Playhouse Temperature Question

FranOnTheEdge · Mar 10, 2012

Hi,
I have 5 questions – all about the same thing:
I need an estimate of the probable ambient temperature in a theatre box in the UK (Essex).
This theatre has been converted into a pub, but still retains many elements of the original theatre:
The theatre boxes, the upper circle – which also still has all its seating. The stage has been lowered to almost equal the rest of the auditorium, and there are still various painted backdrops hanging over the stage – as if ready to be lowered or standing for actual items – like a painted chandelier and some painted curtains and columns with flying cherubs – etc etc. The stage and auditorium are completely carpeted throughout, as is the upper circle. The boxes are not but the box where the body fell from has a cast iron garden type table and 2 chairs, and there look to be curtain hangings at the front of the box, but again like on stage these are painted.

Q 1) I need some idea of what the ambient temperature in such a location (the box) would be, can anyone tell me?

The body falls (actually it is ejected by a device) onto a table situated in the auditorium below.
Q 2) Can anyone tell me what the ambient temperature around the body after it has fallen onto the table might be?

Q 3) Can anyone tell me what the liver temperature of the body might be if it was frozen immediately after death, and brought to the theatre/pub sometime later, like a few days?

Q 4) I'd like the body to show signs of the ejection from the box, can I have rigor present in such a body? so that some parts of the body show these signs, like the legs being lose (due to muscle fibres having been broken by the force of the ejection) what else, might show such signs?

[FONT=&quot]Q 5) I need to know what else the County Pathologist would notice about such a body, (apart from the temperature being rather lower than he expects from its current situation) can anyone help?

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Snick · Mar 10, 2012

The tempratures can be whatever you want them to be. Without making observations (readings) in the actual place there is no way to know for sure, and there are many variables. One would expect the upper tier to be warmer than below, but there might be air currents that waould make it otherwise. There are as many or more variables about the liver temperature.

mirandashell · Mar 10, 2012

No idea. If it's a nightclub situation, they are usually pretty warm.

But it can be whatever you need it to be for your story.

jclarkdawe · Mar 10, 2012

Impossible to answer. Starting point is the outside air temperature, followed by whatever the heating source is inside. Then to figure out a body's loss of temperature rate, you've got to have some idea of size and fat distribution.

FranOnTheEdge said:
Q 2) Can anyone tell me what the ambient temperature around the body after it has fallen onto the table might be? If there is a marked difference between the body's temperature and the room's temperature, then if you're very close you'd feel a slight difference, but it's about the same as being next to a fifty pound block of ice on a hot day. Until you're right on top of it, it's not noticeable.

Q 3) Can anyone tell me what the liver temperature of the body might be if it was frozen immediately after death, and brought to the theatre/pub sometime later, like a few days? If a body is completely frozen, all parts would be 32 degrees F. or colder. Thawing a body would take a considerable amount of time, depending upon the temperature. Think about how long it takes to thaw a turkey. During the defrosting process, it is also probable that surface decomposition would set in. Decomposition starts somewhere around 24 hours (depending upon temperature) to be noticeable to trained observers. It's unlikely a medical examiner would take the liver temperature in this situation, as it is completely meaningless.

Q 4) I'd like the body to show signs of the ejection from the box, can I have rigor present in such a body? so that some parts of the body show these signs, like the legs being lose (due to muscle fibres having been broken by the force of the ejection) what else, might show such signs? Rigor normally starts about four hours after death in the face and head, reaching maximum at twelve hours, and leaves last through the arms and feet. Temperatures down near freezing will significantly delay the process. Thawing and rigor leaving will be in close competition. Difference will be thawing will leave deeper tissue last, while rigor will leave the fingers and toes last. And I'm not sure there's any good material about thawing and rigor. Forensically, it's probably meaningless, as the most likely situation is a body that's been outside and has been frozen for several days.

Freezing also impacts tissue in ways that a doctor would notice.

[FONT=&quot]Q 5) I need to know what else the County Pathologist would notice about such a body, (apart from the temperature being rather lower than he expects from its current situation) can anyone help? Biggest thing the pathologist would notice is the post-mortem lividity pattern. This indicates the position of the body after death as blood settles to the lowest points. Beyond that, at the scene, probably not much of anything.

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A body, over the space of time (size dependent and fat content dependent) will gradually reach the same temperature as the surrounding air/ground. Roughly about 24 hours after death, but there are a lot of factors involved. Liver temperature decreases at a steady rate, which is factored with the air temperature. The variance becomes a bigger and bigger problem as time goes by.

Basically you figure loss of temperature at the rate of 1.5 degrees F. per hour. Let's say the outside temperature is 50 degrees F. Or in other words, in about 30 hours, the body will have reached 50 degrees F. But this can vary by a considerable amount, depending upon even such things as clothing.

(If you want to see how slow this really is, take a five gallon container and fill it with water. Weight will be about 40 pounds. Stick it in either your refrigerator or freezer and see how long it takes for it to reach the refrigerator's or freezer's temperature. It will be longer then you think, and this is only about 25% of the mass of a human body, nor does the water container provide insulation.)

I'm assuming you want to confuse the pathologist or medical examiner. If that's the case, don't freeze the body, just deep chill it to just above freezing. At that point you don't have the tissue damage that freezing causes. But rigor will have left the body by the time you get this all said and done. And if the medical examiner is any good, it won't work.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

FranOnTheEdge · Mar 10, 2012

jclarkdawe said:
Impossible to answer. Starting point is the outside air temperature, followed by whatever the heating source is inside. Then to figure out a body's loss of temperature rate, you've got to have some idea of size and fat distribution.

A body, over the space of time (size dependent and fat content dependent) will gradually reach the same temperature as the surrounding air/ground. Roughly about 24 hours after death, but there are a lot of factors involved. Liver temperature decreases at a steady rate, which is factored with the air temperature. The variance becomes a bigger and bigger problem as time goes by.

Basically you figure loss of temperature at the rate of 1.5 degrees F. per hour. Let's say the outside temperature is 50 degrees F. Or in other words, in about 30 hours, the body will have reached 50 degrees F. But this can vary by a considerable amount, depending upon even such things as clothing.

(If you want to see how slow this really is, take a five gallon container and fill it with water. Weight will be about 40 pounds. Stick it in either your refrigerator or freezer and see how long it takes for it to reach the refrigerator's or freezer's temperature. It will be longer then you think, and this is only about 25% of the mass of a human body, nor does the water container provide insulation.)

I'm assuming you want to confuse the pathologist or medical examiner. If that's the case, don't freeze the body, just deep chill it to just above freezing. At that point you don't have the tissue damage that freezing causes. But rigor will have left the body by the time you get this all said and done. And if the medical examiner is any good, it won't work.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Yes I know about the red bit above. My problem is I don't have a thermometer, plus I no longer live in the area where this book is based, (so I can't take the temp directly) so I wanted to know what would sound feasible, for instance for a warm spring day, not roasting summer, nor the depths of a freezing winter, just... in the middle.

This is NOT a night club - just a UK pub. It is unusual in that its dimensions and a lot of its contents are still Theatre, (carpets, and cinema seats, plus a very high domed roof over the auditorium, and bare brick walls behind the stage backdrop and up high on stage), (but with added Pub - i.e. lots of tables and chairs made of wood with no upholstery.)
The stairs by which the theatre box is accessed is bare painted concrete, and the box isn't carpeted, but is almost entirely enclosed - baring the view from the front, and a closed door at the back and at the side.

Now I don't know what difference any of that would make - but I can say that walking in there earlier this year when I was able to visit: it felt quite warm, not hot, not even hot enough to force me to take my winter coat off while taking photos of the place, but not cold either - if I'd been staying, I'd have been perfectly comfortable sitting there with coat off.

No, I DON'T want to confuse the Pathologist - he's an intelligent chap - I just want him to delay telling the Inspector in charge of the case 'Time Of Death' - and wanted to know if that would be feasible/make sense, if he takes the liver temp' and finds it lower than expected (result of the freezing) - so I thought he would then want to investigate further before committing himself.
Does that make sense?

I wanted to use freezing because that would keep the body stiff enough to eject better, and because when the body's ejected the force of that would prematurely break rigor in certain places, (knees, ankles, maybe hips).

Also freezing delays the onset of rigor, and can thus make things more complex.

The book I have says ambient temp is around 70 degrees, but a lot of these books are written by Americans, and so I didn't think would be correct for ambient temp in the UK, also it doesn't say what ambient temp it is talking about, (i.e. where and when) so that kind of threw me - I think it's written by an American because he talks about an M.E. - and here in the UK we have pathologists and county pathologists, and coroners, and police doctors, but no M.E.

I could have the killer freeze the body, intending that to keep the body in a standing position, so he/she can arrange the ejection from the box, but not realise that the body will have almost thawed by the time it is ejected from the box.

(I also want the body to be recognisable when its fallen, and the time I had intended for all this to take since the death, it might have begun decomp, and thus might not be so recognisable - thus the freezing to account for the delay in decomp.)

The onset of rigor is so difficult to guage how long it might take, that I didn't think my killer would be happy relying on it to keep the body stiff and thus standing, and the killer really, really wants the body to pop out of this box and land in front of someone below - the other victim.

So I just needed some idea of sensible sounding temperatures for the UK, for the body, the box and the table below.
(I don't have a freezer, a scales to weigh 40 pounds, or a 5 gallon container - actually I don't even have a 1 gallon container!)

I've managed to find the temperature in 2005 in Colchester, UK:

I just hoped someone who was good at maths could come up with a reasonable range of temperatures that would sound okay (for the UK). I just don't want it to sound impossible.

jclarkdawe · Mar 10, 2012

If I'm understanding you correctly, you want a human body that's stiff enough to stand vertically to fall relatively intact in that position.

First off, the coroner (as you say, this is correct for England) will refuse to say much about the time of death if the post-mortem lividity does not match the position of the body, without a whole lot more testing.

So the outside temperature is between 13.6 (56.5 F.) to 19.9 (68.0 F.). How much this will impact the inside temperature is debatable, however. For the sake of coming up with a number, let's say the building inside is 23.0 (74.5 F.). This would feel a bit warm, although not excessively so. However, if you want a different inside temperature, you should be able to figure this out.

Body is immediately put into a walk-in freezer upon death. Freezer has good ventilation, with circulating air, enabling the body to freeze at a reasonable pace. After 48 hours, I think it would be safe to assume the body to be solidly frozen. It might freeze somewhat faster then this, but I think you'd have to get somewhat fancy to accomplish that. Post-mortem lividity would be in the feet and hands if the body was stored in a vertical position (probably accomplished by use of a meat hook).

Rigor mortis would start to set in during the freezing process, but would probably not be complete by the time the body is fully frozen. But I don't think I'd want to rely on what state the rigor would be in during the thawing process. I'd rely instead on the freezing process.

I think I'd figure defrosting to occur at the rate of 1.1 (2.0 F.) degrees per hour. I think I'd fully dress the body, realizing that the more clothing I put on the body, the more insulation I'd be providing and the longer the thawing would take. (On the flip side, you can't dress a frozen stiff very easily and if you put the clothes on before the body freezes, it slows the freezing process. If you want a good description of working with a body and dressing it, read THE MAN WHO NEVER WAS.)

In the US, a meat freezer is maintained at -23.3 (-10 F) to -17.8 (0 F.) and a body left in a freezer for a significant time period would be at the same temperature. Just to warm it up to 0 (32.0 F) would require about 16 hours. I think I'd just rely on keeping the body frozen and I think you'd probably still have a solidly frozen stiff for a considerable length of time.

My guess to thaw the body to room temperature of 23.0 would take about another 21 hours, making a total of about 37 hours to get the body to room temperature, and maybe longer. This is not doing anything really to help thaw the body, like running warm water over it. Just like a pound of meat thawing on your counter, thawing would start at the outside and gradually work its way through the entire body. But that internal lack of thawing is what's going to keep the joints stiff.

Interesting problem. I don't know if this helps you solve what you're trying to do.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

FranOnTheEdge · Mar 12, 2012

Thank you, that certainly helps a good deal.
I don't think a walk-in freezer is going to be possible - I want to keep the field of suspects open to the 8 or 9 people I have for as long as possible, so a freezer large enough to take a body is fine but a walk-in one would be a professional thing - probably available only to a butcher, professional chef or such like - and none of my suspects are that, but almost all have enough money to make owning a large enough freezer a natural thing.

So the fact that lividity would occur along the back of the body if laid flat, or along the side if placed that way in say, a large chest freezer - is fine for me.

If freezing isn't uniform, that also won't matter - either to me or to my killer so long as it freezes enough to make the ejection work.

I think he/she'd dress the body before freezing it, doesn't matter if that makes the freezing take longer so long as it's calculable - i.e. so long as my killer can figure that out.

The killer wants the ejection to occur at a specific time, so the killing would be calculated to occur in plenty of time, to allow for freezing.

The body does not need to be completely thawed, it just needs to be recognisable by the recipient of the ejection process. I'd like one hand to be able to flop over - but that's just me and the way it's written at the moment - the hand flopping into a dish of chocolate and cream, has been mentioned as a good bit, so I'd like to keep it if possible.

So could it be that the limbs are still stiff enough to withstand ejection so as to land where the killer wants it to land, and perhaps to break various muscle fibres due to the force of ejection, so that the hand can flop, and the Pathologist can tell what's happened?

If then the body isn't completely thawed when examined at the scene - then the probe won't be able to enter the body deeply enough to take a liver temperature at all - that's fine too, it's another clue to enable the Doc to figure out what's happened. Yes?

If it takes about 21 hours for complete thawing and I want the ejection to occur at 9.30pm – then how long before that 9.30pm would my killer have to extract the body from the freezer for the ejection to still work?

[FONT=&quot]3 hours? 2 hours – 7 hours?[/FONT]

Shakesbear · Mar 12, 2012

The pub would be subject to Health and Safety Laws - this may help: http://www.gmb-westmids.org.uk/id33.html

I agree with those who have said the temperature is what ever you want it to be. Last summer, in one week, I visited quite a few pubs and due to the vagaries of the weather some had their ac on, some the central heating.

I've also worked in theatres in London - a lot depends on how old the building is, if it is listed and when it was. Some theatres have central heating systems that make Noah's Arc look like a technological marvel. You might also consider that a theatre would have a lot of space that heat would be lost in - the area above and below the stage, the wings and the high ceiling of the auditorium. There would also be quite a few doors and stairways which, when the theatre was operational, would let all sorts of draughts and such in. Some theatres have doors either side of the stage and huge scenery docks to let the scenery be shifted.

jclarkdawe · Mar 12, 2012

FranOnTheEdge said:
Thank you, that certainly helps a good deal.
I don't think a walk-in freezer is going to be possible - I want to keep the field of suspects open to the 8 or 9 people I have for as long as possible, so a freezer large enough to take a body is fine but a walk-in one would be a professional thing - probably available only to a butcher, professional chef or such like - and none of my suspects are that, but almost all have enough money to make owning a large enough freezer a natural thing. The reason I went with a walk-in is because it's the easiest. The problem for a chest freezer is the longest interior dimension has to be at least the same as the height of the victim. You're going to be looking for a commercial chest model that's probably about eight feet long. If the freezer does not have a measurement greater then the height of the victim, you'll have to fold the victim. To remove this fold is going to take longer to thaw then you'd have time to do, and negate the freezing in the rest of the body. Maybe one of the vertical freezers from a grocery store? Lean the body at an angle during freezing? But you do need to decide what your after freezing body is going to need for a shape here.

So the fact that lividity would occur along the back of the body if laid flat, or along the side if placed that way in say, a large chest freezer - is fine for me. So I'll remove that from consideration.

If freezing isn't uniform, that also won't matter - either to me or to my killer so long as it freezes enough to make the ejection work. It's going to be the deep freezing of the joints that you need for the rigidity that you want. If I was doing this, I'd go for longer freezing time just to be safe.

I think he/she'd dress the body before freezing it, doesn't matter if that makes the freezing take longer so long as it's calculable - i.e. so long as my killer can figure that out. I'd figure four days of freezing. Better to be safe then sorry. Four days of freezing would give you a drop in temperature of one degree F. per hour (96 hours). This is probably a conservative figure, but ...

The killer wants the ejection to occur at a specific time, so the killing would be calculated to occur in plenty of time, to allow for freezing. I like people with weird problems that figure in extra time. It makes it so much easier.

The body does not need to be completely thawed, it just needs to be recognisable by the recipient of the ejection process. You're probably going to get some loss in facial features, both from the decomposition and the freezing. The decomposition is why funeral homes apply cosmetics to corpses. But the person should be substantially recognizable. To enhance that, though, what I'd do is take a hair drier and apply to the face and hair to remove the frost. I'd also think about some coloring to bring the body to life, so to speak. As is, you're going to have a very pale corpse.

I'd like one hand to be able to flop over - but that's just me and the way it's written at the moment - the hand flopping into a dish of chocolate and cream, has been mentioned as a good bit, so I'd like to keep it if possible.

So could it be that the limbs are still stiff enough to withstand ejection so as to land where the killer wants it to land, and perhaps to break various muscle fibres due to the force of ejection, so that the hand can flop, and the Pathologist can tell what's happened? It's going to take a while before the Pathologist is going to be able to figure this out. But let's go for a flopping hand. Understand that with a dead body, until significant decomposition has occurred, the range of motion for a joint is substantially the same as when the person is alive.

To get the floppy wrist, I'd take a heating pad, wrap it around the wrist, duct tape it in place, and plug it in. Let cook for two to three hours. Meanwhile, I'd put cooling pads around the rest of the body, to keep it appropriately stiff.

If I wanted the wrist to stay in place for a little bit of the ejection process, I'd use thin plastic or string to hold in place.

If then the body isn't completely thawed when examined at the scene - then the probe won't be able to enter the body deeply enough to take a liver temperature at all - that's fine too, it's another clue to enable the Doc to figure out what's happened. Yes? Beyond the probe not being able to enter, the Pathologist would be able to feel the extreme chill of the body, the lack of mobility in deep tissue, and the stiffness, which would only marginally be like rigor mortis. At the lab, the doctor would be able to see tissue damaged by the freezing process.

If it takes about 21 hours for complete thawing and I want the ejection to occur at 9.30pm – then how long before that 9.30pm would my killer have to extract the body from the freezer for the ejection to still work? I think I'd want some surface melting (soft flabby skin) to increase the ick factor, as well as lowering the projectile's destructive force. (This is going to be very much similar as throwing a rock weighing 150 pounds at someone.) I think I'd start thawing the wrist at about 12:30 PM, at 3:00 PM take the blowdrier to the face and hair, and figure everything is ready at 3:30 PM. I'd then transport to the scene and set up, including a camera with a live internet video feed (If I'm going to this much work, I want to see the results first hand.) This timing would give me several hours to solve any problems and get away. With that time range, I don't think you'd get much deep tissue melting, while the surface would be rather soft and squishy. And probably a bit slimy from the melted ice that would have been on the surface.

[FONT=&quot]3 hours? 2 hours – 7 hours?[/FONT]

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Clueless · Mar 12, 2012

Well, the TOD is often found by the temperature of the liver found in the environment, so anything to do with the liver's temperature would be erased if put into a freezer to cool. Maybe the pathologist can notice a lack in continuity between the liver temperature and the decomposition of the body. that would be pretty important in establishing that the criminal is organized, which implies he is intelligent. The way the rigging of the ejection device is set, such as whether it needs to meet a single requirement or more before it reacts, can establish if the crime was committed by a single person or by a group.

FranOnTheEdge · Mar 18, 2012

Dear Jim Clark-Dawe,

Wonderful, what a nicely informative – detailed reply. Thanks you so very much.

jclarkdawe said:
Best of luck,
The reason I went with a walk-in is because it's the easiest. The problem for a chest freezer is the longest interior dimension has to be at least the same as the height of the victim. You're going to be looking for a commercial chest model that's probably about eight feet long. If the freezer does not have a measurement greater then the height of the victim, you'll have to fold the victim. To remove this fold is going to take longer to thaw then you'd have time to do, and negate the freezing in the rest of the body. Maybe one of the vertical freezers from a grocery store? Lean the body at an angle during freezing? But you do need to decide what your after freezing body is going to need for a shape here.

Yes, okay fine, I can have more than one of the suspects buying or owning large commercial size freezers, that's not a problem, I can write that in somehow. The shape MUST be standing, or the ejection won't sound possible, besides it fits aesthetically.

If freezing isn't uniform, that also won't matter - either to me or to my killer so long as it freezes enough to make the ejection work. It's going to be the deep freezing of the joints that you need for the rigidity that you want. If I was doing this, I'd go for longer freezing time just to be safe.

Okay I'll allow for that, 4 days is fine, after all my killer has known that this killing might be necessary, and had therefore been thinking about it now and then for a few years, although an event did precipitate the decision to go ahead at this specific time. Also the victim is known in the area, has a job etc, and if missing for long would have people, probably the police searching for him before the killer is ready so he/she can't keep the vic' on ice for too long.

I think he/she'd dress the body before freezing it, doesn't matter if that makes the freezing take longer so long as it's calculable - i.e. so long as my killer can figure that out. I'd figure four days of freezing. Better to be safe then sorry. Four days of freezing would give you a drop in temperature of one degree F. per hour (96 hours). This is probably a conservative figure, but ...

The killer wants the ejection to occur at a specific time, so the killing would be calculated to occur in plenty of time, to allow for freezing. I like people with weird problems that figure in extra time. It makes it so much easier.

The body does not need to be completely thawed, it just needs to be recognisable by the recipient of the ejection process. You're probably going to get some loss in facial features, both from the decomposition and the freezing.

Oh, I don't really want that (as writer) anyway the book I have says that freezing will delay and or stop decomp' – as you'd expect if freezing any other kind of meat. Okay I can understand that whole it might not freeze all the way through before some internal decomp took place, but that too would be arrested and the body would thaw as stated from the outside in, so hands, features etc would thaw before the insides did...

I'm having my killer use freezing from their point of view – to get the ejection to work, and from my point of view as writer, so that decomp of the face is as minimal as possible, so I can frighten the person who is targeted with this falling body, cos they see the face – and recognise it. Actually that's desirable from the killer's point of view too.

The decomposition is why funeral homes apply cosmetics to corpses. But the person should be substantially recognizable. To enhance that, though, what I'd do is take a hair drier and apply to the face and hair to remove the frost. I'd also think about some coloring to bring the body to life, so to speak. As is, you're going to have a very pale corpse.

No no, pale doesn't really matter much, just recognisability.

I'd like one hand to be able to flop over - but that's just me and the way it's written at the moment - the hand flopping into a dish of chocolate and cream, has been mentioned as a good bit, so I'd like to keep it if possible.

So could it be that the limbs are still stiff enough to withstand ejection so as to land where the killer wants it to land, and perhaps to break various muscle fibres due to the force of ejection, so that the hand can flop, and the Pathologist can tell what's happened? It's going to take a while before the Pathologist is going to be able to figure this out.

Yes, I realise that, it's why he doesn't want to answer the Time Of Death question at the scene, when the Inspector asks him.

But let's go for a flopping hand. Understand that with a dead body, until significant decomposition has occurred, the range of motion for a joint is substantially the same as when the person is alive.

Yes, I hadn't thought anything else, is that a problem?

To get the floppy wrist, I'd take a heating pad, wrap it around the wrist, duct tape it in place, and plug it in. Let cook for two to three hours. Meanwhile, I'd put cooling pads around the rest of the body, to keep it appropriately stiff.

What??? Why? If the joints are breakable by either the impact with the table on landing, or from compression on the ejection, isn't that enough?
This (hand flopping) is something that happens naturally on landing – not something the killer has engineered, there'd be no point, it would be too hard to ensure that it happened, and once the person below has recognised the face they'll be screaming hysterically – too jolted to notice anything else anyway. No, it's just part of my description of the scene, and when people critiqued it a few weeks ago, (without the freezing part) it was a bit of description they liked, so I wanted to keep it for that reason, so I just need to know if someone reading it would read the new added parts later (the pathologist will explain about the consequences of the freezing and the situation under which it must have occurred (i.e freezer large enough to take a man lying flat, etc etc) he'll tell the Inspector the details later after the P.M.) I just wanted to know if anyone would read the arm ... hang on let me find the actual bit, here it is:

they all sang "Happy Birthday", and as they sang she laughed happily and blew the candles out in one big breath. The table erupted with a cheer and the sounds of the pops and bangs of party streamers.
Then before she could move, there was a rush of air, a dark mass briefly obscured her view and with a crashing almighty thump, the shape of a figure wearing evening dress fell from above and landed on the table obliterating food, drink, cake and all. Her eyes stared uncomprehendingly as one hand flopped open to lie, knuckles down, in a dish of chocolate and cream. The head tilted over to face her, familiar eyes staring at her in dead dullness. She screamed, her siren voice joining everyone else.....

So as long as that bit above is not impossible, then using string to hold the wrist etc, is not needed.

If I wanted the wrist to stay in place for a little bit of the ejection process, I'd use thin plastic or string to hold in place.

I hope this isn't necessary, I don't think my killer would care two jots about that, they'd be wanting to set things up quickly and get away fast to somewhere else.

If then the body isn't completely thawed when examined at the scene - then the probe won't be able to enter the body deeply enough to take a liver temperature at all - that's fine too, it's another clue to enable the Doc to figure out what's happened. Yes? Beyond the probe not being able to enter, the Pathologist would be able to feel the extreme chill of the body, the lack of mobility in deep tissue, and the stiffness, which would only marginally be like rigor mortis. At the lab, the doctor would be able to see tissue damaged by the freezing process.

Yes, yes! Exactly!!!

If it takes about 21 hours for complete thawing and I want the ejection to occur at 9.30pm – then how long before that 9.30pm would my killer have to extract the body from the freezer for the ejection to still work? I think I'd want some surface melting (soft flabby skin) to increase the ick factor,

Well I'd rather not dwell on the ick factor so I'd be just as happy not to have it. I am writing a cosy/procedural murder mystery, so the ick is reserved for the pathologist to look at and the interesting facts are relayed to the police by the Doc. I include a minimal amount of factual detail about the smell of a mortuary, what you'd see there, and the procedures practiced there, but I prefer to write about the people and the strange contraptions, the people's lifestyles, their pasts, the way they live now, their interactions, the places they live, what they feel, how their lives continue in the face of this event, the dangers they do or don't face, what the police do to find out what happened, what the places look like, what spring in Colchester is like, what these people's houses and places of work etc are like...... stuff like that....... I like 'whys', rather than 'how icky' things are, so I'd say that:

"... my examination showed extensive tissue damage due to freezing..."

rather than things like: "...bloating begins in the face where the features swell... the skin begins to develop blisters... marbling occurs... weblike pattern of broken blood vessels in the skin... skin, hair and fingernails slough off... body takes on a greenish black colour... etc etc

I do prefer to know exactly what occurs for my own information, but not to write about it in intense detail.

as well as lowering the projectile's destructive force. (This is going to be very much similar as throwing a rock weighing 150 pounds at someone.)

See what I mean? That's why I need to know these things. Thanks for that, I'll have to make sure that the table he lands on is good and strong.

I think I'd start thawing the wrist at about 12:30 PM, at 3:00 PM take the blowdrier to the face and hair, and figure everything is ready at 3:30 PM. I'd then transport to the scene and set up, including a camera with a live internet video feed (If I'm going to this much work, I want to see the results first hand.) This timing would give me several hours to solve any problems and get away. With that time range, I don't think you'd get much deep tissue melting, while the surface would be rather soft and squishy. And probably a bit slimy from the melted ice that would have been on the surface.

I'm hoping that none of that is necessary. So long as the passage I've quoted above is not impossible – I'll be happy.

My killer has set this up to give time to create an alibi for themselves, so they can see the effects later, they don't need to watch, but they do need time to be at some distance from the event – obviously the police will find out about the freezing and realise that this distances the killer from the scene, so no alibi is going to be cast iron... luckily for the writer... ha ha.

I't actually a real shame I don't need the killer to set up the wrist as you describe, it sounded so nicely complex and detailed. A pity, but there it is. (sigh)

Just so long as the hand flopping into the party food as described in my excerpt above is not impossible, then that's fine.

Here's a pic of the ejection contraption:

As you can see, it's a fairly simple arrangement, and hopefully you can also see why the body needs to be frozen in a standing position for this ejection to work.

jclarkdawe · Mar 18, 2012

FranOnTheEdge said:
Dear Jim Clark-Dawe,

Wonderful, what a nicely informative – detailed reply. Thanks you so very much. You're welcome. It's an interesting problem.

Originally Posted by jclarkdawe Best of luck,
The reason I went with a walk-in is because it's the easiest. The problem for a chest freezer is the longest interior dimension has to be at least the same as the height of the victim. You're going to be looking for a commercial chest model that's probably about eight feet long. If the freezer does not have a measurement greater then the height of the victim, you'll have to fold the victim. To remove this fold is going to take longer to thaw then you'd have time to do, and negate the freezing in the rest of the body. Maybe one of the vertical freezers from a grocery store? Lean the body at an angle during freezing? But you do need to decide what your after freezing body is going to need for a shape here.

Click to expand...

Yes, okay fine, I can have more than one of the suspects buying or owning large commercial size freezers, that's not a problem, I can write that in somehow. The shape MUST be standing, or the ejection won't sound possible, besides it fits aesthetically. Looking at what you want to use to eject this guy, the freezing is going to become more critical. We don't balance very well naturally, and do a bunch of micro-adjustments constantly to stay upright. You're going to need to freeze the guy with legs somewhat separated, with the ankles at a ninety degree to the feet. (And I keep saying guy when I think from the clothing choice we're talking a female.) You might need some sort of stand to help keep her upright. She's going to have a tendency to fall.

If freezing isn't uniform, that also won't matter - either to me or to my killer so long as it freezes enough to make the ejection work. It's going to be the deep freezing of the joints that you need for the rigidity that you want. If I was doing this, I'd go for longer freezing time just to be safe.

Click to expand...

Okay I'll allow for that, 4 days is fine, after all my killer has known that this killing might be necessary, and had therefore been thinking about it now and then for a few years, although an event did precipitate the decision to go ahead at this specific time. Also the victim is known in the area, has a job etc, and if missing for long would have people, probably the police searching for him before the killer is ready so he/she can't keep the vic' on ice for too long. Two days would probably do it, but there's too many variables and too much at stake getting it wrong. I think anyone doing this would be egotistical enough to figure they're going to get away with it and willing to take the time to do it right.

I think he/she'd dress the body before freezing it, doesn't matter if that makes the freezing take longer so long as it's calculable - i.e. so long as my killer can figure that out. I'd figure four days of freezing. Better to be safe then sorry. Four days of freezing would give you a drop in temperature of one degree F. per hour (96 hours). This is probably a conservative figure, but ...

The killer wants the ejection to occur at a specific time, so the killing would be calculated to occur in plenty of time, to allow for freezing. I like people with weird problems that figure in extra time. It makes it so much easier.

The body does not need to be completely thawed, it just needs to be recognisable by the recipient of the ejection process. You're probably going to get some loss in facial features, both from the decomposition and the freezing.

Click to expand...

Oh, I don't really want that (as writer) anyway the book I have says that freezing will delay and or stop decomp' – as you'd expect if freezing any other kind of meat. Okay I can understand that whole it might not freeze all the way through before some internal decomp took place, but that too would be arrested and the body would thaw as stated from the outside in, so hands, features etc would thaw before the insides did...

I'm having my killer use freezing from their point of view – to get the ejection to work, and from my point of view as writer, so that decomp of the face is as minimal as possible, so I can frighten the person who is targeted with this falling body, cos they see the face – and recognise it. Actually that's desirable from the killer's point of view too. Reality is most people aren't as good as recognizing features as they think. But most people don't believe this. But familiar clothing, familiar hair style, and the fact readers don't understand how hard it is to identify a dead person, and you'll be more then fine.

But let's go for a flopping hand. Understand that with a dead body, until significant decomposition has occurred, the range of motion for a joint is substantially the same as when the person is alive.

Click to expand...

Yes, I hadn't thought anything else, is that a problem? A lot of people don't, and so I figured I'd bring it up.

To get the floppy wrist, I'd take a heating pad, wrap it around the wrist, duct tape it in place, and plug it in. Let cook for two to three hours. Meanwhile, I'd put cooling pads around the rest of the body, to keep it appropriately stiff.

Click to expand...

What??? Why? If the joints are breakable by either the impact with the table on landing, or from compression on the ejection, isn't that enough?
This (hand flopping) is something that happens naturally on landing – not something the killer has engineered, there'd be no point, it would be too hard to ensure that it happened, and once the person below has recognised the face they'll be screaming hysterically – too jolted to notice anything else anyway. No, it's just part of my description of the scene, and when people critiqued it a few weeks ago, (without the freezing part) it was a bit of description they liked, so I wanted to keep it for that reason, so I just need to know if someone reading it would read the new added parts later (the pathologist will explain about the consequences of the freezing and the situation under which it must have occurred (i.e freezer large enough to take a man lying flat, etc etc) he'll tell the Inspector the details later after the P.M.) I just wanted to know if anyone would read the arm ... hang on let me find the actual bit, here it is:

they all sang "Happy Birthday", and as they sang she laughed happily and blew the candles out in one big breath. The table erupted with a cheer and the sounds of the pops and bangs of party streamers.
Then before she could move, there was a rush of air, a dark mass briefly obscured her view and with a crashing almighty thump, the shape of a figure wearing evening dress fell from above and landed on the table obliterating food, drink, cake and all. Her eyes stared uncomprehendingly as one hand flopped open to lie, knuckles down, in a dish of chocolate and cream. The head tilted over to face her, familiar eyes staring at her in dead dullness. She screamed, her siren voice joining everyone else.....

So as long as that bit above is not impossible, then using string to hold the wrist etc, is not needed.

Temperature change, either freezing or thawing, happens on the outside and goes gradually inside. It doesn't happen at a uniform rate, such as would be the case with something that has a high degree of heat conductivity (such as a fry pan). This is why frost bite can freeze your fingers and not kill you.

For your plan to work, what needs to be frozen are the various joints, specifically the ankles, the knees, hips, back, and neck. But the elbow and wrist will freeze along with everything else unless you take plans to avoid that. Thawing is going to be a factor of diameter with the fingers and toes thawing relatively quickly, and the hips being the last to thaw.

Frozen objects are incredibly solid. For the wrist to break while frozen is going to take a massive amount of force (try breaking a drumstick on a frozen chicken). It's going to have to have thawed in some way, while the remainder of the body is going to have to stay frozen. And remember that the knees have to be solid to support a lot of weight on them.

So the question in your case is how to arrange this accidentally. The easiest would be to rest the frozen corpse against an aluminum pole, with the arm and wrist being what's resting against the pole. Pole, by accident, is on top of a heating vent, causing the pole to warm up. (Aluminum does a good job of conducting heat.) You're probably going to need the pole because of the inability to balance the body on its own.

The problem I have with this is England doesn't use central heat as much as the US and I'm not sure how many structures have heating vents in their floors. But for a more exotic solution, and actually one that I think is more fun, place the pole in a large pot of water. Place water on hot plate and turn to a moderate temperature. Killer knows that sometimes frozen objects stick to metal, and he doesn't want the body to stick to the pole. So to avoid that, the killer is applying moderate heat to avoid the problem. The fact that the wrist thaws in the process isn't planned on.

If it takes about 21 hours for complete thawing and I want the ejection to occur at 9.30pm – then how long before that 9.30pm would my killer have to extract the body from the freezer for the ejection to still work? I think I'd want some surface melting (soft flabby skin) to increase the ick factor,

Click to expand...

Well I'd rather not dwell on the ick factor so I'd be just as happy not to have it. I am writing a cosy/procedural murder mystery, so the ick is reserved for the pathologist to look at and the interesting facts are relayed to the police by the Doc. I include a minimal amount of factual detail about the smell of a mortuary, what you'd see there, and the procedures practiced there, but I prefer to write about the people and the strange contraptions, the people's lifestyles, their pasts, the way they live now, their interactions, the places they live, what they feel, how their lives continue in the face of this event, the dangers they do or don't face, what the police do to find out what happened, what the places look like, what spring in Colchester is like, what these people's houses and places of work etc are like...... stuff like that....... I like 'whys', rather than 'how icky' things are, so I'd say that:

"... my examination showed extensive tissue damage due to freezing..."

rather than things like: "...bloating begins in the face where the features swell... the skin begins to develop blisters... marbling occurs... weblike pattern of broken blood vessels in the skin... skin, hair and fingernails slough off... body takes on a greenish black colour... etc etc

I do prefer to know exactly what occurs for my own information, but not to write about it in intense detail.

The skin being soft and squishy would be the most notable to anyone touching the body. As I mentioned, the surface would melt faster then the interior.

as well as lowering the projectile's destructive force. (This is going to be very much similar as throwing a rock weighing 150 pounds at someone.)

Click to expand...

See what I mean? That's why I need to know these things. Thanks for that, I'll have to make sure that the table he lands on is good and strong. One of those massive oak ones would be good. And I'd still have the table cracking.

I think I'd start thawing the wrist at about 12:30 PM, at 3:00 PM take the blowdrier to the face and hair, and figure everything is ready at 3:30 PM. I'd then transport to the scene and set up, including a camera with a live internet video feed (If I'm going to this much work, I want to see the results first hand.) This timing would give me several hours to solve any problems and get away. With that time range, I don't think you'd get much deep tissue melting, while the surface would be rather soft and squishy. And probably a bit slimy from the melted ice that would have been on the surface.

Click to expand...

I'm hoping that none of that is necessary. So long as the passage I've quoted above is not impossible – I'll be happy.

My killer has set this up to give time to create an alibi for themselves, so they can see the effects later, they don't need to watch, but they do need time to be at some distance from the event – obviously the police will find out about the freezing and realise that this distances the killer from the scene, so no alibi is going to be cast iron... luckily for the writer... ha ha.

I't actually a real shame I don't need the killer to set up the wrist as you describe, it sounded so nicely complex and detailed. A pity, but there it is. (sigh)

Just so long as the hand flopping into the party food as described in my excerpt above is not impossible, then that's fine.

This was based upon me thinking the killer wanted the flopping wrist, not you wanting it. A lot easier setup if that's not the case.

Here's a pic of the ejection contraption:

As you can see, it's a fairly simple arrangement, and hopefully you can also see why the body needs to be frozen in a standing position for this ejection to work. I'm hoping Hollywood picks up your book, because I'd really like to see this.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

FranOnTheEdge · Mar 18, 2012

Here's a view from outside the box showing the party table below:

As you can see the figure is looking like he's leaning on the rim of the box. In the actual Theatre/Pub there are many mannekins posed like this around the place, up out of the way of the pub patrons but very visible - in the circle and the two boxes. in my description the body is wearing top hat and tails, and in that way he blends in with all the other figures.

I haven't dressed my victim in this garb simply because I can't find that available for free, and I can't (at the moment) model such clothes. (I might be able to do the hat - later when my hands are better, but I never learnt to do clothes at all)

Oh, just saw your reply, my victim is definitely a man, named Matthew, the garb is just the generic stuff the figure came with.
It's 3:am, so I will look at your reply in more detail tomorrow, I've gotta get some kip right now. Night night.

FranOnTheEdge · Mar 19, 2012

Okay Jim Clark-Daw, here's my proper reply to your last post:

Originally Posted by FranOnTheEdge

Dear Jim Clark-Dawe,

Yes, okay fine, I can have more than one of the suspects buying or owning large commercial size freezers, that's not a problem, I can write that in somehow. The shape MUST be standing, or the ejection won't sound possible, besides it fits aesthetically. Looking at what you want to use to eject this guy, the freezing is going to become more critical. We don't balance very well naturally, and do a bunch of micro-adjustments constantly to stay upright. You're going to need to freeze the guy with legs somewhat separated, with the ankles at a ninety degree to the feet. (And I keep saying guy when I think from the clothing choice we're talking a female.) You might need some sort of stand to help keep her upright. She's going to have a tendency to fall.

Clothing is not my choice, it's the default that came with the male figure – in my story the body is dressed in top hat and tails – to thus blend in with the rest of the figures posed about the place. Yes, I'll mention this later... see below.

Okay I'll allow for that, 4 days is fine, after all my killer has known that this killing might be necessary, and had therefore been thinking about it now and then for a few years, although an event did precipitate the decision to go ahead at this specific time. Also the victim is known in the area, has a job etc, and if missing for long would have people, probably the police searching for him before the killer is ready so he/she can't keep the vic' on ice for too long. Two days would probably do it, but there's too many variables and too much at stake getting it wrong. I think anyone doing this would be egotistical enough to figure they're going to get away with it and willing to take the time to do it right.

Yes, and 4 days since last seen is probably about the limit before people start looking for the victim so my killer would probably think that's the most time they have for this stage of operations.

I'm having my killer use freezing from their point of view – to get the ejection to work, and from my point of view as writer, so that decomp of the face is as minimal as possible, so I can frighten the person who is targeted with this falling body, cos they see the face – and recognise it. Actually that's desirable from the killer's point of view too. Reality is most people aren't as good as recognizing features as they think. But most people don't believe this. But familiar clothing, familiar hair style, and the fact readers don't understand how hard it is to identify a dead person, and you'll be more then fine.

The victim below the box – whose party it is – is much more familiar with the features of the dead man than they've as yet let on to anybody else... (which hopefully will help with the believability of her having hysterics when the body lands in front of her).

Quote:
But let's go for a flopping hand. Understand that with a dead body, until significant decomposition has occurred, the range of motion for a joint is substantially the same as when the person is alive.
Yes, I hadn't thought anything else, is that a problem?A lot of people don't, and so I figured I'd bring it up.
As the arrangement of the bones, tendons and muscles etc haven't changed much after death, I'd assumed movement would be the same – after all it is with a chicken. I was only worried about the adverse effect freezing might have on my descriptions.

So as long as that excerpt is not impossible, then using string to hold the wrist etc, is not needed.

Temperature change, either freezing or thawing, happens on the outside and goes gradually inside. It doesn't happen at a uniform rate, such as would be the case with something that has a high degree of heat conductivity (such as a fry pan). This is why frost bite can freeze your fingers and not kill you.

Yes. I'm with you there.

For your plan to work, what needs to be frozen are the various joints, (exactly) specifically the ankles, the knees, hips, back, and neck. But the elbow and wrist will freeze along with everything else unless you take plans to avoid that. Thawing is going to be a factor of diameter with the fingers and toes thawing relatively quickly, and the hips being the last to thaw.

Good, that sounds fine.

Frozen objects are incredibly solid. For the wrist to break while frozen is going to take a massive amount of force (try breaking a drumstick on a frozen chicken). It's going to have to have thawed in some way, while the remainder of the body is going to have to stay frozen. And remember that the knees have to be solid to support a lot of weight on them.

So the question in your case is how to arrange this accidentally. The easiest would be to rest the frozen corpse against an aluminum pole, Aha!!!

I already have the body being propped in place with a broom, now I'd envisioned this broom as a wooden handled one – but aluminium is not impossible, and I'm happy to change that bit of the description of what SOCO tells the Inspector – (and what he sees on entering the box, as well of course) about the broom.

with the arm and wrist being what's resting against the pole. Pole, by accident, is on top of a heating vent, causing the pole to warm up. (Aluminum does a good job of conducting heat.) You're probably going to need the pole because of the inability to balance the body on its own.

Yeah, I already thought of that (see above).

The problem I have with this is England doesn't use central heat as much as the US and I'm not sure how many structures have heating vents in their floors. But for a more exotic solution, and actually one that I think is more fun, place the pole in a large pot of water. Place water on hot plate and turn to a moderate temperature. Killer knows that sometimes frozen objects stick to metal, and he doesn't want the body to stick to the pole.

Yes.... that's a good thought.

So to avoid that, the killer is applying moderate heat to avoid the problem. The fact that the wrist thaws in the process isn't planned on.

Only, now the killer needs to have two hotplate things in there with the body... that's sounds a bit.... well, I'm not sure about it, that's all. It sounds sort of clumsy to me... if there was some way to use the twin hotplates I already have in there on the teasmaid, for this warming of the aluminium broom handle and for the setting off the ejection thing... Well that would be much more pleasing, more elegant a solution.

But at the moment the broom is supporting the body in position.
Here's a bit of the description of that part that I have at the moment:

He let the broom lean back against the balustrade, and looked down at the scrape marks on the floor around the legs of the table. He moved the table back towards the balustrade so that the legs lined up with where the scrape marks began. Then he moved the broom so that the handle near the tip was positioned against the bottom of the table, if jammed there it would have been held in place by the low shelf which held the legs together at that point.

This is the type of table I mean:

I'm sorry you can't see the lower shelf - but at the time I took this shot, I wasn't thinking about the table, and this is only 1 or two pics of this table I have - the other has the table blocked by a cardigan draped over a chair.

I like 'whys', rather than 'how icky' things are, so I'd say that:

"... my examination showed extensive tissue damage due to freezing..."

rather than things like: "...bloating begins in the face where the features swell... the skin begins to develop blisters... marbling occurs... weblike pattern of broken blood vessels in the skin... skin, hair and fingernails slough off... body takes on a greenish black colour... etc etc

I do prefer to know exactly what occurs for my own information, but not to write about it in intense detail.

The skin being soft and squishy would be the most notable to anyone touching the body.

Yeah, I know, I had described it as – "Rather like touching the dried skin of an old blancmange." In my first story in this series. How acurate that is I didn't know when I wrote it but I liked the imagery.

As I mentioned, the surface would melt faster then the interior.
Quote:
as well as lowering the projectile's destructive force. (This is going to be very much similar as throwing a rock weighing 150 pounds at someone.)
See what I mean? That's why I need to know these things. Thanks for that, I'll have to make sure that the table he lands on is good and strong. One of those massive oak ones would be good. And I'd still have the table cracking.

Right, will do.

Just so long as the hand flopping into the party food as described in my excerpt above is not impossible, then that's fine.

This was based upon me thinking the killer wanted the flopping wrist, not you wanting it. A lot easier setup if that's not the case.

Good. That's what I thought.

(Re pic of ejection contraption)
As you can see, it's a fairly simple arrangement, and hopefully you can also see why the body needs to be frozen in a standing position for this ejection to work. I'm hoping Hollywood picks up your book, because I'd really like to see this.

ROFLMAO! I laughed and laughed when I read this bit, it being so very unlikely.
1st, such things don't happen to me, and
2nd, even if it did, Hollywood usually changes things like this so much that they become unrecognisable, Pinewood sounds a bit more likely, at least it's in the UK. Lol.
But thanks very much for the notion, I'll dream about that tonight....

Fran

FranOnTheEdge · Mar 25, 2012

You know there are such vents in trains, I don't see why they couldn't be in a theatre, but I'm not sure how to get the aluminium broom handle to connect to such a vent in the wall, when the broom is meant to be propping the body in place, thus:

jclarkdawe · Mar 25, 2012

Flip broom around. I was thinking a push broom, with a wide head. Place the head against the ground and the handle against the victim.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

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