Looking for Four Beta Readers? Not any more. . .

Don't want much do you...

Might I ask what you are willing to offer in return?

Four novels is a great deal to ask for in one post, especially when you haven't said whether or not you'd be open to a swap or critiquing some of the readers' work in return.

My advice? Try pitching one novel at a time and be open to a swap or something along those lines. You may get more responses that way.

Also, try checking out the Willing Beta Readers Thread at the top of this forum for a small host of beta readers.

kkbe said:

Come, now. I wrote four novels. Are they any good? I think so, but. . .

I have 8 completed novels and not a one under 100,000 words. I think mine are good too, as a matter of fact, we all feel this way so you are not alone...

I'll be honest. I was hoping to find a beta-reader, one for each novel or, if somebody liked what they read, maybe they'd want to read more than one. Not looking for line-by-line. The longest is my last at 68,500. The shortest is something like 53,000. I was wondering if there were people who just wanted to beta-read.

Why should you expect to find a beta reader here when you have offered very little of your own services to the community? Beta reading is usually a give and take process. I beta read for you, you beta read for me...

Beta reading is very time consuming and dependent on what you want, versus what the beta can offer. If you just want someone to read the stories and give you an over view of praise for your writing skills, you can find those readers sitting at any of your local coffee shops. But if you want someone skilled, to critique your strengths and weaknesses, well that takes time from a beta.

Generally, I suggest to people to post a chapter or two in SYW. Any weaknesses you have in those chapters will more than likely repeat itself throughout the novel. This will also give other members a chance to judge your writing and your attitude about responses. But I see you have not reached the 50 post requirement for SYW yet, so you are trying to take a short cut. You will find some of the more experienced betas may resent that...

Does that make me a horrible person who deserves nothing and gets no replies, save one?

No, not a horrible person. Just someone who is overly anxious and wants to skip to the head of the class.

Click to expand...

If you have not already, you might want to read this thread to get an idea about beta request...

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212171

Still, someone may come along and offer to beta read, but my question is always as follows, what is their skill level? Your call...

No need to be harsh. The etiquette of when and how it is appropriate to request beta readers isn't necessarily obvious to a newcomer.

> Dear All who responded to my original posting

What original posting? You've went on and rewrote it. Another etiquette thingy.


> No need to be harsh.

You think that was harsh? *blinks twice*


> I shall post a new request for a beta reader,
> for my fourth novel only.

Here's a few tips.


SYW
First off, post the first chapter in SYW (Share Your Work) so people here can get some exposure to what you are doing, your style and genre, and have some early feedback on your work. Limit it to below 1K words in post (700-800 words is the sweet spot between tolerable length and having enough material for a good review). Believe me, what readers can find in 3 - 5 pages is usually replicated throughout the manuscript and you want to get those issues fixed before going to beta.

Beta
It's customary to ask to beta the first 3 - 5 chapters on a first contact. It's still some sizeable time off someone's busy schedule, but it offers them an easy way to opt out. Offering to reciprocate sweetens the deal. It's important to also specify what you are looking for. Not specifying anything is like asking for a full, line-by-line, monk work. Usually, aiming for high-level things is easier - tension & conflict, plot & arcs, voice, pace, characterization, descriptions, dialogues, etc. More than likely, someone who has gone through the first 3 chapters and hasn't found too many issues will just finish the novel.

- TIP -
Here's the secret in making SYW & Beta work for you: When a critter says that there's a problem somewhere, they're usually right. When they say what the problem is and how to fix it, they're usually wrong.


QLH
The query is the last step in the process - when the novel is complete and the issues fixed. Read the FAQ and the pinned threads first (very very important). Some people like to have early feedback on unfinished work and use the query as a springboard. Fine. Just say so. Explicitely.

Authors are expected to have a thick skin in QLH, not because the people roaming the board like to pick on newcomer, but because it's shy of the real world where feedback from agents is somewhere between non-existent and snarky (usually one or the other).

Hope this helps.

-cb

kkbe said:

I also read through the thread of listed beta readers and noticed that some did want to read, period. That's who I was looking for.

Click to expand...

I'm a beta who reads expecting nothing in return. I don't advertise, because I like to choose carefully what I take on, and both the writing itself and the attitude of the writer come into consideration.

A willingness to give says a lot about the writer, even if I'm not expecting anything from them. It's just reassuring to know that I'll be working with someone who might be half decent.

I'm not saying you're not half decent, but by your original post there was nothing to bolster my confidence. In fact, it was kind of the reverse.

I know a lot of the comments you're receiving might seem a bit harsh, especially as you're new around here, and I guess they are. But that's the culture at AW. It's made up of people who tell it like it is. Don't resent it. Embrace it, because, as an aspiring writer, they are exactly the type of people you need.

Good luck.

This is indeed the place to learn. Experience will get you far -- and many friends/colleagues along the way.

I don't think you've genuinely ticked anyone off. You're new, we get it, so there's more leniency. As long as you learn from your missteps, you will not only improve as a writer but also a member of this community (which, when I think of it, go hand in hand).

Happy writing, and I wish you luck finding a beta.

It's okay, honest, just trying to help. It's not a matter of sucking things up. Really, the only thing people were trying to tell you was how best to get the results you are looking for.

We're all here to learn, and we all learn from each other. The big, unfortunate thing with writing is that people respond to it. Whether it's a post in a forum, a query to an agent or a published book, people will say things about what you write, things you have no control over. It sucks, I know, but it's something a writer has to get used to. Better to get used to it here, among friends, than out in the big, foreboding jungles of Amazon.

You've got every right to vent it out. (Just do it with discretion – you don't want a mod banning you.)

And if you keep venting, you'll reach 50 posts in no time, and you can post something in SYW. PM me when you do. I liked the samples of your writing, and would love to see more.

ETA
It is a good idea to respond to other people's writing in SYW first. You know, etiquette and all.

kkbe, just wanted to chime in with a little encouragement.

I've seen people come here and ask for beta-readers without any interaction with others at all. When they don't get what they want immediately, they leave.

You've stuck with it and listened to what people had to say. For that, you've got awesome points in my book.

> but what about the beta-readers who say they
> just want to read? Was I wrong to seek out those
> people?

There are a few and unfortunately they don't advertise it. Often. Those who do have their Inbox filled by the next morning and their reading schedule filled for the next decade. The bulk of readers browsing the beta forum are writers themselves, having their own needs and busy schedules.

Then there are those who have seen your work in SYW and liked it, even posted a few crits or whom you have critted a few times, and one day you find a message in your Inbox offering to beta your next novel. And the next one. And the one after that.

If you're into AW just for the quick crits, then that's all you'll ever get. And even then, people see through that scheme and their interest wears off over time.


> Can't, until I get my 50.

Some other board is using a more sophisticated point system whereby you earn a point for each critique you make and after ten points you are allowed to put your work into the list of works to be critiqued for the month. And the critique has to follow a specific template which is a few pages long.

You're already at 36 posts as I write this. So it's not like writing 50 posts - participating in forums, really - is such a big deal all things considered.


-cb

kkbe,

because you ARE trying to learn, a quick tip:

sometimes newbies, in a rush to hit 50 posts, run up 20 incredibly useful gems like "I SOOOOO want to read that!" as critiques, basically vomiting one-liners and three-word platitudes to game the 50-post rule. Don't.

At the same time, you have like 15 to go--you could knock that out in two hours of critiquing and offering opinions in the novels and basic writing wuestions and other forums here--it isn't that hard.


as for betas who just like to read, even they probably want some idea what they are committing to, which is aprt of what others are stressing--you're a total unknown right now. That might mean you have fanfic that would make a second-grader blush; we just don't have any idea. And the folks who do beta gratis still make, and keep, commitments, so they want some idea what they're signing on for.

in addition to that, here's something to consider: AW can teach you more per hour than Strunk or Lukeman or whoever else is writing books, imho--you learn more in a discussion format than a lecture, and having several versions of the same lesson or opinion given can help with understanding what is being presented. All of which is to say you came here for a beta, and that's fine, but if you really want to write, you'd be better-served to come here as an actual member. Get your own hands dirty. Participate, even if you might get called out as "wrong" on occasion. It will also help your work. Immensely.


welcome (a bit late) to the site, and don't be upset about the posts earlier; learn from them.

It is a good idea to respond to other people's writing in SYW first. You know, etiquette and all.

Click to expand...

sometimes newbies, in a rush to hit 50 posts, run up 20 incredibly useful gems like "I SOOOOO want to read that!" as critiques, basically vomiting one-liners and three-word platitudes to game the 50-post rule. Don't.

Click to expand...

Both of these. Go to the SYW forum and read and crit other people's stuff before you even think about posting yours. You'll learn more through that than you will from a beta. Betas are for tightening something that's already been edited to death. I know for me, reading in SYW and giving feedback, real feedback, helped me turn a more critical eye to my own writing.

Bear in mind, it's okay to go against quicklime's advice I quoted sometimes, and by that I mean if ten people have already commented and pointed out all the things you were going to point out, you don't want to rehash and beat the writer over the head with things. You can just post and say "I agree with _______". I find if multiple people find the same problem, it's definitely something I need to fix.

Critiquing is important because, like quicklime said, it helps others see how you critique and whether it matches what they're looking for. The best way to get betas, and the nice thing to do, is swap work.

QLH is also a fantastic place to learn. I would even say to read and and read and read and critique several other posts, then edit your own query again before you post your query there for critique. That way you can already be aware of and avoid the most common mistakes.

Immerse yourself here. There are forums for just about everything and lots of ways to get involved.

kkbe said:

How many damn postings do we really need before you people start taking us seriously?

Click to expand...

One.

kkbe said:

As for my work. . .I am about to post my fiftieth, and then. . .well, then, I have to figure out which SYW I should stick it in. I dunno, I'd better check it out. . .novel, or Contemporary Fiction? Not Erotica, geez, I still don't know the darn password. Probably because I'm still considered a lousy newbie.

How many damn postings do we really need before you people start taking us seriously?

Click to expand...

The SYW Erotica forum's password you have to request, I believe. It's so the mods can verify that you are of the appropriate age; it has nothing to do with you being new.

As for being taken seriously, we're a unique community. Post count doesn't really matter. Around here the content of the posts tend to be more important. People are more likely to remember bits of advice you've given and what you contributed to a discussion (and the community in general) than the number of posts you've made.

kkbe said:

Question: What does ". . .you have fanfic that would make a second-grader blush" mean?


How many damn postings do we really need before you people start taking us seriously?

xoxo Karen

Click to expand...

it was a reference to really bad writing--if you snoop any fanfic boards, some of it is bad enough you'll start silently begging your retinas to shut down....and it was an example, not a judgement, as I haven't seen anything of yours....just saying "really bad writing" in that example

Relax. Take a deep breath. Trust me when I say that you are not under attack. This is one reason it has been suggested that you spend some time in the different forums and become a part of the community.

You will see certain people all over the place. Quicklime is one person you'll see all over. If you spend enough time reading you'll get to know the "voices" of many of those people.

I'm fairly new myself. I've been around just long enough that maybe some people will recognize me. But I can say that I don't think Quicklime had any intention of being mean.

I didn't see your original post looking for betas, but I have read this thread. You made a newbie type mistake. Big deal. You have apologized and expressed a desire to learn the etiquette and get to know the way AW works. Just for doing that most folks will go along. No grudges.

So take the advice above. Post something short in SYW. I advise only posting one thing at a time. Every time someone posts something new, someone else gets bumped off the bottom of the front page. This is not said to discourage you from posting. But, one person posting multiple pieces will bump several people off the front page. To me this looks a bit selfish.

There are lots of etiquette things to learn. I am still learning many of them. I understand the excitement of finding a place full of talented and knowledgeable writers and wanting to take advantage of it. I am working very hard to restrain myself from running through the halls and shouting. But that just annoys people, so I try. I don't know how well I'm succeeding though.

Read the advice threads in each forum. They are a good place to start. Asking questions is cool. If all else fails, there is an "Ask the Mods" thread in the new members forum here.

So, finally, just relax and enjoy AW. Welcome.

> I seem to have difficulty expressing myself

No. You are confusing comments directed at your written words with personal attacks. Personal attacks are not tolerated here; they are flagged to mods who take action accordingly.


When someone writes "this is bad writing", the comment is aimed at the submitted work, not the author. The proper response to "this is bad writing" (and all its various declinations) is to say "Thank you" and go find a way to fix it.


> one person posting multiple pieces will bump several
> people off the front page

Frequent posters are bound to hit the law of diminishing return at some point -- when critters have had enough that they ignore subsequent uploads. Churning complete rewrites of Chapter 1 every hour will reach that point much faster. Tuning a query for a day or two before going back to a more normal posting pace may not. It's one of those "it depends".

All in all, the system works as intended.


The real mistake, if there is one, is think one doesn't have enough experience to post. We're all experienced readers, we all can tell what works for us and what doesn't. Jump in with both feet and give your honest opinion; at the end of the day, that's what the author asked for.


-cb