The Atheists' "Reason Rally" in D.C.

Opty · Mar 25, 2012

Anyone here go to it? It's an atheist rally in Washington, DC going on right now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/24/atheist-rally_n_1377443.html

Just wondering if anyone went and/or what folks think of it.

"Up with Chris Hayes" had a pretty good show this morning devoted to atheism that's worth a watch.

http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/

muravyets · Mar 25, 2012

I'm not there. I have a friend who is. And I so totally love Chris Hayes' show. The discussion this morning was wonderful. Just thought I'd mention.

hlynn117 · Mar 26, 2012

Opty said:
"Up with Chris Hayes" had a pretty good show this morning devoted to atheism that's worth a watch.

http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/

That was one of the best segments he's done in a while. But really, I love his panel discussions. They're always top quality. I read freethoughtblogs, the bastion of atheism, so I've picked up a lot of enthusiasm for the rally. I saw Jamilla Bay speak this summer, and I liked how she describes the importance of coming out as an atheist. I will add you don't have to come out to everyone, only to those you feel comfortable around. I'm fairly closed mouthed around my family, and I file this away as respecting their culture, which is tied closely with their religious community.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 26, 2012

I am an "out" atheist, and comfortable enough with my atheism that I don't feel any need to commune with other atheists to support my disbeliefs. But it's nice for others who may get something positive out of the event.

Lyv · Mar 26, 2012

None of my friends who attended went to have their disbelief supported. My friends mostly went to network, to hear speakers they enjoy or admire, to learn about activism, things like that.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 26, 2012

I can't open the link, it keeps blowing up my brOswer.

But I've always found gathering in groups because you share the lack of a belief rather strange.

"Hey! I don't believe in unicorns!"

"what? No way! I don't believe in unicorns either! We should so form a group!"

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 26, 2012

Shadow_Ferret said:
I can't open the link, it keeps blowing up my brOswer.

But I've always found gathering in groups because you share the lack of a belief rather strange.

"Hey! I don't believe in unicorns!"

"what? No way! I don't believe in unicorns either! We should so form a group!"

Depends. There's a great relief that can come in finding people who share a lack of a commonly held view that is backed up by social force. For example, I live in Chicago and have no interest whatsoever in any sports. Believe me, it's wonderful running into people who also don't care about that.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 26, 2012

But you still believe sports exist, right?

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 26, 2012

Shadow_Ferret said:
But you still believe sports exist, right?

Now, you're being pedantic or witty. I get those two confused sometimes.

In all seriousness. There is a sense of isolation in atheism. The culture is very strongly against it in subtle ways. And most people have a hard time feeling that sense of isolation.

There's a reason that Atheists use the language of the gay rights movement to discuss their status ("out atheist" or "closeted atheist"). I'd have to find the source, but I recently read a gay atheist who lives in the South talk about the fact that it was easier to come out to his strongly Christian family as gay than as an atheist.

backslashbaby · Mar 26, 2012

Atheists also run into legitimate civil rights issues. I think it makes complete sense for folks to 'come out' and say that they are atheist and have rights that aren't always being respected and all that jazz. It's important.

Zoombie · Mar 26, 2012

Part of the problem is people assuming that atheists JUST disbelieve. We've got philosophy and desires and reasons to want to know, meet and talk with each other.

Like...

No one bats an eye when a group of Christians gets together for any reason. Christian book clubs, Christian bible reading groups, Christian colleges...all that stuff is normal. But when ATHEISTS want to get together for anything, people get weirded out.

Hell, when I was a teenager, a friend of mine mocked another friend of mine's father for being part of an Atheist organization. He'd go, "What do they DO, get around in a circle and say, 'WE Don't believe in god!'"

Complete with falsetto and foppish gestures, as if it were SO SILLY that people might want to gather under an atheist banner as opposed to a Christian cross.

It's a pervasive bias and it sucks.

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 26, 2012

There are serious debates among atheists about how to challenge religiosity in society and what things should be challenged and so on. For a good summary of some of the issues of atheism, here's a link to a video (it's hour 1 of a 2 hour discussion) from the so-called Four Horseman of Atheism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKhc1pcDFM

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 26, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
Now, you're being pedantic or witty. I get those two confused sometimes.

In all seriousness. There is a sense of isolation in atheism. The culture is very strongly against it in subtle ways. And most people have a hard time feeling that sense of isolation.

There's a reason that Atheists use the language of the gay rights movement to discuss their status....

Maybe it's just me then. But I dont use any special language. Nor do I feel isolated. I simply don't define myself by my lack of a belief. It makes no sense to me to even discuss something that is non-existant.

I join groups and forums to discuss things I enjoy, collect, do. Like writing, comics, sci-fi, and so on. Things that exist and I can talk with others on how they've improved, or added to, or bought or sold.

Williebee · Mar 26, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
For example, I live in Chicago and have no interest whatsoever in any sports.

You evil bastard. People like you are the reason the Cubs can't get to the World Series.

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 26, 2012

Shadow_Ferret said:
Maybe it's just me then. But I dont use any special language. Nor do I feel isolated. I simply don't define myself by my lack of a belief. It makes no sense to me to even discuss something that is non-existant.

I join groups and forums to discuss things I enjoy, collect, do. Like writing, comics, sci-fi, and so on. Things that exist and I can talk with others on how they've improved, or added to, or bought or sold.

That's just fine. There's another way to look at this than shared lack of belief, there's being part of a group of people who are looked at by society in a certain way. One of the oddities of human thought is that groups are often created by people treating them as a single group.

People with little in common often band together when attacked or when classified as the same.

To take a far more extreme example. When Ghandi was a young lawyer in South Africa, he had bought into a mythology that the British colonial system had taught that of the "Little Brown Englishman". He was a British educated lawyer, but he discovered on a train that as far as the British were concerned he was just another -- Fill in the blank.

It's true that atheists don't necessarily have a lot in common except lack of belief. But in some places that lack of belief is strongly imposed on. There are schools in this country that push Christianity very hard (public schools) and atheist parents discover that their children are ostracized by teachers and students. They discover that they are in a group, not because they choose to be in one, but because others define them as being in that group.

You may be taking your own ease at the situation too casually for other people who are having a harder time of it.

backslashbaby · Mar 26, 2012

I have a cousin for whom this issue was one of the main conflicts in his life. He grew up in a different set of schools, neighborhood, etc, than me. It has been many years now, but he still does political writing about what it was like and what the ostracism did to him.

kuwisdelu · Mar 26, 2012

So is this, like, atheist atheists, or were there agnostics and non-theists and the like, too?

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 26, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
You may be taking your own ease at the situation too casually for other people who are having a harder time of it.

To be honest, I have no idea about that. I wasn't raised within a religion. We never attended church. Christmas and Easter were strictly about Santa and the bunny. I had no formal religious education. I attended cub scouts but had no idea it had any religious overtones. In fact, it wasn't until just a few years ago that I learned the song "this little guiding light of mine" was t about a flashlight. The first time I heard the word "epiphany" was in a fiction workshop in college.

Mharvey · Mar 26, 2012

Zoombie said:
Part of the problem is people assuming that atheists JUST disbelieve. We've got philosophy and desires and reasons to want to know, meet and talk with each other.

Like...

No one bats an eye when a group of Christians gets together for any reason. Christian book clubs, Christian bible reading groups, Christian colleges...all that stuff is normal. But when ATHEISTS want to get together for anything, people get weirded out.

Hell, when I was a teenager, a friend of mine mocked another friend of mine's father for being part of an Atheist organization. He'd go, "What do they DO, get around in a circle and say, 'WE Don't believe in god!'"

Complete with falsetto and foppish gestures, as if it were SO SILLY that people might want to gather under an atheist banner as opposed to a Christian cross.

It's a pervasive bias and it sucks.

It's like all biases. People are reluctant to accept what they don't understand.

I don't understand atheism, just as I don't understand most religions. To me, most of the most celebrated religions (even one based on the lack of divine providence, like atheism) require leaps of faith that I'm not capable of making.

Still, I'd like to go to an Atheist rally sometime just to listen and take in the atmosphere. I'm sure it would be a good time. And I bet I have 10x more in common with them than I do with the average Catholic.

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 26, 2012

Shadow_Ferret said:
To be honest, I have no idea about that. I wasn't raised within a religion. We never attended church. Christmas and Easter were strictly about Santa and the bunny. I had no formal religious education. I attended cub scouts but had no idea it had any religious overtones. In fact, it wasn't until just a few years ago that I learned the song "this little guiding light of mine" was t about a flashlight. The first time I heard the word "epiphany" was in a fiction workshop in college.

That's fine. As I say, I'm not complaining that you don't feel put upon. It's a good thing. I'm pretty secure as well living in the shadow of the University of Chicago, and having scared off the Jehovah's Witnesses by knowing more theology and religious history than they did, but neither your experience nor mine generalizes to the people who do feel put upon and in need of knowing they're not alone, and in need of fighting back against attempts to establish Christianity in the public schools their kids go to.

muravyets · Mar 26, 2012

kuwisdelu said:
So is this, like, atheist atheists, or were there agnostics and non-theists and the like, too?

What does "non-theist" mean, assuming it's not a synonym for "atheist"? I can never keep up with all the jargons in life.

kuwisdelu · Mar 26, 2012

muravyets said:
What does "non-theist" mean, assuming it's not a synonym for "atheist"? I can never keep up with all the jargons in life.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that atheists actively disbelieve in a god or gods. My impression of non-theist is a more passive disbelief, or someone for whom the idea of a god or gods just doesn't play much of role, but who doesn't "actively" disbelieve in a god any more than they actively disbelieve in aliens, bigfoot, or unicorns. And agnostics were more of the opinion that there is either compelling evidence both ways, or of the belief that it is impossible to know whether a god or gods exist.

I can't really identify as an atheist. But I'm something of a non-theist or agnostic. I have my own thoughts about the possibilities of a god or gods, but they follow no organized religion, and religion plays no role in my life outside of tribal traditions. There are times I think there is no god, and there are times I think god is a novelist, and there are times I think god is us. But I don't believe in a "God" as religions tend to offer.

Don · Mar 26, 2012

muravyets said:
What does "non-theist" mean, assuming it's not a synonym for "atheist"? I can never keep up with all the jargons in life.

I've heard it said "If religions are TV channels, atheism is the 'off' button." Expanding the metaphor, I'd say non-theists don't even own the TV.

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 26, 2012

Don said:
I've heard it said "If religions are TV channels, atheism is the 'off' button." Expanding the metaphor, I'd say non-theists don't even own the TV.

There's also a line running around the new Atheists. Roughly it's:

Everyone's an atheist for other people's gods. We just have one more we don't believe in.

thebloodfiend · Mar 26, 2012

I've always thought that a non-theist was the same thing as an atheist, but different from an anti-theist, and different from someone who was simply non-religious.

I'm just an atheist. I only know one other atheist. Saying I don't believe in a god to my parents, who're non-religious but not atheists, would be as bad as hypothetically saying I'm gay.

I understand the desire to be part of a group. Being surrounded by people who think you're weird for not believing in god or going to church and having to explain why you don't believe what they believe gets tiring. It's nice to discuss lack of belief and why you came to certain conclusions without people presuming that you're some anti-moralistic idiot who needs to be saved from the crazy atheists who're out to rip God from the hearts of every child and send them to hell. I'm close to becoming an anti-theist, too.

The Atheists' "Reason Rally" in D.C.

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