Unusual punctuation in Brit lit - I think this works

wonderactivist · Apr 2, 2012

Gosh, about 15 months ago, I posted about Chris Cleave's writing style in Incediary/Little Bee. Interesting conversation. Now I just finished Girl Reading and can't help but wonder what y'all think of Katie Ward's style:

She arrives glowing from the effort of running, strands of red hair coming loose from her kerchief (she tucks them in), marks on her neck like bruises on fruit. A few minutes late but not enough for anyone to mention it. Is almost surprised to find herself in the wards once more amid illness and suffering (on an evening such as this). Her mind is elsewhere. She accepts a dish, a spoon, instructions to feed a patient who rasps with each breath, whose sores stink, who has for eyes one piercing brown bead and one sagging black hole. Familiar and strange, ordinary and violent.

She does not smile encouragingly at the invalid to finish her meal, does not add to the whispered hubbub of the stone halls. They labour together in silence. The crone chews and swallows slowly despite the impulse of her body to reject what it consumes; the girl holds the spoon out, withdraws it, rests it; the food on the plate scarcely diminishes. Candle flames are skittish in the draught, creating the impression of hasty movement.

The old woman speaks; the girl is roused from her private thoughts. Who are you?

My name is Laura Agnelli.

That is not what I asked.

A patient in a bed further along screams with pain. There is a disturbance. Some run to her aid, some are disgusted and afraid to be close by.

Laura offers one last mouthful to her charge, wipes the remnants from her bluish lips. I am a daughter of Santa Maria della Scala hospital.

You are a foundling? What is your history?

I have none.

You have a name though.

The rector himself named me Agnelli. It means ‘lamb’. He is over there. Laura indicates, without pointing, Rettore Giovanni di Tese Tolomei, a man as wide as he is tall, his thumb tucked into his finery as he makes his inspection of the wards.

The woman swivels her eye towards him, then back to the girl. You were plucked from a crop of innocents by that man?

He showed me compassion because I was weak. He held me in his own arms and gave me his blessing, so I am told.

I am surprised he did not mistake you for a ham.

Laura frowns at the crone. He saved my life.

Did he?

And the lives of many foundlings, before and since.

But he bestowed his favour on you. It is not an honour I would wish for a daughter of mine.

My opinion is this works because her narrative prose is so lyrical and her dialog is clear even without the tags. I find this much easier to read than Cleave (whose Little Bee I liked) and some of the others I've tried.

As writers, sort-of experts on our craft, what do y'all think?

Thanks,

Lucie

danrupe · Apr 2, 2012

I'm no expert on the craft of writing unless it's code

But I have to totally agree, I found it very easy to read and very lyrical. No problems at all knowing who exactly was talking. I really like her style. Thank you for sharing!

wonderactivist · Apr 2, 2012

Of course you're an expert, Dan.

Thanks for sharing your view.

Fallen · Apr 2, 2012

I like it. Gives almost a crossover between thought and spoken dialogue, making it more intimate.

meowzbark · Apr 2, 2012

I thought the excerpt was written beautifully, but I couldn't handle an entire novel written as such. Her style forces my mind to work harder to figure out where the dialogue starts and stops. When I read, I like to be lazy and enjoy the story. I like to be able to pause and stop mid scene and have a helpful dialogue tag to tell me exactly who is speaking when I pick up the book later.

Symba · Apr 3, 2012

I think that was pretty good, though reading it as a whole made me actually think consciously about what I was reading.That's not normal since I am normally whisked away in the story by the time I read that much of a book. Maybe it just requires more effort

Either way I think it was great and it worked well. It's easy to tell who is speaking and I was able to visualize exactly what was going on.

Bufty · Apr 3, 2012

I couldn't tolerate that for a whole novel. Makes me dizzy.

Buffysquirrel · Apr 3, 2012

I find it tiring doing the work of separating narrative from dialogue. I expect the author to do that.

dpaterso · Apr 3, 2012

Works for me, too. Didn't have a problem with separating narration from dialogue, thought I would. Flows well. Technique not recommended for aspiring writers.

-Derek

BunnyMaz · Apr 3, 2012

I found it a lot easier to read than I expected to. It helps that the whole thing was very well written, of course. Flowed smoothly, but I'm not sure how well it would work if more than two people were talking/interacting.

wonderactivist · Apr 3, 2012

Thanks, y'all for your opinions. Fallen, I agree with it seeming more intimate at times. If you compare it to life, the dialog runs into and through inner thoughts like that.

meowzbark, Symba, Bufty and buffysquirrel, it IS harder to read in spots. Reading the full story, I did at times have to go back and figure out what was being said. BunnyMaz, it does get especially hard in scenes where more than two people are present. At times, though, it just didn't matter who has said that. So often, it really doesn't matter in larger scenes.

Her prose is beautiful, some spots just achingly so, and I think that gives this a more balanced feel that Cleave's which so many people didn't like at all. His prose is more jolting.

dpaterson, I do agree that this isn't a technique I want to try on my own yet. While it's her first book, Katie Ward did know Hilary Mantel through her work for a member of Parliament. Mantel's solid support helped the book get published. That isn't to say that it isn't completely brilliant--only she did have a connection, a leg up, to help her get publishers to take a closer look at the strange style.

But I'm wondering if this is a trend in Britain just now. Anyone know?

Thanks,

Lucie

Buffysquirrel · Apr 3, 2012

Not a clue about trends in British writing, sorry. Probably I ought to know, but all I'm doing lately is write.

Terie · Apr 3, 2012

wonderactivist said:
But I'm wondering if this is a trend in Britain just now.

Definitely not.

And as dpaterso said above, this is NOT a technique for new writers to try. I'm sure the author got away with it because of being well established. If an unknown writer queried a manuscript with no quote marks, it would very likely be thought to be an error and risk being auto-rejected.

Manuel Royal · Apr 3, 2012

Except for the spelling, nothing about it seems distinctly British to me. I like the excerpt; I'd just make it past tense. Oh, and put in quotation marks.

mirandashell · Apr 3, 2012

I stopped reading it halfway through.

I hate a lack of punctuation. Always have. Don't care how beautiful the words are. If I'm having to concentrate so hard on what is dialogue and what isn't, then I'm not getting caught up in the story. Which is what I actually want from a novel.

Bufty · Apr 3, 2012

I don't understand why anyone would bother going to the extent of leaving punctuation off.

I read for relaxation, and having to punctuate everything as I read it is not my idea of relaxation.

It's not unusual punctuation - it's non-existant punctuation and of course it's not a trend. It's a fetish.

Some will like - others hate it. Can't please everybody, as is normal.

wonderactivist · Apr 3, 2012

I appreciate your thoughts on this, Bufty, miranda, Terie, Manual and buffysquirrel. It does amaze me that it's her first book. Also interesting to me that Chris Cleave's Incindiary was also his first book.

I think sometimes a new author can get noticed by breaking the rules extremely well. In both these cases, NEW authors turned someone's head by making art of punctuation. In both cases, even though we might not find it easy to read, they used the punctuation--or lack thereof--to enhance their words.

I mean, that's what punctuation is about, isn't it?

Bufty said:
Some will like - others hate it. Can't please everybody, as is normal.

And I totally agree.

aruna · Apr 3, 2012

mirandashell said:
I stopped reading it halfway through.

I hate a lack of punctuation. Always have. Don't care how beautiful the words are. If I'm having to concentrate so hard on what is dialogue and what isn't, then I'm not getting caught up in the story. Which is what I actually want from a novel.

Ditto.

wonderactivist said:
In both these cases, NEW authors turned someone's head by making art of punctuation.

(my bold)
Oh dear.

In both cases, even though we might not find it easy to read, they used the punctuation--or lack thereof--to enhance their words.

I mean, that's what punctuation is about, isn't it?

No.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 3, 2012

Pretty good overall, but with sentences here and there that plain suck. Looks like writing critics would love, though. I couldn't read more than a couple of pages of it.

mirandashell · Apr 3, 2012

I don't think it does enhance the words. In what way do you think it does?

wonderactivist · Apr 3, 2012

mirandashell said:
I don't think it does enhance the words. In what way do you think it does?

I think the way the thoughts and the dialog run together in places is more like real life. In crowded rooms, we often DON'T know who said something. After a conversation with just three people, how often do you remember who said exactly what? Either way, thoughts and dialog run through each other in my head. I mean, isn't that why we so often tout "he said" so that we don't distract the reader? We want everything to flow more like a scene from reality. Dialog would be harder to write this way, as well as to read sometimes.

I agree, James and aruna, Katie Ward has not mastered this. She's good at it and I think it's an awesome first work though not everyone will want to read it.

The innovation sort of challenges me, like writing my posts on the 500-words-a-day thread in iambic pentameter for a month. It helps me to absorb ideas, rhythms that might come out in a small way in my prose ... someday. Who knows? I think I'll force myself at some point to rewrite a scene in this style, just for fun. It would force me to direct--as well as attribute--the dialog through the content only.

A challenge.

PPartisan · Apr 3, 2012

I naturally read all of this in a dull, staccato tone - I don't think it's a style that allows for much flexibility, so my hunch is that I'd quickly get bored of a novel written this way.

Unfortunately, if there were any clever turns of phrase they were lost in the "blah, blah, blah" rhythm I couldn't help but read this piece in.

mirandashell · Apr 3, 2012

I'm not sure how dialogue and thoughts running together is real life. Not in my experience anyway. My thoughts and the other person speaking don't always have any connection to each other. Sometimes my thoughts and what I'm saying don't have any connection to each other!

wonderactivist · Apr 3, 2012

PPartisan, so in your mind. it takes away the "voice" of the characters? Interesting. Thanks for sharing that thought. Again, I think if you were going to use this idea, it might be just ti MINIMIZE tags or find ways to intermix the dialog more completely with the thoughts.

One wouyld have to work super-hard to bring out the "voices" in this type of dialog.

Buffysquirrel · Apr 3, 2012

If you want to enhance the words in your writing, make them the focus. By leaving off the punctuation and making the reader do work that's unrelated to understanding the actual words, you detract from them. At least up until the reader gets used to the approach and is no longer aware of the work involved.

I remember this with The Road. Much as I loved that book, I think I was a third of the way in before the donts stopped bothering me. I can understand resenting the conventions but I don't understand making the reader work at things that aren't important.

Unusual punctuation in Brit lit - I think this works

wonderactivist

danrupe

Think think think...

wonderactivist

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

meowzbark

Symba

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Buffysquirrel

dpaterso

Also in our Discord and IRC chat channels

BunnyMaz

Ruining your porn since 1984

wonderactivist

Buffysquirrel

Terie

Writer is as Writer does

Manuel Royal

mirandashell

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

wonderactivist

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Jamesaritchie

mirandashell

wonderactivist

PPartisan

<><'ing for compliments

mirandashell

wonderactivist

Buffysquirrel