog has attacked and drawn blood, they do need to step up and exercise control of the animal.

The reason why giving a treat to an attacking dog is not necessarily reinforcing aggression is because eating a treat and attacking a person a mutually exclusive behaviors. The dog's brain has to switch emotional tracks just to eat the treat and that switch is what gets trained and associated with seeing the person.

Many training books seriously neglect Pavlovian/respondent processes (involuntary/emotional/irrational behaviors) which are the primary processes underlying most aggression and fear and they work by fundamentally different principles than operant training.

In my experience Pavlovian actually trumps operant even when they are put in direct conflict--because the conflict itself causes emotional stress and when under emotional stress, Pavlovian learning comes to the fore.

For example, it is very difficult to teach an animal to not press a lever to get food (food will come so long as they don't press the lever). Food (yay! happy!) = beside lever (Lever is food!) = press (Lever is yay food press happy!) to an animal, no matter how you arrange the real contingencies.

aruna · Apr 6, 2012

polleekin said:
I love dogs. But when a dog is aggressive and the owners can't (or won't) keep it under control, that's not okay. That dog should never be allowed to run about off-lead. The first time he went after someone in an aggressive way, bite or no, they should have stepped up to deal with it.

.

In their defence, I have to say that: I'm the only person he attacks and b) it has not happened very much over the winter months (the dog was mostly indoors; whenever I've seen him he's been on a leash, but still outraged at seeing me!) and c) I've been away for four weeks so they weren't prepared.

This dog has run towards me in attack mode when I was getting into my car on my own driveway! It's really time they did something.

veinglory · Apr 6, 2012

Well, they really should keep the animal on their property. You may be one person, but also a neighbor.

p.s. being a psychologist I like rats

MaryMumsy · Apr 6, 2012

So sorry this is happening to you.

It may be color, it may be scent. My parents used to have a beagle who loved everyone. Except one neighbor and a friend's foster son. Both were half Native American. They were not dark, but must have smelled different.

Perhaps a squirt bottle with a water/ammonia mixture? If he gets close, squirt him in the face. If ammonia would be dangerous, maybe vinegar or something else that would sting his eyes and nose.

MM

polleekin · Apr 6, 2012

aruna said:
In their defence, I have to say that: I'm the only person he attacks and b) it has not happened very much over the winter months (the dog was mostly indoors; whenever I've seen him he's been on a leash, but still outraged at seeing me!) and c) I've been away for four weeks so they weren't prepared.

This dog has run towards me in attack mode when I was getting into my car on my own driveway! It's really time they did something.

You're the only one he's attacked so far, but they don't know why, and there's no way for them to know if another person will pass their house and get attacked. If even one person is worried to pass their house or get into their own car on their own property for worry that the dog will attack them, they are not taking responsibility for their dog.

One of the dogs I mentioned being taken by animal control would get loose constantly and lived next door to a family I knew. The dog went after people, but hadn't managed to bite anyone, just behave aggressively and snap. The owners were lax about it until the dog charged out one day when the door opened and bit a child in the face and leg. This happened because they didn't take the dog's earlier behaviors seriously enough.

Your neighbors are probably embarrassed by the way the dog is acting and may not know how to deal with it, but that doesn't let them off the hook when it comes to your right to walk down the street without getting attacked.

backslashbaby · Apr 6, 2012

I think the treat idea will probably work well, if you go that route. I'd use some really tasty treats that also make noise, like a bag you can shake. Shake the bag and throw some out as you walk by, ignoring the dog as much as possible (if possible) at first.

Later, you can shake the bag and not give any out until the dog calms down. Also, find out what word the neighbors use for 'No!' and say that firmly when the dog is bad. Say the dogs name, too.

It sounds mostly territorial, imho. The front walk/door is his guarded area, and he thinks you need to be guarded against. The neighbors could work on moving that area to their own door, etc, if they wanted, too. But that takes training

Dog Attack

On a wing and a prayer

Such a nasty woman

On a wing and a prayer

Such a nasty woman

Making my own sunshine

The Scavengers

On a wing and a prayer

roasting cows

Superior Life form

Making my own sunshine

Two years old now.

my own two hands

volitare nequeo

Two years old now.

Certified Non-Genius

Two years old now.

On a wing and a prayer

volitare nequeo

On a wing and a prayer

volitare nequeo

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