In Which Kirk Cameron Shocks No One and Angers Many

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Rhoda Nightingale

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I was torn about whether to post this here or in the politics section. I'll go with here for now, until/unless a mod tells me to shift it elsewhere. I'm also so pissed right now I can barely think straight, so if any of this winds up veering off the bounds of civil conversation, please let me know and I'll try to rein it in.

Here's what happened.

You remember this kid? He used to be on Growing Pains? I never saw it on the air--watched reruns during my Leo DiCaprio phase in high school, during the (one, maybe two?) seasons he was on.

Doesn't matter. Now, he's still an actor, but also a FAR right wing conservative evangelical Christian who starred in the Left Behind movies and is also spouting anti-gay diatribe, much to the chagrin of everyone who isn't also a FAR right wing conservative Christian.

The phrase being kicked to the curb is his statement that homosexuality is "unnatural" and "I think that it's detrimental and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization."

First, let's talk about Cameron's unfortunate phrasing. The way he's talking about "homosexuality," it seems as if it's a particular sexual act which he doesn't approve of, and I suspect this is the case for most narrow-minded folks who continue, for whatever reason, to think of all non-straight people as moral deviants who have kinky sex all the time. What I imagine he means when he says "homosexuality" is actually "sodomy" or something similar. Not simply the tendency of homosexuals to feel a romantic or sexual attraction to people of their same gender, regardless of what they do about that attraction, which is a separate thing.

Let me point out two things here: One, sodomy is not exclusive to homosexuals--straight folks do it too, whether Cameron chooses to acknowledge that or not; Two, not all homosexuals have the butt-secks. They really don't. Not that it's any of Cameron's business what consenting adults do in their own homes anyway, but this is a painfully familiar case of Critical Research Failure on the part of disapproving conservatives everywhere. He's assuming here that homosexual means something it doesn't, and carries on with this diatribe without pausing to ask real life LGBT people what their private lives are actually like.

As I've said before, here and elsewhere, I'm bisexual, and also a virgin. In every conceivable sense of the word. I suspect that in Cameron's mind and others' like his, these are two states of being which allegedy cannot coexist. I am here to reiterate, once again, that that's complete and utter bullshit.

Moving on--I'm seeing a lot of chatter in the comments saying that the GLAAD folks calling Cameron on the carpet on this are trying to supress his right to free speech. Look, no one's saying Cameron doesn't have a constitutional right to behave like a bigoted asshole. He does. I see people daily who exercise that same right. Calling him out on it is not the same as telling him he shouldn't say anything. Say whatever the hell you want, Cameron. But rest assured that others who feel differently--and there are a lot of us, and we're not happy--will exercise that same right in response. And you probably won't like what we have to say either.

My third point is about the separation of church and state that seems to have gone AWOL in this country as of late. Putting aside for a moment this innaccurate, but still widely embraced, idea that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, none of the Bible's laws should apply to you if you're not Christian. NONE. Speaking as a non-Christian, there are many parts of the Bible that I happen to agree with and think are worth studying and applying to my day-to-day life. The part about loving your neighbor as yourself, for example. And not stealing, lying or cheating. And the Golden Rule, which is rephrased and repeated in most, if not all, religions everywhere. That said, I'm still not Christian, and I don't appreciate someone trying to dictate how I should live my life based on how he's decided to live his.

I saw this quote on LiveJournal earlier this week, which I think sums it all up perfectly: "Claiming that someone else’s marriage is against your religion is like being angry at someone for eating a donut because you’re on a diet." Damn right.

Furthermore, let's not forget that sexuality is neither a "lifestyle" nor a "choice." It is a state of being, rather like being left-handed or born with blue eyes. Using the word "lifestyle" in connection with sexuality implies that all people of a certain sexuality have identical values, ethics, and habits, and that's simply not that case--not at all. There are straight people who are into S&M, who abstain from sex until marriage, who cheat on their partners, who "swing," who remain celibate all their lives--all of these things apply to the rest of us too. There is no one way to be gay. Also, saying an orientation is a "choice" implies that everyone is actually born with NO orientation whatsoever--or else pansexual, I guess--and eventually, perhaps sometime during puberty, makes a conscious decision to only pursue relationships with X person. I think we can all agree that's ridiculous.

Please understand--I know that not all conservative Christians behave this way or agree with Cameron. I know that. But he's acting as a mouthpiece for an entire faith, and enough of them agree with him--loudly, militantly--that whatever rational voices exist in that religious/political corner are getting drowned out. People, this has been an US vs. THEM conversation for far too long. It shouldn't be a case of The Gays and Liberals doing battle with the Conservatives and Straights. We are not enemies. If you lean conservative and you think Cameron's full of it, don't let him speak for you. This world is getting way too small for this kind of thing to go unchallenged, or only challenged by the people we've come to expect it from.
 

Kitty27

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He can have a stadium full of seats with this mess.

It never ceases to amaze me how people in this particular group are SO obsessed with gay folks business and lives. It is NOT their concern. They don't follow one of the main themes of their religion aka "judge not,lest ye be judged"

I think men who constantly go in on gay folks are suspect and I always wait for them to be caught feeling up a dude or soliciting hookers for sex. It almost NEVER fails with these types. I've seen this before with Eddie Long and his rabid rants against homosexuality.

I think respect is required here.You don't have to agree as it's highly unlikely gay folks give any kind of damn if you do or don't, but you can respect that another person has the right to live as he or she sees fit and also to love whomever they wish. It is NOT anyone's right to sit in moral judgment of other people,especially about something as personal as sexuality.
 

backslashbaby

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I didn't know he was supposed to speak for me (as a religious person, not a conservative)! I'm glad I caught the show, then! And I definitely stand up and say I think he's full of it, although it's his business what he wants to believe.

I took it as some actor telling his personal beliefs, which doesn't get much of an eyebrow raise from me. I certainly hope he's not some influential role model, although I guess I see how some folks do feel that way about celebrity.

I waited on his table for one long, long night way back in the day. He had taken his new in-laws out for a nice meal. He was young (so was I) and so amazingly unhip ;) He kept expecting me to say something about who he was, lol. I didn't.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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If you look closely at the sacred texts, most religions lay down their practices to be practiced on oneself, not on others. It's supposed to be "I" have sinned against god, not "you" or worse, "they." "I shall not lust in my heart," not "I must persecute those who appear to lust." And "I shall have no other gods before thee," not "nobody can worship other gods." (This last one gets misinterpreted a lot)

Rather a lot of them have a variant of "judge not lest ye be judged."

Local folk traditions may shove organised homophobia, or misogyny, or racism, or evangelism and forced conversion on top of these tenets, but at root most religions teach self-discipline, not others'-discipline. They all have provisions for tolerance and compassion.

Kirk Cameron is speaking folly and practicing vice. He is not rightly practicing his religion. And he's being a self-righteous creep.
 

maxmordon

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Lot of good this crap has done for his career. Loser. :p

Well, he has small but devoted fans thanks to his appearance on conservative media like that firefighter movie, the Left Behind flicks or that show he does with Ned Flanders Ray Comfort. He's like the Harrison Ford of Christian right media.

Though I get he doesn't much ass out of it. So yeah, Loser.

Seriously, though. This makes me think of George Santamaraya's definition of a fanatic: A person who doubles effort after missing the target.
 

absitinvidia

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Although I disagree with almost everything KC had to say on the issue (obviously), I believe wholeheartedly in his right to say it.

What I object to is his follow-up statement against people who objected to his first statement. He has the moral and legal right to articulate his beliefs; others have the same rights to publicly denounce them. He does NOT have the right to declare a controversial opinion and not get blasted for it.

Suck it up, Kirk ol' buddy. You think you have it bad? Trying being gay in a world full of people like you.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Although I disagree with almost everything KC had to say on the issue (obviously), I believe wholeheartedly in his right to say it.

What I object to is his follow-up statement against people who objected to his first statement. He has the moral and legal right to articulate his beliefs; others have the same rights to publicly denounce them. He does NOT have the right to declare a controversial opinion and not get blasted for it.

Suck it up, Kirk ol' buddy. You think you have it bad? Trying being gay in a world full of people like you.

This!

I can't stand the bullying attitude, "I get to say this horrible stuff about you, but if you complain you're being offensive to my beliefs."
 

Shadow Dragon

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I used to watch his show on Nick at Night when I was younger. It's a shame he's turned out to be so right wing.

I can honestly say his comments don't surprise me at all. The sad part is that there are many people that share his views.
 

regdog

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From the guy who once called the producers of Growing Pains pornographers, his recent open mouthed brain fart is hardly a surprise. Pathetic.
 

CharacterInWhite

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Although I disagree with almost everything KC had to say on the issue (obviously), I believe wholeheartedly in his right to say it.

What I object to is his follow-up statement against people who objected to his first statement. He has the moral and legal right to articulate his beliefs; others have the same rights to publicly denounce them. He does NOT have the right to declare a controversial opinion and not get blasted for it.

Suck it up, Kirk ol' buddy. You think you have it bad? Trying being gay in a world full of people like you.

I'd like to point out that his vitriolic dollop is hurtful, even if you aren't the target of his bigotry. :p
 

BenPanced

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I thought I'd read somewhere he's even tried the hoary "but some of my best friends are________!" chestnut but I have a hard time believing any of his QUILTBAG friends would stick around after his little rant. I know I wouldn't.
 

maxmordon

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I honestly have no idea who this is.

I opened the thread because I thought it would be related to David Cameron.

He's a former child star from a bland sitcom from the early 90's turned a Christian conservative and creationist spokesperson starring action Christian films such as the Left-Behind series (about a bunch of people dealing with the Anti-Christ post-rapture), Fireproof (about a fireman with a porn addiction and a troublesome marriage) and more recently, Monumental: In Search of America's Natural Treasure. A documentary that the title speaks for itself.

I only know about him because a local network here was bought by a conservative Evangelical church and Sunday is Kirk Cameron's movie marathon, plus some weird religious films starring Mr. T and Gary Busey and Kirk Cameron harrasing people with awkward questions along Ned Flanders on Ways of the Master.

Oh yeah, and according to Kirk Cameron, Bananas are a proof that there's no evolution.
 

backslashbaby

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I had no idea he was in the public sphere at all any more.

Max, is the evangelical church big with any groups in Venezuela, or is that channel kind of obscure, would you say?

This sounds so odd: 'some weird religious films starring Mr. T and Gary Busey and Kirk Cameron harrasing people with awkward question'! Mr T?!!

That probably means Kirk is famous in Africa, too. My only good evangelical friend (that I know of) is Kenyan. I hadn't thought of religious cable channels.
 

maxmordon

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It's kind of obscure I was recently checking out their website and apparently they were a local network partially bought and made national, but still a UHF channel, by a Dominican Ministry called Integridad y Sabiduría that posts articles on their website with titles like: Homosexuality: Choice or Illness? and videos explaining things like why Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics are not truly Christian. Apparently the true mastermind behind this is Dr. Miguel Núñez, a medical doctor graduated from some shady Southern Baptist institute in Jacksonville, Florida with strong ties with the Dominican government. Funny the things you find out 20 minutes on Google.

Kirk Cameron show is another thing, Way of the Master. Mr. T and Gary Busey (and according to Wikipedia, Howie Mandel!) movies is part of the Apocalypse series. A movie series that's essentially Left Behind but without the money nor the writing. Busey plays a cop who has been in coma for years until he wakes up and discovers his wife has raptured and world is now controlled by a one world government led by the Anti-Christ.
 

maxmordon

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To be honest, due to the overwhelming presence Catholic Church has in Venezuela (and most, if not all of Latin America in different degrees) one tend to pile up different denominations so one tend to say "Evangelical" to denominate all these charismatic and revival groups spawn from the US: Mormons, Adventists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Jehova's Witnesses, actual Evangelicals, etc. This group, for example, seems to have their roots on Southern Baptist Convention as far I can see.

My mistake if I offended anyone.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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He's a former child star from a bland sitcom from the early 90's

I think you're being far too charitable here Max.

"Bland" doesn't even begin describe that monument to insipid banality that was "Growing Pains.
 

nevillenox

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I... have no idea who this guy is.

I think I'll continue ignoring his existence.
 

Celia Cyanide

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Although I disagree with almost everything KC had to say on the issue (obviously), I believe wholeheartedly in his right to say it.

What I object to is his follow-up statement against people who objected to his first statement. He has the moral and legal right to articulate his beliefs; others have the same rights to publicly denounce them. He does NOT have the right to declare a controversial opinion and not get blasted for it.

Exactly! Freedom of speech does not mean no one gets to tell you you're wrong!
 

Devil Ledbetter

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"Free speech" only means the government isn't supposed to lock you up for speaking your mind. It doesn't guarantee you a broadcast channel, a venue to speak, an audience, heads bobbing in agreement or protection from criticism.

I am so tired of these idiots hate-mongering in the media then whining about their speech rights when they're criticized. Cameron was a two-bit TV actor on an all-but-forgotten sitcom, and now he's a has-been with a bible hard-on that would make a stale Cheeto seem sexy.
 

CaroGirl

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I believe in free speech. This dude is misguided but entitled to his opinion and to express it. He also has to live with the backlash and consequences because free speech goes both ways.

Now everyone knows who he is and what he believes, and it's clearer than ever that he holds a minority opinion. That alone makes the dialogue worth it.

Alan Thicke is cool.
 

DancingMaenid

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I think you're being far too charitable here Max.

"Bland" doesn't even begin describe that monument to insipid banality that was "Growing Pains.

I can never even remember the title of the show...

In any case, I have a hard time caring too much about KC because, frankly, he seems like a joke, to me. It's a little scary to think that he might have some influence, though.
 
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